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Minimum wage - time for a decrease?

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    #92
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Fine, so how about dealing with my point about the effect of the low U.S. minimum wage and their very poor social welfare system?

    Real incomes in the U.S. have been declining for the low paid since the 60s (even during periods of economic expansion) while the percentage of wealth held by the richest 1% has skyrocketed

    The result is that millions of working people of the U.S. found themselves swimming in debt just to maintain the same (or worse) standard of living their grandparents had in the 50s and 60s (which they could maintain debt free)


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    #93
    deadhead13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭deadhead13


    I think people are over-estimating the number people on the mimimum wage and the effect of reducing it would have on the current situation.


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    #94
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    deadhead13 wrote: »
    I think people are over-estimating the number people on the mimimum wage and the effect of reducing it would have on the current situation.


    If I really said what I think of that comment, I would get banned for life from this forum. An utterly disgraceful comment. There are hundreds of thousands of workers on minimum wage (or within a euro or two of min wage) and these are mostly very hard workers struggling to get by in one of the most expensive countries in the world to live.


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    #95
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    deadhead13 wrote: »
    I think people are over-estimating the number people on the mimimum wage and the effect of reducing it would have on the current situation.

    The matter is not the number of people on the minimum wage- its the manner in which jobs which might otherwise be in the economy are not there- as its economically unattractive for people to work at those levels, when the social welfare system is set at such a high level.

    Reducing the minimum wage, reducing the cost of living, reducing social welfare entitlements- all in tandem- will produce tangible jobs, albeit at lower levels in society- but they would be jobs nonetheless, people would be productively employed, instead of reliant on our social welfare system. In time, as they became more skilled at those lower level jobs, they could aspire to promotional opportunities or employment elsewhere, making use of those skills that they might have learnt.

    Its not an argument where lowering the minimum wage is a panacea- its not on its own- it has to be part of the larger picture.

    The big problem at the moment is politicians are tinkering piecemeal with different options to see what is more palatable to the public, and what can be sold to the media- instead of making the hard decisions and exercising the decisive leadership that we so badly need.

    S.


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    #96
    deadhead13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭deadhead13


    Reducing employers PRSI contributions would be the a more ethical approach.


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    #97
    grahamo
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭grahamo


    deadhead13 wrote: »
    Reducing employers PRSI contributions would be the a more ethical approach.

    The Employers PRSI rate here is already one of the lowest in Europe.


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    #98
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    smccarrick wrote: »
    I don't support the abolition of the minimum wage- but it must be acknowledged that it is set at an artificially high level, especially in comparison to the countries we are trying to compete with (which is one factor in our astronomical prices). Our average industrial wage is falling, wages in all sectors with the exception of the financial sector- with still seems to be increasing for some strange reason, are all falling- the argument has always been that the minimum wage, social welfare benefits etc were to be pegged relative to the average industrial wage- and this was the justification for the large increases in recent years- now that all other wages are falling, it makes sense for a commensurate reduction to be made in those payments originally pegged to them.........

    I do think it should be lowered but keep in mind that we also have a very high inflation rate in comparison to the rest of the EU


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    #99
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #100
    deadhead13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭deadhead13


    Akrasia wrote: »
    If I really said what I think of that comment, I would get banned for life from this forum. An utterly disgraceful comment. There are hundreds of thousands of workers on minimum wage (or within a euro or two of min wage) and these are mostly very hard workers struggling to get by in one of the most expensive countries in the world to live.

    4.5% of the workforce are on mimimum wage. My point being, a reduction would have little effect on the economic situation as a whole and is not justifiable. By the way - I am totally against such a reduction.


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    #101
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,691 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    deadhead13 wrote: »
    4.5 of the workforce are on mimimum wage. My point being, a reduction would have little effect on the economic situation as a whole and is not justifiable. By the way - I am totally against such a reduction.

    I don't think the point in reducing it is to reduce the wages of people who are currently on, or near the minimum wage, but instead to make Ireland more attractive as a country to create jobs in, due to a lower minimum wage.

    With the second highest minimum wage in Europe, we are discouraging job creation. If minimum wage was lowered, in tandem with social welfare payments, than we would

    a) be more attractive as a country for businesses and encourage jobs to be created where the current minimum wage stops them

    b) Make working for the minimum wage more attractive than being on social welfare, so people are encouraged to get one of these new jobs, rather than languish on the dole.


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    #102
    L.R. Weizel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭L.R. Weizel


    I'm still waiting for evidence from Donegalfella that I'm spending less every week.

    This is pretty important because it's being more and more obvious that right wing economists seem to live in a world of their own.


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    #103
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #104
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    deadhead13 wrote: »
    4.5 of the workforce are on mimimum wage. My point being, a reduction would have little effect on the economic situation as a whole and is not justifiable. By the way - I am totally against such a reduction.
    Many jobs pay X above the min wage. When the wage increased a while back, the same jobs increased their "basic pay" by the same amount.

    If min wage is €8 an hour, €10 an hour will be seen as a good wage. If the min wage was €5 an hour, €8 and hour would seem great. Many companies don't offer the min wage, often one euro more, to make it seem good. Thus, no matter what the min wage is, they'll go a euro higher. If the min wage drops, they can also drop the wage for any new recruits.
    astrofool wrote: »
    Make working for the minimum wage more attractive than being on social welfare, so people are encouraged to get one of these new jobs, rather than languish on the dole.
    Agreed, but often there are no new jobs to get.


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    #105
    L.R. Weizel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭L.R. Weizel


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yet the actual prices I've been paying for Groceries have gone up. Petrol was going down, but now it's going up again. Bus fares have gone up. I also notice the price of a lot of toys has gone up.

    It seems to be you live in a world of statistics without any actual connection to the real world itself. Butler do your shopping for you?

    I have no idea why the CSO are flatout lying to us, but I am certainly not paying any less for my shopping.


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    #106
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #107
    L.R. Weizel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭L.R. Weizel


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    If you continue to assess that the cost of living has dropped when it's RISEN, then I can't continue to take this discussion seriously. At the very least, the price of Petrol, Bus Fares, and many groceries have not dropped to match inflation.

    Do you even do your own shopping? Honestly?

    I have no idea how the CSO came to this conclusion, but the average price of my basket has risen over the last few months. I can name some specific products too, for example the Blackcurrant squash I buy in Tescoes has gone up at least 10c. Bus fairs have risen, petrol is on the rise again.


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    #108
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    L.R. Weizel wrote: »
    Yet the actual prices I've been paying for Groceries have gone up. Petrol was going down, but now it's going up again. Bus fares have gone up. I also notice the price of a lot of toys has gone up.

    It seems to be you live in a world of statistics without any actual connection to the real world itself. Butler do your shopping for you?

    I have no idea why the CSO are flatout lying to us, but I am certainly not paying any less for my shopping.

    Did you try changing shop?


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    #109
    L.R. Weizel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭L.R. Weizel


    thebman wrote: »
    Did you try changing shop?

    It's not just Tescos, I've been noticing a price hike in most groceries wherever I buy them. Regardless given Tesco is probably the main place people shop, the CSO should reflect that their prices have risen.


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    #110
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    No, the government should use minimum wage legislation to maintain a living wage for their citizens who have very low negotiating power when the wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of a minority of extremely wealthy capitalists.


    Blaming 'statist inflation' for the fall in the living standards is pretty par for the course from the neo liberal movement. The fact that the capitalists left to their own devices choose to exploit workers and extract every last cent of profit from them (95% of the time) is never the problem, it's always because of 'government interference'

    If there was no minimum wage and no social welfare, in a time of surplus labour (99% of the time) the people with the fewest marketable skills will be given a chouce between working for the bare minimum required to buy food, and starvation or criminal activity. You will find that the majority of people will prefer crime to starvation or slavery, and we end up with a society of violence, repression and fear.

    (but never mind, we can employ 'private police' to protect the wealthy from the poor, and private prisons where the incarcarated are forced to work for their keep (work houses)


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    #111
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    deadhead13 wrote: »
    4.5 of the workforce are on mimimum wage. My point being, a reduction would have little effect on the economic situation as a whole and is not justifiable. By the way - I am totally against such a reduction.

    My apologies, I'm sorry for misinterpreting what you said.


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    #112
    thebigcheese22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭thebigcheese22


    Typical right-wing bull****, take from the poor during bad times. :mad: There's simply no justification for this. Us on the minimum wage can barely live on it as it is, lowering it would put many under the poverty line, and companies would just exploit cheap labour like they do in Poland etc.

    Donegalfella, i wonder do you get paid the minimum wage? I sincerely doubt it.


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    #113
    Frank007
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭Frank007


    Many workers who are actually living on the min wage (not all) work in the catering/hospitality sector, and a portion of these workers will also make tips (some very little and some will make quite a lot) so it is not unreasonable to suggest that in a period of economic contraction that a reduction in the min wage will have a seriously detrimental effect on the lives of the workers on the wage.

    The min wage is also used as a base rate in bargaining between employees and employers in times of wage negotiation. So if the min wage was to be decreased the effect would be downward pressure on wages throughout the economy, thus making the overall economy slightly more compettive relative to other economies.


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    #114
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,691 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    We have the second highest minimum wage in Europe, higher than countries which have a far far more socialist background than us. It was allowed to get high during, effectively, full employment, just like we tried to live on a housing bubble, it has now come back to bite us in the ass.

    I've lived on min. wage, and lived on wage below the minimum before it came in. If people can live on the dole, than they can live on minimum wage.


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    #115
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Fol20 wrote: »
    I do think it should be lowered but keep in mind that we also have a very high inflation rate in comparison to the rest of the EU

    Not anymore, we don't. Our economy has officially been in a deflationary situation for almost 4 months now- and looks set to deflate at the fastest rate in all of the Eurozone- you have to look east to some of our new member states to get a worsening prognosis.


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    #116
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #117
    L.R. Weizel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭L.R. Weizel


    Why do statists always resort to some Dickensian caricature every time the world "capitalist" comes up?

    You didn't answer his question. Also you're in no position to criticise people over using such terms. Some of your comments, like the ones regarding cuba/communism are a joke. You are stereotyping like a lunatic, and even if your stereotypes are correct it doesn't prove that person's argument wrong. You need a critical thinking 101, stat.
    What I personally get paid is irrelevant. I would believe exactly the same things regardless of my income.

    Excuse me but how can you know that?
    Yes, I do, but I live in Donegal and do my shopping in Strabane and Derry.

    Oh pshaw. Everything is cheaper in the north. Please refrain from commenting in this thread if you're going to be paying UK prices anyway.
    The figures recently compiled by the Central Statistics Office show prices falling across the Irish economy. If you want to keep insisting that the CSO is pulling the wool over our eyes to disguise continuing inflation, then the Conspiracy Theories forum might be the place to debate such an opinion.

    But they're not falling. I have no idea why there is such a conflict here, but they have not been falling.


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    #118
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I do it in Letterkenny, though Strabane is as handy. Was in Eurospar on Sunday, it was closing the same day. Super Value gone too.

    IMO, Both shouldn't have been there, the town was over developed.

    Hard to say the girl working there on minimum wage was overpaid though. I think we should lower SW not wages to increase the incentive to work.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #119
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #120
    L.R. Weizel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭L.R. Weizel


    But it has to continue until we force the state out of our lives

    Yes, countries that have a high level of state involvement like Sweden and Norway are just ****holes aren't they.

    Under your system I probably wouldn't survive, given I live off disability currently, something that couldn't exist in it's current form without heavy state interference. People like you never consider such circumstances. You think businesses are going to give me hand outs? Or I should just "MAN UP" and find a job in this ****ty economy?

    Delusional.


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    #121
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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