Public Sector Unions to Take Action

SkepticOne

EF wrote: »

Neither sector can survive without the other really. The country as a whole has not taken a hit yet though. There are still tremendously wealthy people out there who can afford to contribute a lot more and who are not. There are those earning decent incomes who have had to pay the income levy as everyone else but that is all. And there are those who have lost everything.

I would argue that the country as a whole has indeed taken a hit. Not everyone in the country has taken an equal hit, I agree: the very wealthy, for example. Others might argue in addition that most public sector employees have been largely spared the worst of the downturn to date though this levy begins to address this.

There will be cutbacks in the public sector there is no doubt about, it will happen regardless of who is in government. And those cuts will be transparent for all to see.

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

The pension levy is a start. €2billion is not a figure to be sniffed at. Would you rather a 10-25% pay cut as many in the private sector are having to take as basic necessity to keep their already-endangered jobs? How about lay offs and 100% pay cuts?

To date, the only message that the public sector unions have conveyed is abdication of responsibility. Your unions are your worst enemy. They are the ones failing you, not the government that now finds itself with almost zero options other than hard choices. There is no book-cooking available. No extra reserve funds. The state coffers are unable to maintain the lifestyle to which the civil service has grown accustomed. The coffers have dried up and it it is. That. Simple.

I accept that cuts will happen but with any luck no jobs will be lost in the public sector and any cuts necessary will be through natural wasteage, the non payment of the agreement towards 2016, which will be paid by some in the private sector, a freeze on new entrants and promotions and the pension levy.

A 25% paycut for all public servants will achieve...? More money pumped into the banks which no one can really afford to borrow as day to day spending is still too high

K-9

EF wrote: »

I accept that cuts will happen but with any luck no jobs will be lost in the public sector and any cuts necessary will be through natural wasteage, the non payment of the agreement towards 2016, which will be paid by some in the private sector, a freeze on new entrants and promotions and the pension levy.

A 25% paycut for all public servants will achieve...? More money pumped into the banks which no one can really afford to borrow as day to day spending is still too high

Our National Income has dropped by 9/10% already. Those suggestions will still mean the Public Service pay bill will rise as a % of GNP.

K-9

EF wrote: »

I accept that cuts will happen but with any luck no jobs will be lost in the public sector

Sums up the attitude really.

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

Ummmm .... yes. It has. Well, outside of the civil service it has overall. I dare you to go down to Limerick or Waterford or Dublin airport (to pick three obvious examples) and spout that woefully out-of-touch statement.



The cynic in me will flippantly point out that none of them have been civil servants to date.

But seriously, you are going to sit there and argue that because sub-sections of the country haven't been hit by wholesale redundancy and massive drops in income that the country is still doing well? I want whatever drugs are you on because they sound like fun! I'll need to see if they're available on a social-welfare scheme since I'm due to lose my job next week. I wasn't asked if I wanted to take a pay-cut. But of course, the country is still doing well by your logic, so what would I know.

Im sorry to hear you are due to lose your job, I wouldnt wish it upon anyone! The same way that many of my friends and relatives have lost their jobs.
I couldnt agree more that the country is in a deep mess! I for one didn't benefit from the good years, which is irrelevant, all I have is a job. I will take the pain but like Brendan Gleeson said, I wont be made a fool of.

It is the bursting of a bubble which everyone got wrapped up in and those who risked most will be hit hardest. For those who are saddled with debt there will be very tough years ahead, this is the culture that existed. I dont think the answer is to lengthen the dole queues any more than is necessary though, a fair hit should and will be taken by all

SkepticOne

EF wrote: »

A 25% paycut for all public servants will achieve...?

...a more competitive economy less weighed down with taxes and better able to export to the world.

Lemming

EF wrote: »

A 25% paycut for all public servants will achieve...? More money pumped into the banks which no one can really afford to borrow as day to day spending is still too high

Congratulations on completely missing the argument. To date civil servants have been asked for circa 7 odd % towards the pension levy. Anecdotally (because I don't have figures to hand), many people in the private sector are seeing pay cuts upwards of 10% and erring towards 25% it would appear at the sharp end of the wedge, discounting the more extreme but alarmingly frequent 100% cut.

So, would you rather 7% or 10-25%? Or how about 100%

In short, you are being given a relatively easy ride (as unfairly as it's been implemented) compared with what's going on outside in the private sector, which is nothing short of a f*cking bloodbath inside a black-hole. And it shows absolutely no signs of abaiting and in fact only getting worse. Speaking from personal experience, the work is there but nobody is hiring. I'm looking four weeks now and I've had very few interviews to show for it. Oh everbody apparently loves the CV and any interviews or technical tests are apparently impressive, but ... nobody's hiring because the money isn't there.

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

So, would you rather 7% or 10-25%? Or how about 100%

.

Ill pay whatever I can afford, simple as. If I had a house id sell it even but as a civil servant I cant afford one. The Dell workers, waterford crystal workers, SR technics, Bulmers employees would still be in a job today if the cost of living in this country wasn't so expensive and paycuts could occur without leading to chronic repossessions

Lemming

EF wrote: »

I for one didn't benefit from the good years, which is irrelevant, all I have is a job.

I benefitted from the good years in so much as I had a job. Do I have a house, stock shares, and homes in Barbados and the Solomons? No. I, like most, did not see this "Celtic Tiger" often mentioned, never encountered.

I will take the pain but like Brendan Gleeson said, I wont be made a fool of.

Bit late for that. This entire country is a laughing stock and was played like a concerto for piano for fools.

EF wrote: »

Ill pay whatever I can afford, simple as.

Well, herein lies the rub. Currently, the rest of the country is paying more than it can afford for the public sector wage-bill. Regardless of whatever impassioned speechs or tales of woe get mentioned, that single point is undeniable and inescapable.

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

I benefitted from the good years in so much as I had a job. Do I have a house, stock shares, and homes in Barbados and the Solomons? No. I, like everyone else did not see this "Celtic Tiger" often mentioned, never encountered.



Bit late for that. This entire country is a laughing stock and was played like a concerto for piano for fools.

You can't be in too much debt so? Which is but little consolation.
And the conductor of this concerto (FF) are the one's currently with the task of getting us out of this mess. God help us all!

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

Well, herein lies the rub. Currently, the rest of the country is paying more than it can afford for the public sector wage-bill. Regardless of whatever impassioned speechs or tales of woe get mentioned, that single point is undeniable and unescapable.

And we're all paying more than we can afford to recapitalise the banks. The future of this nation lies in the books of AIB and BOI! At least we know what the public sector pay bill is!!

SkepticOne

EF wrote: »

And the conductor of this concerto (FF) are the one's currently with the task of getting us out of this mess.

Except that this march is only happening because the public sector is now being affected. The march is not about FF's mismanagement of the economy which has been going on for years but because the public sector is being asked to take a (minor) share of the hit that the country as a whole is taking.

P. Breathnach

Lemming wrote: »

So, would you rather 7% or 10-25%?

Somewhere between 7% and 25% there is a tipping point between concern for the general good and the expression of spite.

ParkRunner

SkepticOne wrote: »

Except that this march is only happening because the public sector is now being affected. The march is not about FF's mismanagement of the economy which has been going on for years but because the public sector is being asked to take a (minor) share of the hit that the country as a whole is taking.

If this march contributes in any way to a general election I will be glad, even if it doesnt make a difference to the levy, which I dont expect it will.
Does the private sector think FF should lead this nation into the future?

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

Sums up the attitude really.

Please see the rest of my quote as to alternatives to job losses

Lemming

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Somewhere between 7% and 25% there is a tipping point between concern for the general good and the expression of spite.

I'm not trying to be spiteful P, I'm simply pointing out the reality outside of the civil service. 10-25% isn't being wishing spite, it's happening to an awful lot of unfortunate workers right now in the private sector.

Being spiteful would be insisting that the public sector take higher pay-cuts. Currently, they're being asked to take what is in comparison a far lighter level of pain than that already being experienced and endured by the private sector. And to date they have sent a message of resistance and apparent abdication of responsibility to others.

K-9

EF wrote: »

I accept that cuts will happen but with any luck no jobs will be lost in the public sector and any cuts necessary will be through natural wasteage, the non payment of the agreement towards 2016, which will be paid by some in the private sector, a freeze on new entrants and promotions and the pension levy.

A 25% paycut for all public servants will achieve...? More money pumped into the banks which no one can really afford to borrow as day to day spending is still too high

Same answer, what alternatives to job losses?

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

Same answer, what alternatives to job losses?

So your solution is more people on the dole?

SkepticOne

EF wrote: »

If this march contributes in any way to a general election I will be glad, even if it doesnt make a difference to the levy, which I dont expect it will.
Does the private sector think FF should lead this nation into the future?

Opinion polls suggest they don't. I think many feel that the government has been too soft over the years with the public sector in order to buy votes. A government that takes a tougher line might prove popular.

I think this march will swing the general population further in this direction which might be unfortunate since there are other groups in addition to the public sector unions which I think need to be dealt with robustly.

K-9

EF wrote: »

So your solution is more people on the dole?

20% Pay cut?

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

Being spiteful would be insisting that the public sector take higher pay-cuts. Currently, they're being asked to take what is in comparison a far lighter level of pain than that already being experienced and endured by the private sector. And to date they have sent a message of resistance and apparent abdication of responsibility to others.

Even the unions, bar a few stragglers in the ranks, have accepted cuts are on the way. In fairness they have put forward an alternative which may work, which includes hits on the public sector. It is based on previous experiences in Scandinavia

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

20% Pay cut?

I might as well go on the dole so!...unless the Government would dare reduce social welfare!

K-9

EF wrote: »

I might as well go on the dole so!...unless the Government would dare reduce social welfare!

They will through entitlement cuts, 15 mths stamps cut to 12.

The Construction bubble as we all know was false.

The tax revenues from said bubble financed Public Sector Pay Rises.

So moaning about Banks and Govt. policy for the last 5 years includes moaning about pay increases in the same 5 years.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

They will through entitlement cuts, 15 mths stamps cut to 12.

The Construction bubble as we all know was false.

The tax revenues from said bubble financed Public Sector Pay Rises.

So moaning about Banks and Govt. policy for the last 5 years includes moaning about pay increases in the same 5 years.

Thats the public and private sector fked even more so if their social welfare payment cuts mean they wont meet their mortgage repayments.

Any pay increase over the last five years will be more than wiped out in the next few months thats for sure. Will exorbitant mortgage debt repayments be wiped out? I think not

Lemming

EF wrote: »

Even the unions, bar a few stragglers in the ranks, have accepted cuts are on the way. In fairness they have put forward an alternative which may work, which includes hits on the public sector. It is based on previous experiences in Scandinavia

Of course overlooking one incredibly and fundamentally important point concerning Norway, Sweden, and Finland;

They are wealthy countries because they have large-scale indigenous industries with which to prop up GNP/GDP that we simply do not have. We are brutally exposed to the whims of foreign markets with little recourse to fall back on.

K-9

EF wrote: »

Thats the public and private sector fked even more so if their social welfare payment cuts mean they wont meet their mortgage repayments.

Mortgage Interest supplement?

EF wrote:

Will exorbitant mortgage debt repayments be wiped out? I think not

Interest rate drops are going towards it.

EF wrote:

Any pay increase over the last five years will be more than wiped out in the next few months thats for sure.

How for the Public sector?

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

Of course overlooking one incredibly and fundamentally important point concerning Norway, Sweden, and Finland;

They are wealthy countries because they have large-scale indigenous industries with which to prop up GNP/GDP that we simply do not have. We are brutally exposed to the whims of foreign markets with little recourse to fall back on.

It's a pity we don't have a strong innovative indigenous private sector to fall back on and we have to resort to this. FF govt policy.

Lemming

EF wrote: »

It's a pity we don't have a strong innovative indigenous private sector to fall back on and we have to resort to this. FF govt policy.

You misunderstand me, although that's another thing we don't have - many homegrown Irish companies that are innovative and instead an overreliance on FDI.

I was referring to the Nordic countries well-developed primary & secondary industries. They are not overly reliant on tertiary (services) industry to generate income.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

Mortgage Interest supplement?



Interest rate drops are going towards it.



How for the Public sector?

Interest rates can drop to zero but people will still be unable to pay their mortgages with little incomes. Who will pay the mortgage interest supplement? The private sector? More taxes so and less competitiveness.

The public sector will have their past pay increases eroded partially through this pension levy anyway. No pay rises will be happening thats for sure and inflation will return. If you get your way the public sector pay bill will be reduced by 20% so that more than accounts for 5 years of pay increases. And while a pay cut of 20% is unlikely, inflation, tax increases, a pay pause and a pension levy certainly goes some of the way!

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

You misunderstand me, although that's another thing we don't have - many homegrown Irish companies that are innovative and instead an overreliance on FDI.

I was referring to the Nordic countries well-developed primary & secondary industries. They are not overly reliant on tertiary (services) industry to generate income.

Maybe this is an opportunity so for the private companies out there to exploit the natural resources of this country and be innovative perhaps? God knows alternative energy sources could be a hugely profitable business