Raise the Asgard

Judgement Day

I originally posted this yesterday in the Sailing & Boats Forum but given the small number of responses I wonder would it be better here?

Original posting:

Would Willie O'Dea ever get off his arse!
I really despair of this fool, would he ever get on with it and get the Asgard raised ASAP. If funding is a problem why not have a special "Lotto" draw run by the National Lottery especially to fund the recovery/restoration. Not only would this get the funding in place fast but it would also demonstrate the support that is out there amongst the Irish public!! However, this would demonstrate the famous, much talked about and never seen - "Thinking outside the box".

I would really like to hear what people think of my Lotto suggestion as I feel if it were applied to the Asgard, in this instance, it might set a precedent for other worthy causes. The present distribution of Lotto funds seems to be far from satisfactory.

maims3875

there is a petition ongoing at Afloat.ie, anyone who would like to support it and the Asgard please "sign" the petition.

Boojum

Did anyone see the letters in the Times this week? One daft man said the Asgard was resting in perfect nick under water!!!!!!

You'd swear she's was just having a bit of a break before continuing home! Does he really think that it hasn't been battered at this stage, that they'll hoist her up and find it good as new?

DamoKen

which is more cost effective, raising and restoring or building a new training vessel outright?

and before anyone says it, no I am not just being a souless bean counter. I just don't get where all this talk of "historical significance" comes from. It is NOT the original Asgard, as far as I know that is safe and sound in Kilmainhaim. It is in fact a sailing craft built 26 years ago and named after a vessel which does have historical significance.

If it was the original Asgard lying at the bottom of the sea I would understand the outrage. But it's not, it's a copy.

If it's to be raised I think it should come down to which is more expensive, not a case of misplaced sentiment.

So anyone? Reasons why it should be raised? Is it a piece of Irish heritage, and if so why?

Judgement Day

The general consensus amongst 'non Willy O'Dea' appointed experts is that the Asgard is still salvageable and, indeed, should be salvaged but with the useless shower of tossers that run this country that isn't going to happen. :mad:

PS It would prove very embarrassing for the Govt. if some UK/International concern were to successfully raise the vessel, so no doubt they will have it designated as a 'war grave' or some other pretext to prevent anybody else having a go!

Judgement Day

So anyone? Reasons why it should be raised? Is it a piece of Irish heritage, and if so why?


As far as I know there is no cut off date as to what constitutes heritage unlike say antiques where something has to be 100 years old to be classified as an antique. Given the Asgard's 28 year history as Ireland's sail training vessel I would think that is enough to classify it as part of our maritime heritage. The reasons why it is not being raised are more to do with the quite appalling attitude towards 'genuine' heritage shown by this and previous governments than any real financial fears. Any country that allows its maritime heritage to be housed in a semi-derelict church in Dun Laoghaire, dependent on volunteers and public donations, clearly has no interest in heritage. No doubt at some future date some massively expensive OPW interpretative centre will be built to tell the story of Asgard II! :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

From today's Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0707/1224274190696.html

Divers questioned after recovering Asgard II wheel

A TEAM of Irish divers was questioned by French police yesterday after they recovered the steering wheel, ship’s bell and compass from the Asgard II .

However, the divers say that if they had not saved the items, they would have been removed by sports divers and lost to the State.

Capt Gerry Burns, a former master of the Asgard II who secured sponsorship for the diving expedition, defended the venture and said that the artefacts would be offered to the National Maritime Museum.

“The Government doesn’t care about sail training, so what harm were we doing?”asked Capt Burns.

Minister for Defence Tony Killeen said last night that he could “find no evidence at this stage that permission for the dive had been granted by either the Irish or French authorities”.

Mr Killeen said that the issue was one for Coiste an Asgard, the sail training organisation which ran Asgard II , and which is still the official owner of the hull.

The team, led by Eoin McGarry of Co Waterford, comprises experienced deep-sea divers, including an off-duty Garda detective.

Mr McGarry has dived on the Lusitania among other expeditions.

Mr McGarry said that the two dives undertaken by the six-strong group this week off the northwest French coast were in 83m of water. “The ship is still upright but listing to starboard,” he said.

“Unfortunately, it is not in a salvageable condition now as the wheelhouse and mast were ripped away by trawling activity, but the hull is intact and we have images of the hole which we believe led to the sinking,”he said. Mr McGarry said that he was “very disappointed” that the sail training organisation Coiste an Asgard had filed a complaint with the French authorities.

This led to the group being questioned by police yesterday afternoon. Mr McGarry said the French police were satisfied once they were informed that one of the divers, a garda, would make the necessary Receiver of Wreck arrangements.

Ship ownership was retained by Coiste an Asgard, after insurance of €3.8 million was paid. The sum, which had been promised initially by former defence minister Willie O’Dea for part cost of a replacement vessel, was returned to central coffers.

The national sail training programme was then cancelled in last year’s budget.

Capt Burns, who led a long-running campaign to have the vessel salvaged, said that the ship had “meant so much to the young people of Ireland that we felt we had to have some tokens”.

“We wanted something for the National Maritime Museum to keep the memory of this vessel alive, and all it stood for,”he said.

“The Government fed us with lies and delaying tactics on the future of the ship and of sail training after the sinking, and then cancelled the whole programme,” said Capt Burns. He said he had raised sponsorship from his employer, Irish Ferries, for the expedition.

A draft inquiry into the sinking has suggested that the ship may have collided with a container or other object. It was not able to rule conclusively on the cause of vessel’s loss, but noted that sub-sea camera footage of the hull, recorded in 2008, pointed to impact.

The timber brigantine sank hours after it began taking in water off the north-west French coast early on September 11th 2008, and all 25 on board were rescued after a “textbook” evacuation by ship’s captain Colm Newport and crew.

One liferaft failed during the evacuation when its floor gave way, and those trainees on board it had to be transferred quickly to an alternative.

I know where I stand on this issue. Much better to let everything rot on the seabed than salvage it - yeah right - given the pathetic response to the sinking by the Irish Government they should shut up completely. Better that salvageable items end up in private collections than lie on the bottom till they rot away. :mad:

jonsnow

Have to say this article infuriated me.The cost of rebuilding the asgard is relatively small (peanuts compared to the amount being funneled into the banks etc) but the returns are huge in terms of building a national spirit,inspiring thousands of people and giving disadvantaged kids probably the only opportunity they,ll realistically have of learning to sail.But as usual our government could not care less.Their own kids will have no trouble getting sailing lessons if thats what floats their boat no doubt.

InTheTrees

This is really about the Asgard II right?

A training ship built in the 1980's? Maybe I'm missing something but what possible reason could there be to go to all the expense of raising it? To restore it? Is that even possible or worthwhile?

What historical value does it have?

Judgement Day

Well it has heritage value to me and I've never even been on it. How old does something have to be to achieve heritage status? No the abandonment of Asgard II is typical of the way politicians pay lip service to heritage in this country and they are devoid of imagination or a can-do approach to things. There was seriously good publicity to be had for Ireland from a salvage effort to raise the Asgard but no it couldn't be done. Perhaps the couple of million it would have cost has gone to a better home in Anglo Irish. :mad:

Einhard

God I hate loaded poll questions. it should be left to rot, not as a monument to Ireland's demise (sensational much?), but because it would be easier to build a new vessel from scratch, and as a modern ship built in the 80s, it is not of historical significance. If the 28 year old Asgard II is regarded as a vital piece of our maritime heritage, the surely the 30 year old naval vessels about to be retired should also be considered such? And how about any army equipment over 30 years old, or indeed anything of similar state in the possession of the state? That's basically what's being advocated when people seek the raising of the Asgard purely on personal, subjective opinion. There are enough genuine heritage projects around the country crying out for limited funds, without competition from a 30 year old boat of no special significance.

Judgement Day

Einhard wrote: »

God I hate loaded poll questions. it should be left to rot, not as a monument to Ireland's demise (sensational much?), but because it would be easier to build a new vessel from scratch, and as a modern ship built in the 80s, it is not of historical significance. If the 28 year old Asgard II is regarded as a vital piece of our maritime heritage, the surely the 30 year old naval vessels about to be retired should also be considered such? And how about any army equipment over 30 years old, or indeed anything of similar state in the possession of the state? That's basically what's being advocated when people seek the raising of the Asgard purely on personal, subjective opinion. There are enough genuine heritage projects around the country crying out for limited funds, without competition from a 30 year old boat of no special significance.

Well God love you but it's too late to alter the poll to suit your sensitivities. Who are you to decide what is of historical significance? And, yes, 30 year old naval vessels could well be considered to be part of our national heritage - it's not as if we have an over abundance of preserved maritime items. A 'so-called' National Maritime Museum (privately funded) operates in a semi-derelict church and that's about it. What are these other heritage projects that you are concerned about?

the_syco

Judgement Day wrote: »

“Unfortunately, it is not in a salvageable condition now as the wheelhouse and mast were ripped away by trawling activity, but the hull is intact and we have images of the hole which we believe led to the sinking,”he said. Mr McGarry said that he was “very disappointed” that the sail training organisation Coiste an Asgard had filed a complaint with the French authorities.

So, the only part still intact has a hole in it? If the reason to get the ship back up as to put it on display, maybe, but if you wanted to use it again, no.

Einhard

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well God love you but it's too late to alter the poll to suit your sensitivities.

No need to get snarky just because someone questions a flawed poll. Incidentally, I didn't ask for it to be changed.

Who are you to decide what is of historical significance?

I have every much a right as you do! You set up a thread and a poll on the issue, I respond, and yet I'm somehow taking liberties on the matter!! And I think you'll find that the majority of people would dismiss the idea that a 28 year old replica of an extant original is in any way a significant part of our heritage.

What are these other heritage projects that you are concerned about?

Is this a serious question? If you're not aware of the huge amount of the acknowledged heritage sites, artifacts and projects around the country, then perhaps it's little surprise that you believe a 28 y/o replica to be significant.

sealgaire

Wont it be damaged beyond repair by this stage? Dunno

Judgement Day

Einhard wrote: »

No need to get snarky just because someone questions a flawed poll. Incidentally, I didn't ask for it to be changed.

No, but you had a good moan about it being flawed!


I have every much a right as you do! You set up a thread and a poll on the issue, I respond, and yet I'm somehow taking liberties on the matter!! And I think you'll find that the majority of people would dismiss the idea that a 28 year old replica of an extant original is in any way a significant part of our heritage.

If you examine my posts I never stated that the Asgard II is a heritage item - I said in my opinion it is, where as you blandly says it isn't. Not in your opinion but fact.


Is this a serious question? If you're not aware of the huge amount of the acknowledged heritage sites, artifacts and projects around the country, then perhaps it's little surprise that you believe a 28 y/o replica to be significant.

I suspect after more than thirty years involvement in and campaigning on heritage issues I am at least as aware as you over heritage sites etc but I was wondering what you considered so urgent. Don't bother replying as this thread was only restarted in response to the salvage dive. I now regard the Asgard II as a write-off due to the time that has elapsed since its sinking.

Einhard

Judgement Day wrote: »

Don't bother replying as this thread was only restarted in response to the salvage dive.

But I wanted to argue some more!!

Judgement Day

Einhard wrote: »

But I wanted to argue some more!!

To what purpose or do you just enjoy typing - I don't unless there is some purpose.

Einhard

Judgement Day wrote: »

To what purpose or do you just enjoy typing - I don't unless there is some purpose.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/humour

As one comic villain once said to his caped adversary, Why so serious??