The doctrine of The Immortal Soul.

JimiTime

Its a subject that was touched on in another thread. I'd like to hammer it out here. PDN said its revealed in the revelation of scripture, something which I would contend, but thats based on a previous look into it, so the details are not so fresh. I wouldn't mind discussing it though.

From a purely logical side of things, why would God make creatures which were Immortal, i.e. He can't destroy? Also, I don't recall any scriptural backing for this doctrine. None that would have a person so certain of its truth anyway? Maybe I'm mistaken, but would like to see the evidence for this doctrine?

Here's to hoping for a constructive discussion.
J.

Húrin

Just because God created some being to be immortal within the laws of nature, does not remove his ability to destroy it. Satan is a good example; at his judgement, he will come to an end.

I also do not agree that the human soul is naturally immortal. I think that this idea was a Greek invention. In reality I think it's more likely that immortality is conditional on accepting Jesus Christ.

JimiTime

Húrin wrote: »

Just because God created some being to be immortal within the laws of nature, does not remove his ability to destroy it. Satan is a good example; at his judgement, he will come to an end.

I also do not agree that the human soul is naturally immortal. I think that this idea was a Greek invention. In reality I think it's more likely that immortality is conditional on accepting Jesus Christ.

Immortal within the laws of nature? Immortal means its not possible to die does it not? Are we now watering down its meaning? or am I mistaken? As for Satan, he's not immortal by my understanding of the term. Its said he will be destroyed, thus making him, mortal.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

Its a subject that was touched on in another thread. I'd like to hammer it out here. PDN said its revealed in the revelation of scripture, something which I would contend, but thats based on a previous look into it, so the details are not so fresh. I wouldn't mind discussing it though.

From a purely logical side of things, why would God make creatures which were Immortal, i.e. He can't destroy? Also, I don't recall any scriptural backing for this doctrine. None that would have a person so certain of its truth anyway? Maybe I'm mistaken, but would like to see the evidence for this doctrine?

Here's to hoping for a constructive discussion.
J.

Hello Jimi, long time, no debate

I don't think there's any kind of theological discussion of immortality in scripture but you will find phrases such as everlasting fire/torment and everlasting life.

Doesn't the story of Lazarus and the rich man show that there's life after death for the just and the unjust:

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,

21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Being immortal doesn't mean that God can't destroy us, of course He can, but it's not part of His dessign.

I know you have difficulty with the concept of eternal punishment but I think it's quite clear from scripture that it exists (everlasting torment/weeping/gnashing of teeth/rich man in Luke 16.

I presume you don't doubt immortality for those who are saved?

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Jimi, long time, no debate

Indeed. You obviously have a life outside of boards, unlike the rest of us:) Tell me, what does air smell like?:)

I don't think there's any kind of theological discussion of immortality in scripture but you will find phrases such as everlasting fire/torment and everlasting life.

Yeah, I know of this language. Is this what the immortal soul doctrine is based on?

Doesn't the story of Lazarus and the rich man show that there's life after death for the just and the unjust:

Its a parable, and taken in isolation, it would seem so. I'm not denying life after death for all though. Both the wicked and the righteous will be raised. That is clear.

Being immortal doesn't mean that God can't destroy us, of course He can, but it's not part of His dessign.

Thats not what immortality is though is it? Immortal means that one 'can't' die, or am I mistaken?

I know you have difficulty with the concept of eternal punishment but I think it's quite clear from scripture that it exists (everlasting torment/weeping/gnashing of teeth/rich man in Luke 16.

Thats a whole different discussion:)

I presume you don't doubt immortality for those who are saved?

I don't believe in immortality for the saved actually. I believe in everlasting life. Adam and Eve had everlasting life, but they were not immortal, you see the difference?

Húrin

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't believe in immortality for the saved actually. I believe in everlasting life. Adam and Eve had everlasting life, but they were not immortal, you see the difference?

what do you mean?

JimiTime

Húrin wrote: »

what do you mean?

If something is immortal, it 'can't' die. It 'cannot' be destroyed.

God can give 'everlasting life', which is different to immortality, in that it 'can' be destroyed. Adam and Eve, would not have died if they did not give in to temptation i.e. They would have everlasting life. The fact that they inherited death as a result of sin, means that this everlasting life was taken away. Thus, they were never 'immortal', but they did have everlasting life before they inherited death through sin. You see the difference?

Phototoxin

immortatlity is living forever. the soul is destroyable so it is not invincible but it could live for ever. I dont know if it can be destroyed

JimiTime

Phototoxin wrote: »

immortatlity is living forever. the soul is destroyable so it is not invincible but it could live for ever. I dont know if it can be destroyed

So one can be immortal, yet still be killed?

santing

JimiTime wrote: »

So one can be immortal, yet still be killed?

There seems to be confusion about "immortal" and "death" here.

First, Satan will not be destroyed or annihilated. He will enter an everlasting punishment - Hell.

Rev 20:10 ESV and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

At judgment day the "dead" will stand before God's throne. They have not received eternal life during their life, and that is why they are called "dead." They are however, very much aware of what is going on, and suffer the same everlasting punishment as the devil:

Rev 20:15 ESV And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So it can be concluded that angels and man have an "immortal" soul or
consciousness. This has nothing to do with "eternal life," which refers to the capability to enjoy God's presense.