Closing more threads

SectionF

I was the OP in this thread, which was closed , in my view, arbitrarily, just as I was about to express an opinion and ask a question. I do not know why it was closed. There is nothing racist, sexist, ageist, illegal or abusive in it. I cannot see how any person could take offence from anything said in it.

I still have not seen any principle set out on which this thread and others can be shut. Is it really at the whim of the mods? If it is, what does that say about the legitimacy of boards.ie as a forum for public debate? This is not a television show or a newspaper letters page. The Internet is not about to run out of time or space. So I really cannot fathom why so little tolerance is shown, and why those who have volunteered to police the debates are so eager to act when what seems at issue is a matter of opinion.

I hope that this post, which has been copied and screen-grabbed, is not removed, or the thread arbitrarily locked, as, whatever about their technical power, I do not think that the moderators have a moral or ethical authority to take that action.

Xavi6

Moved from soccer.

I couldn't be arsed repeating myself so if anyone wants my comments they can read the other thread referenced in the OP.

seamus

Your other thread was closed because forum feedback doesn't belong on a forum. It belongs in the Feedback forum. I'm going to leave this in Help Desk to keep the noise down.

Threads are locked for a number of reasons. The two main reasons why they're locked in my experience are:

1. They're spam.
2. They've degraded into crap talk and insults.

The latter is what happened to the thread which is what you were complaining about. We've learned through long experience that there's a fine line between allowing people space to voice their opinion and allowing people to voice, without any opinion or substance. When threads move from actual content into pointless crap and insults, it adds absolutely nothing to the forum and only serves as a place for one or two users to talk crap.

SectionF

Thanks for moving the thread to the relevant forum.

seamus wrote: »

Your other thread was closed because forum feedback doesn't belong on a forum. It belongs in the Feedback forum. I'm going to leave this in Help Desk to keep the noise down.

Threads are locked for a number of reasons. The two main reasons why they're locked in my experience are:

1. They're spam.
2. They've degraded into crap talk and insults.

The latter is what happened to the thread which is what you were complaining about. We've learned through long experience that there's a fine line between allowing people space to voice their opinion and allowing people to voice, without any opinion or substance. When threads move from actual content into pointless crap and insults, it adds absolutely nothing to the forum and only serves as a place for one or two users to talk crap.

Seamus, I think that any insults carried in the thread are, by any standard, rather mild. 'Crap talk' is a rather difficult concept to define, and surely calls for a value judgement. I think that's a very harsh judgement.
I saw some CT in the thread, and a couple of borderline insults exchanged between perhaps two individuals, in among some valuable and sincere contributions.
Boards.ie has a national standing now as a place where people congregate to discuss issues. Surely what is needed is mature moderation and not this capricious and often snide (as in 'couldn't be arsed', above) moderation by individuals who may be seen to identify with one side of the argument.

In any case, as I said before, it's not as if space were rationed. People have a right to be irrelevant and even silly. I'm sure I wouldn't have to travel far on boards.ie to find more examples of that. Is there some mechanism whereby this decision can be reviewed?

seamus

SectionF wrote: »

Seamus, I think that any insults carried in the thread are, by any standard, rather mild. 'Crap talk' is a rather difficult concept to define, and surely calls for a value judgement. I think that's a very harsh judgement.

The mildness of any insults is laregly irrelevant. The problem is that they stir people up and get them angry. And angry people are rarely capable of contributing much past their anger.
Yes, "Crap talk" is hard to define, but both you and I and everyone else knows when we see it. I'm not going to pretend I read the whole thread, but the last few posts gave a good indicator.

Boards.ie has a national standing now as a place where people congregate to discuss issues. Surely what is needed is mature moderation and not this capricious and often snide (as in 'couldn't be arsed', above) moderation by individuals who may be seen to identify with one side of the argument.

This is a rather general comment and the only answer I can give you is that you can't please all of the people all of the time. We've seen it on other forums; There seems to be one or two people who just find themselves on the opposite side to everyone else, on every topic. They naturally feel cornered and the moderators are then accused of taking sides. I'm not going to pretend that moderators are opinionless drones, but the scale of "side-taking" is far less than is made out and the number of biased decisions made is a fraction of that. If you really and truely believe that a moderator is consistently biased in their actions, then you can start a thread here with as many examples as you can find. On the other hand, if you think a single decision was biased, then PMing the moderator directly to discuss it, may get your point across.

In any case, as I said before, it's not as if space were rationed. People have a right to be irrelevant and even silly. I'm sure I wouldn't have to travel far on boards.ie to find more examples of that. Is there some mechanism whereby this decision can be reviewed?

No, not really. The problem with silliness is that there are a lot of people on this site. Silliness by two posters very quickly turns into silliness by 20 posters and destroys any chance of a comprehensive discussion. That's not to say all discussion must be very serious and all contributions must be 100% relevant, but once the balance between relevant and non-relevant starts to tip the wrong way, that's the end of it.

There are forums on boards.ie to satisfy those who want to talk without any particular direction, which is why we're less tolerant of "chat" within forums with a specific topic.

If you really think that a thread wasn't "done", you can PM the mod who locked it and plead your case. They may recommend that you start a new thread along similar lines. The content of a thread is really out of your hands though and you might find the same posters come along and turn it into mush again.

GuanYin

The OP posted asking about Sunderland. By the time I closed it, the thread had, despite a warning, moved from "The EPL vs the LOI" to "who is a real soccer supporter and who isn't".

Neither of which were on topic, both of which were causing trolling, insults and have repeatedly done so every time they've been addressed.

As for the topic of why people don't support the Irish league boring me, it doesn't. I find it very interesting. BUT, there have been countless threads on the Irish soccer league vs. the English league which all descend into petty insults.

Now I do agree that users derailing threads shouldn't get a thread closed. I think rather, the offenders should be sanctioned and the thread should live. In this case however, I was struggling to find more than a couple of on-topic posts and you know, didn't want to ban the entire thread.

So yeah, I actually don't mind if you open a thread to discuss EPL vs. LOI, so long as you actually open a thread on this topic and not hijack another. If you do, it will be strictly moderated and if users turn it into a bitch fest, well, it won't be allowed.

As for "The Sunderland Thing"... if you want to talk about Sunderland issues, there is a Sunderland superthread or if you really want to make a point about Sunderland and how the club is run, I'll re-open the thread, but anyone dragging it off topic (ie. even a hint of "I'm a better supporter because I watch home soccer") they'll be infracted and banned.

SectionF

There is no rule governing what is 'crap', an entirely qualitative and wholly subjective concept. And there is no appeal mechanism. That is a charter for abuse of power.

I have no intention of pleading my case on a grace and favour basis with a moderator, as if we lived in some feudal virtual society. The fact is that the thread was closed on a whim with no clear criterion for the decision.

I would simply like to record here my deep objection to the choking of free debate on the thread, and the operation of censorship by boards.ie, which fundamentally undermines its validity.

I don't use those words lightly. If you can show me where the thread broke any rule of boards.ie, or the forum within it, then I'll happy change my view. If you're not, then we can look at boards.ie as a platform for debate where free speech, and the modes of expression of points of view, are allowed only if they are pleasing to its appointed thought police.

seamus

I'm not going to get into the "free speech" debate because it's irrelevant here.

The fact is that moderation and control of thread content is precisely what allows boards.ie to function and is one contributing factor to its success. Without it, much discussion would descend into rows and incomprehensible gibberish (especially on the soccer forum), which stifles and destroys free expression more than moderation ever could. A thread doesn't have to break any rules to be locked, and we're not going to change that.

SectionF

GuanYin wrote: »

The OP posted asking about Sunderland. By the time I closed it, the thread had, despite a warning, moved from "The EPL vs the LOI" to "who is a real soccer supporter and who isn't".

The Sunderland phenomenon, even as it unravels, is deeply relevant to why Irish people do not support Irish football. It is the sharp end of an issue that is constantly debated in the forum, and is much more layered and complex than 'EPL v LoI', however uninteresting that may be for individual members or moderators.

It is quite natural for a discussion to develop from the specific to the general, and if the general is what animates people then so much the better.

As with all free speech, on any topic, if someone doesn't approve or is not interested, they don't have to read or respond. There are many such forums and threads on boards.ie which I'm sure we all treat in this way. If the thread degenerates, then warn/punish the perpetrators rather than suppressing the ideas.

GuanYin

This isn't about free speech, this is about posting on topic with civility and respect. When posters start claiming that others "aren't true fans" and we descend into that level of interaction, well, no, we won't allow it.

True free speech would allow you to post whatever you want, wherever you want on boards.ie. You know that doesn't exist or happen and it isn't going to happen any day soon. This is a private forum on a privately owned site and it is one of the most successful fora on THE most successful site in your country.

True, we can always do better, but I'm confident the number of posters happy not to see another trainwreck happily outweigh those who want to post their gripes about Sunderland or are upset because noone wants to go watch a local league game with them.

SectionF

GuanYin wrote: »

This is a private forum on a privately owned site and it is one of the most successful fora on THE most successful site in your country.

OK. I'm glad we cleared that up. It's about property ownership. Thank you for your candour.

GuanYin

SectionF wrote: »

OK. I'm glad we cleared that up. It's about property ownership. Thank you for your candour.

Way to selectively quote to twist the point :rolleyes: mature ++


End of the day. You want to post to discuss issues in soccer, go for it dude.

You want to post to talk down to other supporters or twist discussion in a way that causes friction, you won't find any joy here.

SectionF

Sorry GY, but with all due respect the rest of your post was waffle about the nature of free speech that isn't really worth debating. However, in saying that boards.ie is privately owned and therefore you can do what you like you are making a very important point about the nature of public debate and the validity as a forum of boards.ie
This is way beyond one thread in the soccer forum.
If you don't hold that opinion, or if you or boards.ie want to qualify it, then you're perfectly free to do so.
I don't think you are free as a mod. to frame the discussion about the thread in a partisan way, i.e. LoI fans mocking non-LoI. It's much richer and more complex than that, but it doesn't suit your particular agenda, coming from one side of the debate.
As for maturity and rolling eyes... I'll file that with the 'couldn't be arsed'.

GuanYin

SectionF wrote: »

I'll file that with the 'couldn't be arsed'.

Well if you're not willing to enter into discussion here or in soccer in a mature and civil manner, I suggest you don't bother wasting our time.

SectionF

GuanYin wrote: »

Well if you're not willing to enter into discussion here or in soccer in a mature and civil manner, I suggest you don't bother wasting our time.

GY, I think there is a misunderstanding here. I'm quoting one of your fellow mods, and in doing so I am raising it precisely as a failure to discuss the issue in a civil manner. And I'm sorry, but I don't think that raising the issue of free speech and censorship, and the basis on which opinions are barred, is a waste of time.

GuanYin

I'm not even sure what you're asking anymore.

No, there is no 100% free speech on boards.ie, so it is, if you will excuse me, a stupid point to make. We all operate under certain guidelines to ensure civility, respect and lack of trolling/flaming on the site. So no, you can't say what you want. You know that by now. It isn't me being a nazi or my power trip, it is the same on all fora. Try PI for instance.

The thread in question had lost civility, there was disrespect and it had descended onto the border of trolling and petty squabbling. When you start telling someone else they aren't a "real supporter" you're insulting them. Insulting posters in against the rules. I closed the thread rather than issue sanctions.

We're peacekeepers in the soccer forum. Certain users had disturbed the peace. We removed the point of tension.

If anyone wants to discuss the issue while remaining respectful of other posters, they're entitled to do so. The minute the respect leaves, the thread is gone. If someone wants to tell EPL supporters that they're not true football fans, go somewhere else. Seriously, just go. There is a place in the forum for supporters of all teams so long as they remain respectful.

What you guys do is up to you.

SectionF

GuanYin wrote: »

I'm not even sure what you're asking anymore.

No, there is no 100% free speech on boards.ie, so it is, if you will excuse me, a stupid point to make. We all operate under certain guidelines to ensure civility, respect and lack of trolling/flaming on the site. So no, you can't say what you want. You know that by now. It isn't me being a nazi or my power trip, it is the same on all fora. Try PI for instance.

The thread in question had lost civility, there was disrespect and it had descended onto the border of trolling and petty squabbling. When you start telling someone else they aren't a "real supporter" you're insulting them. Insulting posters in against the rules. I closed the thread rather than issue sanctions.

We're peacekeepers in the soccer forum. Certain users had disturbed the peace. We removed the point of tension.

If anyone wants to discuss the issue while remaining respectful of other posters, they're entitled to do so. The minute the respect leaves, the thread is gone. If someone wants to tell EPL supporters that they're not true football fans, go somewhere else. Seriously, just go. There is a place in the forum for supporters of all teams so long as they remain respectful.

What you guys do is up to you.

Well, in my last post I clearly was asking, as politely and clearly as possible, why you were misquoting me.

I started this thread to ask which rules govern freedom of expression on the message board. I think it's pretty self-evident that I wasn't referring to free speech as anarchy, and that I would expect racism etc not to be tolerated.

You closed my thread without any reference to any specific rule, on the basis of a very vague notion of civility and respect. Can you cite specifically which posts in the thread you are referring to? You didn't cite any in the original thread when you brought the hammer down.

I don't see any slights in the thread that a moderately robust football fan would find difficult to recover from. I see good posts, posts with which I agree, posts with which I disagree, and posts that I would consider plain stupid, but nothing to warrant what you have done.

In other threads, often I have seen posts freely made that could be considered gratuitously offensive, in the opposite direction, to the world view of a minority on the board, but I haven't seen any action by mods, or calls for action.

If some people are uncomfortable with the point of view of a small minority that points out some of the absurdities in how things are, that, I suggest to you, is healthy. It would be a dull world indeed if we all agreed with each other.

GuanYin

Wait a second...

You're asking why the Sunderland thread was closed or why the thread you started was closed?

If it is the first, I have explained it. But you didn't start that thread, unless Iang87 is a duplicate account, which isn't allowed in soccer.

If it is the second, I didn't close the thread, so I don't know what your point is in reference to me. But the answer is, you started a thread about moderation in the soccer forum and that isn't the place for it.

SectionF

I respectfully suggest you read back.

The thread which I started in the Soccer forum, and which was closed by Xavi6, without good cause, referred to the closing of the Sunderland thread.

The thread we are in now was moved here by Xavi6, and I don't have a problem with that. Here, you brought the discussion back to the original Sunderland thread. And I don't have a problem with your introducing that (although you are now questioning it.)

These threads are of a piece: they raise the question as to what standards are applied in the regulation of people's beliefs and opinions in a public forum in which people are likely to disagree. The only concrete answer you have given so far is that you can do what you like, and members can take it or leave it, because boards.ie is privately owned.

There is no explicit statement, as far as I can see, in the charter, FAQ or other information available on boards.ie that commits it philosophically to facilitating free discussion and open dialogue. However, much is made of 'common sense'. Most people applying that faculty would come to the conclusion that, if it is to have any credibility, casual censorship and collective gagging, as opposed to individual sanctions, should not be a part of its modus operandi.

I cannot see anything in the boards.ie charter or in the football forum's charter that justifies the closing down of the original Sunderland thread or of the thread which I started in response.

Boards.ie Charter

While each forum has its own forum charter, the general Boards.ie Charter applies to every forum. Common sense prevails when posting on Boards.ie but below is a brief guide;

* Personal Abuse will not be tolerated – Attack the post and not the poster.
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* Duplicate accounts are not permitted - if you require a duplicate account, please PM one of the admins to discuss it.
* Txt or l33t speak is not permitted. Its very, VERY, hard to read posts constructed in that way!

All in all, common sense helps a lot. The above are guidelines - If you are acting out of what could be considered 'normal behaviour', don't be surprised if you get a holiday from Boards.ie.

Soccer Board Charter 14th July 2008 - Read This First!

The Soccer Board is a restricted access board. Your access here is a privilege, not a right and can be withdrawn if you do not adhere to the rules outlined below.

This board is for talking about anything even vaguely related to Soccer. It’s as simple as that really.

When posting, please be aware of these rules:

* ABUSE: Prejudice will not be tolerated, be it in the form of racism, sexism, sectarianism or any other form. Outbursts of personal abuse be it directed at other board members or at groups of fans or sports personalities people will not be tolerated. We reserve the right to edit/move/delete such posts as we see fit and issue bans to the poster of such. The basic rule is keeping it civil; you can have friendly banter without resorting to personal abuse (for more detail on mod policy on abuse, see below).
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seamus

SectionF wrote: »

I cannot see anything in the boards.ie charter or in the football forum's charter that justifies the closing down of the original Sunderland thread or of the thread which I started in response.

There's nothing in the charter about them because locking a thread isn't a form of punishment for breaching the rules.

SectionF

What is it? What you are saying seems to be that there is no justification for it, because none is needed as it is not formally classified as punishment.

That doesn't make it fair or put it above criticism.

We may not know what formal status closing a thread has, but it most certainly is punitive -- much more so than any individual sanction.

SectionF

(Just got a notification ordering me to edit my signature, with which I have complied. Odd that I haven't had one before now I got into this debate.)

seamus

SectionF wrote: »

What is it? What you are saying seems to be that there is no justification for it, because none is needed as it is not formally classified as punishment.
We may not know what formal status closing a thread has, but it most certainly is punitive -- much more so than any individual sanction.

It's not punishment, plain and simple. I can see that you clearly don't understand the purpose of locking threads if you see it as a punishment. Nobody is being punished by a thread being locked, as the thread doesn't belong to anybody.

SectionF wrote: »

(Just got a notification ordering me to edit my signature, with which I have complied. Odd that I haven't had one before now I got into this debate.)

You made yourself more visible and your signature was spotted. It has nothing to do with this debate.

SectionF

seamus wrote: »

It's not punishment, plain and simple.

We'll just have to disagree on that. If someone who is moderating a discussion orders me and everyone else in a discussion to shut up, and enforces that, then that is punishment.
You can differ, and no doubt you or another mod will have the last word on this, but, for me, that is not a credible or valid way in which to organize a place of debate.

seamus wrote: »

You made yourself more visible and your signature was spotted. It has nothing to do with this debate.

Not as if they're difficult to spot. One rule for the quiescent...

Gordon

SectionF wrote: »

Not as if they're difficult to spot. One rule for the quiescent...

It's quite simple, your sig is difficult to spot by the greater populace of boards if you post in a small number of fora. Now that you are posting in this forum you are visible to more users. Don't bother with the clique finger pointing please.

There is an active 'SigPo' thread here and people that are seen having a signature that doesn't conform to the rules will eventually be seen by people that care about how the site looks and feels for all the users. Having an oversized sig is annoying for some and breaks the flow of threads and causes view delays for people that don't have broadband. People that care about this will post on that thread and people that are kind to other users will notify other users about the sig violation. Some people will just remove your sig if it's too big, I do this.