"Docklands" WTF??

lostexpectation

are you talking about the building with decorative doorway, that was destroyed, that church beside croke park wasn't protected either do you think it was right to drive a jcb through it peewee man?

Wishbone Ash

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

after seeing the likes of the liffey trust, Rathbornes Candle factory, Cahills printers, wiggins teape etc all either burn down or be knocked down, looks like they are not for the benefit of the "history" of the area... Knocking down historic building whether they be "protected" or not and replacing them with concrete and glass box's ain't adding to the area at all. now thats my opinion

But what was demolished to build Rathbournes, Cahills, Wiggins Teape etc? Life goes on and 'progress' is made whether we like it or not.

If Chichester House was protected, we wouldn't have the Parliament House (BOI) on College Green. If Cork House was protected, we may never have had the Royal Exhange. The Kings Inns were demolished to build the Four Courts and a monastery where Trinity College now stands.

Wishbone Ash

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

These were built and finished by 2006 and went on the market for 480k for a one bedroom in April 06

They were still under construction in 2007!

Earth Worm Jim

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

But what was demolished to build Rathbournes, Cahills, Wiggins Teape etc? Life goes on and 'progress' is made whether we like it or not.

If Chichester House was protected, we wouldn't have the Parliament House (BOI) on College Green. If Cork House was protected, we may never have had the Royal Exhange. The Kings Inns were demolished to build the Four Courts and a monastery where Trinity College now stands.

1865 - East Wall Road (Dublin Petroleum Stores): In the 1860's John G Rathborne purchased a site on Dublin's North Lotts, which had been earmarked for a Cattle Market. The proposal never got off the ground and the Cattle Market was relocated from Smithfield to Aughrim Street/ Prussia Street. John G. constructed an extensive storage facility on the East Wall Road called "the Dublin Petroleum Stores". He also registered the name John G. Rathborne Limited with the Companies Office.

The last member of the Rathborne dynasty to run the factory was Henry Burnley Rathborne.
1925 - East Wall Road: In 1925 the firm re-located to its East Wall Road site, where a new factory was constructed and completed in March of that year. Shell kept on the manager and office manager of Henry B. Rathborne, and they remained with the firm until after the Second World War, Stanley Kay Sloan retiring in 1945 and Dermot Reilly Sidford retiring in 1946.

The Wiggins Teape building was built in 1931 for the Gallaher tobacco group. The EIS that accompanies the planning application states that "a number of similar buildings were built in Dublin at this time, due to the operation of protective tariffs on tobacco [John Player & Son in Glasnevin, H D Wills on the South Circular Road]... It was originally named Virginia House, but the changing economic conditions of the 1930s meant a transfer of ownership to Fry Cadbury, who renamed it Alexanda House... The building was acquired by Wiggins Teape in 1965 and renamed Gateway House."

The facade to East Wall Road includes one of the earliest known uses here of reconstituted stone, and for that reason alone would be of importance. But Stevenson was also steeped in classical architecture and this is evident in the skillful massing, composition and detail of the facade - the design of which, it appears, may even have been ordered by the use of regulating lines or proportioning systems.

Most of the land these building were built on was reclaimed land, and destined for cattle yards etc, any building was an improvement to that, these buildings replacing them now ain't an improvement?

Earth Worm Jim

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

They were still under construction in 2007!

Them apartments were finished in april 06.... and a mysterious fire in 07 brought the builders back in... I know this for a fact........

Wishbone Ash

Are these not the apartments in question - taken from the end of New Wapping Street?

Earth Worm Jim

Yes thats them.......... them apartments were on the market in 06, I personaly viewed one........ I had to live with that site, the builders for many years, it was a trailer yard before that and a Protestant church (Saint Barnabases(sp) church) and graveyard before that, demolished over 30 odd yr back (another historical building)...

If you are getting at why the building looks like its under construction in your pic, well the main (high building) was to be 8 storeys (thats what the first planning application was) and was completed in early 06 (maybe even earlier) and then it went to 9/10/11 and it may even be 12 or 13 storeys now.. It still looks like it needs finishing/snagging but they were available to purchase and view in april 06......

Peewee_lane

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

But what was demolished to build Rathbournes, Cahills, Wiggins Teape etc? Life goes on and 'progress' is made whether we like it or not.

If Chichester House was protected, we wouldn't have the Parliament House (BOI) on College Green. If Cork House was protected, we may never have had the Royal Exhange. The Kings Inns were demolished to build the Four Courts and a monastery where Trinity College now stands.

Agreed! Life goes on... this is an enterprise centre, not a lapdancing club or firearms deppo...

lostexpectation wrote: »

are you talking about the building with decorative doorway, that was destroyed, that church beside croke park wasn't protected either do you think it was right to drive a jcb through it peewee man?

Eh? JCB? I never said anything to that extent or whether or not it actually is right to demolish a building because it looks pretty or pleases the locals.

I inquired this morning in work about the original building and found that it had a decorative stone image on the front, but that every brick from the place was torn down individually and sent to a salvage yard, so no JCB was driven through at high speed and the original stone was used again. (The back of the building went on fire and there was a section to the front that was okay, but unsafe).

I know nothing about a church beside Croke Park..

My last say on all of this is....meh.

Wishbone Ash

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

well the main (high building) was to be 8 storeys (thats what the first planning application was) and was completed in early 06 (maybe even earlier) and then in went to 9/10/11 and it may even be 12 or 13 storeys now.. It still looks like it needs finishing/snagging but they were available to purchase and view in april 06......

Ah, that explains it as that picture was taken on the 26th October 2007 at 10.26am.

Peewee_lane

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

So Piano Bars, Performance Arts Centres and spar shops is the future of the docklands??

And as for moving with the times, if you take a walk round the Docklands you can see most "sites" are stagnent, shut, closed not VIBRANT new communities.. So we are not moving at all, might even be going backwards at this stage........

But, what do you think about the forthcoming O2 development, Hotel, shopping with a large Dunnes Stores, luas line? For or against? Surely these are good additions? The luas line will increase people traffic too.

Piano Bars, Preformance Art Centres and Spar Shops are just additions, they surely are not the "future(!)" of the docklands! Lmao! But the NPAS surely gives all the kids a chance to do singing, dancing and drama?

Im interested in what would you like to see, do you not want the Spar, etc?

Wishbone Ash

Peewee_lane wrote: »

I know nothing about a church beside Croke Park..

lostexpectation is referring to the demolition of a (Methodist?) church near Croke Park last year. DCC had omitted to 'list' it even though it would have merited 'listing'. There was a bit of controversy about it and a thread here at the time.

Earth Worm Jim

Peewee_lane wrote: »

Agreed! Life goes on... this is an enterprise centre, not a lapdancing club or firearms deppo...



Eh? JCB? I never said anything to that extent or whether or not it actually is right to demolish a building because it looks pretty or pleases the locals.

I inquired this morning in work about the original building and found that it had a decorative stone image on the front, but that every brick from the place was torn down individually and sent to a salvage yard, so no JCB was driven through at high speed and the original stone was used again. (The back of the building went on fire and there was a section to the front that was okay, but unsafe).

I know nothing about a church beside Croke Park..

My last say on all of this is....meh.

The bakery was at the front of the building, where the fire was?? And if it was just a warehouse with stagnent water in the basement why would they

every brick from the place was torn down individually and sent to a salvage yard

Also that stagnent water came from the tunnels that are under the quays, infact they go under the liffey, as far as dublin castle, custom house and maybe even the pheonix park, now to me thats historical..

Peewee_lane

No, when the building was purchased originally, it was a warehouse, old and the basement had to be pumped out because of the water.

They then turned it into the Liffey Trust Centre, due to the fact that there was 75% unemployment in the area at the time. They helped people from the area develop business plans, companies, etc, all free of charge.

They are still doing this, they just added a bar in on the corner. The NPAS moved in on top to brand new studios and offices, a butchers who was in the original building before the fire took a slot again and a business from Raheny, Walmer Holistic College took a slot too.

Its not about moving forward and creating a cement image, its still all about promoting employment and business in the area, which they sought to do in 1984.

Earth Worm Jim

Peewee_lane wrote: »

No, when the building was purchased originally, it was a warehouse, old and the basement had to be pumped out because of the water.

They then turned it into the Liffey Trust Centre, due to the fact that there was 75% unemployment in the area at the time. They helped people from the area develop business plans, companies, etc, all free of charge.

They are still doing this, they just added a bar in on the corner. The NPAS moved in on top to brand new studios and offices, a butchers who was in the original building before the fire took a slot again and a business from Raheny, Walmer Holistic College took a slot too.

Its not about moving forward and creating a cement image, its still all about promoting employment and business in the area, which they sought to do in 1984.

Don't talk to me about creating employment in the area, NONE of them sites even offer LOCAL EMPLOYMENT, even though they had a 20% local employment clause in the planning permission.. Infact the local communities had to picket the DDDA and some of these sites to stress that fact...

Also I attended lots of these "community consultations" where we we told there would be jobs for everyone, like cleaning, labouring and security... Not a thing about office jobs in these big companies opening these massive buildings.. I know 15 local lads who have trades that are in Austrailia now, and I know lots of locals that have degree's and these "Consultants" offer cleaning work or security jobs...

Could you name any local people who have benefited from the New or Old Liffey Trust?? Who from the locality owns any of these businesses, or even employed by them?? And I know what it was supposed to be for and went to all the meetings... And its not for free, the tax payer pays for it AFAIK..

Peewee_lane

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

Could you name any local people who have benefited from the New or Old Liffey Trust?? Who from the locality owns any of these businesses, or even employed by them??

Of course I can! We've two lads in from the area, one from Sheriff Street and one from East Wall, ones managing and the other is our electrician. They're just off the top of my head.

Theres a coffee shop opening soon, maybe some young girls might take a full time or part time job.

You come across as really irrate and argumentative. Its hard to have a chat online when someones being so negative back. This all isnt meant to be getting under your skin on purpose. I understand you're unhappy with the apartments but the Liffey Trust is a positive entity to the area.

Earth Worm Jim

Peewee_lane wrote: »

Of course I can! We've two lads in from the area, one from Sheriff Street and one from East Wall, ones managing and the other is our electrician. They're just off the top of my head.

Theres a coffee shop opening soon, maybe some young girls might take a full time or part time job.

You come across as really irrate and argumentative. Its hard to have a chat online when someones being so negative back. This all isnt meant to be getting under your skin on purpose. I understand you're unhappy with the apartments but the Liffey Trust is a positive entity to the area.

You seem to know the whole plan for the area, do you??

You are far off the mark, I live and work with in the community and have done for a long time, calling me irrate or hard to talk to is not enforcing your view...
I have no problem with the apartments or the liffey trust at all; I just live in the real world and know what’s what.....

You mention 2 people who work there.... Now this is in an area that is supposed to have over 90,000 people working in the area, I know what I am talking about, maybe you should look at the bigger picture and not just what you envisage, you may see some utopia around the area but in reality its very far from it... the PR pitches of these NEW developments are NOTHING like what’s the reality of it.. And that’s coming from someone who knows....

Peewee_lane

I see your point now...what exactly is the delay then in the other new developments? Are you getting any answers at all from them?

Anyways, I know the plan because I work there.

Earth Worm Jim

Are we gettin answers NO.........

Do you know the plan, NO I doubt it as the planners DON'T know the plan, and that a fact, I have seen many and each is pie in the sky as far as I can see, liffey islands, moates, Parisian Walkways, rooftop alotments, etc etc I could go on....... No mention of schools, community centres, health centres, day care centre, play grounds etc etc..

So you can see as a local why we would have a difference of opinions of whats really happening as oppose to what we were promised..

Infact what the new developers PR companies propose when advertising their projects is totaly different to what we were consulted on and promised, its looking like this whole DOCKLANDS thing has just stopped and won't ever be the envisiaged MASTER PLAN for Dublin.. If this is what the future holds, I think we would be better off with the OLD derelict industrial area over the NEW ghost town..

Mingey

Surely the NPAS provides something for the local community? Do the local kids go there?

I can see both sides of this argument, but in all fairness the city is growing, the docklands have remained untouched for a long time. It was bound to happen sooner or later. If anything, at least it will increase your property value in years to come. Especially if you own a 3 bedroom house with front back gardens. Progress is slow at the moment which is understandable but not every has ceased to a shell. The Point Village and Luas will all be ready in 1-2 years, I bet you won't be complaining when they are up & running.

Earth Worm Jim

Mingey wrote: »

Surely the NPAS provides something for the local community? Do the local kids go there?

I can see both sides of this argument, but in all fairness the city is growing, the docklands have remained untouched for a long time. It was bound to happen sooner or later. If anything, at least it will increase your property value in years to come. Especially if you own a 3 bedroom house with front back gardens. Progress is slow at the moment which is understandable but not every has ceased to a shell. The Point Village and Luas will all be ready in 1-2 years, I bet you won't be complaining when they are up & running.

I am not argueing with anyone, just pointing it out from a locals side...

I am all for redevelopment and new amienities, business, jobs etc..

The Docklands masterplan has become a BIG WHITE ELEPHANT at the moment, Not a lot is going on at all... It years behind track and looks as if it will never be what was originaly envisaged... Even the point village, some of that may be in trouble, Dunnes may even pull out of the project and they are the anchor store for the point village....

And if you mean complaining about most developers not abiding by the planning guidelines in area's like local employment (20%), the major businesses in the area Not employing any/many local people, school building projects being yrs behind schedual (even in doubt), noise and dirt polution, and some with a total disregard for people already living in the area.. I am complaining but would you rather I just sit back and say nothing...

As for the value of my home, thats only a number, maybe if we all regarded our houses/apartments as homes rather than investments, the country would not be in the state its in today.....

Mingey

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

As for the value of my home, thats only a number, maybe if we all regarded our houses/apartments as homes rather than investments, the country would not be in the state its in today.....

Well I agree with that, but you surely can't expect your housing estate to remain a leafy little suburb forever when it is only a literal stones throw from the city centre?
Cities are built for employing large volumes of people. It's a shame that the small number of long term Dublin 3 residents feel like like their community is being torn apart in the name of capital, but it is like this unfortunatley the world over. I think it is good that you are trying to do all you can to get what was promised, there should be more people like you trying to have a voice, but I think you will always have to make compromises in situations like these.

At least you arent being made clear off to Finglas or somewhere while your houses get demolished for flats

Earth Worm Jim

Mingey wrote: »

Well I agree with that, but you surely can't expect your housing estate to remain a leafy little suburb forever when it is only a literal stones throw from the city centre?
Cities are built for employing large volumes of people. It's a shame that the small number of long term Dublin 3 residents feel like like their community is being torn apart in the name of capital, but it is like this unfortunatley the world over. I think it is good that you are trying to do all you can to get what was promised, there should be more people like you trying to have a voice, but I think you will always have to make compromises in situations like these.

At least you arent being made clear off to Finglas or somewhere while your houses get demolished for flats

The area we are talking bout would be more dublin 1 than dublin 3...

And as I have said before I am all for development and improvement of the Docklands, and why is it a shame people want to see it being done right, its a community not a green or brown field site, which some people overlook, and its not a minority that would have similar views to myself, and people moving into the dockland would be part of the community too (would they not)..

And the "at least you are not being made clear off to finglas" remark is sort of hypocrytical, is it not? I own my home and plan on staying here, not matter what happens, and I would have no problem living in Finglas too, infact I would prefer a home(house) in finglas over a fancy apartment in a so called trendy area but thats just my opininon...... the

At least you arent being made clear off to Finglas or somewhere while your houses get demolished for flats

quote sounds like your saying lets feck all the settled community out and move a better class of people in, its views like that that would probably agrieve a local, it like your saying put up or feck off to the people living there already, like your saying count your self lucky we don't evict you? I own my home and have been here for a long time, you think I should just sit back and let some developer or blow in tell me whats going to happen to my community.....

And I actualy look forward to seeing lots of new additions to the community but looking at lots of empty apartments, stalled building projects does not inspire confidence in the future of the Masterplan.....

waxon-waxoff

Earth worm jim needs to live in the real world. Most people dont like their home area to change but its a fact of life. What was so good about the crumbling warehouses that were originally there anyway.

Saying that nobody from the local area got any benefit from the development is not true. Local people sold property to the developers. If no locals got jobs there, thats their own fault. There is no policy of discriminating against local residents. If the trades people looked for work off the contractors they have as much chance as anybody else. If anybody with suitable qualifications looked for work in the IFSC they have the same chance as anyone else.

Earth Worm Jim

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

Earth worm jim needs to live in the real world. Most people dont like their home area to change but its a fact of life. What was so good about the crumbling warehouses that were originally there anyway.

Saying that nobody from the local area got any benefit from the development is not true. Local people sold property to the developers. If no locals got jobs there, thats their own fault. There is no policy of discriminating against local residents. If the trades people looked for work off the contractors they have as much chance as anybody else. If anybody with suitable qualifications looked for work in the IFSC they have the same chance as anyone else.

I do in fact live in the real world, I live in the area being spoken about, and funny enough NO local people sold their homes to developers FACT, all the development are being built or proposed on commercial sites, granted people do sell houses but there aren’t any houses for sale near me the last 2-3yrs and there aren’t any developer offering or proposing to buy them....

I never said there was a " POLICY OF DISCRIMINATION" against the locals, I stated that there was a "clause" in the "special" planning permissions that 20% of the employment would be from the docklands area east wall, north wall, sheriff street, rings end, city quay, pearse st, north strand etc... This was one of the reasons for the fast tracking of planning for the whole docklands area, and the fact that Builders and developers didn't employ them and used cheaper "non national" workers should have made their planning permissions null and void.....

As for

anybody with suitable qualifications looked for work in the IFSC they have the same chance as anyone else

is true, the point I was making that when the consultation process was going on the consultants told us there would be plenty of jobs for the locals like cleaning and security, now I have a third level qualification (in fact a few) and many of the people I grew up with have, and to be told that we would have cleaning and security jobs is sort of an insult, they insinuate that the place is full of low skilled uneducated people, and the fact is its not, and that is the real world!!!!!

Mingey

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

the quote sounds like your saying lets feck all the settled community out and move a better class of people in, its views like that that would probably agrieve a local, it like your saying put up or feck off to the people living there already, like your saying count your self lucky we don't evict you?

No, I wasn't saying that, it was kind of tounge-in-cheek, As it happens in places like Beijing & Zimbabwe etc. I added the smiley to demonstrate this, but you took it up wrong.

I don't think 'feck the local community' at all. I personally prefer to see settled communities rather than faceless suits. They are what makes Dublin, Dublin.

You seem to be dismayed that there are apartments going up on wasteland, would you prefer if they were houses instead?

I own my home and have been here for a long time, you think I should just sit back and let some developer or blow in tell me whats going to happen to my community.....

Well no, as I have said in my previous post. I just think you should be clear on what you are fighting for. which is what was promised to you & your community. No point in getting angry at city centre developments in general.

Earth Worm Jim

Mingey wrote: »

No, I wasn't saying that, it was kind of tounge-in-cheek, As it happens in places like Beijing & Zimbabwe etc. I added the smiley to demonstrate this, but you took it up wrong.

I don't think 'feck the local community' at all. I personally prefer to see settled communities rather than faceless suits. They are what makes Dublin, Dublin.

Maybe telling someone your lucky your not being fecked out to finglas seems like a joke to yourself, but the way I see it is that firstly your putting down the good people of finglas (which has a great community) and secondly you are implying we should be glad we are allowed stay living in our own houses in our own community.......

You seem to be dismayed that there are apartments going up on wasteland, would you prefer if they were houses instead?

I will say this again, I am all for the development of the docklands (which is a big place) and while everyone would probably prefer houses over apartments I know that dublin needs/needed as much housing as possible, but if you know the area and whats happening at the moment, empty unsold highrise apartment blocks will do nothing for any area, and I do hope they sell....

Well no, as I have said in my previous post. I just think you should be clear on what you are fighting for. which is what was promised to you & your community. No point in getting angry at city centre developments in general.

I am not angry at any developments, I just pointed out facts, like the fact most of these development had "special" planning permissions which one of the clauses was 20% local employment (never happened, even after picketing the DDDA offices and some sites) plus another thing is the 20% social and affordable housing, while thats another "clause" in the planning, I have went to the fancy presentations for these apartment sales and asked would there be social and affordable housing in the developments (posing as a buyer) and I was told NO, and then I go to a DDDA meeting and hear them tell us we will have lovely apartments and it will be total intergration of private and social.. I could go on, so if you think I am irate, angry or whatever about whats happening as oppose to what was supposed to happen, thats your view and your entitled to it but I know whats going on and if pointing that out makes me angry, irrate, would you prefer I just shut up and agree with everything??

dumbyearbook

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

Maybe telling someone your lucky your not being fecked out to finglas seems like a joke to yourself, but the way I see it is that firstly your putting down the good people of finglas (which has a great community) and secondly you are implying we should be glad we are allowed stay living in our own houses in our own community.......

ah will you get a grip?

You're way subjective anyway 'great community' blah blah there are gangs and drugs and guns out there too more so than in other areas of Dublin so the bit of a joke is fine.

Things are so PC now we cannot open our mouths to say anything about working class people or foreigners or Travellers etc. etc.

You can say you dont like having 'suits' around the area, but heaven forbid you say you want to ban horrid gold hoopy earings and celtic soccer shirts that would be bang otta order !

F*&% the begrudgers

Earth Worm Jim

dumbyearbook wrote: »

ah will you get a grip?

You're way subjective anyway 'great community' blah blah there are gangs and drugs and guns out there too more so than in other areas of Dublin so the bit of a joke is fine.

Things are so PC now we cannot open our mouths to say anything about working class people or foreigners or Travellers etc. etc.

You can say you dont like having 'suits' around the area, but heaven forbid you say you want to ban horrid gold hoopy earings and celtic soccer shirts that would be bang otta order !

F*&% the begrudgers

OK -- Seeing as trying to be positive about the "Docklands" and letting people know whats going on for the improvement of the Area makes me look angry and irate, I will let you in on a few lesser known facts..... There are gangland shootings, drug dealing, anti social behaiour, unemployment all over dublin, including the "docklands" But if you buy into one of these new developments it won't affect you cause we can just omit street names and give the development a fancy name and it will all change.....

I am trying to be positive about the whole "Docklands" area, maybe it doesn't come accross as that but everything I stated in previous posts is whats happening, as I have said before I am all for development of the area as it has been forgoten about for yrs, I reckon if they had did it when they built the IFSC it would be a thriving modern "mini city" that would be as good as any that our European neighbours could offer.. But the reality is that its Nothing like what the PR companies of these developments and the DDDA propose, like omiting street names and the likes and statin the area is a "VIBRANT" area...Thats just Estate Agents speak....

And as for begrudging, my house had increased in value because of these developments and if I wanted to make a profit maybe I could have sold up and made a killing but I didn't, why because I like where I live, So if I was to get a "grip" or "live in the real world" I should either sell up or shut up??

dumbyearbook

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

OK -- Seeing as trying to be positive about the "Docklands" and letting people know whats going on for the improvement of the Area makes me look angry and irate, I will let you in on a few lesser known facts..... There are gangland shootings, drug dealing, anti social behaiour, unemployment all over dublin, including the "docklands" But if you buy into one of these new developments it won't affect you cause we can just omit street names and give the development a fancy name and it will all change.....
And as for begrudging, my house had increased in value because of these developments and if I wanted to make a profit maybe I could have sold up and made a killing but I didn't, why because I like where I live, So if I was to get a "grip" or "live in the real world" I should either sell up or shut up??

Ya theres just more of them in Finglas than anywhere else so lets laugh about it eh? They are not lesser known facts at all, and for gods sake get over the map in the ad - its an ad!! Sales puff thats all.

On the IFSC etc. were a young country with a lot to learn. Things will get (can only get..) better.

edit --- PS well done on buying a house you're way ahead of everyone there.

Degsy

dumbyearbook wrote: »

Ya theres just more of them in Finglas than anywhere else so lets laugh about it eh?

More of what in finglas?