Public Sector Unions to Take Action

mike65

I think the unions have to go back to the Government instead of striking. That is only going to be counter productive and deteriorate the situation further. The door is open.

This slanging match between the sectors is never going to solve the issue.

Tell the union leadership, the "class war" tone/language is blatant. They actually want this fight.

P. Breathnach

mike65 wrote: »

Tell the union leadership, the "class war" tone/language is blatant. They actually want this fight.

The function of a union leader is to represent the membership. If the members want something, the union leader has to make their case for them.

Some union leaders like tub-thumping, and they get noticed. Others are more restrained in their style. The public perception might be somewhat distorted by the more colourful leaders.

I don't believe that there are many union leaders who want a fight, perhaps not any. There are some who believe a fight is being imposed on them. There are people in the public sector, union leaders and union members, who believe the levy is unjust. I happen not to agree with them but a review of this thread will remind you how difficult it is to persuade them of a point of view like mine. [Persuasion is made more difficult by those whose style of debate is to launch intemperate attacks.]

Focusing again on the union leaders: there may be some who privately believe that the levy is an acceptable response to a crisis situation, but their private beliefs are just that, private: it is their job to advance their members' message.

mike65

I reckon they could take the heat out of this if they wanted to. Leading the rank and file off a cliff is not helping.

P. Breathnach

mike65 wrote: »

I reckon they could take the heat out of this if they wanted to.

To an extent, that is true. But only to a limited extent. I suspect that some union leaders might be quietly attempting that. It's not the sort of thing they do in the media, nor do the media pick up on it, because it doesn't sell papers.

Leading the rank and file off a cliff is not helping.

My principle of leadership: note what way the mob is surging, get out in front, and cry "follow me!"

raven136

dont work in the public sector but have friends and family that do and although they are angry i just cant see the public support being there.

Its tough times for everyone and i cant see an admin worker in the HSE being given support by someone who just lost their job in a factory.Just my opinion,could be wrong

Porkpie

Irish Independent, 9 February

"Unions have argued that the levy is weighted against the lower paid. Figures supplied by Impact, the main public sector union, show that a worker on €39,000 will pay €2,120 a year after tax, while a worker on €48,000 will pay €2,094.50 a year, because tax relief is higher for the better-paid employee."

Bottom line is that the Government made a balls of this pension levy. It wasn't properly thought out, and clearly hits those at the bottom of the pay scale the hardest. That's why I am against it. I don't mind making a contribution towards a recovery plan, as long as it is done in a fair way.

molloyjh

future_plans wrote: »

This slanging match between the sectors is never going to solve the issue.

I couldn't agree more. We are all in the same boat here regardless of sector. Having worked in both the private and public sector I find myself constantly defending one or the other depending on who I'm talking to. There is so much in the way of mis-understanding out there generally as to be scary. People are just casting their fingers about looking for someone to blame.

Regarding this pension levy, I am whole-heartedly opposed to it. I think it is incredibly unfair and an amazingly lazy and short-sighted solution. Future_plans above said that the public sector need to realise that the private sector don't have the job security that the public sector enjoys. However the problem with this is that not every private industry and most certainly not every private company is making job cuts. I know plenty of people in the private sector who are safe from cuts, even though its not being said. Yet somehow we should all take the public sector as one group and the private sector as another single group. It's just not that simple in reality though.

What this levy means is that I take home nearly 200 less every month. My OH however, who is secure in her position, doesn't get hit by this at all. I work in education at the moment, she in banking. Given that both of our positions are equally secure (and the reality is they are) why should I have to suffer this hit? In fact given that I am contributing to our society in a meaningful way with my job choice (as are nurses, Gardai etc) and my OH works in a financial institution (many if not all of whom bear some responsiblity for our present predicament) surely it is completely unfair to hit me so hard and go so easy on her.

And then of course there is Anglo Irish. Now that they are state-owned they have the same job security as the rest of us, yet they aren't being hit.

The other big issue I have is that the banks are all being labeled with one giant label. That too is over-simplification. Some banks were more conservative than others. I remember only 2 years ago AIB were being knocked for not being ready enough to lend to people. Now they are being knocked for lending too much. The reality here is that the smaller banks and some of the UK banks were far more irresponsible than the likes of AIB and BoI.That's not to absolve them of any and all responsibility, but it just means that each case needs to be looked on individually.

There's far too much of the "It's that groups fault" going on at the moment. We were all more than happy to use and abuse the Celtic Tiger while we could, we ignored the fact that it would all fall down around us and used lovely phrases like "soft landing" etc. And while we're all pointing at the private sector or the public sector or the banks, very few of us are pointing any fingers at the people who managed the country right into this without any forward planning for any form of downturn. For all the heat and flack the rest of us are getting (be it lay-offs or pension levies or whatever) FF are still in power and noone is making any moves to change that. Why!? Oh for us to be Icelandic or Greek and have the balls and power to actually put an end to this crap.

Lplated

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The function of a union leader is to represent the membership. If the members want something, the union leader has to make their case for them.

SIPTU seems to have a bit of a problem with what its members want - some two thirds of the members are private sector and only one third public - i wonder how they're going to assess a position to take on behalf of all their members...

Kimbot

Hillel wrote: »

What attracted you to the public service? Why did you not stay in the private sector, if it is better paid? Why don't you return to the private sector?

At the start it was a job when I needed one. Now I do actually give a cr@p about this country hence doing the job.
I wouldn't return to the private sector right now or in the immediate future because I like my job.

Darragh29 wrote: »

+100. I'm a private sector worker (self employed) and will be attending any protest or strike on this matter. Yes there is wastage in the public sector but I don't expect a cop or a nurse in this kip to take a 10% pay cut, which is what this public service levy is. Hopefully all workers will unite and resist and reject this pathethic attempt by a fat useless c*nt to play hard working Irish employees off against each other.

This levy is a pay cut, just worded in a manner that would make you think it isn't.

Porkpie wrote: »

Irish Independent, 9 February

"Unions have argued that the levy is weighted against the lower paid. Figures supplied by Impact, the main public sector union, show that a worker on €39,000 will pay €2,120 a year after tax, while a worker on €48,000 will pay €2,094.50 a year, because tax relief is higher for the better-paid employee."

Bottom line is that the Government made a balls of this pension levy. It wasn't properly thought out, and clearly hits those at the bottom of the pay scale the hardest. That's why I am against it. I don't mind making a contribution towards a recovery plan, as long as it is done in a fair way.

The Gov actually handed the unions a 1 page document after 4 odd days of discussion with roughly 6-8 lines of text and the chart of rate that were effected and told to take it and leave it. In all fairness its a joke that the gov didn't expain a thing to the unions.

Oh and just another note: not only did the Gov want this levy, they also wanted job cuts and pay cuts aswell.
So that would mean I get a pay cut and a huge pension levy if this goes ahead.

Darragh29

eoinbn wrote: »

So public sector works shouldn't share any of the burden? Interesting.

Personally I think the country is sunk. Nobody is interested in taking any hit on their income. Nobody wants to cut anything. We need to find €20b over the next 5 years and we have come unstuck on the first €1b. "We all need to put our shoulder to the wheel, BUT", and there is ALWAYS a but, and then they procede to say why they shouldn't be forced, or the group they represent, to pay the price.

So march, get the practice in. Within 18 months we will be Iceland and the only thing we will have to do is march and protest- so when the time come lets be good at it!!

I don't see why someone on the same wage as myself should be specifically targetted for a pay cut. Anyone on 40K or less is right now struggling to stay on top of their bills and this isn't the case now, it's been the case for the last 10 years. These are the same people who have been raped by developers and banks just because they had the audacity to want a roof over their head for their family???

Samson1 wrote: »

Well said Darragh29 & also BroomBurner. With all the IBEC types, FF spinners and people 'pretending' to be Public Servants on here whilst running down the Public Service, its pointless to have normal people viewing or responding to these threads. You know who you are, you are spinning an Employer's / Govt agenda & wasting your time - workers, public & private, see it for what it is.

It's time to stick together. What the f*ck is the point in generating more tax revenue when we have 2 government ministers spending 130K flying to Texas to makes the case for the retention of 1,900 Dell jobs??? If I tried to, I couldn't travel from here to Texas and spend that amount of money, what the f*ck in all that is holy, are these people thinking???

Can you in all seriousness expect any worker, self employed, private sector or public sector, to pay or accept a greater tax burden when every single day, we hear more stories of public money being utterly p*ssed all over the place, FAS junkets, golden handshakes for c*nts, regulators, and MUPPETS who have the country now lying on it's back with it's t*ts waving in the air???

K-9 wrote: »

Suggestions then, 10% tax rise in overall terms?

No need, invest the 7 Billion Euro being forklifted into AIB and BOI, into a new clean state bank. Give the public the option of investing in this new state bank and guarantee their investment. Use the new tier 1 capital (government 7 Billion plus Irish public share purchases in the bank), to invest in Irish businesses and to get people spending again... It isn't rocket science, it's just common sense. All we need is a little leadership and decency and common sense and this whole period would be very quickly behind us...

Spotnik

Considering Government pension levy is being brought in to save finances in difficult times. I can only assume that when the economy is back up and running in a more stable and recessionless environment the pension levy will be removed?

stevoman

also in actual fact the money rom this "levy" is going straight back into the exchequer and not any pension fund at all.

Kimbot

Spotnik wrote: »

Considering Government pension levy is being brought in to save finances in difficult times. I can only assume that when the economy is back up and running in a more stable and recessionless environment the pension levy will be removed?

There is no guarantee that it will be removed. The way I see it if the public service lay down now and let them take it then it will stay there for a long long time.

stevoman wrote: »

also in actual fact the money rom this "levy" is going straight back into the exchequer and not any pension fund at all.

Yeah, you pay more than double into your pension to still receive the same pension. It makes no sence at all.

pete

Lplated wrote: »

SIPTU seems to have a bit of a problem with what its members want - some two thirds of the members are private sector and only one third public - i wonder how they're going to assess a position to take on behalf of all their members...

They already have.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0211/breaking4.htm

P. Breathnach

pete wrote: »

They already have.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0211/breaking4.htm

That's ICTU, not SIPTU.

LoLth

first off, i dont agree with stikes. never have, never will. I also dont like unions but thats just me.

I DO think that everyone has to take a hit in some form nad bear the burden, me included. its necessary.

I dont think it should be limited to public sector only but since this is the first of a series of measures lets see how it goes.

I DO think that the way this levy is being implemented is badly thought out and looks like it was thought up by someone with very little idea of how the pension system works and absolutely no idea of how it is unfair to lower an already low wage while leaving a relatively high wage almost untouched. I can see why unions would have a hard time with this. this wasnt a compromised last minute fix cobbled together in talks, this was Cowen "doign things my way" after the talks broke down.

I would also imagine that if anyone had any idea what further measures are planned by the government (other than bailouts), then any cost cutting would be easier to swallow but as it stands we have no idea if further public sector cuts / pension levy hikes etc are planned or if high earning private sector employees (like those receiving bonuses of over half a million!) will be aske dot take a hit they will actually notice and help reduce the burden on the lower paid private and public sector workers.

I said it before: take a basic cost of survival of 17k pa. (just an arbitrary figure).

25k less levy of 6.5% - 17k leaves very little above the threshold for surviving.
200k less 9% levy - 17k leaves a much higher amount of disposable income to enjoy luxuries etc.

no matter what your stance is on whether the public sector should receive pay cuts, there is no way anyone can say that the way this is being applied is fair or equitable. It wouldnt be fair in the private sector (and yes, i know several friends who have experienced this type of pay cut - flat 10%, though the salesmen and agents lose only 10% of basic while office workers lose 10% of everything and management etc lost 10% of paychecks ranging to almost half a million) and it isnt fair in the public sector.

Industrial action - I dont support it as a weapon but I can certainly understand where they are coming from.

pete

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's ICTU, not SIPTU.

uh, what?

P. Breathnach

pete wrote: »

uh, what?

Look at post #195.

thomasj

worth a read

I am writing to express my outrage at the “Pensions Levy” this Government proposes to impose on civil and public servants.
I would like to point out the following information:

- The 2nd Benchmarking Report in 2008 resulted in 300,000 public servants and 100,000 retired public servants receiving a pay award of 0%.
This report stated “A discount of up to 12.5% was applied because of pension entitlement”.

- Because this was not highlighted by the Trade Union movement at the time, the way was left open for the savage attack on our take-home pay which is now being proposed by the Government.

- The failure by Trade Union leaders to state at every opportunity that public servants pay 6.5% of their salary for pension in addition to the 12.5% above, created the impression in the public mind that Public Servants did not pay anything for their pension.


- Benchmarking has been shamefully described as the “ATM for Public Servants”. The first Benchmarking Report in 2002 was welcomed by IBEC who said at the time “Benchmarking has brought reality into Public Service pay and has stopped leapfrogging and relativities”.

- This same Benchmarking process replaced our traditional pay review mechanism.

- The “Rolls Royce” Public Service pensions referred to by Turlough O’ Sullivan is as follows
Public Service retiree on pension of €500 per week after 40 year’s service does not get the State Pension of €230 per week. Thus the real additional benefit of the “Rolls Royce”, after working for 40 years, is €270 per week, NOT €500.
Out of this, the pensioner pays VHI, including the levy of €128, and the new 1% income levy (equivalent to €400 per annum).




- The separation of the link between Public Service pay and pensions, evident again in this proposed levy, must be stopped.

- We as public servants are prepared to take some of the pain of this recession, on an equitable basis, even though we did not receive the gain of the private sector during the Celtic Tiger- large bonuses, company cars, expenses.

- Many public servants are on temporary contracts. This is not secure employment.


- It is offensive to Public Servants that the private sector is referred to as “the real economy” by Turlough O’Sullivan. The public sector economy is very real to people who are in hospital, children in schools and people who are rescued by firefighters.

- Unlike a possible pay cut, the proposed pension levy will not be reversed when the economy picks up.

from CPSU

Darragh29

I can tell you all one thing, I was in town today on a bit of business and you could sense the mood of people around the place. People are starting to seriously run out of patience with how things are now unfolding in this country. Useless c*nts who have failed to do their jobs, being given handshakes of hundreds of thousands of Euro and no sooner does that emerge, but we hear that 128 special needs teaching posts will be lost. Every street corner I passed by today, you could hear people talking about the economy and the disgrace that the country is at the moment...

pete

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Look at post #195.

quite.

Are you aware that SIPTU are an ICTU affilliated union? Or that several SIPTU members sit on ICTUs executive council? Or that there's a direct quote from Jack O'Connor outlining the SIPTU position in the article?

Siptu president Jack O’Connor said that neither employers, the construction industry federation in the private sector, nor the Government, were honouring the existing national agreements. He said that inevitably this would result in sustained campaigns of industrial action “if they can not be persuaded otherwise”.

Kimbot

Darragh29 wrote: »

I can tell you all one thing, I was in town today on a bit of business and you could sense the mood of people around the place. People are starting to seriously run out of patience with how things are now unfolding in this country. Useless c*nts who have failed to do their jobs, being given handshakes of hundreds of thousands of Euro and no sooner does that emerge, but we hear that 128 special needs teaching posts will be lost. Every street corner I passed by today, you could hear people talking about the economy and the disgrace that the country is at the moment...

It is a disgrace.

Special needs kids are going to be affected. Tomorrow it could be your kids because people won't get into teaching if the pay is crap due to the pension levy. The innocent and most vunerable in society are now set to lose out over the coming months in order to keep those that shafted the country accustomed to their lifestyle!

We all hear stories of people on the dole while working cash in hand, this should be targetted and as civilians its up to US to report them and ensure they are stopped.

We need to cut costs, one way of doing so would be to send prisoners out in chain gangs (They done wrong now they should do the right thing) to fix up the worst areas of society and the roads, freeing up services and money to be used elsewhere.

Immigration is costing us a fortune, even tho Poland is currently thriving why are so many polish people still entering our country? I think its because when they go to Social Welfare they don't have to prove they have a child back home to be able to get the single parents etc.
Not only that Immigration costs the state Millions a year and alot of these people are not allowed work. We should either get them working and contributing to society or they have to leave as we cannot sustain it anymore.

Stupid development plans need to be scrapped right now until things pick up again, its costing a fortune that is needed right now to help our country out.

US as the taxpayers and voters should really find a way to get the government out of power and put people in there that will help us out of this mess, even if they are only there for the short term. The gov have failed on every election promise they made yet we are gullable in listening to them and lay the blame where they want us to lay the blame!!!

P. Breathnach

pete wrote: »

Are you aware that SIPTU are an ICTU affilliated union? Or that several SIPTU members sit on ICTUs executive council? Or that there's a direct quote from Jack O'Connor outlining the SIPTU position in the article?

So what? Lplated drew attention to a particular challenge SIPTU faces in balancing the interests of different groups of members.

The direct quote from Jack O'Connor reveals no more than that he is adept at avoiding pitfalls.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

...Every street corner I passed by today, you could hear people talking about the economy and the disgrace that the country is at the moment...

They'll be talking about the football tomorrow (and possibly the disgrace that the country is at the moment).

Darragh29

LoLth wrote: »

first off, i dont agree with stikes. never have, never will. I also dont like unions but thats just me.

I don't disagree with you on the strikes point, but when you see the country that you live in surrendering up 1,500 jobs a DAY, and no sign of a plan to first of all immediately stop job losses and then resolve to get the people who have been made unemployed within the last year, back to work, when you see people whose incompetence has literally been the ruination of the Irish economy, getting paid hundreds of thousands of Euro as a handshake, and the nurse down in A & E in Tallaght or the fireman/paramedic who is cutting someone out of a car crash tonight in Dublin, getting hit for 10%, you have to question what in all seriousness is actually going on with the way the country is being run.

I'm not usually for striking but the issues on this occasion are that serious that I'll be joining in any march or protest that comes about over this. It's nothing less than an absolute f*cking disgrace the way this government are trying to climb up the arses of hard working people while continuing to literally p*ss hard earned tax payers money all over the place.

We could start with Seanie Fitzpatrick, that loan he gave himself should be called in immediately. No more "sure whenever ya have it on ye Seanie", the loan should be called in immediately and if he can't pay, then a committal order should be sought to have him f*cked into Mountjoy.

Government jet, get rid of it.

ALL government departments that can do business electronically with the public should be doing so, no more 20 people sitting around in offices scratching their arses doing the job of 2 people. Automate their job function and bring the civil service into the 21st Century.

BroomBurner

Darragh29 wrote: »

I don't disagree with you on the strikes point, but when you see the country that you live in surrendering up 1,500 jobs a DAY, and no sign of a plan to first of all immediately stop job losses and then resolve to get the people who have been made unemployed within the last year, back to work, when you see people whose incompetence has literally been the ruination of the Irish economy, getting paid hundreds of thousands of Euro as a handshake, and the nurse down in A & E in Tallaght or the fireman/paramedic who is cutting someone out of a car crash tonight in Dublin, getting hit for 10%, you have to question what in all seriousness is actually going on with the way the country is being run.

I'm not usually for striking but the issues on this occasion are that serious that I'll be joining in any march or protest that comes about over this. It's nothing less than an absolute f*cking disgrace the way this government are trying to climb up the arses of hard working people while continuing to literally p*ss hard earned tax payers money all over the place.

We could start with Seanie Fitzpatrick, that loan he gave himself should be called in immediately. No more "sure whenever ya have it on ye Seanie", the loan should be called in immediately and if he can't pay, then a committal order should be sought to have him f*cked into Mountjoy.

Government jet, get rid of it.

ALL government departments that can do business electronically with the public should be doing so, no more 20 people sitting around in offices scratching their arses doing the job of 2 people. Automate their job function and bring the civil service into the 21st Century.

Yeah, I agree with you with pretty much everything there. I don't want to go on strike, I don't want all this aggro. However, when you see how unfair the system is, it's hard not to get angry over it.

Cutting costs by stopping the stopping the HPV vaccine, removing special needs teachers/assistants, targetting low paid workers (levy), not accounting for the tax difference with regards the pension levy, the list goes on.

All the while, not cutting costs by:

• not taking a paycut (only 12 TD's "donated" 10%)
• three government jets
• driver and new cars (Cowen isn't using his cause of the message it might give out, but the 09 car is still powered up and in the garage)
• Too many Junior ministers
• RTE staff not taking a cut, merely "donating" 10% also, and not all of themn either
• Allowing the banks to continue doing whatever they want and cow-towing to their demands
• Unreceipted expenses
• The mess that is the HSE continuing uncontrollably
• Ensuring those living in Ireland pay tax in Ireland, e.g. successful artists (I will be boycotting anything U2 related (not difficult) until they start paying their taxes properly)

I could go on, but there's no point really

Hillel

BroomBurner wrote: »

Yeah, I agree with you with pretty much everything there. I don't want to go on strike, I don't want all this aggro. However, when you see how unfair the system is, it's hard not to get angry over it.

Cutting costs by stopping the stopping the HPV vaccine, removing special needs teachers/assistants, targetting low paid workers (levy), not accounting for the tax difference with regards the pension levy, the list goes on.

All the while, not cutting costs by:

• not taking a paycut (only 12 TD's "donated" 10%)
• three government jets
• driver and new cars (Cowen isn't using his cause of the message it might give out, but the 09 car is still powered up and in the garage)
• Too many Junior ministers
• RTE staff not taking a cut, merely "donating" 10% also, and not all of themn either
• Allowing the banks to continue doing whatever they want and cow-towing to their demands
• Unreceipted expenses
• The mess that is the HSE continuing uncontrollably
• Ensuring those living in Ireland pay tax in Ireland, e.g. successful artists (I will be boycotting anything U2 related (not difficult) until they start paying their taxes properly)

I could go on, but there's no point really

There is every point, its important to keep a focus on politicians who, in a democracy, are elected to serve the people. They certainly are leading by example, unfortunately its an example I would prefer not to see. I, for one, will be letting my local representatives know exactly what I think. I will continue to put pressure on politicians, at all levels, through all possible means until there is clear evidence of changes at government level.

BroomBurner

Hillel wrote: »

There is every point, its important to keep a focus on politicians who, in a democracy, are elected to serve the people. They certainly are leading by example, unfortunately its an example I would prefer not to see. I, for one, will be letting my local representatives know exactly what I think. I will continue to put pressure on politicians, at all levels, through all possible means until there is clear evidence of changes at government level.

Well, my Valentines weekend will be spent getting my emails out to my local TDs, especially my Green party TDs, seeing as I voted for them. The level of disappointment is unreal.

Btw, any PS workers on here that are feeling an air of tension in your workplace?? It is palpable where I am Everyone is on edge and, personally, I'm worried about whether I'll still have a job in the forseeable future.

pete

from the PSEU today:

The ICTU Executive Council* decided on six things this morning;

(a) They adopted a text in the form of a “platform” of 10 points to cover both the Private Sector and the Public Service - it includes the Levy.

(b) The text is to finalised - hopefully this p.m. - and published as an ad. in the papers - hopefully by Friday.

(c) There is a recognition of the desirability of getting talks going again - if there can be a real chance of success.

(d) They also decided that, if talks cannot be resumed, then the ICTU has no choice but to engage in action on the issue.

(e)As a first step, it was agreed to organise a demonstration in support of the “platform” on Saturday, 21 February. This would be in Dublin – other centres as well, if possible.

* yes, including SIPTU :rolleyes:

Darragh29

BroomBurner wrote: »

Well, my Valentines weekend will be spent getting my emails out to my local TDs, especially my Green party TDs, seeing as I voted for them. The level of disappointment is unreal.

Btw, any PS workers on here that are feeling an air of tension in your workplace?? It is palpable where I am Everyone is on edge and, personally, I'm worried about whether I'll still have a job in the forseeable future.

I was in the CRO (Companies Registration Office), today and the staff were murmering behind the service counter of not passing pickets and not coming into work. Two other staff were having a deep discussion regarding the public sector levy and how unfair it was and how they are paying for the mistakes of the banks. I could actually feel tension walking through town today, I know some would say that this is alarmist but I felt at atmosphere today in town that I never felt in my 30 years of being in Ireland, like a layer of fear simmering around the streets. Even more noticible was the lack of any customers in the CRO and if you looked at the shelves behind the counter for firms of solicitors (the CRO staff leave paperwork for new start-ups on these shelves for solicitors firms to pick up), they were almost completely empty, as no companies are being set up.

I just passed by my local pub to see if they are showing the match tonight and it's ceased trading today and all locked up and in darkness...

I'm all for progress and shouldering the wheel, but where there is no progress and only b*ll**** and taking the p*ss out of the taxpayer, well then I'm all for protest and a downing of tools and general strikes and whatever comes with it...