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The Cuban revolution 50 years on

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    #62
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #63
    thebigcheese22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭thebigcheese22


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I suppose you're right - if someone tried to glorify or defend Bush now, they'd be laughed at :D


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    #64
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    As soon as people like you stop with your crocodile tears.
    And begin to understand Castro's Cuba in the context of American foreign policy towards not only Cuba, but greater Latin America and their many attempts to murder him.


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    #65
    Running Bing
    Registered Users Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭Running Bing


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    As soon as people like you stop with your crocodile tears.

    What a sad callous attitude.


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    #66
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    The latter in particular absolutely baffles me, but then I suspect most who wear the El Che "brand" know little about the man himself.


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    #67
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    And begin to understand Castro's Cuba in the context of American foreign policy towards not only Cuba, but greater Latin America and their many attempts to murder him.
    So killing your political opponents is ok because the US is anti-Cuba?


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    #68
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Jon wrote: »
    I may even go and travel the world, only I can't because I haven't got the money, I have to work to pay the bank for the house I live in.

    It seems your salary is so bad that you can only afford to pay your debts. In this case instead of trying to get a new form of government you should probably just get a better job. Freedom of employment is something we have here you see.
    Jon wrote: »
    I can go to college and do whatever I want, as long as I have the right points from my second level education. Sure if I want good leaving cert points I can always go to a private school and pay a ton of money for it, thankfully my folks have good jobs and are well paid. If I don't get the points, I can always pay for it myself with extortionate fees, maybe I'll settle for a diploma instead, they're cheaper.

    Im from a standard income family, with just one parent working, Ive never got grinds in my life except for classes in Applied Math which cost less than half a 1998 second hand car, and I got 590 points. If I had spent nothing on my education (ie not done Applied Math) I would have still got 545, which is what my brother got while paying nothing. So basically your idea that you have to pay to do good in school is a load of crap.

    Of course I wouldnt expect a communist sympathizer to understand the concept that people could be motivated by something other than governmental threats and brute force.
    Jon wrote: »
    Here's a better idea, I can tell my bank manager to fcuk off - I'll stop paying for my car, my house and my annual holiday.

    Eh so the bank gives you money with certain conditions, and for some reason youve got it in your head that you shouldnt have to pay it back :confused: And this is your sole justification for communism. Youve got to be the most unconvincing socialist in the history of socialism.


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    #69
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #70
    g5fd6ow0hseima
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭g5fd6ow0hseima


    _Nuno_ wrote: »
    No point in wishing Cubans a happy anniversary online, because Cubans are not allowed internet access. You see, those kind of freedoms are not compatible with the all controlling socialist state. People who have access to non state controlled information tend to want things the dictator (yes, that man that seemed to have such good intentions in the beginning) does not want them to have, so access to information must be tightly controlled.
    When I think about it, what access to information does a country like Ireland have?
    One can use the arguement that in a capitalist country, the media is operated by the powerful for the preservation of the status quo.

    Cubans are fairly well ecducated. What harm is this 'lack of access' you speak of doing to them? Not being bias, but I would believe that Cubans are more well educated than the Average U.S. citizen. Its built into our mindset that 'democratic' freedoms are mandatory. But in reality, when the Cuban government can provide education and healthcare on par with most Western states, what is wrong with their opposition to democracy?

    Democracy is a fallacy. Can the population of Ireland bring about revolutionary change on our isles through the ballot box? No.


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    #71
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    When I think about it, what access to information does a country like Ireland have?
    Are you serious? Relative to Cuba, censorship is virtually non-existent in this country.
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    One can use the arguement that in a capitalist country, the media is operated by the powerful for the preservation of the status quo.
    I take it by this that you mean that the media is privately-owned and therefore their output is biased? You are right in some cases, which is why one shouldn’t believe everything they see and hear. We’re still better off than Cuba though, where just one source (the state) decides what the news should and should not be.
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    Cubans are fairly well ecducated. What harm is this 'lack of access' you speak of doing to them? Not being bias, but I would believe that Cubans are more well educated than the Average U.S. citizen. Its built into our mindset that 'democratic' freedoms are mandatory. But in reality, when the Cuban government can provide education and healthcare on par with most Western states, what is wrong with their opposition to democracy?
    Do human rights abuses not mean anything anymore? And if Cuba really is this Marxist utopia, then why are so many Cubans intent on leaving? An estimated 2 million Cubans have emigrated in the last 50 years, many risking their lives in the process.
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    Can the population of Ireland bring about revolutionary change on our isles through the ballot box? No.
    They can if they so choose. You can vote for whoever the hell you want; Cubans cannot.


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    #72
    g5fd6ow0hseima
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭g5fd6ow0hseima


    Not trying to start an arguement about the Irish political system but I do disagree with what you say. The reality is that both leading party differ in little else but name. Voting is going to do little in fairness. That is the flaw of democracy, we are made believe that we have power, but in reality, we have little or none. Being realistic, we cannot change the existing political system but simply limited to interchanging two centre-right parties etc.

    Within Cuba - Well of course its going to have political dissidents, and it would have less and less if the embargo was removed. This is bows down to the fact that the powers that be feel the need to inform us about Cuba's political dissenters. Yet I had to go to lengths to discover that the USA refused to grant exile to ANY Haitan refugees who arrived on US shores in the aftermath of the re-imposition of JB Aristide into office in 1994, yet warmly (and publicly) welcomed EVERY grouping of Cuban refugees into the states during this period.

    So, what about political dissent in post 1972 Chile? Was this 'democratic' neo-liberal regime democratic in reality? No. Far from it. You fail to see that without the current regime, Cuba would be every bit as poor as Haiti and the likes of Honduras. Would I sacrifice my political freedoms in order to improve domestic conditions? Yes. This is what people dont understand about democracy, it suits the wealthy and powerful. In poorer countries, it doesnt work, and only exacerbates harsh conditions.


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    #73
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    Not trying to start an arguement about the Irish political system but I do disagree with what you say. The reality is that both leading party differ in little else but name. Voting is going to do little in fairness. That is the flaw of democracy, we are made believe that we have power, but in reality, we have little or none. Being realistic, we cannot change the existing political system but simply limited to interchanging two centre-right parties etc.
    The flaw in democracy? What, that people choose to vote for the parties they do? I think your problem is with the people not with the system. You are free to vote for the workers party, the socialist party or any other party that puts up candidates. Your problem is that the majority of people don't agree with their policies.


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    #74
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    Not trying to start an arguement about the Irish political system but I do disagree with what you say. The reality is that both leading party differ in little else but name. Voting is going to do little in fairness. That is the flaw of democracy, we are made believe that we have power, but in reality, we have little or none.
    Nevertheless, you can still vote for whoever you want, can’t you? Furthermore, you can stand for election yourself if you like. Neither of these options are presently available to Cubans.
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    Within Cuba - Well of course its going to have political dissidents…
    Everywhere does. The point is that in this country, you can stand outside Leinster House or the GPO and protest to your heart’s content about whatever happens to be bothering you, be it medical cards, tuition fees, international treaties, or whatever. Such activities in Cuba will, at the very least, land you in prison.
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    …and it would have less and less if the embargo was removed.
    Castro’s treatment of his opponents has nothing to do with the US embargo.
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    You fail to see that without the current regime, Cuba would be every bit as poor as Haiti and the likes of Honduras.
    Unless I am very much mistaken, Cuba was relatively wealthy when Castro took power.
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    Would I sacrifice my political freedoms in order to improve domestic conditions? Yes.
    Good for you. But, I think you’ll find the overwhelming majority of people in this country will disagree. I’d wager quite a large number of Cubans would too (particularly those who died at the hands of Castro and co.).
    Dayana Sticky Tundra wrote: »
    This is what people dont understand about democracy, it suits the wealthy and powerful.
    Yeah, because every country in the world with a democratically-elected government has been super-rich since the dawn of time :rolleyes:.


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    #75
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Nevertheless, you can still vote for whoever you want, can’t you? Furthermore, you can stand for election yourself if you like. Neither of these options are presently available to Cubans.
    As I already pointed out there are elections in Cuba, and you can stand as an independent I think.

    Everywhere does. The point is that in this country, you can stand outside Leinster House or the GPO and protest to your heart’s content about whatever happens to be bothering you, be it medical cards, tuition fees, international treaties, or whatever. Such activities in Cuba will, at the very least, land you in prison.

    So there's zero chance you can be locked up for disturbing the peace? Why were the guards pulling the shell to sea protestors off the road, and putting them in jail?
    There are reasons why political dissidents in Cuba are not allowed congregate, the country is still be attacked by the US by various laws and propaganda policies. What other country has radio and tv stations beamed into it from the US to try and cause unrest?


    Castro’s treatment of his opponents has nothing to do with the US embargo.
    Unless I am very much mistaken, Cuba was relatively wealthy when Castro took power.

    I believe you are mistaken. There was a small wealthy class that owned everything and then the vast majority of the population that owned nothing. Now the country may still be poor if you are myopic enough to measure wealth in plain GDP figures and the like, but almost everyone is better off for the last 50 years of communist party rule in Cuba.


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    #76
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #77
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    brianthebard wrote: »
    As I already pointed out there are elections in Cuba…
    I never said otherwise, but all candidates must tow the party line; overt opposition to Castro or to communism is forbidden.
    brianthebard wrote: »
    Why were the guards pulling the shell to sea protestors off the road, and putting them in jail?
    Could you be a little more specific? If you are referring to the ‘Rossport 5’, I believe virtually all charges against them were dropped, were they not?
    brianthebard wrote: »
    There are reasons why political dissidents in Cuba are not allowed congregate…
    Oh I’m sure Castro can fabricate all sorts of reasons. I’m sure he also has all sorts of reasons why political dissidents should be imprisoned, tortured and killed too.
    brianthebard wrote: »
    What other country has radio and tv stations beamed into it from the US to try and cause unrest?
    What other country has American media "beamed" into it? Is that a serious question?
    brianthebard wrote: »
    Now the country may still be poor if you are myopic enough to measure wealth in plain GDP figures and the like, but almost everyone is better off for the last 50 years of communist party rule in Cuba.
    I’m afraid I’m going to have to see some sort of evidence to back up that claim, because I find it quite hard to believe.


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    #78
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Adult response?


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    #79
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #80
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I never said otherwise, but all candidates must tow the party line; overt opposition to Castro or to communism is forbidden.
    Could you be a little more specific? If you are referring to the ‘Rossport 5’, I believe virtually all charges against them were dropped, were they not?
    They were arrested though.
    Oh I’m sure Castro can fabricate all sorts of reasons. I’m sure he also has all sorts of reasons why political dissidents should be imprisoned, tortured and killed too.
    What other country has American media "beamed" into it? Is that a serious question?
    Do you even know what radio and tv martí are? and you are claiming others are uninformed.
    I’m afraid I’m going to have to see some sort of evidence to back up that claim, because I find it quite hard to believe.

    Free education up to fourth level for all, free health care for all, zero illiteracy, etc, etc, etc, I really don't see why its necessary to go through all the ways in which the communist government has improved the lives of the majority of the population.


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    #81
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Having been to "all inclusive" Cuba last year, I will not pretend to be an expert on the country, because I saw only very little of it.

    Yes, it is a socialist country, with many of the drawbacks we know from socialist countries of old. Personal freedoms are restricted, some parts of the economy are mismanaged, infrastructure is poor, etc, pp ...

    But one thing I noticed over and over again ...the people seem to be happy :eek:

    Happy and proud. There is a great sense of community, arts and culture flourish. People work hard in difficult conditions, yet they smile. They express a pride in their country and its achievements that cannot just be explained by political indoctrination. They respect and worship their old and educate their young.

    Their governement and their society works. When those devastating hurricanes hit the Carribean last year, 600- 800 people died in neighbouring Haiti, tens of thousands are still homeless. The Cubans enacted their long prepared and established emergency plans, only six people died and all homes are habitable again. This was done in a big community effort, where everybody put their shoulder to the wheel. Yes, it was done to patriotic speeches about the Cuban revolution and songs of viva Fidel and hasta siempre commandante Che Guevara ...but feck it ...it was done.

    This country goes into meltdown at the sight of three snowflakes :D


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    #82
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    :rolleyes: despotism, really? you're just slinging as much mud as possible to see what you can then pretend sticks.


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    #83
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #84
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #85
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    I spent some time in Cuba, and it has some good points and some bad points, like everywhere.

    Our own system is festering and rotten to the core. People in glass houses and all that.


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    #86
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    One thing that Cuba has to it's credit, is it's world class Health Care system.
    Not the ridiculous propaganda photos Donegalfella posts.
    Do you remember the Elian Gonzalez affair?
    Whereby a certain faction of America attempted to kidnap and brainwash a young cuban boy, whom was put at risk by a reckless mother? While his family wanted his return to Cuba?
    The poor father had to travel to USA to collect his child and was apparently offered 1 million dollars to defect.
    Being a proud Cuban, he turned them down.
    Fair play, and shame, shame on USA.


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    #87
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #88
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #89
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    An interview with That Pathetic Right-Wing Hack.
    What a joke.


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    #90
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    donegalman

    I take that with all your hatred for socialist ideas and among all the propaganda that you can post at the push of a button, it won't be possible to extract an admission from you that not everything in Cuba is bad and that they have indeed achieved some things that they can be proud of?


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    #91
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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