[UPC] Cap and Fair Usage Policy

Virgin Media: Jason

Hi Everybody.

Just jumping in here to give our position and hopefully clear this up for everyone.

UPC offer unlimited usage on 15Mb and 30Mb services – however each product is subject to the acceptable usage policy (AUP). The AUP exists to ensure that customer behaviour is within acceptable parameters to ensure that all customers sharing infrastructure receive an acceptable level of service – The policy is designed for normal residential use.

The AUP usage policy is available on the website alongside, t&c’s and product information - which may change from time to time as well as products or pricing. Customers are notified at all times when such changes take place.

The AUP policy only comes into effect for customers who are using their service in an unusual fashion and typically this represents a tiny fraction of our customer base.

We do offer a different tier for users who find themselves falling outside the parameter of the AUP guidelines and make multiple attempts to contact any individual when the AUP has been exceeded.


Regards

Jason

dublin-texas wrote: »

I still can’t understand how they still can claim that this is unlimited if the FUP gives both an actual limit and the price for being over the limit.

ronkmonster

UPC: Jason wrote: »

Hi Everybody.

Just jumping in here to give our position and hopefully clear this up for everyone.

UPC offer unlimited usage on 15Mb and 30Mb services – however each product is subject to the acceptable usage policy (AUP). The AUP exists to ensure that customer behaviour is within acceptable parameters to ensure that all customers sharing infrastructure receive an acceptable level of service – The policy is designed for normal residential use.

The AUP usage policy is available on the website alongside, t&c’s and product information - which may change from time to time as well as products or pricing. Customers are notified at all times when such changes take place.

The AUP policy only comes into effect for customers who are using their service in an unusual fashion and typically this represents a tiny fraction of our customer base.

We do offer a different tier for users who find themselves falling outside the parameter of the AUP guidelines and make multiple attempts to contact any individual when the AUP has been exceeded.


Regards

Jason

No one ever contacted me. I only found out because I checked my bill online after the money had been taken

EDIT:
Is there a maximum limit for the Extreme package?

RoyalMarine

UPC: Jason wrote: »

UPC offer unlimited usage on 15Mb and 30Mb services – however each product is subject to the acceptable usage policy (AUP).

im sorry, but its just impossible to read that without getting confused..

unlimited is defined as...

Adjective

unlimited

1. limitless or without bounds; unrestricted

key words there "without bounds"

I understand and agree that a small minority of users download a LOT compared to most, and thats why there is a fair use policy. 100% agree with upc on that one.

but calling it "unlimited" when its clearly NOT unlimited does not make sense.

The AUP exists to ensure that customer behaviour is within acceptable parameters to ensure that all customers sharing infrastructure receive an acceptable level of service – The policy is designed for normal residential use.

Hi Jason,

When will users have the opportunity to monitor the service provided by you?

Having no means to measure the service, with the only indicator of abusing it is when one is informed by a nice letter with warnings of automatic upgrading of service with extra cost or disconnection. It wastes paper, this bandwidth and our time.

Surely you could see how it would benefit you as much as it would help me.

How difficult is it to provide this, this has been a standard service with all mid/broad band providers for some time now.


Regards.

James

vibe666

UPC: Jason wrote: »

UPC offer unlimited usage on 15Mb and 30Mb services – however each product is subject to the acceptable usage policy (AUP). The AUP exists to ensure that customer behaviour is within acceptable parameters to ensure that all customers sharing infrastructure receive an acceptable level of service – The policy is designed for normal residential use.

so the big question is, why is UPC it calling it an unlimited if you put a limit on it?

i have no problem with a cap of 250gb if you actually labelled the product as such. why not just call a spade a spade? your other packages aren't labelled as "unlimited with an AUP of 120gb" are they? there's no difference in the 120gb limit on the 8mbps package and the 250gb limit on the 30gb package. the limit is there and the consequences for going over it are exactly the same so why not just be honest about what they are in the first place?

UPC: Jason wrote: »

The AUP usage policy is available on the website alongside, t&c’s and product information - which may change from time to time as well as products or pricing. Customers are notified at all times when such changes take place.

nicely sidestepped, but the 250gb AUP limit was only added into the online T&C's very very recently (in the last month or so, many people have looked for it before that and failed to find it anywhere in online print) and you have been enforcing the limit since January 2009 (nobody had ever heard of any 250gb limit, or any limit at all for that matter) with no statement of the limit until someone receives a nasty letter from you. this is in direct contravention of comreg's rules on the use of an "unlimited" broadband product. why has it taken you almost 2 years to put that small piece of information in your documentation?

UPC: Jason wrote: »

The AUP policy only comes into effect for customers who are using their service in an unusual fashion and typically this represents a tiny fraction of our customer base.

broadband usage in ireland and the rest of the world has ballooned in the last few years and what was once considered unusual usage is becoming more and more common as online content becomes richer and more widely available. in January 2009 (when the 250gb AUP began) YouTube HD, the RTE player, 4OD and the hundreds of other HD video content providers that are out there now online didn't exist, even the BBC iPlayer was just a beta baby of only a few months. lots of people hadn't heard of torrents or rapidshare or similar services, but as time goes on, more and more people become aware of how much is available online and want to be part of it.

if you're just reading your emails, sending IM's and looking at static web pages then a 512kbps connection is plenty fast enough, but that's not what the net is all about these days, it's a brave new world full of endless online possibilities.

times have indeed changed a great deal and you yourselves are on the verge of releasing a 100mbps broadband product in the next couple of months that is literally 200 times faster than the fastest nationally available home internet access in ireland 10 years ago so you know that internet usage has risen sharply and have responded by continually increasing the speed of your connections. what's it all for if it's not to download more because there's infinitely more out there now to be downloaded?

UPC: Jason wrote: »

We do offer a different tier for users who find themselves falling outside the parameter of the AUP guidelines and make multiple attempts to contact any individual when the AUP has been exceeded.

sorry, but that's something that you really need to look into because there have been many complaints on here (just read the last few pages of this thread to see) of people who have received no notifications at all and only find out after they see their DD has doubled and the money is already gone from their banks. how hard would it be to send an email or leave a voice message informing people of their breach (particularly as they have no other way of finding out their usage from you?).

every other irish broadband (and midband) ISP offers their customers easy access to a bandwidth monitoring tool or web page, so why don't UPC?

you obviously have the capacity to monitor usage or people wouldn't be getting letters for breaching your AUP (or not receiving them in some cases) so why can't you guys do the same?

there are quite regular firmware updates to the modems/routers you provide, so why can't a bandwidth monitor be included there? it would (literally) only be a few lines of code to monitor WAN port activity and very simple to implement. or even an online usage meter ala eircom etc? having worked in IT for close to 15 years (including for an ISP for some of that time) AND being a high bandwidth user, i've made a point of monitoring my usage to keep it within the 250gb limit via a separate router (with 3rd party firmware written by some pimply faced geek in his bedroom) which keeps logs of all my data transfers. I have a detailed 24 hour log showing up/down data at 2 minute intervals, daily usage for the last 30 days, weekly for the last 9 weeks (also broken down daily) and monthly usage going back to January 2009 (when i actually started needing it). all this historical data takes up a grand total of only 30kb of space, so you can see how insignificant it would be to keep logs and give your customers access to them. the firmware is open source, so i'm sure your firmware guys could take a look at it to see how it's done if need be.

don't get me wrong, i'm happy to give credit where it's due and more than happy to openly say that UPC literally have hands down the best home broadband product in the country which i'm very lucky to be able to get, but you are letting yourselves (and your customers) down with just these few little issues that can easily be fixed with a little more attention to detail that have been causing big problems for the people using your services.

Also, whilst we have you here, can I ask you to please not make the same mistakes you made with the EPC2425 when you start rolling out the 100mbps upgrades? at the very lease please please please make sure you keep a "modem only" option in the event that the new router used turns out to be a christmas turkey like the EPC2425 is (do a forum search for EPC2425 and you'll see what I mean).

i know not everyone is going to agree with me (one name springs to mind:rolleyes:) but hopefully enough people here do and will hit the thanks button at the bottom to indicate their support. (not thanks whoring, just trying to make a point).

there's my christmas wish to Santa ClaUPCse.

SexVicar

UPC: Jason wrote: »

Hi Everybody.

*AUP Info*

Jason

While I understand your position, it still doesn't explain the fact that AUP letters are being sent at random, demanding payment. At least UPC should have the common decency to issue a warning or at least investigate the customers data for irregularities such as a DDOS or Virus/Trojan software before asking them to pony up. Its not exactly hard to see a spike in Data usage that looks odd and it would at least be a courtesy to inform a customer to run a virus check, just in case.

AlmightyCushion

RoyalMarineComm wrote: »

im sorry, but its just impossible to read that without getting confused..

unlimited is defined as...

Adjective

unlimited

1. limitless or without bounds; unrestricted

key words there "without bounds"

I understand and agree that a small minority of users download a LOT compared to most, and thats why there is a fair use policy. 100% agree with upc on that one.

but calling it "unlimited" when its clearly NOT unlimited does not make sense.

What he said. I don't mind a connection having limits but at least don't say it's unlimited with a limit and have it as part of the package info so that a customer can see this when signing up. Also, if you are going to enforce said limit you really need to provide us with a way to monitor it.

dub45

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What he said. I don't mind a connection having limits but at least don't say it's unlimited with a limit and have it as part of the package info so that a customer can see this when signing up. Also, if you are going to enforce said limit you really need to provide us with a way to monitor it.

In summary: Why is it so hard to be honest?

An unlimited product is a product without any limit. Basic English.

Any sort of a qualified "unlimited" product is not unlimited and is intended to give a wrong impression (to put it kindly).

A product which purportedly is "unlimited" but has a limit of xxxx is a product that has a cap of xxx plain and simple.

Therefore sell it as such and cut the crap.

There is absolutely no need to be selling so called "unlimited" products as ultimately the seller will end up with customers realising that they have been deceived.

Exactly what a customer is purchasing or paying for should be made very clear at the time of purchase and not when the customer opens a letter several months into a contract.

Addendums to Terms and Conditons should not be used to "hide" essential details of products. All essential details of products should be made clear in the product description and for most people the three most important details of any bb product are the price, speed and download limit. Surely we should not have to be pointing out that honestly is the best policy when selling products or services to customers?

And finally it is long past time that this notion of a "fair" user policy was laid to rest. A contract is supposed to be an agreement between two parties. How can something be described as "fair" when one of the parties is expected to agree to it without knowing what it is? There is nothing at all "Fair" about something that is determined by one of the parties and imposed on the other with possible financial penalties too.

Le King

dub45 wrote: »

In summary: Why is it so hard to be honest?

An unlimited product is a product without any limit. Basic English.

Any sort of a qualified "unlimited" product is not unlimited and is intended to give a wrong impression (to put it kindly).

A product which purportedly is "unlimited" but has a limit of xxxx is a product that has a cap of xxx plain and simple.

Therefore sell it as such and cut the crap.

There is absolutely no need to be selling so called "unlimited" products as ultimately the seller will end up with customers realising that they have been deceived.

Exactly what a customer is purchasing or paying for should be made very clear at the time of purchase and not when the customer opens a letter several months into a contract.

Addendums to Terms and Conditons should not be used to "hide" essential details of products. All essential details of products should be made clear in the product description and for most people the three most important details of any bb product are the price, speed and download limit. Surely we should not have to be pointing out that honestly is the best policy when selling products or services to customers?

And finally it is long past time that this notion of a "fair" user policy was laid to rest. A contract is supposed to be an agreement between two parties. How can something be described as "fair" when one of the parties is expected to agree to it without knowing what it is? There is nothing at all "Fair" about something that is determined by one of the parties and imposed on the other with possible financial penalties too.

De ja vu or did you not post something very similar to this before?

Either way, I agree 100%

Yggr of Asgard

UPC: Jason wrote: »

Hi Everybody......

UPC:Jason, well thanks for quoting me and replying with your marketing lines.

However in my opinion UPC is not offering an unlimited 30Mb services, they are only advertising an unlimited 30Mb services.

Until the beginning of this month there was an AUP which did not specify any limits, however this has now changed and a clear limit of 250 GB including the price for getting over the limit has been defined. And this change by the way has not been communicated to me at least (no letter, no e-mail and no remark on the e-billing).

In my opinion UPC is conducting false advertising, but I’m sure a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland will just end nowhere but never the less I will try.

UPC has a great broadband product (if it works) and I’m very happy and I don’t mind paying for what I consume but any organisation that lies to me and sells me something they do not offer is an organisation that is not my preferred vendor.

UPC is not providing means to monitor the bandwidth and beside the anecdotal of UPC claims of bandwidth usage from users not even having their modem on, there is a real problem not providing this to users because there is no trust towards UPC that their claims are real and open to abuse by UPC. I monitor my bandwidth in several ways and what you claim I have done is nowhere near what I have done.

The argument provided in the letter that for the sake of my neighbours I should stop downloading while at the same time telling me, that if I’m happy to pay more UPC is happy to allow me to download the same volume is just another example how the product is advertised as unlimited but limited in reality. Sure you create a problem, but if you are willing to pay more for a different product than you can continue downloading.

As long as UPC has the monopoly for reliable high speed broadband I will stay with UPC and if I get upgraded to the extreme package, so be it. At least that is unlimited (or is it?).

What you should do is

a.) Advertise your packages a limited to 250 GB
b.) Introduce a package with a higher limit (i.e. make the extreme public)
c.) Introduce a bandwidth monitor tool
d.) Communicate changes to your T&C and AUP pro-actively.

It’s a shame that a leading broadband provider in Europe feels the need to deceive their customers in Ireland.

dub45

Le King wrote: »

De ja vu or did you not post something very similar to this before?

Either way, I agree 100%

Yes many times in fact but Jason doesn't seem to have read any of the previous posts!

ronkmonster

dublin-texas wrote: »

... I will stay with UPC and if I get upgraded to the extreme package, so be it. At least that is unlimited (or is it?).

No one from UPC seems to want to reply to whether it's unlimited in writing.

I'd have no problem continuing to pay if they would confirm it is or what the limit is.

slave1

O Christ, I just can't believe how many times this goes around and around in circles and can't stop myself on this occasion from adding to the madness.:mad:

Unlimited does not equal 250 cap, end of
[Per UPC] 250 cap to ensure all customers get a fair service [end UPC] simple self eliminates the spirit behind the creation an extreme package as this does not address 'overusage'

Just feckin' get out from behind the veil, call a spade a spade, this is 2010, XBox360s, PS3s, Wii's, HD YouTube, online downloads, multiple PC maintenance downloads, P2P etc demands higher limits.
What in God's name is the point of bordering on a 100mg service when you'll soon be in a position to reach your limit in a couple of days.

Rant over

PS UPC great product:) - and I mean that

vibe666

slave1 wrote: »

What in God's name is the point of bordering on a 100mg service when you'll soon be in a position to reach your limit in a couple of days.

try less than 6 hours, assuming you could max out your connection and accounting for an average of 10% overhead and that's without any uploads.

rumour has it tho that the limit will be bumped after the upgrades. i've no evidence tho, its just a rumour for now, but fingers crossed its true.

and yes, UPC are by far the best ISP in ireland and have done more than anyone to improve the broadband situation in this country in the last few years with millions invested in their infrastructure bringing cable broadband to more homes than ever before and that's all great, but you still need to listen to your customers when things are wrong.

EDIT: no sign of "UPC Jason", i think we might have scared him off.

hightower1

slave1 wrote: »

Just feckin' get out from behind the veil, call a spade a spade, this is 2010, XBox360s, PS3s, Wii's, HD YouTube, online downloads, multiple PC maintenance downloads, P2P etc demands higher limits.

Seems like the answer is that as it is the cap is 250 but yet...

UPC: Jason wrote: »

typically this represents a tiny fraction of our customer base.

So from a business standpoint why increase the cap if only a tiny amount of your base breaches it in the first place? It simply wouldnt make sense.
From the horses mouth there - using over 250gb a month puts you squarely in the minority.

(Note:I speak in regards to their current products not anything that may be coming)

bk109

Great,thanks to my housemates' usage the house account has been bumped to the Extreme package...So I'm wondering if its a permanent switch or just as long as the usage stays above 250gigs?

vibe666

bk109 wrote: »

Great,thanks to my housemates' usage the house account has been bumped to the Extreme package...So I'm wondering if its a permanent switch or just as long as the usage stays above 250gigs?

from what's already been said, it looks like it'll only be as long as your usage stays above 250gb, although its unclear whether they will move you back down automatically, or if you have to request it. i do imagine that if you request it though, they will go ahead and charge you a downgrade fee (afaik €10 or so) like they do when you drop from say 30mbps to one of the lower packages.

bk109

vibe666 wrote: »

from what's already been said, it looks like it'll only be as long as your usage stays above 250gb, although its unclear whether they will move you back down automatically, or if you have to request it. i do imagine that if you request it though, they will go ahead and charge you a downgrade fee (afaik €10 or so) like they do when you drop from say 30mbps to one of the lower packages.

Yeah,I know... I did read the whole thread,but it was rather ambiguous,so I hoped someone that's been saved from the "clutches of the Extreme package" might know As for the 10€ downgrade fee... I wouldn't be surprised,UPC seems to charge for a lot of things,though knowing the alternative (Eircom) I don't hold it against them too much.

vibe666

its actually really annoying that they could be a totally awesome ISP and wipe the floor with every other ISP in the country with just a little bit more effort in a few key areas.

i was speaking to someone from airtricity the other day and i couldn't get over how great they are and couldn't help but think that if UPC ran the same business model they could have a total monopoly in Ireland.

they're so close, they already have by far the best product and its on the verge of getting several times better, so why not go the whole hog?

ScArY_Cheese

Got a letter about exceeding the FUP a few days ago. The didn't damn well tell me how much I've exceeded it by, either. They said they sent me a letter in september about it, too, which I did not get, and they're threatening to cut me off at the end of the month if I go over again.

I really have no idea how I downloaded over 250GB, I grab a few TV shows here and there, but nothing much. Bought some games on STEAM, but I can't have downloaded more than 100GB last month =/


Anyway way of monitoring the amount I download? Any free monitoring tools?

bk109

ScArY_Cheese wrote: »

Got a letter about exceeding the FUP a few days ago. The didn't damn well tell me how much I've exceeded it by, either. They said they sent me a letter in september about it, too, which I did not get, and they're threatening to cut me off at the end of the month if I go over again.

I really have no idea how I downloaded over 250GB, I grab a few TV shows here and there, but nothing much. Bought some games on STEAM, but I can't have downloaded more than 100GB last month =/


Anyway way of monitoring the amount I download? Any free monitoring tools?

Hmm,if you're using Vista or Win7 you can download the network meter gadget to do that if you want,I can post the linky for it

ScArY_Cheese

bk109 wrote: »

Hmm,if you're using Vista or Win7 you can download the network meter gadget to do that if you want,I can post the linky for it

That would be awesome if you could

bk109

ScArY_Cheese wrote: »

That would be awesome if you could

Here you go - http://addgadget.com/network_meter/ ,just when you install it remember to select the Network card you're using for the internet (In my case the Broadcom WLAN)

el dude

I'm using http://www.netlimiter.com/

There's hardly a simple software that is able to monitor the entire networks bandwidth usage though? Xbox and other PC's for instance?

vibe666

ideally you need to measure the data going in and out of the WAN port of your router which means getting a router that supports bandwidth monitoring in the firmware. some newer routers may offer it in their stock firmwares, but the most popular way would be using routers that support a 3rd party firmware like DDWRT, Tomato or a new firmware called gargoyle which allows you to do per IP bandwidth monitoring, if that's your thing.

I use a Linksys WRT54GS at the moment with Tomato on it and it works perfectly for my needs, but it all depends on what you're looking for out of a router. pretty soon i'll be upgrading my own router to something which supports gigabit ethernet and 802.11n wireless (preferably dual band, dual radio) but i guess we'll see when the time comes (which is going to be around the same time UPC do the 100mbps upgrades).

ronkmonster

vibe666 wrote: »

ideally you need to measure the data going in and out of the WAN port of your router which means getting a router that supports bandwidth monitoring in the firmware. some newer routers may offer it in their stock firmwares, but the most popular way would be using routers that support a 3rd party firmware like DDWRT, Tomato or a new firmware called gargoyle which allows you to do per IP bandwidth monitoring, if that's your thing.

I use a Linksys WRT54GS at the moment with Tomato on it and it works perfectly for my needs, but it all depends on what you're looking for out of a router. pretty soon i'll be upgrading my own router to something which supports gigabit ethernet and 802.11n wireless (preferably dual band, dual radio) but i guess we'll see when the time comes (which is going to be around the same time UPC do the 100mbps upgrades).

You don't need a new router for gigabit, just hook a gigabit switch up to router and everything else into switch.

vibe666

ronkmonster wrote: »

You don't need a new router for gigabit, just hook a gigabit switch up to router and everything else into switch.

no, but i DO need a new router as the WAN port on my current router isn't up to the task of servicing the 50-60mbps that i'll likely be getting in January (or whenever they actually roll it out). i've seen several reports on other forums dedicated to the router i have that reckon it struggles to cope with traffic above 35mbps so it's time for a change and i plan on the new router lasting at least as long as the last router did.

i already have two gigabit switches on my LAN and everything else on my LAN (except my router) is running at gigabit speeds, so i'm just going to be removing a potential future bottleneck during an upgrade because it's something that isn't going to make a huge amount of difference to the overall cost of my new router when i get it.

i picked wisely when i bought the router i have now (about 7-8 years ago afaik) and its served me well, and i plan on the new one lasting me just as long.

ronkmonster

vibe666 wrote: »

no, but i DO need a new router as the WAN port on my current router isn't up to the task of servicing the 50-60mbps that i'll likely be getting in January (or whenever they actually roll it out). i've seen several reports on other forums dedicated to the router i have that reckon it struggles to cope with traffic above 35mbps so it's time for a change and i plan on the new router lasting at least as long as the last router did.

i already have two gigabit switches on my LAN and everything else on my LAN (except my router) is running at gigabit speeds, so i'm just going to be removing a potential future bottleneck during an upgrade because it's something that isn't going to make a huge amount of difference to the overall cost of my new router when i get it.

i picked wisely when i bought the router i have now (about 7-8 years ago afaik) and its served me well, and i plan on the new one lasting me just as long.

True.

I'm looking into use a PC/laptop/netbook as a router if I can find something with low power usage but still able to handle higher bandwidths and have the extra features standard routers don't have.

vibe666

whatever the cheapest nettop or netbook you could find would do the job easily with a usb to ethernet dongle.

even whatever crappy old laptop you can find will do grand as a firewall box.

OS wise, m0n0wall is probably the best performer out of the available options, even if you were to get 100mbps UPC in January the cheapest netbook available will go like the clappers running m0nowall and its very easy to work with.

ronkmonster

vibe666 wrote: »

whatever the cheapest nettop or netbook you could find would do the job easily with a usb to ethernet dongle.

even whatever crappy old laptop you can find will do grand as a firewall box.

OS wise, m0n0wall is probably the best performer out of the available options, even if you were to get 100mbps UPC in January the cheapest netbook available will go like the clappers running m0nowall and its very easy to work with.

Got a 2nd netbook today to use as a lower power server so might use one of those (13 watts when idle). I could get 2 x usb to gigabit ethernet dongle and it'd do me up to 400/450 mbps(limited by usb2 speeds) which will be a few years off yet.

I'll take a look at m0n0wall, was looking at smoothwall but the vpn seems lacking.