Easy Way to Soften the Recession

OhNoYouDidn't

We should scour the Western seaboard for mineral deposits, hopefully oil or gas, nationalise the field and create thousands of jobs and the revenue generated could cover most of the holes in the public finances.

Oh, wait..... :mad:

jimmmy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We should scour the Western seaboard for mineral deposits, hopefully oil or gas, nationalise the field and create thousands of jobs and the revenue generated could cover most of the holes in the public finances.

Oh, wait..... :mad:

It would turn out like FAS during the tiger though...spend billions + get nothing.

OhNoYouDidn't

jimmmy wrote: »

It would turn out like FAS during the tiger though...spend billions + get nothing.

A risk I would have been willing to take.

As it is we have spent millions on policing and CPO's on land and gotten the square root of fcuk all benefit from the find

ManFromAtlantis

yeah thats right, we sold our soul and reserves to bp and the brits. fair play . we should support the mayo lads.

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

A risk I would have been willing to take.

As it is we have spent millions on policing and CPO's on land and gotten the square root of fcuk all benefit from the find

But we will get f*** all anyway, since the tribunal two (Bertie & Ray) were so generous with the oil & gas companies.
Oh wait we will get to buy the gas at market rates I believe was the deal.
and the gas will go to a few towns in Offaly.
Belately they agreed to pipe it to ones in Mayo.

There is a myth that this gas find will bring thousands of jobs, it doesn't take that many to run the system.

OhNoYouDidn't

jmayo wrote: »

But we will get f*** all anyway, since the tribunal two (Bertie & Ray) were so generous with the oil & gas companies.
Oh wait we will get to buy the gas at market rates I believe was the deal.

Thats kinda my point.....

jmayo wrote: »

There is a myth that this gas find will bring thousands of jobs, it doesn't take that many to run the system.

Hmmmm, even if I'm overoptimistic on the amount of drilling jobs that would be created, the revenue that the state could have generated here would be in the billions. Look at Norway. Money we badly need.

Thanks again FF, if more proof was needed that they are a cancer on Irish civic life.

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Thats kinda my point.....



Hmmmm, even if I'm overoptimistic on the amount of drilling jobs that would be created, the revenue that the state could have generated here would be in the billions. Look at Norway. Money we badly need.

Thanks again FF, if more proof was needed that they are a cancer on Irish civic life.

COULD was the most important word in your sentence.

Norway is way different since they didn't give the oil and gas away to foreign owned multinationals.
AFAIK Statoil is state owned which mean money comes into exchequer.

Of course if it was upto our state enterprises you would find the drilling money being used to give ministers haircuts in Florida or take private sector developers to trade fairs in Vegas.
Tis a great little country, for a few :rolleyes:

There was a debate on this over on Mayo forum, where the usual arguments were trotted out about how drilling is so expensive and the companies need to be rewarded etc etc etc.
Shell are pretty good at rewarding themselves.

turgon

Afaik the Norwegians charge a 50% tax on oil income.

If they had this tax in Ireland (like they used), no company would come as it would not be worth the money to dig at all.

As it is now Shell come here and employ people (income tax) and operate as a company (corporation tax). So even though the government dont get loads of revenue, its a lot more than they'd get if they charged a sur-charge like Norway

To ManFromAtlantis and jmayo: what part of that logic is so hard for yee to grasp??

It so Irish to just think: they're not charging like Norway so we must be getting robbed. If all the ignoramuses in this country put a bit of thought into things we could get on better.

murfie

Ya but the problem is the government and local council are having to listen to the minority of locals who dont like the idea and are holding up the entire process. I mean what was the original completion date of this project? it would probably be making money right now if they were allowed to complete with no restrictions. The government need to push this through!
Whatever the deal was with Shell thats old news now and cannot be changed but there will be some significant revenue to the exchequer on this, every little helps right now!

turgon

murfie wrote: »

Whatever the deal was with Shell thats old news now and cannot be changed but there will be some significant revenue to the exchequer on this, every little helps right now!

Unfortunately the very people who need to hear that are the smae people who always refuse to listen.

OhNoYouDidn't

turgon wrote: »

Afaik the Norwegians charge a 50% tax on oil income.

Wrong. Statoil are the state oil company who direct Sultan profits back into society. No recession there....

turgon wrote: »

If they had this tax in Ireland (like they used), no company would come as it would not be worth the money to dig at all.

They don't, so hence I'm saying we should have done it ourselves.

turgon wrote: »

As it is now Shell come here and employ people (income tax) and operate as a company (corporation tax). So even though the government dont get loads of revenue, its a lot more than they'd get if they charged a sur-charge like Norway

Unmitigated bull****. We make more from the shell arrangement given to them by Ray Burke than the Norwegians, Brits, Saudis, Russians etc? Catch a grip.

turgon wrote: »

It so Irish to just think: they're not charging like Norway so we must be getting robbed. If all the ignoramuses in this country put a bit of thought into things we could get on better.

You are the problem here. Bend over, grab the ankles and give out when people object to having the same done to them.

The Mayo gas if harnessed like industry standards would have Ireland out of this mess with ease. But yet again our leaders failed us.

murfie wrote: »

Ya but the problem is the government and local council are having to listen to the minority of locals who dont like the idea and are holding up the entire process. I mean what was the original completion date of this project? it would probably be making money right now if they were allowed to complete with no restrictions. The government need to push this through!
Whatever the deal was with Shell thats old news now and cannot be changed but there will be some significant revenue to the exchequer on this, every little helps right now!

Are you taking the piss? We get nothing. Not one cent. The rights were given away for a token fee and no money back. Not one other country anywhere in the world with natural resources has handed them away for nothing.

Don't you dare patronise the locals like that, the same people who have the worlds only onland untreated gas treatment plant in the world to deal with.

murfie

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Are you taking the piss? We get nothing. Not one cent. The rights were given away for a token fee and no money back. Not one other country anywhere in the world with natural resources has handed them away for nothing.

Don't you dare patronise the locals like that, the same people who have the worlds only onland untreated gas treatment plant in the world to deal with.

Will they not be selling to the Irish market? tax on sale of gas? Will the esb not be purchasing the gas for power generation? Will the employees that work on the refining plant not be paying income tax. Will those employees not be living locally and spending their money boosting the local economy?

And what reason exactly are the locals objecting to the gas pipe? I work in the industry, and I will tell you with 100% certainty that with today's technology, engineering standard and safety that these companies are required to practice there wont be any danger to locals! Don't allow the locals to patronise YOU with their scaremongering.

Your original post was saying we should explore and exploit the resource for the good of the country. I agree with you the deal FF made was a terrible one. But its what we got, so now lets maximise whatever benefits this will bring us instead of holding it up with planning hearings and court cases!

Cool Mo D

Statoil only arose long after foreign companies had shown Norway there was enough oil and gas to be worth while exploiting for themselves. They started out giving contracts to companies to exploit their resources for them - exactly like Ireland gave Shell. And it is far, far from a sure thing that Ireland has significant gas deposits - Corrib is pretty small actually.

And anyway, I hate all these "Easy/Quick way out of the Recession" type posts. Running a national get-rich-quick scheme of building as many houses as we could is what got us into all this trouble. It's time to recognise that there are no easy answers or quick solutions, we are in for a lot of pain, wage drops, and unemployment, until we can get our economy back on a solid footing.

There is no easy way out, and thinking that there is is what got us into this mess in the first place.

IRISH RAIL

Introduce 24 hour drinking with a small increase on the tax on alcohol but only from licenced pubs and clubs not off licences let them open untill 1230 again.
The ensuing public order problems to be dealt with like the uk where they have fixed penalty orders say 300 euro for a minor offence up to 1000 for say street fighting with mandatory 3 months imprisionment if they dont pay up.
a complete stop to these stupid development plans that waste millions, set up a state run building copany for these one that is not profit driven but will source materiels for what there worth the savings would pay for themselves as well as reemploying builders.
regulate td`s pay to the national agreement/average industrial wage. if everyone else can live off it then they can.
get rid of study groups pr men and any other ridicoulous drain on recources we know the country is fecked we dont need to spend millions on a group to tell us. instead have a small team of people who are outside the public sector look at all the wastage of money give them the power to enforce changes where necessery these people will work for average ind. wage also.
all government cars to be sold and nissan micras to be bought instead if the car is to have a garda escort then biffo can just get in the police car instead.
sell the government jet book seats on a partially owned airline called aer lingus ( thats like margaret heffernan not shopping in dunnes stores but will spend her money shipping in bread from the states)
Get all the money mary harney has charged to the taxpayer back ( I remember something about 10 000 euro for sweets on the government jet a few years back.) also dont give her a nissan give her a pushbike she can be the first to support the new scheme to get everyone on bycicles (not buses because they will all be withdrawn by then)

OhNoYouDidn't

murfie wrote: »

Your original post was saying we should explore and exploit the resource for the good of the country. I agree with you the deal FF made was a terrible one. But its what we got, so now lets maximise whatever benefits this will bring us instead of holding it up with planning hearings and court cases!

Rubbish. One corrupt politician has handed over the keys. Its dispicable and I am doubly furious now that what I see could have been done with the money.

Shrugging ones shoulders and going 'sure thats FF' is not acceptible. Yet again FF's avarice has caused havoc.

jmayo

turgon wrote: »

Afaik the Norwegians charge a 50% tax on oil income.

If they had this tax in Ireland (like they used), no company would come as it would not be worth the money to dig at all.

As it is now Shell come here and employ people (income tax) and operate as a company (corporation tax). So even though the government dont get loads of revenue, its a lot more than they'd get if they charged a sur-charge like Norway

To ManFromAtlantis and jmayo: what part of that logic is so hard for yee to grasp??

It so Irish to just think: they're not charging like Norway so we must be getting robbed. If all the ignoramuses in this country put a bit of thought into things we could get on better.

Ah wipee lets roll out the red carpet for Shell. they are doing such a favour by coming here and taking our resources out of the ground.
Oh if we question the deals done by the tribunal two (Ray "never did anything for nothing" Burke and "no account but cash" Ahern) then we are ignorant.
Oh perish the thought we question our betters and thus in the know like yourself.
It's the fact that we haven't asked questions that has this country in the shi** it is in :mad:

Maybe the fact that gas and oil resources are getting fewer and less accessible means that the resources we do have should be sold at a higher rate to outside multinationals, did that little thought ever cross your mind ?

murfie wrote: »

Will they not be selling to the Irish market? tax on sale of gas? Will the esb not be purchasing the gas for power generation? Will the employees that work on the refining plant not be paying income tax. Will those employees not be living locally and spending their money boosting the local economy?

And what reason exactly are the locals objecting to the gas pipe? I work in the industry, and I will tell you with 100% certainty that with today's technology, engineering standard and safety that these companies are required to practice there wont be any danger to locals! Don't allow the locals to patronise YOU with their scaremongering.

Your original post was saying we should explore and exploit the resource for the good of the country. I agree with you the deal FF made was a terrible one. But its what we got, so now lets maximise whatever benefits this will bring us instead of holding it up with planning hearings and court cases!

Oh yeah they are selling to the Irish market at market rates, so no great deal there.
And before your start with your condescending attitude about how you work in the industry and know best, how would you like to live a few hundred metres from raw natural gas pipeline.
It was untreated gas not refined in any way AFAIK.
If it was such a great initial plan, how come they cut the pressures after the locals complained and throw up a shi* storm ?

The whole thing has been mishandled from day one and has shown how our little country's leaders bend over backwards for Shell multinational.

If the government were so concerned about keeping jobs in locality why not restructure Bellacorrick and try and turn it into a small gas generation plant ?
The network infrastructure was already in place.

thebman

Well a valuation should be done on the oil and gas deposits to see if its worthwhile putting a tax on it or if it wouldn't be feasible for the deposits there.

If it isn't worthwhile for Shell to do it with a high tax on it then it might not be worthwhile for the state to purchase all the equipment and do it themselves.

murfie

jmayo wrote: »

Oh yeah they are selling to the Irish market at market rates, so no great deal there.
And before your start with your condescending attitude about how you work in the industry and know best, how would you like to live a few hundred metres from raw natural gas pipeline.
It was untreated gas not refined in any way AFAIK.
If it was such a great initial plan, how come they cut the pressures after the locals complained and throw up a shi* storm ?

Condescending attitude?! How about an educated view. I do live within a few hundred meters of liquid and gas pipeline. Houston, Texas being the central hub for majority of gas and oil entering the US there are pipes everywhere. Some 100 years old and still in service. And running safely. Makes no difference if its "raw" gas, it has a lesser chance of corroding the pipe than liquid petroleum products. the pressures running in the pipes are normal for industry standards, 1750 psi. Its design pressure is 5000 psi. I would be more worried about the Bord gais pipes down south than this one!!

Jmayo, I am from Mayo also. So I saw first hand what went on with this. I have a friend who was working laying the pipe who was let go due to the hold ups in the construction. I am not trying to come across condescending but there is to much incorrect information flying around and scaremongering as i said with this pipe.

Red Sleeping Beauty

I think Obama said something like this, but so did Marx...
redistribute the wealth. There's no shortage of it in this country.

titan18

We should have invested in Green Energy a few years ago like the Swedes.We should be attempting to become oil-free rather than looking for more oil to hold on to.

Red Sleeping Beauty

We should just sell share in Ireland to the Swedish to be perfectly honest
Hire some of their guys to come here and run the show.

djpbarry

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Hmmmm, even if I'm overoptimistic on the amount of drilling jobs that would be created, the revenue that the state could have generated here would be in the billions. Look at Norway.

Let’s not get carried away – Norway’s proven gas reserves are far, far larger than Ireland’s.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The Mayo gas if harnessed like industry standards would have Ireland out of this mess with ease.

What mess are you referring to?

djpbarry

jmayo wrote: »

Norway is way different since they didn't give the oil and gas away to foreign owned multinationals.
AFAIK Statoil is state owned which mean money comes into exchequer.

Not entirely true – the Norwegian government is the majority shareholder in the parent company, StatoilHydro.

jmayo wrote: »

Ah wipee lets roll out the red carpet for Shell. they are doing such a favour by coming here and taking our resources out of the ground.

You think the state would do a better job?

jmayo

djpbarry wrote: »

Not entirely true – the Norwegian government is the majority shareholder in the parent company, StatoilHydro.
You think the state would do a better job?

Sadly as we are finding out with oither state operations, and as I stated somewhere above, the budget for state oil exploration would end up being used by ministers, high ranking public servants and private sector connected people to organise trips to Texas, Bahrain, Dubai, Rio under the pretence they were investigating oil exploration :rolleyes: