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The Cuban revolution 50 years on

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245

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    #32
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Jon wrote: »
    What is success?
    Define success? Owning yor own house? Having a cushy job? Driving a nice car? Having private health insurance? Owning some land?

    You will find your answer will be in line with that of a person confined by this system.

    Judging by your last sentence, you do not have a mortgage.


    Nicely put, its amazing how many people define "freedom" as the freedom to make money how ever they please.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #33
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    I lived many years in another Latin American country, but one that was blessed with Uncle Sam's protection. Having seen what could have happened to Cuba without the revolution, all I can say is Viva Fidel y Viva La Revolución

    Just my €0.20, no intention of being dragged into endless silly discussions.


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    #34
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    So your whole argument in favour of Cuba is based on the fact that we are apparently all "slaves" to the banks. Its ridiculous, you define the banks owning you as having a mortgage to them. The correct phrase would be to say they own your house. Or at least part of it. That does not mean they own you at all.

    What is freedom??? Well freedom is something that is best judged by looking at what isnt freedom, and then working opposites.

    So for example: I can travel the world (even though the bank owns me every now and again it lets me off :rolleyes:).
    If I need money I can work loads of jobs and make loads of money.
    I can go to college and do WHATEVER I want for a relatively low price, especcially in Ireland.
    I can say what I want. I can tell the bank manager who "owns" me to fùck off, whereas in Cuba if I tell police to fùck off, Im fùcked.
    And most importantly, I can be of the opinion that the Cuban government is bad, and not be persecuted for thinking so. Can they do that in Cuba???


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    #35
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Paddy Samurai wrote: »
    If you have a mortage ,they own your House till you pay them off
    If you have a carloan ,they own your car till you pay them off
    …
    If you put money in your account,take it out,write a cheque they charge you a fee.
    The important word there is in bold. So banks charge for processing cheques, eh? Imagine that, a business charging for providing a service.
    Paddy Samurai wrote: »
    And as for the Cuban government i'd take them over what we got at the moment any day.
    You think the Cuban government would allow a boards.cu? If it were similar in content to boards.ie, it’s likely that the proprietors would be imprisoned.
    thebigcheese22 wrote: »
    Firstly, they have very little inflation in Cuba so thats the equivelent to our average wage in this country, when buying goods etc.
    Unless you can produce some figures to back up this claim, I’m going to have to dismiss it as utter nonsense.
    thebigcheese22 wrote: »
    If there was an election in Cuba I guarantee you that either of the Castros would win it by a landslide.
    Would that have anything to do with the fact that Cuba is a single-party state? All opposition parties are illegal, as set out in the constitution.
    Jon wrote: »
    Please define this freedom you speak of. I can assure you, if you are not already owned by a bank, you will be someday.
    Please elaborate. I recently moved my current account from one bank to another. There’s nothing stopping me from changing again at some point in the future. How exactly am I “owned” by my current bank?
    Jon wrote: »
    …I can assure you if you want to go to college here you will be burdened with fees.
    Burdened? Hardly. How many people graduate from a third-level course in this country with substantial debts? I would also ask if it is necessary to satisfy the Irish state that one is not of a “revolutionary mindset” before being allowed into university, as is the case in Cuba?
    Jon wrote: »
    I can assure you you will HAVE to pay unreasonable taxes to a system that shags you up the rear-end…
    We actually pay some of the lowest taxes in Europe. I might ask you were you think the Cuban government gets all that money to pay subsidies?
    Jon wrote: »
    Where is this freedom you speak of?
    How about the freedom to leave the country whenever the hell I feel like it?


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    #36
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    This Jon guy has an answer for everything, in the face of overwhelming facts. Looking forward to the next round

    *grabs popcorn*


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    #37
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The average salary in Cuba is $10 to $15 per month and according to the following article, they can buy a PC for $780!!

    http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/03/cubans-line-up-to-buy-first-legal-pcs/

    So yeah, I'm sure most people in Cuba own a PC. Also only "trusted officials" and state journalists are allowed home net access.

    All of you who think Cuba is great, why don't you go on holiday there and see for yourselfs? My sister is only back from there a couple of weeks and she found it to be dreadful.

    Most buildings very old, crumbling and boarded up, even in the most upmarket parts of Havana. As an example, old boarded up building right across the street from her 5 star hotel (more like 3 star by European standards), which was literally on the same street as the government building.

    No street lights, old broken down cars and buses. Zero night life outside tourist compounds, no pubs, clubs, very few and basic restaurants. Basically once sunset comes, the place completely shuts down.

    Talking to locals, no one owns a PC, most don't own a TV or car, some have radios.


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    #38
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #39
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    I don't see why people would get so worked up about Cuba.
    Clearly America's policy towards that island is contemptable.
    Insofar as the Cuban people, it's their country. I don't think anyone can honestly say that Fidel Castro does not have the consent of the cuban people to govern.
    If he didn't, then it's up to the cuban people to change things.
    End of.


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    #40
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    I don't think anyone can honestly say that Fidel Castro does not have the consent of the cuban people to govern.
    It's pretty difficult to say, seeing as how any opposition is illegal. I do agree though that it is up to the people of Cuba to enact change.


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    #41
    yomchi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    turgon wrote: »
    So your whole argument in favour of Cuba is based on the fact that we are apparently all "slaves" to the banks. Its ridiculous, you define the banks owning you as having a mortgage to them. The correct phrase would be to say they own your house. Or at least part of it. That does not mean they own you at all.

    What is freedom??? Well freedom is something that is best judged by looking at what isnt freedom, and then working opposites.

    So for example: I can travel the world (even though the bank owns me every now and again it lets me off :rolleyes:).
    If I need money I can work loads of jobs and make loads of money.
    I can go to college and do WHATEVER I want for a relatively low price, especcially in Ireland.
    I can say what I want. I can tell the bank manager who "owns" me to fùck off, whereas in Cuba if I tell police to fùck off, Im fùcked.
    And most importantly, I can be of the opinion that the Cuban government is bad, and not be persecuted for thinking so. Can they do that in Cuba???

    My jaysis.
    Another liberal utopia. I'll have to really start living it up. I may even go and travel the world, only I can't because I haven't got the money, I have to work to pay the bank for the house I live in. If stop working because I have the freedom to, the bank take my home back. If I have no home, I can't get a job, If I can't get a job I'll never own a house - guess travelling the world is off for me... at the moment anyway.

    Although, on second thoughts, if I need LOADSA money I could always just go and get loads of jobs - now there's a bright idea.

    I can go to college and do whatever I want, as long as I have the right points from my second level education. Sure if I want good leaving cert points I can always go to a private school and pay a ton of money for it, thankfully my folks have good jobs and are well paid. If I don't get the points, I can always pay for it myself with extortionate fees, maybe I'll settle for a diploma instead, they're cheaper.

    Here's a better idea, I can tell my bank manager to fcuk off - I'll stop paying for my car, my house and my annual holiday. He can screw himself. I'll go to another bank where the bank manager is such a nicer person, he'll take me in with open arms - the stubs-gazette won't mind as I told them to fcuk off as well.
    While I'm at it, I'll tell the sherriff and gardai to fcuk off too, they won't arrest me for that.

    I LOVE THIS FREEDOM! FREEDOM TO GIVE EVERYONE THE FINGER!!........

    6 Months later...
    Diary of prisoner number 4657770:-

    Dear diary,
    I fought the law...and the law won.

    ________________________________________________


    :rolleyes: Oh to be young again.


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    #42
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #43
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    djpbarry wrote: »
    It's pretty difficult to say, seeing as how any opposition is illegal. I do agree though that it is up to the people of Cuba to enact change.

    Well I'm sure guerilla activity of the type Castro and his soldiers engaged in was pretty illegal in the late 1950's. That didn't stop them, and it didn't stop the majority of the population supporting Castro.


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    #44
    Red Hand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    *Some people admire Cuba's refusal to bow to outside pressures.

    *Marxists need something to hang on to and believe-right now, they are drones that are mostly confined to academia, like Latin enthusiasts.

    *People who oppose Marxism don't want to admit to the flaws in our own cyclical and exploitive system where the resources of the planet are ravaged, Third World peoples live in poverty and the environment is spoiled.

    *Of course, the same thing happens under Marxism. But it's for "the common good" as Jon points out.

    *It is at times fashionable and sometimes even worthwhile to support Marxism. Castro might have only become a lawyer. Instead, he became benevolent dictator. He's going to have a tomb and a state funeral-not many cynical lawyers fly to such heights.


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    #45
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »
    *Some people admire Cuba's refusal to bow to outside pressures.

    *Marxists need something to hang on to and believe-right now, they are drones that are mostly confined to academia, like Latin enthusiasts.
    I suppose you mean that Cuba is the last enclave of socialism/communism? Is so then you should take a look at every government in South America (bar Columbia).

    *People who oppose Marxism don't want to admit to the flaws in our own cyclical and exploitive system where the resources of the planet are ravaged, Third World peoples live in poverty and the environment is spoiled.

    *Of course, the same thing happens under Marxism. But it's for "the common good" as Jon points out.

    The term Marxism is more expansive than you seem to realise. Sure the USSR may have exploited the environment in terrible ways, but that's not the case in Cuba, one of the leaders in ecological matters. Marxism is not at odds with ecologism, unlike capitalism.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    and 5 years just for connecting to the Internet illegally. Think about that next time you log on!

    In the Uk you can be arrested for illegal internet use. Its not clear what sentences will be given for such crimes yet. Ireland as ever lags behind, but that's not to say connecting to the internet without permission is ok.


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    #46
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Jon wrote: »
    ...I have to work to pay the bank for the house I live in.
    I suppose the bank forced you to buy a house, did they?
    brianthebard wrote: »
    Well I'm sure guerilla activity of the type Castro and his soldiers engaged in was pretty illegal in the late 1950's. That didn't stop them, and it didn't stop the majority of the population supporting Castro.
    Are you trying to say that the fact that opposition parties are illegal and that political dissidents are imprisoned is in some way irrelevant? Popular opposition should garner support whether it is legal or not? Surely that would depend on how the law is maintained?


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    #47
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #48
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That's not what I was talking about either. You can be arrested for obtaining use of a network without permission in the UK.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6958429.stm


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    #49
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    thats not what he is getting at, but I would argue that its illegal to look at things here on the net. Its illegal to look at stuff there. Potato, tomato.


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    #50
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #51
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    50 years on, Cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world, and with very few freedoms. Now, a great deal of this is the sick and crippling embargo on them by the US, but that doesn't justify the lack of liberties.

    Hopefully when the Castros die they'll have a chance at freedom.


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    #52
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #53
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    As opposed to you totally ignoring that there are laws in relation to internet usage here.

    Heaven forbid that standards are applied evenly.


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    #54
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #55
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Irish law restricts internet usage for the 'greater good'.

    Cuban law restricts internet usage for the 'greater good'.

    This is not difficult


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    #56
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Irish law restricts internet usage for the 'greater good'.

    Cuban law restricts internet usage for the 'greater good'.

    This is not difficult

    Ireland- we're not allowed to pirate music (with Eircom), watch child porn or organise IRA bombings
    Cuba- they're not allowed to view the BBC.


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    #57
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    Ireland- we're not allowed to pirate music (with Eircom), watch child porn or organise IRA bombings
    Cuba- they're not allowed to view the BBC.

    The principal is the same, its just how far you extend it.

    I don't support some of the finer points of the way Cuba deals with counter-revolutionaries, but the internet is restricted everywhere.


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    #58
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #59
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #60
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I don't support some of the finer points of the way Cuba deals with counter-revolutionaries...
    Your blasé attitude toward Cuba's human rights record is quite disturbing.


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    #61
    Running Bing
    Registered Users Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭Running Bing


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    The principal is the same, its just how far you extend it.

    I don't support some of the finer points of the way Cuba deals with counter-revolutionaries, but the internet is restricted everywhere.

    No its not...think about it...Ill give you a clue:

    Stealing copyrighted material....whos the victim?
    Watching Child Pornography....whos the victim?
    Logging onto the BBC website....whos the victim?


    I can write off a belief in socialism as a flawed understanding of economic incentives, productivity and welfare economics but I cannot believe people can be so dogged in their defence of an obviously oppressive regime.


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