BoI staff to receive 3.5% pay rise after Gov bailout.

dresden8

BroomBurner wrote: »

So, if a company is not profitable, is receiving funding from the government to bail them out, then why would all staff members receive a payrise?

The company is still profitable because the government is not insisting that they tell us how much they have lost and are covering up those losses.

In fact, the government itself is insisting they don't tell us.

Remember, they only appear to be profitable in the hope of conning the taxpayer who is giving the 7 billion and more remotely in the hope of conning investors into thinking they're a good bet.

*Honey*

Bloody typical... the Government take with one hand (public sector workers) and allow a private company who they, to all intents and purposes, are supporting through taxpayers money, to use that money to give pay rises to their staff??? Rubbish, God awful business managment, and bloody typical.

I no longer want to hear the usual gripe of public v priviate workers... seems to me that the public servants really are the ones bailing out the country, esp if the Government allow this pay rise through to private sector workers.

BTW, on another point, is it true that top civil servants, including the TD's, awarded themselves a 1.1% pay rise the day before the "pension levy" was announced??? I could be wrong, just looking for clarification on this.

BroomBurner

*Honey* wrote: »

BTW, on another point, is it true that top civil servants, including the TD's, awarded themselves a 1.1% pay rise the day before the "pension levy" was announced??? I could be wrong, just looking for clarification on this.

They tabled a motion for this on the same day as the motion for the pension levy, but as far as I know it has yet to be voted on, or passed.

OhNoYouDidnt, yeah, I'm mad as hell now. The pension levy was one thing, but I got over it, thankfully I'll still be ok. However, that, matched with the ESB giving their payrise (instead of reducing our bills seeing as fuel has decreased), and the fact that a motion was even SUGGESTED to give PO's a 1.1% increase; all of it really sickens my stones.

*Honey*

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If I were a civil servant I would be outraged by this.

I am sickened by it... I don't have the energy for outrage anymore.

I keep wondering if it can get more surreal and laugh at myself and say no... but then it does.

For all those bitching about the public service, apparently the BoI is the place to work these days!!! They can do on wrong it seems.

This country and this Government is an utter joke. Why the hell are we putting up with this circus???

*Honey*

BroomBurner wrote: »

They tabled a motion for this on the same day as the motion for the pension levy, but as far as I know it has yet to be voted on, or passed.

OhNoYouDidnt, yeah, I'm mad as hell now. The pension levy was one thing, but I got over it, thankfully I'll still be ok. However, that, matched with the ESB giving their payrise (instead of reducing our bills seeing as fuel has decreased), and the fact that a motion was even SUGGESTED to give PO's a 1.1% increase; all of it really sickens my stones.

Thanks for that... if they award it themselves, I think there'll be mutiny to be honest.

All I heard as backlash to the ESB pay rise was Mary Coughlan saying it really wasn't a good idea... brilliant love, you tell them!! :rolleyes:

Give. Me. Strength.

ixoy

BroomBurner wrote: »

However, that, matched with the ESB giving their payrise (instead of reducing our bills seeing as fuel has decreased)

I thought the prices were decided by the regulator and not the ESB itself?

Quick question: How many of the CS/PS people here are going to receive a pay rise when they go up the next step on the "ladder" for their grade?

Question #2: Obviously all execs, etc should have their pay frozen, but do you resent the lowly bank clerk also getting a rise? I do recall seeing a paper showing their wages were lower than that of a clerical officer.

BroomBurner

ixoy wrote: »

I thought the prices were decided by the regulator and not the ESB itself?

Quick question: How many of the CS/PS people here are going to receive a pay rise when they go up the next step on the "ladder" for their grade?

Question #2: Obviously all execs, etc should have their pay frozen, but do you resent the lowly bank clerk also getting a rise? I do recall seeing a paper showing their wages were lower than that of a clerical officer.

The ESB apply to the Regulator for any rises, who then awards them. I still think that the pay award shouldn't have been granted. Though that's an argument on a different thread.

On the increment thing, I have no idea whether I will get my increment, it is a long way off so who knows. They might stop that by that time. I can only speak for myself in answering that, and I can't give you a definite answer as it's out of my control.

On your last question, I don't "resent lowly bank workers", however, I do resent one section of society taking a dock in pay while another section take a payrise when the two are linked. I'm not complaining about the likes of Zurich staff getting their payrises, as the government isn't spending the levy money to bail them out.

gandalf

BroomBurner wrote: »

On your last question, I don't "resent lowly bank workers", however, I do resent one section of society taking a dock in pay while another section take a payrise when the two are linked. I'm not complaining about the likes of Zurich staff getting their payrises, as the government isn't spending the levy money to bail them out.

And what about all the people who lost their jobs or who are in danger of losing their jobs and those who have been on pay freezes or cuts since last year. My god I am getting sick and tired of all the PS/CS types throwing themselves up on a cross thinking they are the only ones feeling pain out of this situation. The government have made a complete and utter mess of things, when times were good they should have trimmed the fat out of the Public Service but instead they bloated it more. The money is not there and as people lose their jobs and the tax take constricts there will be even less.

The bank should freeze any payrises and the Government if they had any leadership qualities at all would ensure this while tax payers money are being used to bail the banks out.

*Honey*

gandalf wrote: »

The government have made a complete and utter mess of things, when times were good they should have trimmed the fat out of the Public Service but instead they bloated it more. The money is not there and as people lose their jobs and the tax take constricts there will be even less.

For the Lord's sake, read the OECD report - the Irish public service is only on a par with comparative countries... inform yourself before you start making sweeping statements. :rolleyes:

ParkRunner

ixoy wrote: »

I thought the prices were decided by the regulator and not the ESB itself?

Quick question: How many of the CS/PS people here are going to receive a pay rise when they go up the next step on the "ladder" for their grade?

Question #2: Obviously all execs, etc should have their pay frozen, but do you resent the lowly bank clerk also getting a rise? I do recall seeing a paper showing their wages were lower than that of a clerical officer.

Regarding the first question any recent increment or pay rise has been wiped out by the pension levy and chances are if we were to get an increment this would be wiped out by an income tax increase.
Question two - I don't resent a lowly bank clerk getting a rise. We don't have the transparency to know who exactly is getting this rise though and I can't see a bank of ireland pay analysis thread starting off

gandalf

*Honey* wrote: »

For the Lord's sake, read the OECD report - the Irish public service is only on a par with comparative countries... inform yourself before you start making sweeping statements. :rolleyes:

I make my opinion based on my business dealings with departments within the PS/CS. From that it is clear that work practices are totally out dated and some people are promoted into jobs that they have no qualification to do just because they were next in line with no motivation to take responsibility for their jobs.

I see the wastage that the tax money that I and the rest of the irish tax payers fund. That has now got to end and because the Government failed in their duty when times were good it is going to be a painful process.

Unfortunately for you and the other cheerleaders for no pain in the Public Service/Civil Service I am informed based on my actual experiences.

If the money is not there then something has to give.

miju

gandalf wrote: »

TBH in the current climate and given taxpayers money is bailing them out there is no justification for this. Others are taking pay freezes and cuts (and have been doing so for over a year now) the PS have the pension levy so personally I feel the banks especially as they cannot transact business without a state bailout should at very least be freezing pay until such time that they can stand on their own two feet.

+1 every was so eager for a PS pay cut / levy and talks about benchmarking working both ways.

*Honey*

gandalf wrote: »

I make my opinion based on my business dealings with departments within the PS/CS. From that it is clear that work practices are totally out dated and some people are promoted into jobs that they have no qualification to do just because they were next in line with no motivation to take responsibility for their jobs.

I see the wastage that the tax money that I and the rest of the irish tax payers fund. That has now got to end and because the Government failed in their duty when times were good it is going to be a painful process.

Unfortunately for you and the other cheerleaders for no pain in the Public Service/Civil Service I am informed based on my actual experiences.

If the money is not there then something has to give.

My experience is from working in the Public Service where I have worked for 14 years. Yes there are useless lumps working with me but I imagine every single one of us can point to some useless lump working with them too, public or private service. I worked in private businesses too and I didn't find such a huge difference between the two - there are good and bad about both (actually the managers in the private businesses were far more vindictive and nasty and I've seen people fired for no reason other than the manager just didn't like them - at least you have protection from that in the public service). I word hard as do 99% of my colleagues... what fat there is is at the top of the hugely bureaucratic system which we, the front line workers, had no part in making.

With regard to promotion to positions that people have no qualifications for, for any promotion I've applied to, I've had to attend an interview board with a minimum of 5 people on it (usually 6 incluidng a rep from HR) and I've always had to do a presentation which is specifically related to the area I was applying to work in. It was a far more in depth, nerve wracking interview process than for any job I had in private businesses. Also, those who didn't meet the relevant qualification criteria, weren't interviewed in the first place so I really don't know where you're getting your information from other than some tabloid nonsense spewed out and regurgitated on boards like this and pubs around the country.

You might not like it, but this country needs a public service. Without it, there would be chaos. And to provide this, costs money. Public servants are tax payers too and we have every right to defend ourselves against sweeping statements such as the one you (and others) have made on these boards.

gandalf

I'm not going to address all your points because this thread is about the Banks and their raise. My point was raised as an aside to comments made that appeared to show the CS/PS were taking all the pain because of a pension levy.

*Honey* wrote: »

My experience is from working in the Public Service where I have worked for 14 years.

My experience is from 18 years working in the private sector. Quite a few of those years dealing from various businesses with quite a selection of the PS/CS.

With regard to promotion to positions that people have no qualifications for, for any promotion I've applied to, I've had to attend an interview board with a minimum of 5 people on it (usually 6 incluidng a rep from HR) and I've always had to do a presentation which is specifically related to the area I was applying to work in. It was a far more in depth, nerve wracking interview process than for any job I had in private businesses. Also, those who didn't meet the relevant qualification criteria, weren't interviewed in the first place so I really don't know where you're getting your information from other than some tabloid nonsense spewed out and regurgitated on boards like this and pubs around the country.

As I have said previously this is from dealing with organisations directly in a business capacity and if thats the process these individuals I had to deal with went through then the pool was extremely poor or the interviewers were operating in auto pilot and people such as yourself should feel extremely hard done by that candidates of this calibre were let through.

You might not like it, but this country needs a public service. Without it, there would be chaos. And to provide this, costs money. Public servants are tax payers too and we have every right to defend ourselves against sweeping statements such as the one you (and others) have made on these boards.

I am sorry if I have hit a soft spot but tbh these are my experiences as a private sector worker who has to dealt with the PS/CS on a daily basis for my business and I know I am not the only one.

You and the people who do work hard are being done a dis-service to not address issues like these and while having a PS/CS does cost money it is the Government responsibility to ensure the tax payer gets value for money. I sincerely believe this is not the case.

I'm not responding any further on this thread about this as its about the banks and their pay rise and thats what I will respond to.

Mr.Micro

Anyway, coming back to the BoI payrise for its staff is like 2 fingers up at the taxpayer and the Government. When the banks went in the night to ask the Dept of Finance to help them or bail them out Brian Lenihan had the upper hand to exact conditions, guarantees the lot in return for saving them. He delayed and delayed until the initiative swung back somewhat in the banks favour and the banks realised we can play this get what we want and not have to give up much. So now we see who is leading whom. It would perhaps be better if the lot of them had been fully nationalized as they will continue to behave as if they are a great success and are now drunk on taxpayers hard earned cash and cannot believe their luck.

jenzz

I know nothing - im a lay person giving an opinion here - my opinion !

Why are we giving them 7 b in the first place ? (We - being the taxpayer or we being the government however you look at it .) We are giving it to them because they have no money,because it was sensationalised that it would get to the stage where no money would come out of the ATM, because they were close to having no money to give out etc etc. If this is the real reason then how can they afford to give staff pay rises ? If its not the real reason then why are we giving them the 7 b in the first place !

Every company no matter who they are has income & expenditure & it generally needs to balance. The banks had no money in the pit as such so the government had to bail them out . This is what I the joe soap on the strret is hearing. There was no money left so the government was called in to help ! How can the banks then actually justify using it for another purpose?

Another point is - has the money physically been handed over as such? Well if not these einsteins running this country should maybe be start to ask a few more questions of our banking sector rather than as usual we find out about the scandal 6 months after its been dead & buried!


The BOI in Bray has been getting a face lift since the day the bail out was announced. A face lift ! Does anyone ever question anything in this government of ours - because thats the first thing I would be asking - explain yourselves & start at the very beginning !

Mr.Micro

Every company no matter who they are has income & expenditure & it generally needs to balance. The banks had no money in the pit as such so the government had to bail them out . This is what I the joe soap on the strret is hearing. There was no money left so the government was called in to help ! How can the banks then actually justify using it for another purpose?

Quite right. The banks have hit the motherlode, realized their importance, they cannot be allowed to fail ( this what the Government has said several times)so now will milk the bottomless pit that is the taxpayer.

bonkey

EF wrote: »

Regarding the first question any recent increment or pay rise has been wiped out by the pension levy and chances are if we were to get an increment this would be wiped out by an income tax increase.

An income tax increase would equally hit those who don't get an increment, such as bank clerks or anyone on a pay freeze.

We don't have the transparency to know who exactly is getting this rise though and I can't see a bank of ireland pay analysis thread starting off

From here:

...6,000 branch workers received a 3.5% pay rise backdated to last November — meaning up to €10m more will be paid out to bank officials this year.

The increase, which involves workers in employment grades below branch management, is linked to the same national pay deal as the ESB pay rise...

Exact enough?

Caint cóir

I fully understand the anger if this pay rise goes to those who are already earning inflated wage packets, but if this pay rise is directed toward BoI staff who are due a wage increase in line with inflation, I think it is totally justified.

*Honey*

Why? Why do they deserve it? When we're told over and over again, ad nauseum, that the banks have no money ... so the Government bails them out with taxpayers money.. and yet now they have the money to pay the pay increase?? C'mon!!! There simply is no logical reason for this. If they don't have the money, if they are in such bad financial straits they have to go, cap in hand, to the Government and beg to be bailed out.. then they sure as hell don't have the money to be giving staff wage increases.

annon123

Caint cóir wrote: »

I fully understand the anger if this pay rise goes to those who are already earning inflated wage packets, but if this pay rise is directed toward BoI staff who are due a wage increase in line with inflation, I think it is totally justified.

I don't think anyone disagrees with underpaid staff getting a pay rise in line with inflation but what is getting to me and many others is that the bank went with cap in hand to the govt for finance. Govt says of course here you go 8billion e . Then takes the money from the public sector to pay for the pay rise in a company that's pleading poverty but showing off profit. Why should the public sector take a pay Cut to justify this loan and then have 2fingers stuck up at them. I don't blame them 4 being angered.

miju

Caint cóir wrote: »

I fully understand the anger if this pay rise goes to those who are already earning inflated wage packets, but if this pay rise is directed toward BoI staff who are due a wage increase in line with inflation, I think it is totally justified.

again the national wage agreement has been frozen / gotten rid of for both public and private sector so why should BoI be any different???

*Honey*

In VERY simple terms, the Government is reducing their payroll costs by taking a pay cut (pension levy) from the public sector workers. This is then going back into the Government coffers. From this, payments are made to the banks cos they're in such dire straits, they don't have any money left. And the banks are increasing their own payroll costs cos they're giving the pay rise to their employees.

Someone, please, explain the logic to me.

ParkRunner

bonkey wrote: »

An income tax increase would equally hit those who don't get an increment, such as bank clerks or anyone on a pay freeze.


From here:

...6,000 branch workers received a 3.5% pay rise backdated to last November — meaning up to €10m more will be paid out to bank officials this year.

The increase, which involves workers in employment grades below branch management, is linked to the same national pay deal as the ESB pay rise...

Exact enough?

Ok my maths isn't great and im gladly open to correction but ill give it a shot. 10million being spent on a 3.5% increase for 6,000 workers means a rise of about €1,666 each on average.

For a 3.5% increase to equate to €1,666 you would need to be earning about €47,000?

ixoy

*Honey* wrote: »

In VERY simple terms, the Government is reducing their payroll costs by taking a pay cut (pension levy) from the public sector workers. This is then going back into the Government coffers. From this, payments are made to the banks cos they're in such dire straits, they don't have any money left. And the banks are increasing their own payroll costs cos they're giving the pay rise to their employees.

As galling as it is, aren't the pay rises just a mere drop in the ocean compared to how much the banks need in capital? The few million being paid out are nothing compared to the amount of money they need. If they didn't award the pay rise, they'd probably need €6.99bn instead of €7bn. Symbolically of course it's a disaster but in the cold hard cash world it doesn't amount to much.

Of course these are loans to the banks, not mere free handouts. Anyone got any idea how much the government would stand to get back over the full length of the loan?

eoinbn

miju wrote: »

again the national wage agreement has been frozen / gotten rid of for both public and private sector so why should BoI be any different???

That's the problem, the agreement is still there. The agreement was for both public and private companies that were represented at the talks. The government have decide that they can't afford it so they won't pay it, but the other groups are still bound by it- hence BoI/ESB are going ahead and paying it.

BroomBurner

Caint cóir wrote: »

I fully understand the anger if this pay rise goes to those who are already earning inflated wage packets, but if this pay rise is directed toward BoI staff who are due a wage increase in line with inflation, I think it is totally justified.

The PS was due a payrise in line with inflation, yet everyone was chomping at the bit to get it stopped.

Gandalf, not everyone here from the PS was against the PS taking some hit. Try reading other threads/comments before speaking directly from the chip you've developed on your shoulder.

Ioxy, I've no idea on how much the government will get back, due to their usual secrecy with all thing taxpayer-related. However, for a loan applicant to begin spending extra money before they have even received the loan in the first place is what got us all in to this mess. People living beyond their means. Just because it's a bank/business, doesn't mean the same rules should not apply. They should be saving where they can and beginning the payback as soon as possible.

Caint cóir

annon123 wrote: »

Why should the public sector take a pay Cut to justify this loan and then have 2fingers stuck up at them. I don't blame them 4 being angered.

Yes your right Annon, this doesn't add up. My point is however that BoI staff were due a wage increase. The BoI staff are not the demons here, just because they work in a sector (under executives) that's displayed massive disregard for the global economy.

The public sector staff have every right to show their grievences, and it's a joke that the goverment can get away with this. If the public sector has invested its wages into the economy they should see the returns on this.

Caint cóir

BroomBurner wrote: »

The PS was due a payrise in line with inflation, yet everyone was chomping at the bit to get it stopped. quote]

This thread has developed into a petty arguement over who's getting more money, the Public or private sector. The public sector should never have accepted this in the first place!!!!

markpb

Caint cóir wrote: »

I fully understand the anger if this pay rise goes to those who are already earning inflated wage packets, but if this pay rise is directed toward BoI staff who are due a wage increase in line with inflation, I think it is totally justified.

I'm not sure their wages were changing in line with inflation. The national wage agreement was signed at a time of inflation. We're now in a recession so deflation, if not already here, will be here soon. What's the point of paying someone a 3.5% increase when prices are falling?