All-Time Ireland Mercenaries XI

Pigman II

Which Irish players do you feel have shown the most admirable streak of mercenarism in order to attain a full cap for Ireland?

3-4-3

		Dean Kiely	

  Mark "Eire" Lawrenson 	Paul Butler	Andy O'Brien	
			
Mickey Evans	Lee Carlsey	Matt Holland	Andy Townsend

	Clinton Morrison	Bernie Slaven	Tony Cascarino

Craft25

Would have to be cascarino.. seeing as his mother was adopted and he had no 'real' irish blood at all.. 88caps & 19 goals fair play to him tho

I'd play for Equitorial Guinea if i got the chance! lol

stovelid

Folan.

Well, more a lackadaisical streak.

_blank_

Lapira

noodler

All seems pretty harsh on Clinton, Kiely and pretty much the entire midfield. I have always seen them give nothing but 100% in the green shirt. Not something John O'Shea can always say he did.

_blank_

noodler wrote: »

All seems pretty harsh on Clinton,

Get a grip here mate, Clint-on only chose to play for Ireland because he saw the chance of playing in a WC, innit.

He was dithering on Ireland or Jamaica, and when he saw that opportunity, he went for it.

As for Matt Holland, I remember seeing him belting out God Save The Queen before the play off final in 2000 or 2001 (Ipswich).

shane86

noodler wrote: »

All seems pretty harsh on Clinton, Kiely and pretty much the entire midfield. I have always seen them give nothing but 100% in the green shirt. Not something John O'Shea can always say he did.

Indeed, and it is a scandal Kiely wasnt called to replace Shay instead of Paddy fookin Kenny.

For all the talk of them trying to use Ireland as a springboard to get noticed by the top 4, Morrison must be 30 or 31 by now, i.e. out of the age range and not having played for the clubs that require a top 4 manager to buy you, yet the other week in an interview he declared himself avalable if requested. I certainly think he is a viable option for the bench at least.

Anyway, name me one European team that doesnt

a- Have players born in a country they sent migrants to playing for them (Germany- Turkey, Germany- Croatia etc. Even England has Hargreaves, and IIRC he is actually of Welsh parentage, but being born abroad to a British parent entitles you to play for any of the home nations. Maik Taylor is of English, not nordie stock)

b- Have players who migrated to the country as kids (France)

c- The very worst, drafting players who played in national leagus, primarily Brazillians (Poland, Turkey, Bulgaria, Portugal, Spain, and Belgium as we found out to our cost in 1997. And didnt Holland try to claim Kalou at one point?). I wish Platini and Blatter would chase this one up fast rather than trying their best to make club football more boring.

Our selection policies are probably the most legitimate of anyone in Europe.


Out of curiousity what were the numbers for the most foreign born team we ever fielded? (excluding O`Leary, McGrath and anyone else born abroad who grew up in Ireland).

noodler

You get a grip there...mate. Leave your 15 year old Brit hating mentality at the door please.

Looking at their contributions to the Irish national team-I find little that can be questioned. A mercenary generally does **** all.

_blank_

noodler wrote: »

Leave your 15 year old Brit hating mentality at the door please.

What?

I certainly don't hate Britain, or the people who live there.



wtf did that even come from?

mad.

noodler wrote: »

A mercenary generally does **** all.

What?

Pigman II

shane86 wrote: »

Out of curiousity what were the numbers for the most foreign born team we ever fielded? (excluding O`Leary, McGrath and anyone else born abroad who grew up in Ireland).

It's not about where you grew up or even where you were born. Guys like Gary Breen and Terry Phelan were born in England, grew up in England yet had strong Irish identities all the while and declared Ireland as their country of preference from a young age (not just when it became a good career move).

_blank_

Pigman II wrote: »

It's not about where you grew up or even where you were born. Guys like Gary Breen and Terry Phelan were born in England, grew up in England yet had strong Irish identities all the while and declared Ireland as their country of preference from a young age (not just when it became a good career move).

And no problem with the likes of that, none at all.

But when shams like Clinton show up, it makes a fool of every kid who dreamed of representing his national team.

noodler

Des wrote: »

What?

I certainly don't hate Britain, or the people who live there.



wtf did that even come from?

mad.



What?

Well why the hell do you have issue with him singing a national anthem at a cup final? (I have to take your word for it). Matt Holland was always a great pro on the pitch for Ireland and thats without mentioning his wonder goals collection.

Ahem, a Mercenary in football terms, is generally a player who plays for some reason other than to give his all. I can't fault most of the players in that lineup, Morrison gave his all when he played limited as he was as did Holland, Townsend, Kiely, etc.

Morrison was a decent player in an Ireland shirt? He got it on merit, very few Irish forwards have scored goals in England as consistently as him.

stovelid

noodler wrote: »

Well why the hell do you have issue with him singing a national anthem at a cup final? (I have to take your word for it). Matt Holland was always a great pro on the pitch for Ireland and thats without mentioning his wonder goals collection.
.

For people (like me) who don't get into a national fervour about English or Irish international football, this is fine.

But it is a bit weird when you get more-Irish-than-Irish fans not caring about a player who sings another anthem. The anthem of a team he would no doubt have turned out for instead if picked.

Irish fans are weird sometimes. They are the most nationalist fans going, but have an ability to completely suspend loyalty and judgement if it means success on the field.

_blank_

noodler wrote: »

Well why the hell do you have issue with him singing a national anthem at a cup final? (I have to take your word for it). Matt Holland was always a great pro on the pitch for Ireland and thats without mentioning his wonder goals collection.

I would take issue with an "Irish" man belting out any other national anthem, not just GSTQ, it just so happens that this is the one he was singing.

I can how you thought I was anti-brit there, so apologies, but I assure you, I am certainly not a Xenophobe in any shape or form.

noodler wrote: »

Ahem, a Mercenary in football terms, is generally a player who plays for some reason other than to give his all. I can't fault most of the players in that lineup, Morrison gave his all when he played limited as he was as did Holland, Townsend, Kiely, etc.

Your definition and my definition of mercenary in football differ, so.

In my mind a mercenary may play to his full, but it isn't for the team, it's for himself, to make himself more attractive.

Clinton for example, was trying to make himself worth more in the Transfer market, by playing in a WC. He would have played for Jamaica if Ireland hadn't have qualified, and they did.

No doubts about it.

noodler wrote: »

Morrison was a decent player in an Ireland shirt? He got it on merit, very few Irish forwards have scored goals in England as consistently as him.

I'm not saying these people aren't decent players, or didn;t play well, but they ARE mercenaries.

shane86

Des wrote: »

.

In my mind a mercenary may play to his full, but it isn't for the team, it's for himself, to make himself more attractive.

Clinton for example, was trying to make himself worth more in the Transfer market, by playing in a WC. He would have played for Jamaica if Ireland hadn't have qualified, and they did.

.

So why now, when he is past it in terms of getting a top 4 club or even top 8 to sign him, does he still want to play for us? Im sure he is wealthy enough by now and could happily see out his career at Coventry. And even at that, an EPL club is more likely to sign him having seen him bang them in in the CShip week in week out than because he scored one goal per game against Georgia or Montenegro.

ROCKMAN

shane86 wrote: »

Indeed, and it is a scandal Kiely wasnt called to replace Shay instead of Paddy fookin Kenny.

For all the talk of them trying to use Ireland as a springboard to get noticed by the top 4, Morrison must be 30 or 31 by now, i.e. out of the age range and not having played for the clubs that require a top 4 manager to buy you, yet the other week in an interview he declared himself avalable if requested. I certainly think he is a viable option for the bench at least.

Anyway, name me one European team that doesnt

a- Have players born in a country they sent migrants to playing for them (Germany- Turkey, Germany- Croatia etc. Even England has Hargreaves, and IIRC he is actually of Welsh parentage, but being born abroad to a British parent entitles you to play for any of the home nations. Maik Taylor is of English, not nordie stock)

b- Have players who migrated to the country as kids (France)

c- The very worst, drafting players who played in national leagus, primarily Brazillians (Poland, Turkey, Bulgaria, Portugal, Spain, and Belgium as we found out to our cost in 1997. And didnt Holland try to claim Kalou at one point?). I wish Platini and Blatter would chase this one up fast rather than trying their best to make club football more boring.

Our selection policies are probably the most legitimate of anyone in Europe.


Out of curiousity what were the numbers for the most foreign born team we ever fielded? (excluding O`Leary, McGrath and anyone else born abroad who grew up in Ireland).

ITALY
(well i cannot think off any so called mercanaries/foreigners right now but I'm sure I'll be corrected very quicky if I'm wrong )

shane86

ROCKMAN wrote: »

ITALY
(well i cannot think off any so called mercanaries/foreigners right now but I'm sure I'll be corrected very quicky if I'm wrong )

They are currently trying to rush through a passport for some Brazillian or Argie, cant recall which, or even who it is, it was mentioned on last nights RTE coverage.

Bubs101

ROCKMAN wrote: »

ITALY
(well i cannot think off any so called mercanaries/foreigners right now but I'm sure I'll be corrected very quicky if I'm wrong )

Camoranesi is Argentinian through and through who for some reason they weren't interested in but they are the closest to a good example. Russia or Sweden might be a good shout, Amauri is Brazilian as well but he's not an integral member of the team

monkey9

I always get the impression with Lawrenson that he regrets choosing to play for Ireland. I think he made his debut while still at Preston. He was good enough to play for England and probably realises that now!!
If he had waited he probably would have got a call up after his move to Liverpool!!

shane86

Bubs101 wrote: »

Camoranesi is Argentinian through and through who for some reason they weren't interested in but they are the closest to a good example. Russia or Sweden might be a good shout, Amauri is Brazilian as well but he's not an integral member of the team

Id imagine Camoranesi is a granny ruler, alot of Italians in Argentina. But the other lad is not of Italian descent, whoever it is Im referring to.

So basically, the list of countries using kids of their own migrants, foreigners who came as kids or Brazillians/others is

Us
England
Scotland
Wales
N Ireland
Portugal
Spain
France
Belgium
Germany
Holland (uses players from Carribean colonies)
Think Austria has a Turkish born player, not sure
Swiss possibly do as well, Hakan Suker I think
Italy (also have that Manchester born player)
Poland
Croatia
Bulgaria
Id imagine the ex Soviet countries have a few born in other parts of the USSR at the time.

Fair enough, it isnt everyone, but it is a pretty large amount.

noodler

Des, my point still stands that Clinton Morrison played his heart out for the Irish team when he played for them. This is not mercenary behavior in my books.

Again I have to point out the merit argument, who else was there scoring consistently in the Championship at the time? (since we all know there was no Prem player other than Keane knocking them in at the time....or now)-thats more in answer to your comment about it being some kind of injustice that he was playing for Ireland.

anonymous_joe

shane86 wrote: »

Id imagine Camoranesi is a granny ruler, alot of Italians in Argentina. But the other lad is not of Italian descent, whoever it is Im referring to.

So basically, the list of countries using kids of their own migrants, foreigners who came as kids or Brazillians/others is

Us
England
Scotland
Wales
N Ireland
Portugal
Spain
France
Belgium
Germany
Holland (uses players from Carribean colonies)
Think Austria has a Turkish born player, not sure
Swiss possibly do as well, Hakan Suker I think
Italy (also have that Manchester born player)
Poland
Croatia
Bulgaria
Id imagine the ex Soviet countries have a few born in other parts of the USSR at the time.

Fair enough, it isnt everyone, but it is a pretty large amount.

You will struggle to find anyone who doesn't, except for some of the smaller and less important nations, in all honesty.

Oh and regarding Scandies, teh best player from Scandinavia is Zlatan Ibrahimovic. Very old Swedish name. :P

Anyway, while he's Bosnia's greatest ever player, one of their current stars is Vedad Ibisevic who grew up in America. (Though he was born in Bosnia/Yugoslavia iirc) So there's a huge merry-go-round at international level.

deisedevil

noodler wrote: »

Des, my point still stands that Clinton Morrison played his heart out for the Irish team when he played for them. This is not mercenary behaviour in my books.

Again I have to point out the merit argument, who else was there scoring consistently in the Championship at the time? (since we all know there was no Prem player other than Keane knocking them in at the time....or now).

I have to agree that I think Clinton Morrison did give his all when he played for Ireland but he was def playing for us because we were the best option available apart from playing for his own country. Your definition of mercenary is a little off I think, a mercenary can still put in a huge effort, calling Clinton a mercenary doesn't call into question how much of an effort he gave for Ireland.

noodler

I respectfully disagree. When people say that people like Deco are Ballack went to Chelsea becasue they are Mercenaries-there is an distinct understanding that they are just going through the motions and earning their pay packets.

This was not the case with the above players.

Anyway Des, you have yet to answer why it was such a sham that Morrison played for Ireland? Who was scoring more goals at the time in England?

deisedevil

noodler wrote: »

I respectfully disagree. When people say that people like Deco are Ballack went to Chelsea becasue they are Mercenaries-there is an distinct understanding that they are just going through the motions and earning their pay packets.

This was not the case with the above players.

Anyway Des, you have yet to answer why it was such a sham that Morrison played for Ireland? Who was scoring more goals at the time in England?

Ok so your saying Mercanary: won't give 100% EVER

I'm saying that a mercanary can give 100% or chose not to give 100% but just by calling him a mercanary doesn't mean he is someone who NEVER gave 100%

Basically: "becasue they are Mercenaries-there is an distinct understanding that they are just going through the motions and earning their pay packets." is not the case.

Benedict XVI

Surley Alan Kernaghan is the greatest mercenary of all time

A man of Northern Irish extraction playing for the Republic.

McAteer is the same, a grandparent born on the island of Ireland before 1922 is sufficient to play for either ROI or NI

noodler

deisedevil wrote: »

Ok so your saying Mercanary: won't give 100% EVER

I'm saying that a mercanary can give 100% or chose not to give 100% but just by calling him a mercanary doesn't mean he is someone who NEVER gave 100%

Basically: "becasue they are Mercenaries-there is an distinct understanding that they are just going through the motions and earning their pay packets." is not the case.

The label of Mercenary is only ever used in a football sense when theplayer in question is believed not to be pulling his weight. Like it or not it is a different in meaning to the officical Mercenary word, its simply the way the football meaning has evolved over time.

Pigman II

McAteer is the same, a grandparent born on the island of Ireland before 1922 is sufficient to play for either ROI or NI

Forgot McAteer. He's certainly a good nomination.

deisedevil

noodler wrote: »

The label of Mercenary is only ever used in a football sense when theplayer in question is believed not to be pulling his weight. Like it or not it is a different in meaning to the officical Mercenary word, its simply the way the football meaning has evolved over time.

Ok fair enough. Thread titile should be changed so. There are a lot of players in the "All-Time Ireland Mercenaries XI" that are by your definition clearly not mercenaries.

shane86

Pigman II wrote: »

It's not about where you grew up or even where you were born. Guys like Gary Breen and Terry Phelan were born in England, grew up in England yet had strong Irish identities all the while and declared Ireland as their country of preference from a young age (not just when it became a good career move).

How is everyone so certain Morrison barely had a clue about our team until he was told he was eligible?


I read somewhere S Ireland was eligble for us, England and Italy! Presumably he had a grandmother hailing from each one.

*gets coat*

stovelid

Benedict XVI wrote: »

A man of Northern Irish extraction playing for the Republic.

He may have got the two countries mixed up? Both of them have Ireland in the title. Pretty confusing.

deisedevil

stovelid wrote: »

He may have got the two countries mixed up? Both of them have Ireland in the title. Pretty confusing.

Very possible seeing as it is Macca, never seemed to be the brightest star in the sky did he?

_blank_

noodler wrote: »

The label of Mercenary is only ever used in a football sense when theplayer in question is believed not to be pulling his weight.

By you.

I believe every player who joined Chelsea in the post-Abramovic era to be a mercenary because they only went there for a pay day, no love for the club, nothing. Some of them gave it their all, some didn't, but that is not in question here.

A mercenary soldier is someone who goes to war for the paycheque. Now, they may kill their "enemy" or they may not, but they still get paid.

It's the exact same as the traditional definition of the word.

When I call someone a mercenary, in football, I mean a player who has gone to a club simply for the money.

---

In relation to Clint-on being a sham for Ireland. The simple fact is that he should never have been given the chance to do so. Whoever was on the bench while he started probably deserved a place far more.

I'm unsure as to David Connolly's status.

And people who answer "but Connolly (or whoever) was shíte, Clinton was banging 'em in" can fúck off, it's not about that, not about that at all.

eagle eye

Des wrote: »

By you.

I believe every player who joined Chelsea in the post-Abramovic era to be a mercenary because they only went there for a pay day, no love for the club, nothing. Some of them gave it their all, some didn't, but that is not in question here.

A mercenary soldier is someone who goes to war for the paycheque. Now, they may kill their "enemy" or they may not, but they still get paid.

It's the exact same as the traditional definition of the word.

When I call someone a mercenary, in football, I mean a player who has gone to a club simply for the money.

---

In relation to Clint-on being a sham for Ireland. The simple fact is that he should never have been given the chance to do so. Whoever was on the bench while he started probably deserved a place far more.

I'm unsure as to David Connolly's status.

And people who answer "but Connolly (or whoever) was shíte, Clinton was banging 'em in" can fúck off, it's not about that, not about that at all.

I dunno if you could say that Damien Duff went there just for the money Des. He wanted to win things as well. It wasn't going to happen at Blackburn. Same with a few others that went there imo like Joe Cole and Wayne Bridge. They were all with lesser clubs in England and the move was to a better club with title aspirations.

Guy:Incognito

Des wrote: »

it makes a fool of every kid who dreamed of representing his national team.

If they were'nt any better than Clinton Morrison then thats all they ever would have been anyway, dreams.


If I was good enough I'd have little issue invoking my German passport to get a realistic shot at a world cup medal.

Bounty Hunter

Was Amurai (sp?) the brazillian CF who recently declared for italy?

anonymous_joe

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Was Amurai (sp?) the brazillian CF who recently declared for italy?

Amauri.

Bubs101

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Was Amurai (sp?) the brazillian CF who recently declared for italy?

Yeah but it wasn't too recent, pretty sure he got a call up last year.

pablomakaveli

Kieron Westwood who was called up by Trap last year. The guy actually said he does'nt feel irish.:eek:

shane86

Des wrote: »

When I call someone a mercenary, in football, I mean a player who has gone to a club simply for the money.

So any Shels player who grew up supporting another team is a mercenary?

All of them? Lets be honest, EVERY player joins a club for the money unless they were a boyhood fan.

anonymous_joe

shane86 wrote: »

So any Shels player who grew up supporting another team is a mercenary?

All of them? Lets be honest, EVERY player joins a club for the money unless they were a boyhood fan.

Everyone joins a club for money because it's a job, not a hobby.

_blank_

shane86 wrote: »

So any Shels player who grew up supporting another team is a mercenary?

All of them? Lets be honest, EVERY player joins a club for the money unless they were a boyhood fan.

You think players joined Shelbourne for money.

*ahem*

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


HHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

mercuroman

I think Harchester United's Danny Rawsthorne was the biggest - although he did choose a call up to the senior Irish squad over a call up to the England U-21's!

will1977

Honourable mention must go to Vinny Jones. Even though he never quite managed to get a cap for us. Did his best though before finally giving up and declaring for Wales;)

shane86

Des wrote: »

You think players joined Shelbourne for money.

*ahem*

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


HHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

All of them would have rather joined a higher paying club but yes, professional footballers in the majority of cases are playing for money. Yes, you have the odd case where a player is lucky enough to land themselves their boyhood club on a huge wage, and of course a player can quickly develop an affinity to his club upon arrival, but the money brought him initially. Torres may genuinely want to win cups for the fans of Liverpool having been there for x months, but he originally arrived for the money, no bones about it.

cournioni

noodler wrote: »

Not something John O'Shea can always say he did.

I'm not the biggest fan of O'Shea but he's been playing well alongside Dunne, and but for O'Shea last night Dunne would have been completely lost.

noodler

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

I'm not the biggest fan of O'Shea but he's been playing well alongside Dunne, and but for O'Shea last night Dunne would have been completely lost.

I wouldn't go THAT far with regards last night but I have mentioned my surprise and praise for the way O-Shea has performed in the opening 3 games of THIS campaign. The Slovakia equalizer will take some erasing from my mind though.

kryogen

shane86 wrote: »

Torres may genuinely want to win cups for the fans of Liverpool having been there for x months, but he originally arrived for the money, no bones about it.

as much as it pains me to say it, I believe Torres actually took a pay cut to join Liverpool man

Most footballers are mercenary, or have mercenary tendancies, Viera, Gerrard, Henry, all members of the more money or i quit brigade but not generally thought of as mercenary

then you have the Robinho model who is always thought of as a mercenary and rightly so!

Clinton should never have been allowed play for Ireland when we were clearly not his first choice and he only played for us to play in a world cup, can we really hold that against him personally? no, its every players dream to play in a world cup, but we should not have allowed him to use the team for that when we had irish guys who actually had a love of the country wanting to play

Regardless of how many goals he was scoring, its just not the issue, some of you seem to be missing that

FatherTed

Bubs101 wrote: »

Yeah but it wasn't too recent, pretty sure he got a call up last year.

Amauri has never played for Brazil at any level and is acquiring his italian passport. Dunga called him up for the friendly against Italy but then got injured.

Plus the Italians have Rossi from New Jersey.

Also, Nevin Subotic moved to the US as a kid, played underage for the US up to U-20 but recently has declared for Serbia.

Interesting facts on brothers:
Christian Vieri played for Italy, while Massimiliano Vieri played for Austrailia
Julian De Guzman plays for Canana, Jonathan for Holland
John Hollins played for England, Dave for Wales
Manfred Kizito plays for Rwanda, Nestory for Uganda
Steve Mandanda played for France A against his brother Parfait for Congo