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Mother wants more maintenance

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    #62
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    merlie wrote: »
    I am basically just a nice person and I see family as being more important than the financial whims and woes that come with separation.

    Thats was worth posting.

    Of course your ex may not have been able to afford maintenance( I dunno but thats not the point you kept up the access no matter what) -its really nice to see someone post on thyat and an alternative like a friend as mediator.

    It may not help OP but as kids get older things settle down.


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    #63
    tippbhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭tippbhoy


    niall1979 wrote: »
    Hi,
    I have been paying child maintenance for 3 yrs now.The mother of my child was working until a few months ago.now she has applied for the lone parents allowance through the department of family affairs,who sent out an assessor who means tested her. He told her that she needed to get me to pay €433 per month. an increase of €133 on child support. I think i have been very fair with what i have been paying so far, considering her circumstances and mine. I also have my daughter 9 days a month.

    She told me they will come after me for the extra money if i don't pay.
    can they do this?
    I read today that there are 80000 lone parent allowances for single mothers and only 10000 of them recieve child maintenance from thier childs father. thats 70000 who avoid paying anything. I think that is a disgrace in itself but feel good that i am one of the 10000 that do pay it. but many of these 70000 fathers could be paying in cash.

    can anyone shed any light on the subject, Will they come after me for more money? I can't really afford it and doubt i'll be means tested for the extra money.

    Thanks

    The social welfare have no entitlement to extract money from you. The mother is required to seek a contribution from the father should she want to receive the lone parent allowance. The SW opinion in this case is that you should pay more. In this case, she can lodge an application with the courts for a maintenance increase. In court you both will have to produce a statement of means. If she shows that the child is costing more than double what you are paying a week and there is surplus in your income (this isn't a rule), it is likely it will be granted if she pursues the line that you should pay half what it costs to keep the child.

    In my case the €50 a week on the childs clothes she claimed went badly against me ( i spend less on clothes myself than that!) but the judge didn't seem to be interested in my views on that. I now pay €100, currently she is refusing to allow me to take the child away for my granted access that I'm legally entitled to, or saying the child is sick and I cant take her away. I've gone from supervised visits 4 Sundays a month for a few hours to 2 Sundays a month, and now I'm supposed to be able to take her home and she won't allow it as my daughter "isn't ready and is upset for weeks when i took her away a few times" even though she was in better form in my home than I've seen her around her mothers home. This is all stipulated in court orders btw. Sorry having a bit of a rant I'm so upset, I travel 6 hours round trip to see her and then take her to my parents house an hour away but that doesn't seem to matter to her or the court....

    AFAIK, €150 is the max a week that the district court can order. €80 seems the average but again depends on the upkeep of the child e.g. creche etc.
    If she lodges an increase with court, just make sure you put in further access at your side and get them both heard at the same time. Best of luck, the only thing that keeps me going is when she's older she'll be able to decided what she wants, and it'll all be worth it in the long run.


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    #64
    LINDA08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭LINDA08


    The Corinthian wrote: »

    As for what the DSW has told her, I would get more information on the subject. It sounds as if they have told her that she has to get €100 p.w. from you (SW always think in weeks, not months), which seems odd as while they may instruct her to get a court order to show that she is getting maintenance, there is no requirement AFAIK that she get a particular level of maintenance to qualify for SW assistance - quite the opposite, actually.

    Had a similar query myself with Social Welfare last week regarding maintenance, I have a court order for €60 week from my childs father but received a letter from Maintenance Recovery Section looking for name and address of the father following being awarded Lone Parents. I rang them and they have advised me that the norm to get from the father of a child born outside of marriage is €100 so they will look for him to contribute an additional €40 per week, if he agrees to pay it to me directly I get to keep it all but if not they will recover the €40 directly from him and they keep it. I said I have a court order for €60 and they said it didn't matter that he needs to provide the €100 and if not then if necessary I need to bring him back to courts to get the amount adjusted.

    They did say if he was unemployed they would not expect him to contribute. I know that this will cause major problems for me personally with my childs father as he will see this as a witch hunt after him, and the mad thing is I'm happy to be getting what was awarded by the court.


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    #65
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    LINDA08 wrote: »
    Had a similar query myself with Social Welfare last week regarding maintenance, I have a court order for €60 week from my childs father but received a letter from Maintenance Recovery Section looking for name and address of the father following being awarded Lone Parents. I rang them and they have advised me that the norm to get from the father of a child born outside of marriage is €100 so they will look for him to contribute an additional €40 per week, if he agrees to pay it to me directly I get to keep it all but if not they will recover the €40 directly from him and they keep it. I said I have a court order for €60 and they said it didn't matter that he needs to provide the €100 and if not then if necessary I need to bring him back to courts to get the amount adjusted.

    They did say if he was unemployed they would not expect him to contribute. I know that this will cause major problems for me personally with my childs father as he will see this as a witch hunt after him, and the mad thing is I'm happy to be getting what was awarded by the court.

    It seems to me that they are hamming it up.

    My the SW are short of money -in any event get them to write to you and him because it is the courts and not them who decide.


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    #66
    LINDA08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭LINDA08


    CDfm wrote: »
    It seems to me that they are hamming it up.

    My the SW are short of money -in any event get them to write to you and him because it is the courts and not them who decide.


    Hi CDfm thats exactly what I was thinking, they do intend writing to him, I know this will cause major hassle for me as he was pee'd off enough when the court order was made. I have been checking the web trying to find out if the Social Welfare can force someone to pay more than the court has ordered. Yes it would be nice to get €40 extra a week but def. not worth the hassle for me.


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    #67
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    CDfm wrote: »
    It seems to me that they are hamming it up.
    I'd agree. To begin with there is no 'normal' level of maintenance, just as there is no 'normal' level of the father's income, which would be an important determinant to maintenance level. I also think that having been awarded a certain figure, unless this has been in place for a long time, a court is unlikely to vary it for the benefit of the DSW.

    If I was a betting man, if this is what is happening, it is probably as the DSW are under pressure to make ends meet and chasing fathers to offset LPA is an easy target.

    It seems a pretty cynical way to cut costs though.


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    #68
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    LINDA08 wrote: »
    I have been checking the web trying to find out if the Social Welfare can force someone to pay more than the court has ordered.
    Easiest way to answer that question is to ask them to put it in writing. If they do then there may be some truth to it (although the official you're speaking to may still be mistaken), if not then they're bullshìtting you.

    Remember, it's only official if it's in writing - anything else is just conversation.


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    #69
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    It looks like they are trying to use the model that is used in the uk to 'recover' money from
    fathers.


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    #70
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It looks like they are trying to use the model that is used in the uk to 'recover' money from
    fathers.
    In economic terms this is akin to what is called a moral tax. This is where a government seeks to raise revenue by increasing taxation on goods or services that one can morally justify, such as tobacco, alcohol or gambling.

    Going after fathers to help balance the books is essentially based upon the same principle, in that it will be argued that it is their responsibility to support the child, not the state's.


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    #71
    LINDA08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭LINDA08


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    In economic terms this is akin to what is called a moral tax. This is where a government seeks to raise revenue by increasing taxation on goods or services that one can morally justify, such as tobacco, alcohol or gambling.

    Going after fathers to help balance the books is essentially based upon the same principle, in that it will be argued that it is their responsibility to support the child, not the state's.


    Agree with you thats what it appears to be to me too. The problem is that if the Government would just come out and say that they expect fathers in employment to pay €100 per week towards their children then it would show more clarity and allow for debate including what the courts thinking on this would be.

    The way I see what they are doing if what I was told by the Department is actually true is that they are asking mothers to provide information on the fathers and then sending them letters telling them to pay more by consent or not (if in employment), this ends up raising queries like this one by Niall where he feels he is being unfairly asked to increase his contribution and people assume its the mother pulling a fast one.

    I know for a fact my ex will feel the same if not worse when he receives the letter, I will no doubt get 'I am contributing enough and you were always a money grabbing b***h', hassle I could do without I'd rather do without the money, he will presume I got the Social Welfare to follow him for more. For the meantime I think i'l keep my head down and wait for the backlash in a few weeks or months.


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    #72
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    LINDA08 wrote: »
    The way I see what they are doing if what I was told by the Department is actually true is that they are asking mothers to provide information on the fathers and then sending them letters telling them to pay more by consent or not (if in employment), this ends up raising queries like this one by Niall where he feels he is being unfairly asked to increase his contribution and people assume its the mother pulling a fast one.
    The DSW would be attempting to increase revenue and thus is essentially shaking the tree to see what comes out. Even without real powers to pursue fathers (i.e. all they can do is persuade or trick mothers into seeking motions of variance), it will result in a number of successful increases and thus count towards the bottom line for them for very little cost.

    Any damage to the relationship between the parents, or the headaches incurred, is collateral damage. Not their problem.

    This is why I would get what they are saying in writing - if they are indeed shaking the tree, they will not put anything down on paper as they will know that they could potentially end up in very deep political and legal hot water.


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    #73
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    LINDA08 wrote: »
    Had a similar query myself with Social Welfare last week regarding maintenance, I have a court order for €60 week from my childs father but received a letter from Maintenance Recovery Section looking for name and address of the father following being awarded Lone Parents. I rang them and they have advised me that the norm to get from the father of a child born outside of marriage is €100 so they will look for him to contribute an additional €40 per week, if he agrees to pay it to me directly I get to keep it all but if not they will recover the €40 directly from him and they keep it. I said I have a court order for €60 and they said it didn't matter that he needs to provide the €100 and if not then if necessary I need to bring him back to courts to get the amount adjusted.

    They did say if he was unemployed they would not expect him to contribute. I know that this will cause major problems for me personally with my childs father as he will see this as a witch hunt after him, and the mad thing is I'm happy to be getting what was awarded by the court.

    I've heard of the maintenance recovery section, hadn't heard of the OP case were the SW officer decided he needed to pay extra.

    I've heard of judges awarding maintenance even were SW was the only income.
    LINDA08 wrote: »
    Agree with you thats what it appears to be to me too. The problem is that if the Government would just come out and say that they expect fathers in employment to pay €100 per week towards their children then it would show more clarity and allow for debate including what the courts thinking on this would be.

    The way I see what they are doing if what I was told by the Department is actually true is that they are asking mothers to provide information on the fathers and then sending them letters telling them to pay more by consent or not (if in employment), this ends up raising queries like this one by Niall where he feels he is being unfairly asked to increase his contribution and people assume its the mother pulling a fast one.

    I know for a fact my ex will feel the same if not worse when he receives the letter, I will no doubt get 'I am contributing enough and you were always a money grabbing b***h', hassle I could do without I'd rather do without the money, he will presume I got the Social Welfare to follow him for more. For the meantime I think i'l keep my head down and wait for the backlash in a few weeks or months.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    The DSW would be attempting to increase revenue and thus is essentially shaking the tree to see what comes out. Even without real powers to pursue fathers (i.e. all they can do is persuade or trick mothers into seeking motions of variance), it will result in a number of successful increases and thus count towards the bottom line for them for very little cost.

    Any damage to the relationship between the parents, or the headaches incurred, is collateral damage. Not their problem.

    This is why I would get what they are saying in writing - if they are indeed shaking the tree, they will not put anything down on paper as they will know that they could potentially end up in very deep political and legal hot water.

    The Maintenance Recovery has always been there, though it seems to have been rarely used. AFAIK, they would assess an amount on the father, say the €100 a week and it would be up to him to appeal it with a statement of means.

    I wouldn't say the Unit itself is Revenue raising, more similar to the CSA in England. The problem is it was under used before and now when money is tight, they'll probably use it more.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #74
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    K-9 wrote: »
    The Maintenance Recovery has always been there, though it seems to have been rarely used. AFAIK, they would assess an amount on the father, say the €100 a week and it would be up to him to appeal it with a statement of means.
    Looks like you're right: http://www.solo.ie/law/5026.htm

    The joys of gender-based indentured servitude...


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    #75
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    The joys of gender-based indentured servitude...

    A tad harsh.

    They take into account your income and expenditure.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #76
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    K-9 wrote: »
    They take into account your income and expenditure.
    Until the next time they decide to shake you down.


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    #77
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    niall1979 wrote: »
    Hi,
    I have been paying child maintenance for 3 yrs now.The mother of my child was working until a few months ago.now she has applied for the lone parents allowance through the department of family affairs,who sent out an assessor who means tested her. He told her that she needed to get me to pay €433 per month. an increase of €133 on child support. I think i have been very fair with what i have been paying so far, considering her circumstances and mine. I also have my daughter 9 days a month.

    She told me they will come after me for the extra money if i don't pay.
    can they do this?
    I read today that there are 80000 lone parent allowances for single mothers and only 10000 of them recieve child maintenance from thier childs father. thats 70000 who avoid paying anything. I think that is a disgrace in itself but feel good that i am one of the 10000 that do pay it. but many of these 70000 fathers could be paying in cash.

    can anyone shed any light on the subject, Will they come after me for more money? I can't really afford it and doubt i'll be means tested for the extra money.

    Thanks


    Hi Op, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but glanced through them so forgive me if I'm repeating something that has been covered.

    You say you've been fair in paying €300 per month which is €75 per week toward maintenance for your daughter. I'm curious as to how you'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot and you were being paid the same amount of maintenance from the mother of your child? Do you think a €75 from you and a €75 contribution from her coming to a total of €150 per week is enough to raise a child on?
    If you guys were married I imagine you'd be spending alot more on your child.


    Don't mean to be Devil's advocate but just saying it like I see it...


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    #78
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Splendour wrote: »
    Hi Op, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but glanced through them so forgive me if I'm repeating something that has been covered.

    You say you've been fair in paying €300 per month which is €75 per week toward maintenance for your daughter. I'm curious as to how you'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot and you were being paid the same amount of maintenance from the mother of your child? Do you think a €75 from you and a €75 contribution from her coming to a total of €150 per week is enough to raise a child on?
    If you guys were married I imagine you'd be spending alot more on your child.


    Don't mean to be Devil's advocate but just saying it like I see it...


    The OP is looking for advice on his situation.


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    #79
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Splendour wrote: »
    Do you think a €75 from you and a €75 contribution from her coming to a total of €150 per week is enough to raise a child on?
    Depends.

    To begin with it depends upon what he can afford. There are plenty of two-parent families who cannot spend €150 per week because the money is simply not there.

    Then it assumes that this is all he spends. He's an involved father, by his own admission and in the process of seeking overnight access. Do you imagine that he does not spend a penny more than maintenance? That when he spends time with his child he will not put his hand in his pocket? No Christmas presents? Leaves all the purchases to the mother? Big and unlikely assumption given his active involvement.


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    #80
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    DarkJager wrote: »
    The OP is looking for advice on his situation.

    His situation is that he thinks it's unfair. I'm merely pointing out that it may not be as unfair as he thinks.


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    #81
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Depends.

    To begin with it depends upon what he can afford. There are plenty of two-parent families who cannot spend €150 per week because the money is simply not there.

    Then it assumes that this is all he spends. He's an involved father, by his own admission and in the process of seeking overnight access. Do you imagine that he does not spend a penny more than maintenance? That when he spends time with his child he will not put his hand in his pocket? No Christmas presents? Leaves all the purchases to the mother? Big and unlikely assumption given his active involvement.

    Of course it depends. You too seem to be making assumptions here...

    The mother of this child has been working so I'm assuming she's had to pay for some kind of childcare-and that in itself mounts to a small fortune. And this business of 'money not being there' doesn't wash. The mother of this child obviously has to find it, so why not the Dad? Why in a single/separated situation where kids are involved is it usually up to the Mom to be main bread winner? I don't understand this...


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    #82
    the GALL
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭the GALL


    Splendour wrote: »
    Of course it depends. You too seem to be making assumptions here...

    The mother of this child has been working so I'm assuming she's had to pay for some kind of childcare-and that in itself mounts to a small fortune. And this business of 'money not being there' doesn't wash. The mother of this child obviously has to find it, so why not the Dad? Why in a single/separated situation where kids are involved is it usually up to the Mom to be main bread winner? I don't understand this...

    Just a thought Splendour but you may want to read the thread in full it might shead some light for you and answer some of your questions... .....as i said Just a thought


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    #83
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    CDfm wrote: »
    Me first- I want you as my ex.:)

    And have the state pay for what you are responsibile for-I gather you're not serious..?


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    #84
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    the GALL wrote: »
    Just a thought Splendour but you may want to read the thread in full it might shead some light for you and answer some of your questions... .....as i said Just a thought
    Splendour wrote: »
    And have the state pay for what you are responsibile for-I gather you're not serious..?

    I take it you read it then?

    Interesting you come back with that quote.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #85
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    K-9 wrote: »
    I take it you read it then?

    Interesting you come back with that quote.

    Yes, I read through it quickly, that struck me and I was surprised tbh.

    Having read through (mainly the OP's posts), I still stand by my posts. I can't see, apart from the the fact that the child's grandmother minds the child, what difference any of it makes. Maybe you could enlighten me on what I'm missing out on?


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    #86
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Splendour wrote: »
    Yes, I read through it quickly, that struck me and I was surprised tbh.

    Having read through (mainly the OP's posts), I still stand by my posts. I can't see, apart from the the fact that the child's grandmother minds the child, what difference any of it makes. Maybe you could enlighten me on what I'm missing out on?

    Look, maintenance is one of the issues people will never agree on. There's always a but, on both sides.

    Personally, I think he is paying a bit on the low side, but we don't know his income and expenses.

    Can't get blood from a stone etc.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #87
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Can we please keep this thread civil and not resort to antagonistic posting.


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    #88
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Splendour wrote: »
    Of course it depends. You too seem to be making assumptions here...

    The mother of this child has been working so I'm assuming she's had to pay for some kind of childcare-and that in itself mounts to a small fortune. And this business of 'money not being there' doesn't wash. The mother of this child obviously has to find it, so why not the Dad? Why in a single/separated situation where kids are involved is it usually up to the Mom to be main bread winner? I don't understand this...

    Some Dads dont fit into the stereotype model.The roles of Mums and Dads have blurred.

    Fathers change nappies and push prams and are more active in their kids lives. My 15 y/o daughter comes to me with her problems.

    A father who is an active father will want to be an equal carer and will want either sole or joint custody. He will want his own home to do that in.He will not want to pay childcare costs to do what he is capable of doing.

    It makes no sense to me why if a guy works hard and pays maintenance why the social welfare would come after him.

    I saw the means test data for the D of SW - how can a guy keep a seperate home for his kids on the type of budget they assume.

    The D of SW can give money to people to buy cars and the full cost of setting up as taxi drivers but try applying for housing as a single Dad.


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    #89
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    CDfm wrote: »
    I saw the means test data for the D of SW - how can a guy keep a seperate home for his kids on the type of budget they assume.

    I'd love to see that means test data.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #90
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'd love to see that means test data.

    read the links on the thread then


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    #91
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    CDfm wrote: »
    It makes no sense to me why if a guy works hard and pays maintenance why the social welfare would come after him.

    Maybe 'cos the children are his (and the mother's) responsibility? I obviously agree that when a family separates it is more expensive to run two homes than one and a little help may be needed.In a lot of cases though(especially during the Celtic boom) there's more than enough money being made by some of these parents to pay a bit more for there own kids...


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