The Cuban revolution 50 years on

RedPlanet

Do you support the US Embargo against Cuba?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

All correct ...but ...nobody starves (unlike in other (Latin) American countries), there is no massive, disproportionate gap between rich and poor (unlike in other (Latin) American countries), there is very little crime and violence (unlike etc...)

All a matter of which propagandist pair of glasses you'd like to wear

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RedPlanet

An article about crime from 10 years ago, does not reflect today's reality.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

_Nuno_

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That is the socialist/communist way, no doubt. Exception for the comrades in the party, of course. I am sure Castro is very well off.

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It needs to be seen in context.
The Cuban revolution was a peasant (pardon the user name similarities) revolution. For centuries the large majority of Cubans have lived in abject poverty, one step removed from slavery. That majority of Cuban society is now better off (and the rich top section fled to Miami while they could).
From our western, capitalistic point of view, where everything is measured by wealth, Cuba doesn't amount to much, granted. But once again, nobody starves, everyone has a roof over their head, an income and social security.
Not something that can be said about the US of A, for example.

I'm not saying that Cuba is all great, I'm not sure if I wanted to live there (if they let me, which they don't) ...but in light of all the difficulties that Cuba had, with its arch enemy just ninety miles across the water, with the difficult and strained relationships they had with other communist/socialist countries for going their own way, I can't help but feel some admiration for what they have achived as a society and wonder if there isn't something that we could learn from Cuba and the Cubans instead of dismissing it outright.

I have memories of visiting the then socialist German Democratic Republic several times and sampling the mood of the people there. I would never have called them "happy". But the Cubans I met did strike me as happy (to my great surprise ...I was expecting grumbling sourpusses) ...and that has made me think there may yet be something to this socialismo malarchy

donegalfella wrote: »

As for the myth that there is no crime and violence in Cuba, have a look at this article from the propagandistic New York Times.

Copyright 1999 The New York Times Company

your standards for counter propaganda are slipping

brianthebard

_Nuno_ wrote: »

That is the socialist/communist way, no doubt. Exception for the comrades in the party, of course. I am sure Castro is very well off.

How much does Castro earn?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

K-9

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is the central point, is a decent Health & Education system (Who compiles the stats?) worth the undeniable lack of human rights, freedom of speech and a dictatorship?

peasant

K-9 wrote: »

This is the central point, is a decent Health & Education system (Who compiles the stats?) worth the undeniable lack of human rights, freedom of speech and a dictatorship?

No, is the short answer


The long answer is slighty more complicated and has several approaches.

For example: Is free speech and the "pursuit of happiness" worth an unaffordable health system, the lack of social security and a "democracy" where only the rich and corrupt can be elected? Is it worth the exploitation of millions so that a few can get rich and the vast majority are just one job away from sleeping under a bridge?

Yes?


Once again ..what pushed me personally into finding out more about Cuba, the revolution and all that was the Cuban people themselves. Not only did they appear happy, content and friendly towards me when I was there (that was expected in a way ...after all I was a rich tourist with tips) but watching them among themselves while hard at work, I got to witness a sense of community, pride, friendliness, humour and willingness to help each other out that I found remarkable.

I was expecting downtrodden victims of dictatorship, grey, grumbling people, bent by years of opression and hardship.

I found the opposite ...that made me think.

I'm not finished thinking and wondering yet and what's currently happening in the capitalist world certainly won't let me stop soon either.

brianthebard

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

according to forbes

And the lines often blur between what is owned by the country and what is owned by the individual.

castro's worth over 900m and all he buys are fatigues and tracksuits? hmm....

A Primal Nut

Jon wrote: »

LMAO, Turgon, my friend - what is highlighted in bold in my post above is taken from the links nuno posted up. The answers were in the links, if you have read them you'd see that.
No where did I say Cuba was a paradise, it isn't because of the US embargo/blockade.

Of course no Country acts angrily when it's power is threatened, sure it doesn't? :rolleyes:

Why do people always blame the embargo - can't Cuba trade with other countries as much as they want?

A Primal Nut

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

If you have a mortage ,they own your House till you pay them off
If you have a carloan ,they own your car till you pay them off
They can close down hundreds of businesses and put thousands out of work by not extending bank overdrafts.
If you put money in your account,take it out,write a cheque they charge you a fee.
If the banks collapse ,since the government made the people of ireland guarantors for their debts,you will work to pay it off with new taxes.
Thet get a share of every euro in your pocket ,you buy a loaf of bread,part of the price goes towards the bakers mortage/bankloan etc.
They own you ,you just don't know it.
And as for the cuba government i'd take them over what we got at the moment any day.

And no i'am not a communist i just believe in giving credit were its due.

So you don't mind not being able to leave the country or having free speech. Some things are more important than money.

As for the banks, you borrowed the money, of course you have to pay it back. And at least you can criticise them or even leave the. If you are owned by the government you a slave, you can be thrown in jail for saying the wrong thing and be unable to leave.

K-9

peasant wrote: »

No, is the short answer


The long answer is slighty more complicated and has several approaches.

For example: Is free speech and the "pursuit of happiness" worth an unaffordable health system, the lack of social security and a "democracy" where only the rich and corrupt can be elected? Is it worth the exploitation of millions so that a few can get rich and the vast majority are just one job away from sleeping under a bridge?

Yes?

Our life expectancy is higher, there is a decent SW system and we have free elections. You might complain why 80/90% of the people vote for essentially the same parties, but hey that's democracy. At least there is a choice, as in No to Lisbon.

peasent wrote:

Once again .what pushed me personally into finding out more about Cuba, the revolution and all that was the Cuban people themselves. Not only did they appear happy, content and friendly towards me when I was there (that was expected in a way ...after all I was a rich tourist with tips) but watching them among themselves while hard at work, I got to witness a sense of community, pride, friendliness, humour and willingness to help each other out that I found remarkable.

I was expecting downtrodden victims of dictatorship, grey, grumbling people, bent by years of opression and hardship.

I found the opposite ...that made me think.

I'm not finished thinking and wondering yet and what's currently happening in the capitalist world certainly won't let me stop soon either.

I accept that, I think myself Irish people were happier in the 80's.

K-9

I think I heard the sound of Fingernails scratching on that one.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

A Primal Nut

RedPlanet wrote: »

One thing that Cuba has to it's credit, is it's world class Health Care system.
Not the ridiculous propaganda photos Donegalfella posts.
Do you remember the Elian Gonzalez affair?
Whereby a certain faction of America attempted to kidnap and brainwash a young cuban boy, whom was put at risk by a reckless mother? While his family wanted his return to Cuba?
The poor father had to travel to USA to collect his child and was apparently offered 1 million dollars to defect.
Being a proud Cuban, he turned them down.
Fair play, and shame, shame on USA.

Reckless mother? More like desperate. She desperately wanted a new life for herself and her son and lost her life to do it. Then, an American judge sent him back to Cuba. So how can anyone argue America tried to kidnap him when the authorities sent him home. It was actually one Cuban uncle (if i remember) who wanted to keep him, not america.

Why people think America kidnapped him when it was an american judge who actually sent him home is beyond me.

K-9

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Reckless mother? More like desperate. She desperately wanted a new life for herself and her son and lost her life to do it. Then, an American judge sent him back to Cuba. So how can anyone argue America tried to kidnap him when the authorities sent him home. It was actually one Cuban uncle (if i remember) who wanted to keep him, not america.

Why people think America kidnapped him when it was an american judge who actually sent him home is beyond me.

Last I seen of the lad, he was being paraded on a stage in front of Castro spouting the party line.

I'm sure he wasn't brainwashed or paid of though, only Americans do that!

anonymous_joe

Cuba in my mind is poverty, secret police and great doctors.

yomchi

turgon wrote: »

It seems your salary is so bad that you can only afford to pay your debts. In this case instead of trying to get a new form of government you should probably just get a better job. Freedom of employment is something we have here you see.



Im from a standard income family, with just one parent working, Ive never got grinds in my life except for classes in Applied Math which cost less than half a 1998 second hand car, and I got 590 points. If I had spent nothing on my education (ie not done Applied Math) I would have still got 545, which is what my brother got while paying nothing. So basically your idea that you have to pay to do good in school is a load of crap.

Of course I wouldnt expect a communist sympathizer to understand the concept that people could be motivated by something other than governmental threats and brute force.



Eh so the bank gives you money with certain conditions, and for some reason youve got it in your head that you shouldnt have to pay it back And this is your sole justification for communism. Youve got to be the most unconvincing socialist in the history of socialism.

Way to miss the point COMPLETELY.
My post was a play on words in direct relation to yours :rolleyes:

It wasn't that hard to realise, seriously.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Running Bing

brianthebard wrote: »

according to forbes castro's worth over 900m and all he buys are fatigues and tracksuits? hmm....

Oh come on, dont be so naive.


Everybody knows that all animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others.;)


Its interesting to note that in the whole thread the only people posting verifiable facts are those denouncing the Castro regime. All I have heard from the pro-Castro brigade is a lot of intangible mumbo jumbo. I accept Cuba has decent standards in health and education but outside of that the country is in an awful state. Indeed the very fact the Cuban health care and education systems stand out is because socialism on the whole has been such an abject failure.

And is our education and health care system really in such a bad shape in comparison to Cuba's?

Democracy and Capitalism has its flaws but we never had to build a wall to hold our people in.

djpbarry

brianthebard wrote: »

They were arrested though.

Did they get a fair trial? Yes they did. Were they imprisoned for their crimes? No they were not.

Your attempt to portray the Irish authorities as equals of the Castro regime is laughable.

brianthebard wrote: »

Do you even know what radio and tv martí are?

Yes, I do. What’s your point? The presence of American media in one’s country justifies human rights abuses?

brianthebard wrote: »

Free education up to fourth level for all, free health care for all…

Yeah, yeah; done to death.

brianthebard wrote: »

I really don't see why its necessary to go through all the ways in which the communist government has improved the lives of the majority of the population.

I do. All we’ve heard so far is that education and health aren’t half bad. Is that it? What sort of health are the general populace in, by the way? I’m guessing, worse than the Irish population.

peasant wrote: »

Having been to "all inclusive" Cuba last year, I will not pretend to be an expert on the country, because I saw only very little of it.
…
But one thing I noticed over and over again ...the people seem to be happy

I was in Havana once – everybody was very sad. See – I can conjure pointless stories too.

peasant wrote: »

Their governement and their society works.

Absolutely ridiculous claim. I’ll ask again – if Cuba is such a glorious place, then why are thousands of Cubans literally risking their lives to get out of the country? Why aren’t people from other countries beating down the door to get in?

peasant wrote: »

But once again, nobody starves, everyone has a roof over their head, an income and social security.

The same could be said for the inmates in Mountjoy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RedPlanet

The New York Post is a tabloid rag.
But let's look at their source shall we?

an ex-Castro official named "Ramon" tells filmmaker Ian Halperin.

Who is Ian Halperin?

"Ian Halperin is a self styled investigative journalist. He is the author or coauthor of nine books, including Celine Dion: Behind the Fairytale, Fire and Rain: The James Taylor Story and Hollywood Undercover. He coauthored Who Killed Kurt Cobain"

"On December 22, 2008, the tabloid newspaper The Sun, cited Halperin as the source for the claim that Michael Jackson "needs a lung transplant, but may be too weak to go through with it". Halperin also claimed Jackson "could barely speak, suffers from emphysema, internal bleeding, and has lost 95% of the vision in his left eye". This claim has been denied by a Jackson representative, who said, "The writer's wild allegations concerning Mr. Jackson's health are a total fabrication...Mr. Jackson is in fine health, and finalizing negotiations with a major entertainment company & television network for both a world tour and a series of specials and appearances".
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Music/12/23/jackson.illness.rumor/

So, what we have here, is fella that writes tabloid shock journalism, probably made up from thin air.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.