How to Avoid IMRO charges

Keith186

talisker wrote: »

and boy do they (imro) like to visit, and its not too far from the brown shirt brigade.

I just came across this thread and I'm shocked by the amount IMRO charges, it's a disgrace.

I know a guy who worked in IMRO (10-15 years ago) and I was asking him about what it involved etc. He told me he U2 got the biggest chunk of the money which I have to take issue with. Bono the cnut ripping you off here, pays a tiny amount of tax if any in comparison to what he earns and then campaigns to the Government to give away your money to Africa, he can go feck himself.

I had an idea that you could dodge the payment by making your (only certain) business a members club and therefore private but according to the IMRO site (copyright law) anything outside the domestic scene is public. This is where it could potentially be challenged.

If you run a pub/club/casino you could make it members only and benefit from the savings it the definition on a public area was challenged. You'd also have any trouble makers name (& photo if you insisted as part of membership) and could report the person to Gardai if they were to be involved in any incidents.

edanto

The reality for us is that IMRO are looking for €20k a year just for background music

That's mad! What kind of size place are we talking about? Is it something like a restaurant for 400 people, or a café for 10? Just for a sense of scale.

I had a quick look at their accounts, in 2000, they cleared €16m, but there's no sense of how that was distributed.

Gordon

So the only way to get around this is to get your computer to generate tones, ambience, pads, oscillations in real time to mimick soundscapes/non-musical audio that is produced on the fly, without recorded samples? Sounds like a gap in the market for the musical software market to me! Gives me an idea for some music creativity actually, too!

Hmm, maybe technically you could record this if you record in MIDI, then it wouldn't be a sound recording but a recording of data that then gets fed to the sound oscillator of choice that playsback in real time. Maybe that's pushing it.

suntzu

Imro are not in a position to insist that charges are paid when certain types of music are played especially non copyright music however this is a very complex area and many people are not aware of their rights not to pay IMRO. There is a company which advises people about their music use and can provide copyright free solutions.Send me a reply and I can post some more detail should you so require

suntzu

celron

suntzu

could you post the details so I could look into this?

I'm sick of their charges also.
Thanks

keefg

Gordon wrote: »

Hmm, maybe technically you could record this if you record in MIDI, then it wouldn't be a sound recording but a recording of data that then gets fed to the sound oscillator of choice that playsback in real time. Maybe that's pushing it.

You need to get out more....my head hurts just reading that

Pat Mustard

suntzu wrote: »

Imro are not in a position to insist that charges are paid when certain types of music are played especially non copyright music however this is a very complex area

Whether or not it is a complex area, surely there is a lot of classical music that is available where the copyright ran out many years ago. It shouldn't be very hard to locate music that fits that description, especially when you are talking about music that was composed and written down before the twentieth century.

keefg

The Mustard wrote: »

Whether or not it is a complex area, surely there is a lot of classical music that is available where the copyright ran out many years ago. It shouldn't be very hard to locate music that fits that description, especially when you are talking about music that was composed and written down before the twentieth century.

I read something somewhere about using classical music and it's available in the public domain (you don't have to pay the writer/composer any dosh) but unless you either perform it yourself or commission an orchestra they you have to pay the recording rights to whoever recorded the composition.

Something like that anyway

bookerboy

Why would Bono get IMRO money when U2 chose PRS to collect their Royalties???

Bicky

edanto wrote: »

That's mad! What kind of size place are we talking about? Is it something like a restaurant for 400 people, or a café for 10? Just for a sense of scale.

Can anyone answer this one please?
Is it based on the size of the premises, or the turnover etc?
Thanks

mcaul

Bicky wrote: »

Can anyone answer this one please?
Is it based on the size of the premises, or the turnover etc?
Thanks

depends on type of premises, use, size & staff numbers.

For a 1500 sq ft retail store the cost is about €280 per year whereas for a similar sized restaurant it is probably higher.

http://www.imro.ie/music_users/licence_estimator.shtml#

here2surf

I remember managing a retail premises and an employee/agent of IMRO used to visit demanding cheques. At first he was all coy and ingratatiating, going to great lenghts to explain that he had the hard job and that all his bosses "lived in mansions, drove 7 series and were owners of other companies...."
On his second visit the coyness dissapeared and the bully kicked in. A big fellow that used his bulk to talk at you into your face and back you into a corner.
:mad:

linkedin09

wonkyfish wrote: »

Hi All

Does anyone know exactly how businesses can avoid paying IMRO charges? We have been paying these charges for years and though we feel they are excessive we understand the rights of the artists to be paid for their work. In the current climate all these non essential costs have to be cut out so we made the decision to go completely royalty free with all the music in our business. We bought royalty free retail background music, the quality is not great but we felt the trade off was worth it. Once all our locations had the new music installed we contacted IMRO to let them know that we were now 100% royalty free and would no longer be paying any invoices.

IMRO have come back to tell us that apparently royalty free music makes no difference and we still have to pay their fees in order to have any music playing. Does anyone know how they can get away with this? Is there a such thing as 'performance royalty free' music?

The reality for us is that IMRO are looking for €20k a year just for background music and the way things are at the moment if we have to pay it it will mean putting somone out of a job. We don't want to play music illegally, just find music that IMRO can't charge us for.

Any help is appreciated!

Thanks,
J

Hi J,
I am in the same position and was wondering how you got on with this. I am about to purchase some royalty free music for a retail premises and dont want to go ahead with it if i am wasting my time with regards to imro. Thanks in advance. Robert.

stepbar

I've noticed recently that a well known convience store chain in Dublin City Centre has started to play an internet radio station as background music in their stores. Is this how to get around IMRO fees?

I'm well aware of IMRO and their operations. The amount of money swirling around their accounts is sick....

FusionNet

Think internet radio is subject to imro or ppi as well. The only way around it is to play royalty free music. There are companies I know that specialise in this. Lifes a bee eh?!!

abrr1000

Another way of getting around this is to....not pay them. I don't believe in that organisation - if I play a french CD how do they know who to send the royalties to?

was.deevey

Originally Posted by Gordon

Hmm, maybe technically you could record this if you record in MIDI, then it wouldn't be a sound recording but a recording of data that then gets fed to the sound oscillator of choice that playsback in real time. Maybe that's pushing it.

you might be onto something there .. while alot (most) midi music is simply CR@P .. there are some guys that specialize in quality midi tracks and most DVD players will even play midi off CD.

Now Technically you are not playing pre-recorded music .. you are performing it if played back with a piece of music software (reason/cubase etc) .. via saved files.

Thus its a live performance, if you have bought a cover license arrangement with a composer allowing you to play a version of his song to perform your ass should be covered on that.

Of course classical music as mentioned should be copyright free anyhow.

Costs ..

1. buying the rights to the midi files from composer
2. buying software capable of playing said files (Opensource sequencer perhaps)
3. buying computer capable of playing said files (Netbook .. 200ish) ..

You might get away with even just running midi files from a DVD player as the music is not just playing its "being processed" ..

Love to see IMRO's reaction to this as an arguement.

And IMRO will try charging even if someone in an office happens to throw on a youtube music video with their speakers plugged in.. once its audible to others its classed as a public performance regardless on the volume... i've seen this happen before in a small insurance brokerage where a member of backoffice staff turner her radio on her lunchbreak! and the "inspector" walked in.

Frankie Teardrop

We are currently setting up an adult dating and contact site (not porn) and would like to allow members to upload their favourite music, naturally we want to avoid doing this illegally so will allow links to sites like YouTube, Soundcoud etc.

Apparently this is a way around needing a licence, but I'm no expert.

Does anyone else have experience of what is allowed in this area?


Also, do do we need a licence to play clips from adult movies that use music?

GoneShootin

Time passes and I may be getting closer to an answer. There is a slight chance that PPL-FREE (PPL being the UK version of IMRO) music may escape the IMRO royalty fees. When a song is PPL-FREE, it has either been made by indepedant artists, or the royaltees have already been paid to the original artist/composer by a UK production company.

If the UK production company has already paid the royaltees, then surely I don't need to pay IMRO to pay the artists again?

For the indepedant artists I'm confident that I could escape the IMRO clause, but lets be honest, fitness classes are popular in a large part due to the music played, so the remixed/covered chart music where royaltess are pre-paid are the way to go - assuming I can clarify the "country of royalty paid" issue.

Already we have a huge 4k bill IMRO for our 3 locations. We can't continue both IMRO payments and PPI payments. Something has to give...

GoneShootin

By the way just stumbled across this - might be handy for someone as background music to escape any and all fees:

http://www.royaltyfreemusicradio.com/

No use for fitness classes though, as you cant control the playlist.

Ciaran Clark

I got a visit from the PPI a couple of weeks ago and just this morning got a bill for 120 euro from them.:eek:
Yeah I know its a tiny amount compared to the crazy amounts I've read on here but times are bad and with all these new charges lately this 120 could break the camels back.
I asked the PPI lady a few weeks ago, would I be charged if I listened through an earpiece and she said no.I told her the radio would be going and we'll be listening through earpieces in future and yet I still get this bill sent out to me.
I just ignore the bill, do I?
If they come around to check for music, they can't fine me cos there won't be any playing.
And we only listened to Newstalk and Joe Duffy anyway!:mad:

GoneShootin

FYI, I've since discovered that:

IMRO in Ireland = PRS in the UK
PPI in Ireland = PPL in the UK

DublinWriter

Two possible solutions:

1. A number of years ago a friend of a friend was involved in a start-up in Ireland who were developing 'a box' to produce computer real-time generated ambient background music. The whole premise of the product was for companies to use it and not have to pay IMRO. I don't know what became of the company and/or product, I suspect it was similar in concept to a software music product called 'Koan'. Google around and you might find similar technologies.

2. Don't play music in the first place. One of the reasons I love going into Weatherspoon's pubs in the UK is the lack of background music. Why do shops, pubs and restaurants think that background music is essential in the first place? There's even an activists group in the UK set up to counter the increasing levels of noise-pollution in businesses.

GoneShootin

DublinWriter wrote: »

2. Don't play music in the first place. One of the reasons I love going into Weatherspoon's pubs in the UK is the lack of background music. Why do shops, pubs and restaurants think that background music is essential in the first place? There's even an activists group in the UK set up to counter the increasing levels of noise-pollution in businesses.

That argument doesn't wash. Background music makes the shopping experience much more enjoyable and comfortable. However I'm more concerned with my industry which is fitness. It is crucial that we have decent music in place hitting a BPM between 120 and 140 for enhance the workout experience of customers.

brenners7

Any chance you have any information on how to avoid IMRO charges?

Gloomtastic!

brenners7 wrote: »

Any chance you have any information on how to avoid IMRO charges?

Have you read any of this thread?

G Power

can someone please tell me how some IMRO guy/gal can walk into a place of business and tell that the ambient/chillout/world music that's playing is copyrighted?? surely if you're not playing recognisable songs direct or through radio stations, tv shows etc and instead you play real nice relaxing world music then IMRO have no way of knowing if it's copyrighted or not??

micosoft

GoneShootin wrote: »

That argument doesn't wash. Background music makes the shopping experience much more enjoyable and comfortable. However I'm more concerned with my industry which is fitness. It is crucial that we have decent music in place hitting a BPM between 120 and 140 for enhance the workout experience of customers.

Fascinating. You accept that music is a very very necessary part to making their sales experience work (i.e. You make money because you play music) but want to avoid paying the people who create it, perform it or record it any money....whether you like it or not if you use someone else's work, even if it's U2 you need to pay up. Music makes a real contribution to your business - you should pay the people who make that possible.

As for 20k of the OP? Usual boardsie exaggeration - unless you are one of the largest retail chains in Ireland (and I mean Tesco or Dunnes) or you have substantial live events (which you say you don't do) you are paying relatively small money for the average size store and not "losing a member of staff".

I know it's a struggle for some but IMRO have what's called a website. The rates cards are here: http://bit.ly/13yzH8J and are simple to follow and fairly reasonable. In fact they seem to bend over backwards to take every case in hand. And they have a phone number/e-mail on the page.

I have no connection with IMRO or the sector but am always shocked at the energy people put into getting out of paying for something they actually do owe for and don't invest this time in figuring out how to improve their business.

cormac1982

Old thread but still current... Was happily paying IMRO for 2 stores for a number of years but decided not to pay PPI because their rep that called into me was arrogant and aggressive (whereas IMRO were quite nice and accommodating really). Now IMRO and PPI have come together to form a 'dual music licence' so I've now stopped paying both (which amounted to just over €600) and instead I buy as licence from a company called Jamendo who provide music from independent musicians and costs me €150 a year for 2 stores. You can use their radio stations or download their whole library sorted into genres. Lots of awful and weird stuff but once you spend a bit of time sorting through it it's fine. I use jazz and latino background music and have to say I'm glad to be free from the repetitive pop on the radio.

Quadsey

Is ambient noise considered to be "music", websites offering ambient noise generators are widely available. would these avoid charges?
Also there was no definitive answer in this thread about the old classical music whos copyright will have expired, does this work in avoidance?