[UPC] Cap and Fair Usage Policy

dub45

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Yes, but comreg aren't doing anything and UPC dont even see it as false advertising.

I thought there was an asterix, its hidden in the small print anyway.

And a customer of any reputable company should be able to know exactly what they are paying for without having to trawl through documents.

And even if they find it in the small print it clearly conflicts with other totally unqualified statments in very clear print on the website - so how is even the most dilgent person supposed to know exactly which part to believe?

Fibre Power Broadband 20Mb
Fibre Power Broadband 20Mb

Downloading local maps, videos or photos? Then 20Mb is for you and with unlimited usage don’t be afraid to download again and again

My emphasis.

And I would suggest it is deliberately misleading advertising rather than false advertising. With the sort of unqualified language a potential customer is being encouraged to download as much as they want. And if the customer believes it they potentially end up with a hefty bill. Pure and simple they are being lied to.

Terms and conditions are not meant to be used to directly contradict product information that is given elsewhere by a company.

Apart from that total lack of action by the various authorities who should be looking at this type of ongoing deception it is very strange that none of the so called consumer type journalists have picked up on it.

Kjell

Just a small update. I have not gotten anywhere with UPC. ComReg and the NCA also have not ultimately been very helpful.

At first Advertising Standards rejected my complaint but I responded to their rejection and now they have decided to take the matter further. They have arranged a meeting with UPC to talk about their use of the term "unlimited" in their advertising.

johndoe99

po0k wrote: »

Could be your neighbours.
Change your wireless WPA2 key and SSID name.
Change the key regularly.
Apply MAC filters.

If you want to go a step further and have a router that supports this:
Setup a RADIUS service.
Create 2 separate SSIDs, 1 WPA2 for non 802.1x devices (WPA2 DS, Wii, PSP), 1 non-SSID-broadcasting 802.1x authing against the RADIUS server for your modern devices (smartphones, laptops).

On the devices, log unknown MACs that connect. Perhaps blackholing/mangle proxying/selective packet logging them to record email addresses of unauthorized clients accessing your network. Or flip the images on every site they visit.
Lots of scope to be pro-active, as you are ultimately responsible for the security of your network.

don't have wireless, i'm connected by there standard modem.

Nollog

enigma wrote:

Anyway, just curious is it really legal for them to do anything to my account if I go over this? They give me no tools to monitor how much I download or upload, there's no way I can monitor this myself without installing something on every piece of hardware or setting it up so that everything must go through another pc etc...just sounds like a breach of the consumer charter to take action against a customer in such a way

It's legal.
Hopefully that will change, one of the political parties said they don't want no "unlimited" word use. I know they're politicians, so likely nothing will come of it, but there is HOPE.

conor.hogan.2

Well yes, it is deliberately vague and misleading.

Their logic is "we dont stop you downloading more or using more over the fair usage policy, you are free to do that but you will get charged for it".

Thats terrible logic, and very hard to find on the site.

Kjell

The legality of things is somewhat complicated. Just because something is written in a contract does not make it legal, if the contract is in contravention to the law. A lot of people don't seem to understand this (including ComReg and UPC customer service). Putting aside this issue for a moment UPC is breaching its own contract by not notifying me (and some of you) about billing changes. I read the contract the other day and it says right in there that if your billing increases by more than 15% they must notify you. They probably said that they notified me (and you) but they really cannot produce any proof. All I heard was "usually if a person does not receive our letter it comes back to us and I don't remember seeing any letters to you come back." Pretty solid right? Another UPC person told me that they should have sent me a text (this is what it says explicitly in the contract) but I never received this either and I doubt, if you took them to court, that they have any proof at all that they actually sent a text.

dub45

Kjell wrote: »

The legality of things is somewhat complicated. Just because something is written in a contract does not make it legal, if the contract is in contravention to the law. A lot of people don't seem to understand this (including ComReg and UPC customer service).

Indeed I was going to ask Nollog on what basis he was pronouncing that "It's legal". Anything can be put into Terms and Conditions but that does not make it "legal".

However it is only be testing it in a court of law that the legality can be established. Companies know that consumers do not have the money to do this so basically behave as they wish. Consumers need more protection in this respect from the authorities. For example UPC's Terms and Conditions in many places read like a list of instructions to subjects rather than a business contract between supplier and customer. There are terms within UPC's T&C's which should be "legal" because they are based on EU regulations and these are the clauses at 16 and 17 which UPC blatantly broke
in respect of their last price increase.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/si/0308.html

Subsequently they supposedly made an arrangement with Comreg in respect of "proactive" measures etc etc. But I do not believe there is any basis for such an accomodation. In UPC's eyes (and other companies too) Terms and Conditions apply only to customers and the customer as mentioned above has little protection.

We are now in the fourth month of price increases that were not implemented properly and as I have pointed out before if UPC only get one euro per month per customer from these increases - so far, four months on they have now got over €3m from price increases that were not implemented in accordance with their own Terms and Conditions and EU regulations and Comreg requirements.

Kjell wrote: »

Putting aside this issue for a moment UPC is breaching its own contract by not notifying me (and some of you) about billing changes. I read the contract the other day and it says right in there that if your billing increases by more than 15% they must notify you. They probably said that they notified me (and you) but they really cannot produce any proof. All I heard was "usually if a person does not receive our letter it comes back to us and I don't remember seeing any letters to you come back."

I am sure like many on here I have read some rubbish reported here from UPC csrs but this one really takes this biscuit:eek: This person sitting (presumably all day) in front a computer screen God knows where is claiming to be regularly down in some mysterious returns room examining "returned" mail!!!!!!

It is regularly reported on here that UPC csrs claim that letters have gone out to customers which obviously haven't. There have even been reports of CSRS claiming that An Post have confirmed delivery of ordinary non registered letters.

Kjell wrote: »

Pretty solid right? Another UPC person told me that they should have sent me a text (this is what it says explicitly in the contract) but I never received this either and I doubt, if you took them to court, that they have any proof at all that they actually sent a text.

There is no provision in the contract for texting people. They did not inform people as they should have in respect of the price increases- this was even recognised by Comreg. (http://www.comreg.ie/publications/comreg_notifies_upc_of_a_finding_of_non-compliance_with_respect_to_notification_of_proposed_changes_to_contract_terms_and_conditions.583.103800.p.html)

And it is clear from so many posts on here that they have no problem at all in claiming that letters went out to people which were never posted.


Did you ask Comreg why they do not tackle UPC over their non complaince with Comreg's policy on unlimited products?

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

Kjell

Interesting stuff Dub45. It seems ComReg and the other regulators in Ireland are really weak in their dealings with companies. ComReg does not really do investigations, only "mediation" between you and the company. ASAI was also very weak, at first telling me that it was not a violation of advertising standards because UPC informed them that it doesn't effect 99% of their users! I wrote back saying 1) how can they trust this data, and 2) this had nothing to do with whether or not UPC has misleading advertising (a more relevant test would be whether most UPC customers believe their service is "unlimited" and whether this influenced their behaviour as consumers). As I wrote above they now say they have scheduled a meeting with UPC on this issue.

Are you a lawyer? You seem like one. I'm not a qualified lawyer but I'm completing a PhD in law right now. UPC really counts on people not challenging them in court because most people are too passive or intimidated by the legal system. I am neither of these things but I am too busy. Wish that UPC would just deal with people in a decent way. They are in desperate need of competition.

hightower1

Not saying that I agree with this use of the term "unlimited" but does anyone here actually have any intention of attempting legal action against UPC???

If so you do realize that your not fighting upc on the use of the term "unlimited" but every single isp in ireland that uses it.... every telephone provider that uses it on their call plans.... every establishment in Ireland that uses the term "unlimited" with subject to fair usage eg Subway????

So in reality your looking to not change a companies use of the term but your looking to change Irish advertising law for all businesses.
Good luck with it, honestly. I just dont think its a case that would even be entertained in an Irish court.

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

Not saying that I agree with this use of the term "unlimited" but does anyone here actually have any intention of attempting legal action against UPC???

So why do you consistently defend UPC's use of the term?

hightower1 wrote: »

If so you do realize that your not fighting upc on the use of the term "unlimited" but every single isp in ireland that uses it.... every telephone provider that uses it on their call plans.... every establishment in Ireland that uses the term "unlimited" with subject to fair usage eg Subway????

So in reality your looking to not change a companies use of the term but your looking to change Irish advertising law for all businesses.
Good luck with it, honestly. I just dont think its a case that would even be entertained in an Irish court.

On what basis do you not think it would be entertained in a court?

And it seems strange that any customer or consumer should not be demanding basic honesty in advertising and publicity rather than being cynical when other people highlight this rampant dishonesty

The question is why UPC and others deliberately deceive potential and existing customers? It is appalling that that appropriate authorities do not take action on the customers behalf that's what we should be decrying.

Nollog

hightower1 wrote: »

If so you do realize that your not fighting upc on the use of the term "unlimited" but every single isp in ireland that uses it.... every telephone provider that uses it on their call plans.... every establishment in Ireland that uses the term "unlimited" with subject to fair usage eg Subway????

The difference to me is that the likes of e-mobile, meteor etc. clearly state "fair usage applies", whereas UPC hide it behind pages of bullpoopie.

hmmm

dub45 wrote: »

The question is why UPC and others deliberately deceive potential and existing customers? It is appalling that that appropriate authorities do not take action on the customers behalf that's what we should be decrying.

The problem here is not UPC. UPC have to describe their products as "unlimited" in order to compete with the other "unlimited" vendors.

The problem here is the useless waste of space that is the so called regulator that allows this anti-consumer activity to continue.

hightower1

/\/ollog wrote: »

The difference to me is that the likes of e-mobile, meteor etc. clearly state "fair usage applies", whereas UPC hide it behind pages of bullpoopie.

I have never seen any company using the unlimited term state up front that a fair usage policy applied? Can you show examples , god knows I could be wrong but I cant ever recall a case.

I checked out meteors "free texts for life" line before and while it never effected me it is buried in their contracts that there is again a FUP but its not "up front" as we would normally imagine.

jaxdasher

Hi
i read this earlier today on the UPC site about download limits.

"120GB for Fibre Power Broadband 8Mb, 10Mb and 15Mb users,"

can any 1 vouch that this is true? Im on 8mb atm planning to upgrade.

hightower1

dub45 wrote: »

On what basis do you not think it would be entertained in a court?

I guess that it would see a bit unlikely that a private citizen could successfully take a case against and win a court case against such a wide spread marketing practice.

dub45 wrote: »

And it seems strange that any customer or consumer should not be demanding basic honesty in advertising and publicity rather than being cynical when other people highlight this rampant dishonesty

I guess personally it just doesnt bother me that much tbh, I am some what informed when entering into contracts and was always told to read anything I sign by my elders as a teen so I grew up with that ethos so marketing spin never really effected me in terms of trying to not have me as informed as possible.

dub45 wrote: »

The question is why UPC and others deliberately deceive potential and existing customers? It is appalling that that appropriate authorities do not take action on the customers behalf that's what we should be decrying.

Well I agree, as I said I dont like any marketing blurb including "unlimited" and yeah regulators SHOULD be taking more action across the entire sales sector.

dub45

hmmm wrote: »

The problem here is not UPC. UPC have to describe their products as "unlimited" in order to compete with the other "unlimited" vendors.

The problem here is the useless waste of space that is the so called regulator that allows this anti-consumer activity to continue.

This is nonsense as an argument. A big multinational is forced into lying because of the behaviour of its competitors?

So they would all be honest except for each other?

As I have posted elsewhere If UPC wanted to they could easily use their marketing to show up the so called unlimited products of the other isps.

In any event there is nobody "forcing" UPC to make deceiving statements like this:

With unlimited usage don’t be afraid to download again and again

That is inviting people to end up on their so called punishment product.

UTV, Digiweb and Smart dont seem to have any problems listing the allowances for their customers why should anyone else?

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

I guess that it would see a bit unlikely that a private citizen could successfully take a case against and win a court case against such a wide spread marketing practice.



I guess personally it just doesnt bother me that much tbh, I am some what informed when entering into contracts and was always told to read anything I sign by my elders as a teen so I grew up with that ethos so marketing spin never really effected me in terms of trying to not have me as informed as possible.



Well I agree, as I said I dont like any marketing blurb including "unlimited" and yeah regulators SHOULD be taking more action across the entire sales sector.

In most cases now though people don't actually sign anything. And in the case of UPC for example it is quite difficult to know where Terms and Conditions begin and end. They have their terms and conditions, an acceptable user policy and a product tab which is deliberately virtually unreadable and which they claim is part of the Terms and Conditons. I would consider it highly inappropriate to have marketing information in what purports to be Terms and Conditions but that is what is in that Conditions tab.

Even with all those Terms and Conditions they don't conform to Comreg's requirement to have a detailed proper procedure in relation the so called unlimited product nor they do tell people that they are liable to pay a fee of 11 euros if they miss out on a direct debit.

So no matter how valiant a person is in trying to inform themselves of Terms and Conditons it can be made extremely difficult by a determined isp like UPC.
And in any event UPC dont comply with their own Terms and Conditions anyway!

Kjell

dub45 wrote: »

This is nonsense as an argument. A big multinational is forced into lying because of the behaviour of its competitors?

So they would all be honest except for each other?

As I have posted elsewhere If UPC wanted to they could easily use their marketing to show up the so called unlimited products of the other isps.

In any event there is nobody "forcing" UPC to make deceiving statements like this:



That is inviting people to end up on their so called punishment product.

UTV, Digiweb and Smart dont seem to have any problems listing the allowances for their customers why should anyone else?

I agree with what you are saying. The main problem is that UPC is deliberately deceptive. I looked again at their website and, on the main broadband package page, they do list limits for their lower end packages but then for the higher end ones they just say "unlimited." There is not even an asterix saying "subject to our fair use policy." Moreover, when I originally contacted UPC about broadband packages I asked them directly if it was in fact unlimited and they told me yes there is no limit, without mentioning the fair usage policy. Even now they seem reluctant to admit to me that there is a limit, even while they charge me for exceeding the limit. They also provide no means for customers to ensure their compliance (unlike their competitors), while they financially benefit from the non-compliance of their customers. This is what makes their behaviour especially egregious.

I agree that the regulator is very weak and passive but I do not agree with what Hightower is saying that it could not be challenged in court. I also don't agree that just because some other companies do it that it's ok or that it's in compliance with Irish law. Incidentally this issue has also arisen in the UK with phone campanies.

Kjell

And beyond these facts, as Dub45 pointed out, they are not even in compliance with their own policies vis a vis things like notifying their customers. This is probably what annoys me the most. I have been paying 80 euros per month for the last several months without even being informed by them that they had "upgraded" me. This means I have paid them 200 euros in excess of what I thought I had agreed to. As a student this has very serious consequences for me. I would also be annoyed on finding out back in october that "unlimited" does not mean "unlimited" but at least I would have had a chance to avoid future punitive charges.

If any of you are UPC customers I would urge you not to pay by direct debit. To change your payment information call them on Free Phone 1908. They levy a surcharge of e2.99 per month for non-direct debit but it is worth it. As the numerous stories in this thread, and elsewhere, attest by allowing them access to your bank account you are giving them a blank cheque to levy whatever charges they want against you, without notifying you. Of course all of this is up to you but I have learned my lesson.

dub45

Kjell wrote: »

And beyond these facts, as Dub45 pointed out, they are not even in compliance with their own policies vis a vis things like notifying their customers. This is probably what annoys me the most. I have been paying 80 euros per month for the last several months without even being informed by them that they had "upgraded" me. This means I have paid them 200 euros in excess of what I thought I had agreed to. As a student this has very serious consequences for me. I would also be annoyed on finding out back in october that "unlimited" does not mean "unlimited" but at least I would have had a chance to avoid future punitive charges.

If any of you are UPC customers I would urge you not to pay by direct debit. To change your payment information call them on Free Phone 1908. They levy a surcharge of e2.99 per month for non-direct debit but it is worth it. As the numerous stories in this thread, and elsewhere, attest by allowing them access to your bank account you are giving them a blank cheque to levy whatever charges they want against you, without notifying you. Of course all of this is up to you but I have learned my lesson.

Unfortunately signing up for the dd system does leave you open to a company accessing your account if they wish. However they have no entitlement to do so and under the rules of the direct debit scheme any company who wishes to debit your account is required to give you 14 days notice of any such charges. Neither UPC nor any other company are entitled to access your account willy nilly!

Unfortunately the dd scheme is very lax around such breeches and once again companies have nothing to fear no matter what they do in this respect.

However if you feel your account has been debited wrongly you should contact your bank straight away. (As I am forever pointing out bank staff's knowledge of the dd system is in general lamentable)

http://www.ipso.ie/section/section/YourRightsasaPayer

vibe666

jaxdasher wrote: »

Hi
i read this earlier today on the UPC site about download limits.

"120GB for Fibre Power Broadband 8Mb, 10Mb and 15Mb users,"

can any 1 vouch that this is true? Im on 8mb atm planning to upgrade.

yes it is.

they count both downloads+uploads (some isp's only count downloads) and anything you do online is going to count towards the limit.

the 'unlimited' 20, 25 & 30mbps packages have a 250gb limit and the 100mbps limit is 500gb.

Kjell

dub45 wrote: »

Unfortunately signing up for the dd system does leave you open to a company accessing your account if they wish. However they have no entitlement to do so and under the rules of the direct debit scheme any company who wishes to debit your account is required to give you 14 days notice of any such charges. Neither UPC nor any other company are entitled to access your account willy nilly!

Unfortunately the dd scheme is very lax around such breeches and once again companies have nothing to fear no matter what they do in this respect.

However if you feel your account has been debited wrongly you should contact your bank straight away. (As I am forever pointing out bank staff's knowledge of the dd system is in general lamentable)

http://www.ipso.ie/section/section/YourRightsasaPayer

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately for me personally I believe it is too late (because of the lack of notification of the change in my billing from UPC). At any rate I know I will not use direct debit with them in the future and I'll be reluctant to use it with other companies as well.

dub45

Kjell wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately for me personally I believe it is too late (because of the lack of notification of the change in my billing from UPC). At any rate I know I will not use direct debit with them in the future and I'll be reluctant to use it with other companies as well.

It is never too late get on to IPSO and complain. Ask to speak to the direct debit scheme manager. It is only by complaining that these things will be brought to the attention of those who should be looking after them and remember your bank account is your property and should not be accessed willy nilly.

You are entitled to request a refund of any variable direct debit which exceeded the amount which you could reasonably have expected, subject to you so requesting your bank within a period of 8 weeks from the date of debiting such direct debit to your account; your bank is entitled to ask you to provide factual elements relating to your request for a refund

crazygeryy

just got a letter the other day as well. :mad:
ive installed net meter and i couldnt recommend it more.as loads of people have said though, upc should provide that service and this unlimited bs is false advertising.if they just came straight out and said ie 20mb line = 250gb limit and have a usage calculator on their website i think a lot of people would accept it.
i know i would.250gb is enough in fairness.
i just did the dog on it last month 383gb :rolleyes:

Nollog

UPC are hardcore limiting my connection.
Can't get more than 200kB/s total now.
Makes me want to poop on their office entrance in protest.

Lexii

Hi guys, I'm relocating from England to Doughiska, Galway. I was looking at UPC for my BB, Tv & phone but the sneaky cap listed in the T&Cs is concerning. How easy is it to go over this limit?

Myself & partner pretty much work & live on your computers. Both of us are regular gamers too & with relocating I really won't have spare money sitting there waiting for UPC to put their hand out for going over the so called 'unlimited' package.

Nody

Lexii wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm relocating from England to Doughiska, Galway. I was looking at UPC for my BB, Tv & phone but the sneaky cap listed in the T&Cs is concerning. How easy is it to go over this limit?

Myself & partner pretty much work & live on your computers. Both of us are regular gamers too & with relocating I really won't have spare money sitting there waiting for UPC to put their hand out for going over the so called 'unlimited' package.

Depends is the only answer; regular gamers - no issue (games use limited broadband and even a few games a month from Steam is not going to be an issue). Working with computers - in general no issue unless you do daily transfers of huge files.

Now if you want to download and seed daily ISOs of Red Hat , watch 1080p youtube videos and streaming TV; yea, you might need to be concerned. Easiest option is to look at installing software either on the PCs or the router to monitor your up/download amounts.

Leeg17

Nody wrote: »

Depends is the only answer; regular gamers - no issue (games use limited broadband and even a few games a month from Steam is not going to be an issue). Working with computers - in general no issue unless you do daily transfers of huge files.

Now if you want to download and seed daily ISOs of Red Hat , watch 1080p youtube videos and streaming TV; yea, you might need to be concerned. Easiest option is to look at installing software either on the PCs or the router to monitor your up/download amounts.

Nody, I'll be getting UPC 20mb installed on Thursday. Having been on .5mb 3 mobile broadband for the past year I'll be making the most of the speeds . Could you please recommend a usage monitor, because from what I hear UPC provide no way of monitoring it.

Nody

Leeg17 wrote: »

Nody, I'll be getting UPC 20mb installed on Thursday. Having been on .5mb 3 mobile broadband for the past year I'll be making the most of the speeds . Could you please recommend a usage monitor, because from what I hear UPC provide no way of monitoring it.

You're right on UPC and I'd love to but I haven't run any software on my PC doing it for ages

Google brings up several programs including freewares so perhaps trying a few of those at first and compare them vs. what ever software you use to download (i.e. utorrent has a total upload/download amount you can compare to what they say etc. and your program should be higher due to overheads etc.).

ria.rayner

What is it with you people???
UPC have massive download limits.
For normal famiily use (which does include downloading) you wouldnt get anywhere near the usage limits.
and if you are one of these people who has nothing bettr to do with your lives than download a load of ****e other people put online then you should be paying through the nose for it!
UPC have 100mb bb which has AUP of 500mb as per the website. i couldnt download that much unless i had a rake of pcs and an endless supply of redbull!
ARRGGHH! Makes me so mad :mad::mad::mad: