Home insulation scheme unveiled

BendiBus

Minister Ryan has at last introduced a scheme for home insulation. €100 million and the possibility of 4000 jobs.

This is a very positive development as it reduces energy consumption with no reduction in living standards, reduces imports of energy, saves money on household budgets and creates jobs.

However I hope it is implemented in a workable fashion and doesn't result in price gouging by suppliers, or so much red tape that it's not worth the effort.

Keep an eye on the cost of insulation materials and installation and lets see if the price rockets once the scheme is in action.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0208/environment.html

Macha

I like the way the builders and developers were allowed to get away with building the most crappy houses imaginable over the last 20 years.

And it's the taxpayer, again, that has to step in and clean up the mess. *yawn* I'm getting tired of bailing out the construction industry

zod

what website would the grant info be launched on ?

robtri

taconnol wrote: »

I like the way the builders and developers were allowed to get away with building the most crappy houses imaginable over the last 20 years.

And it's the taxpayer, again, that has to step in and clean up the mess. *yawn* I'm getting tired of bailing out the construction industry

they only got away with it because joe soap was happy to buy them quicker than they could be built....
What have you done to already bail out the construction industry????

Heroditas

robtri wrote: »

they only got away with it because joe soap was happy to buy them quicker than they could be built....
What have you done to already bail out the construction industry????

We've propped up the banks

robtri

Heroditas wrote: »

We've propped up the banks

and the question was, what have you done to prop up the construction industry...

maniac101

Heroditas wrote: »

We've propped up the banks

A large proportion of those who've joined the dole queues in the last year were employed in the construction industry. The primary aim of the scheme is to help these people get back to work. This kind of work is carried out by small contractors and their employees. The scheme will be of little interest to the large developers that perhaps you're alluding to, and will do nothing to bail out property speculators. I don't think that Sean Dunne will be running an attic insulation business any time soon!

Hopefully this will be cost-neutral to the taxpayer, if they can find a way of managing the scheme such that the grant doesn't just push up the costs of insulation by the value of the grant.

Hats off to the green party on this one though. They've managed to seize the opportunity given by the economic slowdown, to implement one of their key proposed policies for CO2 emissions reduction. It's so good that even opposition parties are trying to claim credit for it! It's clear what part of the government is coming up with good ideas.

Heroditas

robtri wrote: »

and the question was, what have you done to prop up the construction industry...

Me personally, nothing yet.
However, this scheme is great in that it will help the small contractors carry out work. It really is a win-win. They get work, we get better quality homes, and all the time the government manages to reach their Kyoto Protocol targets.
They were expecting to pay out about €300m in fines because of exceeding the Kyoto targets. Looks like the money will be available for this scheme. Brilliant news.
Coupled with the forthcoming electricity price drop and it's good news for householders.

SteM

Heroditas wrote: »

Coupled with the forthcoming electricity price drop and it's good news for householders.

Don't want to go OT but would you mind filling me in on this?

Heroditas

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=39390-qqqx=1.asp

The Commission for Energy Regulation is expected to complete a review of electricity prices by the end of this month, and announce reduced prices by the end of March. The reductions are widely believed to be in the region of 10-15 per cent.

Cookie_Monster

Heroditas wrote: »

a review of electricity prices by the end of this month, and announce reduced prices by the end of March.

WTF does it take so long, prices could easily be reduced by next week if the regulator had any kind of backbone. Surely the "price review" should have already been carried out months ago when oil first fell:mad:

Oldtree

DOEHLG announcement today:

http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/News/MainBody,19454,en.htm

SEI links:

http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Pilot_Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/

http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Warmer_Homes_Scheme/

deadhead13

Scheme already exists for the over 65s

Macha

robtri wrote: »

and the question was, what have you done to prop up the construction industry...

Where to start?

-the recent announcement of the HomeChoice Loan scheme by the government that will cost €500m tax payers' money
-as someone else mentioned, the thousands of ex-construction workers now on the dole
-the loans to developers like Dunne that will now be paid for indirectly through the bank bailouts
-recently announced €94m scheme to build social housing (why the feck do we keep selling it off at knock-down prices???)

Then other indirect props that have come at a high cost to the rest of society:
-The failure of the government to enforce higher building regulations
-the failure of the government to enforce proper lending practices both to developers and home-owners
-fuelling of the property market to ridiculous levels ie property bubble?

I'm not saying the scheme is a bad thing but so much of the housing stock has been built to such low levels of energy efficiency and it was totally avoidable.

ascottdub

Hi,
Has anyone else noticed that with this great new scheme you must use a contractor?

Seems to me that you'd be cheaper to insulate an attic yourself than go down this road.

You don't see them trying to help the average joe by helping with materials.

Another scam I think!!! Anyone else???

spatchco

ascottdub,have to agree to the use of the word scam,i have read on this site and other web sites that trying to insulate my type of house built in 1964 is a complete waste of time ,trying to fill 9 in cavity with liquid filler is useless,and i would need at least 6 inch of insulation on inside walls which would make the rooms so much smaller at least,in my time this type of insulation as shown on news is not a succes, think i will sit tight for now and wait and see what happens

silverharp

BendiBus wrote: »

with no reduction in living standards
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0208/environment.html

I'm not knocking it per say but unless the money is coming from Europe, it has to show up somewhere as higher taxes or higher borrowing.

ascottdub

Oh, a 1964 house. Thats sounds like a losing battle. Keep it up though, you'll think of something.

I know the idea is to get people back to work, but I see a few things happening here.

The contractors will charge a bloody fortune, and some will be rip off artists and not do the job properly as we hear time & time again. It's already happened with the BER cert as I'm sure you've noticed. Different prices, startling differences in results rating, and all on 1 house

The materials in turn will go up in price to highway robbery

The paperwork will be full of so much red tape that people won't bother.

But yet, if your someone who is great at handy work, god forbid they'd give you a dig out.

Sounds alot like the affordable housing scheme that ONLY applies to NEW houses (which are built like crap I might add), that are bailing out the builders

I just want to know how low to bid on houses? I think I'll be brave and go in at 200K less. Walls need insulating, hence why I thought this scheme might benefit me. NOT!!!!
I'll probably be laughed at, but nothing to lose

BendiBus

silverharp wrote: »

I'm not knocking it per say but unless the money is coming from Europe, it has to show up somewhere as higher taxes or higher borrowing.

The money would be coming indirectly from the Middle East & Russia via lower imports of fossil fuels. Spend €100M on insulation, save €101M on natural gas and Ireland inc. is in profit. Not to mention the savings on dole, increased income tax, VAT etc. brought about by additional economic activity.

I haven't looked at the details yet, but from anything I've read so far (including this thread) the red tape and rules make it ineffective

I wonder if take up is low enough, and media coverage high enough, might the rules be relaxed?

If this guy is right, just the requirement for a Before & After BER assessment makes it more expensive to insulate your attic then DIY.

Edit: I think maybe the link above is mixing up the cost of a BER with the grant for one.

What does a BER assessment usually cost?

Húrin

BendiBus wrote: »

Minister Ryan has at last introduced a scheme for home insulation. €100 million and the possibility of 4000 jobs.

A good step which they need to take much further. When they're insulating houses that were built over the last couple of decades, they ought to make the developer foot some of the bill, and that 100m would stretch further.

Heroditas

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

WTF does it take so long, prices could easily be reduced by next week if the regulator had any kind of backbone. Surely the "price review" should have already been carried out months ago when oil first fell:mad:

About 5% of the electricity in this country is generated from oil. A study of gas prices and coal is needed.
Gas has not fallen as quickly or as much as oil.
There should be a large enough drop that will mostly negate the rise from last year (fingers crossed)

There also looks like there will be a review into gas supplies as well so we may see our Bord Gáis bills drop too in a while.

Anyway, back to the original topic ..... if savings are made on home heating with gas being burnt and electricity wasted, the country will meet its Kyoto targets for 2012 and will not have to pay fines of several hundred million €
That's where the money for this will come from. It really does pay for itself and it's a fantastic idea. Ryan is currently the only minister who is doing any sort of a half-decent job IMO

silverharp

Heroditas wrote: »

Anyway, back to the original topic ..... if savings are made on home heating with gas being burnt and electricity wasted, the country will meet its Kyoto targets for 2012 and will not have to pay fines of several hundred million €
That's where the money for this will come from. It really does pay for itself and it's a fantastic idea. Ryan is currently the only minister who is doing any sort of a half-decent job IMO

you could argue that as we will probably have 20% unemployment by then so we will have a pretty good chance of meeting the tagets. I guess see if the scheme is well run and doesnt lead to higher prices being pocketed by the companies/suppliers involved.

onedmc

robtri wrote: »

they only got away with it because joe soap was happy to buy them quicker than they could be built....
What have you done to already bail out the construction industry????

That like saying Hitler got away with what he did coz the German people let him.

robtri

onedmc wrote: »

That like saying Hitler got away with what he did coz the German people let him.

Actually its is a bit...... but thats a political debate more than a green one...
all I am saying is that the reason houses got built crappily is because people where willing to buy them that way....Most people go into business to make money and as much of it as possible.... builders are no different...
why would a builder want to spend a lot of extra money and not get as much profit when constructing these houses.....

luckat

I'm about to get my attic insulated in any case, and was delighted to hear about the grant. But the roofer who's doing the work (while separately doing other roof-fixing work) shook his head.

He's working on the house of a Green at the moment and had the grant and its system explained to him. Apparently you're required to get a BER done on the house before it's insulated (€300! Ka-ching!) and then a second BER done *after* the insulation (€300! Ka-ching! Ka-ching!)

He's going to apply for contractor status anyway - after all, if someone's getting a large job done on a roof it mightn't make much difference - but he advised me that it would only add to the cost of the job for me, and not save me money. Pfft. FF. Greens...

Heroditas

luckat wrote: »

He's working on the house of a Green at the moment and had the grant and its system explained to him. Apparently you're required to get a BER done on the house before it's insulated (€300! Ka-ching!) and then a second BER done *after* the insulation (€300! Ka-ching! Ka-ching!)

He's going to apply for contractor status anyway - after all, if someone's getting a large job done on a roof it mightn't make much difference - but he advised me that it would only add to the cost of the job for me, and not save me money. Pfft. FF. Greens...

Does the BER have to be done by a different person to the buidling contractor?
Say for example I'm a contractor who will carry out the work - couldn't I offer the pre and post BER as an extra for a bargain price, say €50?
Might get more work that way

Carlow52

luckat wrote: »

...... Apparently you're required to get a BER done on the house before it's insulated (€300! Ka-ching!) and then a second BER done *after* the insulation (€300! Ka-ching! Ka-ching!).....

Not true.

The BER is optional.
See http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Pilot_Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/

<<There is also a grant for households who choose to get a Building Energy Rating (BER) assessment Before and After the works are completed>>

PRTFPR

Ordinary man

I intend getting the cavity walls of my house filled but i see the grant is available for 400 but the minimum grant must be over 500. I insulated my attic last year so thats not needed. No joy for me then:mad:

luckat

Carlow52 wrote: »

Not true.

The BER is optional.
See http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Pilot_Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/

<<There is also a grant for households who choose to get a Building Energy Rating (BER) assessment Before and After the works are completed>>

PRTFPR

I think not. On that site http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Pilot_Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/homeowner/ it says:

When can I get the work done?
In accordance with the scheme's Terms and Conditions, Grant Approval must be in place prior to any purchase of materials or commencement of works is undertaken. Since the scheme is not currently open for application you should not undertake any works yet. If you have already done so, then unfortunately you will not be eligible for a grant.

However, the Before BER can be done ahead of Grant Approval and could prove beneficial for homeowners who are uncertain about their options or what to get done first.

Carlow52

The BER is optional.

What ur link is saying is that u can get the first BER done before grant approval. This is the only work that can be done before Grant Approval.

luckat

We shall see. I've emailed to ask.

luckat

Six days later and still no reply. Overworked civil servants ftw.

kasper

to avail of a grant for insulation you must use a contractor that is registered with sustainable energy ireland but the havent got enough contractor yet i rang a week ago and they were supposed to send out a form to register i am still waiting , on older houses a 27mm thermal liner board should make a huge improvement ,the builders arent at fault for bad ratings for older houses the engineers and architects set the specs

hick

I emailed the SEI, Emaon Ryan and John Gormley to ask about the BER
John Gormley came back within 24hours to say he in't have the details but would follow it up, 3 days later I got a official answer from the SEI... here it is...

Dear Hick

Thank you for your feedback regarding the recently announced Home Energy Saving scheme – it is always welcome.

The first point you make relates to the before and after BER – the key point to be made here is that the before and after BER is in fact totally discretionary, at the choosing of the homeowner. It is NOT a compulsory element.

Where a homeowner is confident and content to decide on the measures they require in their home then they are free to do so and are not in any way compelled to undertake a BER. However there are many homeowners who may feel intimidated or confused at the options before them and in particular as to what might best work in their home. In that situation the homeowner would benefit greatly from having a BER done and using the accompanying advisory report to guide and inform their choices of what measures to undertake. A follow-on or after BER, will give them further confidence of the benefits accruing from the works done. In that situation SEI is happy to grant aid the combined before and after BER as it will likely underpin people securing more appropriate and comprehensive solutions to improve the energy performance of their homes.

You also use the grant for attic insulation as an example in your costs calculation. It is important to be aware that homeowners must complete measures that result in a minimum grant of €500. This means that a home owner undertaking attic insulation must be doing it in combination with one of the other insulation or heating measures in order to qualify for a grant under the scheme.

Thanking you again for your feedback and if you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.



Simone ***

Programme Manager
Home Energy Saving scheme
Sustainable Energy Ireland

luckat

Hmm, so they won't give you a grant if you're just insulating. Totally bats, imho. Bats in their attic.

cormie

My mam has been on about getting insulation, the house was built in the early 80's I think. Windows aren't double glazed but she doesn't have the money for new windows, just attic insulation really. What can she do to get a grant? She has somebody who was made redundant from one of the biggest insulation companies lined up to do the attic at a good price (he's part of the family). Would it be more expensive for her to go the grant route since a contractor will probably charge much more? What options does she have? Any help appreciated

hick

average 3 bed semi d should cost no more than €700 to insulate with 300mm of Fibreglass or rockwool.

The issue indeed is that you have to apply for two or more of the items to get over the €500 minimum grant claim. I do agree this is an issue and will prevent those who most needed it from getting started.

Replacing the boiler may be an option, a mid level A rated boiler replacement would cost €1400 installed so you get half that back with the €700 grant, these are the two options I'm going for.

I'm mailing them back to give them feedback on the minimum grant requirement, if I hear anything I'll post.

luckat

The boiler is a thought; my boiler is 20 years old, and I'm told that it may not last. Or it may. I'm also told that the new ones may not be as long-lasting as the old ones. Hm. Hm.

hick

I would argue they are not built as well they are very effiecient and if you service it regularly you should get at least 10-15 years out of it, and I'd much prefer that the an older one that I kept having to get fixed.

luckat

hick wrote: »

I would argue they are not built as well they are very effiecient and if you service it regularly you should get at least 10-15 years out of it, and I'd much prefer that the an older one that I kept having to get fixed.

My old one has only been fixed once - it needed a small part. Apart from that it's chugged along happily since 1989.

hick

ah yeh in most cases that's fine, but some old boilers aren't as fortunate.
but in my case I've a boiler that's about 7 years old and while it's fine and I've only had one very minor problem, but I checked it out and it's a D rated boiler so I could save a couple of hundred quid a year by changing it, and if I can get the scheme to pay for half of it, even better.

you can check out how good/poor you boiler perfomance is here
http://www.sedbuk.com/

holdfast

Just a few points here this scheme is a good idea for everyone that can avail of it. Yes I am an Energy engineer before I start. I worked on the pilot scheme last year and you would be surprised what can be done even with a 1964 house. Don’t forget the boiler can be ungraded in this grant.

Don’t blame the engineers it was the government that set standards for insulation after the builders and developers had their way. Thankfully the green have changed this practice. Most builders could not tell what is required in terms of building standards. The days for poor workmanship are coming to end and all builders and tradesmen will be required to work higher standards. (I am not picking on them but the need for up skilling was never high on Irish building game.)

Anyone should get a good BER assessor (creditable background) and the cert should cost no more than 300 euro for the before and after cert. Of which 200 is grant aided.

All I am saying this looks like a win, win situation for everyone, home owner, contractor and country. This fact should be remembered by everyone. No one is suppose to come out on top. Rant over Sorry !

luckat

Why in the name of the sweet living Jesus don't they just give a straight grant for insulation without requiring you to do other work?

I'm not applying because of this, and the roofer who's working on my roof says he's not going to apply for contractor status - too fiddly, too much admin.

If the government want people to insulate, they should make it simple and attractive.

Another blooper by the Greens.

overmantle

I agree. We bought attic insulation in B & Q at half price and are putting it down ourselves. It's got to be cheaper than a contractot, even with the grant factored in. Insulating the walls is a different matter. A DIY job beyond me, I'm afraid.

bobbbb

A guy who lives near my mothers house started insulating peoples attics about 2 years ago. You buy the Insulation and he'll do it for you for €100.

So i got my mothers attic insulated for about €200 total.

This whole green initiative seems like a complete scam to me. As are most of their ideas. Idiots. Bring on the election.

hick

overmantle wrote: »

I agree. We bought attic insulation in B & Q at half price and are putting it down ourselves. It's got to be cheaper than a contractot, even with the grant factored in. Insulating the walls is a different matter. A DIY job beyond me, I'm afraid.

I went to heatons and priced up the insulation, to get 300mm in my attic was going to cost €620 to buy and do myself, I bargined a contractor down to €650

I'm very happy to pay them €30 to do the install plus remove/dipose any old stuff, plus clean up

Shop around there's ones out there who are very competitive

Carlow52

hick wrote: »

I went to heatons and priced up the insulation, to get 300mm in my attic was going to cost €620 to buy and do myself, I bargined a contractor down to €650

I'm very happy to pay them €30 to do the install plus remove/dipose any old stuff, plus clean up

Shop around there's ones out there who are very competitive

just make sure what u say in Heatons is the same as what is being put in from a thermal efficiency point of view.

on the math: 620 is about 510 pre vat so assume a 10% trade discount: 460, add on 13% supply and fit vat to bring it to 520 so he could be doing it for 130 euro 'profit' so depends how long it takes.[ In Capetown 130 euro is about 2 weeks pay for someone who 'lives' in a township#

As a matter of interest what area are u doing?

gears

luckat wrote: »

Why in the name of the sweet living Jesus don't they just give a straight grant for insulation without requiring you to do other work?

I'm not applying because of this, and the roofer who's working on my roof says he's not going to apply for contractor status - too fiddly, too much admin.

If the government want people to insulate, they should make it simple and attractive.

Another blooper by the Greens.[/QUOTE

I was just reading over some old posts and noticed this.

All that is required to be a registered contractor is filling out a short form and suppling details of contractors insurance and have a tax clearance cert. Lack of insurance and non-tax compliance maybe a reason why many "contractors" will not register.

This post is not directed at the poster I've quoted, I'd just like to point out that most contractors will get registered as there is so little work for many they can't afford to ignore any potential work. Also it may be a way to check the credentials of a contractor, at least from the point of view of insurance and tax compliance.

hick

Carlow52 wrote: »

just make sure what u say in Heatons is the same as what is being put in from a thermal efficiency point of view.

on the math: 620 is about 510 pre vat so assume a 10% trade discount: 460, add on 13% supply and fit vat to bring it to 520 so he could be doing it for 130 euro 'profit' so depends how long it takes.[ In Capetown 130 euro is about 2 weeks pay for someone who 'lives' in a township#

As a matter of interest what area are u doing?

The material is exactly the same, i made sure of that and check the R values on both, and even weighed up the pro's and cons of rockwool and sheepswool to boot (Sheepswool is my favorite but I wait till I build before I spend that much)

With reagrds to the area it's circa 60sqm

Don't really get your point on the €130...as I pointed out for DIY it would cost me €620, I can get a grant via the contractor for €250 off his price of €650 so It'll cost me €400 in the end, saving €220 versus diy

have inspecte some of the Woodies/B&Q type offers and the quality of insulation is average at best

Carlow52

was not aware that it was a grant job: the 130 wasa stab at his profit

what else are u doing as the min spend is 500 under new scheme?

Thanks for area: so just over 10 a sqm.

hick

np, going for the boiler replacement also, got a quote just before this was announced for €1400 for a A rated version, grant is €700 there which is great, also thinking about getting the walls pumped