Taxi Company 20% Off

maggy_thatcher

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

One way I could see to do this would put in the layer of management would be by establishing between four and seven clearly identifiable taxi firms. Each firm would set its own prices (which would bind the entire firm). There would be a regular tier of taxi and a 'premium' tier.

What would you do?

I agree with most of this -- what I think they should do is put up for auction say 5 contracts with the city to be a taxi company. You are not allowed to be a taxi driver if you don't work in one of these companies. Then these companies can hire/fire/etc. the same way as normal businesses do, and pay their employees through standard PAYE approaches (i.e. at least minimum wage, potentially commission based depending on how the company decides to operate). The taxi vehicles themselves must be owned by the taxi company, not to be used as private vehicles, so that they can be used through shift-rotation all night long / can be guaranteed to be of a certain quality.

This way in "good" times, the taxi company hires the drivers and everything works well, in "bad" times, the taxi company makes the drivers redundant - they have to pay the redundancy payments as normal, the drivers are then eligible for all the standard social welfare benefits?

The only issue is what to do with the existing drivers -- they could group together and form these 5 firms, or, alternatively, as they then had a valid reason for being out of a job, would have a valid escape clause for those "trying to get out but are stuck in a corner", and (should) become eligible for social welfare while they looked for a different line of work.

Just my €0.02

Taxipete29

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is nothing wrong or illegal about cosying. Cosying was the norm in Dublin for many years.

If the plates became valuable again (as they would if there were a cap) then the cost of the car becomes less significant compared to the cost of the plate. The part time drivers will either sell the plate to someone with capital, or they will get a separate car for it themselves.

Personally, I think that the industry needs professional management. Regulation, at least as we have it, is not the same as management.

One way I could see to do this would put in the layer of management would be by establishing between four and seven clearly identifiable taxi firms. Each firm would set its own prices (which would bind the entire firm). There would be a regular tier of taxi and a 'premium' tier.

The job of the regulator would be to press the firms to increase the quality and value of what is offered and to coordinate where appropriate (for example, to make sure there weren't 500 taxis standing in the city centre at the same time as flights were landing unmet at the airport). The job of the firms would be to implement the nuts and bolts of improving the standard.

I haven't done the full analysis, but that's what I see needs to be done to have a really excellent taxi service at a decent price.

What would you do?

I have stated numerous times on other threads. Im not repeating it, go and find it.

1, I didnt say cosying was illegal, I said many immigrants are doing it illegally which is to say they are not insured and do not have the proper licence to even drive a taxi.

Plates were worth a small fortune in the past as there was a fortune to be made in the game when there was only 2000 plates around. This will never again happen and plates, if a driver is lucky will only ever be worth €65000

Your still banging on about mananging supply. How do I earn a living if im only allowed when and where a taxi firm tell me to?????
So you want to disband all the small firms that provide services to the people of those communities??
Where the old people of the area feel safe getting in their cars as they know most of the drivers????
You want to create an operator monopoly of a few large firms and give drivers little choice in how they work??????
So they regulator no longer sets the price?????? Even CIE cant set there own prices, what makes you think taxis will be allowed.

Your post shows how little you know about taxis in Ireland

Taxipete29

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I agree with most of this -- what I think they should do is put up for auction say 5 contracts with the city to be a taxi company. You are not allowed to be a taxi driver if you don't work in one of these companies. Then these companies can hire/fire/etc. the same way as normal businesses do, and pay their employees through standard PAYE approaches (i.e. at least minimum wage, potentially commission based depending on how the company decides to operate). The taxi vehicles themselves must be owned by the taxi company, not to be used as private vehicles, so that they can be used through shift-rotation all night long / can be guaranteed to be of a certain quality.

This way in "good" times, the taxi company hires the drivers and everything works well, in "bad" times, the taxi company makes the drivers redundant - they have to pay the redundancy payments as normal, the drivers are then eligible for all the standard social welfare benefits?

The only issue is what to do with the existing drivers -- they could group together and form these 5 firms, or, alternatively, as they then had a valid reason for being out of a job, would have a valid escape clause for those "trying to get out but are stuck in a corner", and (should) become eligible for social welfare while they looked for a different line of work.

Just my €0.02

This would work as drivers are no longer the owner/operators. Therefore we would become employees with rights. I like this idea, but I fear it would be too big a change for the industry to get their head around

Terrontress

HydeRoad wrote: »

With RESPECT to you, Terrontress, what the hell do you know about the taxi industry??? I am working for HALF the MINIMUM WAGE, have seen my earnings drop to a QUARTER of what they were four years ago when I entered the industry, and stand to lose my home and everything I have worked hard for for the last ten years.

As soon as I go out to work now, I spend hours just earning back the cost of the bloody car I am trying to run, before I ever pay a sniff of a mortgage payment or any of the other dozen bills I need to SURVIVE, never mind have a life. I borrowed THOUSANDS four years ago to get into an industry I hoped would at least pay me a reasonable mortgage, nothing else. I didn't get it for free, I hung myself out the window for it, in the good faith that it would keep me for the rest of my life. I never looked for a fancy lifestyle. Just a small, very basic home. I still owe those thousands, and now have no hope of repaying them.

I'd sell my soul to have what you have right now, Terrontress. So would thousands of others in these present circumstances. To answer your statement, yes, I am AWARE of the hours other people have to work. Yes, I am AWARE that we are in straitened times. Yes, I am AWARE that people like you have to give up their lunchbreaks. You at least have a full day's work. Taxi drivers don't, no matter how many hours they sit on the ranks. Sitting on a rank for two hours in a line of thirty cars at the Heuston rank won't even pay for the sandwich you choke down your neck at your desk. It CERTAINLY won't pay a mortgage.

I'd LOVE to get out of the taxi industry. I can't. There are no other jobs. I am backed into a corner where I owe thousands, have no income, qualify for no aid from any quarter, and cannot even afford to maintain the car I rely on for my business. If you had to pay for the desk you sit at and the pc you work at, and weren't even earning enough to cover that, you'd have real cause for gripe too. It is disgusting to come on here and read blasé comments from people sitting in leather armchairs telling other people in less fortunate circumstances to FOAD.

All I am saying is that it is tough out there for everyone. I'm 3 years into a 35 year mortgage which is worth 125% of the property's value so I am chained to this place which takes 60% of my net monthly salary. My credit card bill increases every month, as does the interest payment. I'm up to 8.5k. There is a promotion, transfer and pay rise freeze in my work. Everyone is in trouble. The buses are going to go on strike. Civil servants, cops going to strike too. Builders all having to sign on. This will have a knock on effect on retail, entertainment and manufacturing.

Your notion of someone preaching from a leather armchair is wrong and offensive. Yes, I know it is bad for taxi drivers but it is bad for everyone else. Sure, it's worse for some than others but we have all made choices in the past ten years and some have worked out better than others.

But you will find that there are too many people concerned about keeping the wolf from their own door than to worry about taxi drivers, bus drivers, Gardaí or anyone else.

antoinolachtnai

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I have stated numerous times on other threads. Im not repeating it, go and find it.

Plates were worth a small fortune in the past as there was a fortune to be made in the game when there was only 2000 plates around. This will never again happen and plates, if a driver is lucky will only ever be worth €65000

That's not bad money.

Your still banging on about mananging supply. How do I earn a living if im only allowed when and where a taxi firm tell me to?????

You say you can't earn a living as it is. I think it is wrong that you should have to go out to work without having any idea how many other cars will be on the road or whether there will be any work for you at all.

So you want to disband all the small firms that provide services to the people of those communities??
Where the old people of the area feel safe getting in their cars as they know most of the drivers????

No taxi company in Dublin will guarantee a particular driver for you. As it is if you ring a small firm at certain hours, your call gets diverted to another firm.

Consolidation is something that happens. Realistically there is going to be a lot of it in the next while in many industries in Dublin.

You want to create an operator monopoly of a few large firms and give drivers little choice in how they work??????

No, I never said anything about creating a monopoly.

So they regulator no longer sets the price?????? Even CIE cant set there own prices, what makes you think taxis will be allowed.

As it happens, taxi drivers can negotiate a lower price with a customer, so that's not strictly true. It is true that the meter fare is set by the regulator and in general this is the fare structure that is followed.

In fact, there is a consultation process between the Department of Transport and CIE to set prices. It is not the Department alone that sets them.

Lots of transport in Ireland has its prices set by the operator rather than a regulator (privately owned bus transport; car transport; couriers). Anyway, there is a real question over whether the regulator is the best place party to set prices, and this is an issue that has been raised by taxi drivers themselves.

Your post shows how little you know about taxis in Ireland

paulm17781

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You obviously have some major gripe with taxi drivers as all I see you do is make ridiculous statements like this one

Why don't you answer my question or any of the other "ridiculous statements" I've made? How will "making noise" help your cause. Is it supposed to do this or are you trying to prove how disruptive the taxi industry can be when it wants, hold the city to ransom so to speak.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

and go around thanking people for making arguements you are completly incapable of making yourself.

Hmmm, I'd debate that. More likely, these people have already said what I was going to say so I am agreeing without the need to post what they've already posted. There's no need to keep posting the same thing.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Others, while I may disagree with them at least have the ability to put forth an opinion, you just want to jump on everyone elses bandwagon.

I'm pretty certain I don't. I've said half the things these people are saying in other threads, I see no need to keep posting the same thing over and over. I couldn't really be bothered getting into arguments about economics over and over.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Would love to know how a taxi driver ****ed you over, bet its a great story

No story what so ever. I'm just sick of taxi drivers whinging. If you have a problem, get out of the industry accept your loss. That's what a lot of people are having to do at the minute and you're no different.

paulm17781

You said I'm not capable of giving my own opinions so hear we go.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why are there only a certain number of mobile phone operator licences???

There is a limited amount of radio spectrum available. Absolutely anyone can start a mobile company as an MVNO you just need an operator agreement. Radio spectrum is finite so it must be licensed.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why cant anyone just start a radio station and start broadcasting???

See above, it's all to do with radio spectrum.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why cant anyone just open a pub wherever they want?????

Because the powers that be won't allow us to drink, too much. However anywhere that sells food can now serve alcohol.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why cant anyone just start a bus route wherever they want?????

They can if the department lets them. It's not very profitable for the most part though so they don't

HydeRoad

paulm17781 wrote: »

No story what so ever. I'm just sick of taxi drivers whinging. If you have a problem, get out of the industry accept your loss. That's what a lot of people are having to do at the minute and you're no different.

I can guarantee you there are THOUSANDS of taxi drivers right now who would dearly love to get out of the industry they made their life in.

Since you are so visionary in your ability to state the 'bleeding obvious,' perhaps you would enlighten us HOW we might get out of the industry?

Would you tell 1900 Dell workers to 'get another job?' Would you tell 270 bus drivers to 'get another job?' Will you tell thousands of taxi drivers to 'get another job?'

I have tried EVERYTHING, to no avail. You seem to be very clever altogether, so I look forward to your answer.

To Terrontress, sorry for snapping your head off. Losing your home does funny things to someone's patience!

paulm17781

HydeRoad wrote: »

I can guarantee you there are THOUSANDS of taxi drivers right now who would dearly love to get out of the industry they made their life in.

Since you are so visionary in your ability to state the 'bleeding obvious,' perhaps you would enlighten us HOW we might get out of the industry?

Would you tell 1900 Dell workers to 'get another job?' Would you tell 270 bus drivers to 'get another job?' Will you tell thousands of taxi drivers to 'get another job?'

I have tried EVERYTHING, to no avail. You seem to be very clever altogether, so I look forward to your answer.

Accept your loss (investment) and move on. There is no other option. Taxi drivers aren't the only ones in dire straights at the moment. They are however the only ones going on like they're owed a living. There are lots of us looking for work or taking a step down life style wise. Why should taxi drivers be any different.

Ham'nd'egger

paulm17781 wrote: »

Accept your loss (investment) and move on. There is no other option. Taxi drivers aren't the only ones in dire straights at the moment. They are however the only ones going on like they're owed a living. There are lots of us looking for work or taking a step down life style wise. Why should taxi drivers be any different.

Pray tell, what do we do if we throw our hats at the job and give up?

The dole?
New jobs?
Live off the recouped value of our investments after they are sold?

I only ask as all three of these are non runners and better and worse qualified people don't seem to have any answers. And all this while Rome burns and Nero Dempsey and Nero Doyle fiddles.

antoinolachtnai

But what difference will it really make if the number of plates is capped?

I accept that there is a serious problem for drivers (which will subsequently turn into a problem for passengers too) but how will capping the number of plates resolve anything?

All it will do is cause the existing plates to be used much more intensively. There might be a bit of capital appreciation on the plate, but I can see that you really want is a job, not capital appreciation.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote: »

Pray tell, what do we do if we throw our hats at the job and give up?

I have no idea. What do I do if I lose my job. What does anyone do. If the business you've chosen isn't profitable, look at something else. I have several self employed friends in the same boat. They're not "making a bit of noise" expecting things to get better. They're looking for new jobs.

This thread was about the 20% discount that a company are now offering. Spook said (somewhere in here) he would rather not give this. Won't compete, won't throw in the towel. Comes here and whinges about the problems drivers face every day.

I understand drivers are facing problems I really do. They're not alone at the minute. The only option they have, like all of us, is to accept a loss and leave the business or keep on driving around for half minimum wage. Neither are particularly good options but that's what's there.

Ham'nd'egger

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

But what difference will it really make if the number of plates is capped?

I accept that there is a serious problem for drivers (which will subsequently turn into a problem for passengers too) but how will capping the number of plates resolve anything?

All it will do is cause the existing plates to be used much more intensively. There might be a bit of capital appreciation on the plate, but I can see that you really want is a job, not capital appreciation.

To halt PSV licences for a time will allow the market to settle down and to find it's feet for a couple of years before the industry can begin to grow again. It will afford the current operators some protection by the powers that be from the current unregulated mess even on a temporary basis and it will begin to give us some confidence that somebody seems to want to try and make it work out. It will give those drivers who are new time to bed in or leave if it don't suit them and it will give everybody breathing space. It will also give the powers that be time to assess the market correctly over a given time and to make better calls than the current occasional snap shots that is currently done.

It's worth pointing out that in the "Pre Reg" days, all 2,700 cabs operated almost on a 24 7 basis so the fleet was pretty much out all day every day and by more astute drivers. Things were better in many ways, just not at closing times.

On the inside looking out, the current regulatory system hasn't offered the current driver base any protection or support in our day to day trading; all we see or appear to see is more and more awkwardness that isn't making doing business any easier or more reasonable. On a day to day basis, we see the bogie drivers and guys taking the piss and it galls us when this happens and they get away with it, even after being reported.

You as a bus man, you may have read "Through Streets Broad and Narrow" by Michael Corcoran. The pages referring to the mess of unregulated buses tht led to the Transport Acts of the 1930's are eerily similar to what is going on now in this game.

antoinolachtnai

It wasn't just at closing time there was a problem in the old days. I remember waiting up to an hour for a taxi in mid-afternoon. This was not uncommon.

Letting the market 'settle down' is just not going to happen with that many plates out there, and people being made redundant. Existing drivers will certainly sell or rent on to new people. Nothing will really change for existing drivers, other than that their plate will be worth a bit. But that's not much use to them, if they just want to go out and earn a crust.

There are serious problems in the taxi market right now from a consumer point of view. You can't just wait three years and let things 'settle down'. If anything is being done, there has to be consumer-oriented reform as part of it.

One group who could well benefit from a cap would be existing taxi firms which own a number of plates. This might be a good thing if it started driving consolidation (although I don't think this is the right structure for consolidating the industry).

What statistics do we actually have on the market? Do we actually know how many taxis are out there on a given night?

Also, why not consider other means of making sure there is a living in the job - put expiry dates on the plates, require more frequent driver testing and standards, higher vehicle standards, whatever. The problem with these ideas is that the regulator isn't really set up to do them - that's why I suggest having a number of taxi firms that are to be responsible for increasing the quality of the service.

The current regulatory system was never supposed to give protection to the driver. It was supposed to give protection and reassurance to the passenger. The biggest problem is that the regime has basically failed to do that (other than in terms of making sure there is usually enough capacity on the road).

The passenger should be at the heart of reform.

Spook_ie

Terrontress wrote: »

All I am saying is that it is tough out there for everyone. I'm 3 years into a 35 year mortgage which is worth 125% of the property's value so I am chained to this place which takes 60% of my net monthly salary. My credit card bill increases every month, as does the interest payment. I'm up to 8.5k. There is a promotion, transfer and pay rise freeze in my work. Everyone is in trouble. The buses are going to go on strike. Civil servants, cops going to strike too. Builders all having to sign on. This will have a knock on effect on retail, entertainment and manufacturing.

Your notion of someone preaching from a leather armchair is wrong and offensive. Yes, I know it is bad for taxi drivers but it is bad for everyone else. Sure, it's worse for some than others but we have all made choices in the past ten years and some have worked out better than others.

But you will find that there are too many people concerned about keeping the wolf from their own door than to worry about taxi drivers, bus drivers, Gardaí or anyone else.

You signed up for a 125% mortgage, yer dope, what did you spend the 25% extra on, a nice holiday, a car, some furniture, not very good sense to pay for anything other than bricks n morter over 35 years... Don't tell me you sneaked an investment into some Anglo stock!!!!

A serious aside to you though, join the queue of taxi drivers and get down to MABS or SVdP, running up the credit card isn't the way to be going....

Terrontress

Spook_ie wrote: »

You signed up for a 125% mortgage, yer dope, what did you spend the 25% extra on, a nice holiday, a car, some furniture, not very good sense to pay for anything other than bricks n morter over 35 years... Don't tell me you sneaked an investment into some Anglo stock!!!!

A serious aside to you though, join the queue of taxi drivers and get down to MABS or SVdP, running up the credit card isn't the way to be going....

No, my wife and I took a 100% mortgage on a property that subsequently depreciated in value. If we were to sell tomorrow we would not get back what we owe. It's quite academic really as we budgeted for the monthly cost when it was worth more and that monthly cost has not changed. Still, it isn't nice to have negative equity.

I do have so much AIB stock that I could paper my whole flat with it but it isn't worth the paper it is written on.

Taxipete29

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That's not bad money.
Obviously I meant €6500, typo. Even with a cap plates would not rise in value as I said earlier



You say you can't earn a living as it is. I think it is wrong that you should have to go out to work without having any idea how many other cars will be on the road or whether there will be any work for you at all.

I always know how many cars are going to be out, thousands, thats my point

No taxi company in Dublin will guarantee a particular driver for you. As it is if you ring a small firm at certain hours, your call gets diverted to another firm.
No but customers get to know most of the drivers from continued use and only like using one company. I have worked for loads of companies in dublin and can guarantee you the passing off of work is extremely rare nowadays and no driver would accept this happening within a firm they work with
Consolidation is something that happens. Realistically there is going to be a lot of it in the next while in many industries in Dublin.
Alot of companies are already doing this where it works for them

No, I never said anything about creating a monopoly.
You said only have a few firms, that limits both consumer and driver choice, Its more like an oligopoly I grant you, but it wouldnt be good for either side



As it happens, taxi drivers can negotiate a lower price with a customer, so that's not strictly true. It is true that the meter fare is set by the regulator and in general this is the fare structure that is followed.
We can negotiate a lower price, but the fact is we cant afford to discount in a saturated and contracting market

In fact, there is a consultation process between the Department of Transport and CIE to set prices. It is not the Department alone that sets them.
There is consultation in most industries where a regulator or govt dept sets the price, but the last word is always with the Govt.

Lots of transport in Ireland has its prices set by the operator rather than a regulator (privately owned bus transport; car transport; couriers).[COLOR="RedYes but the key word is Private, Taxis are Public service vehicles[/COLOR] Anyway, there is a real question over whether the regulator is the best place party to set prices, and this is an issue that has been raised by taxi drivers themselves.

If the regulator listened more to the industry rather than outside consultancies, I guarantee the fare structure would be alot more equitable for passengers and drivers

Taxipete29

paulm17781 wrote: »

You said I'm not capable of giving my own opinions so hear we go.



There is a limited amount of radio spectrum available. Absolutely anyone can start a mobile company as an MVNO you just need an operator agreement. Radio spectrum is finite so it must be licensed.
Rank space would appear in this country to be finite, so you kind of made my point for me



See above, it's all to do with radio spectrum.




Because the powers that be won't allow us to drink, too much. However anywhere that sells food can now serve alcohol.



They can if the department lets them. It's not very profitable for the most part though so they don't

Yes they still need a licence though, and the department doesnt grant them all that easily

Terrontress

Anyway, what I do and don't owe and to whom for what is not the case here. My point is that taxi drivers are not the only one having it tough.

Getting back to the original topic, is the 20% reduction a good thing? I'm coming at this as a consumer with a woeful publict transport system. If we wish to socialise within the acceptable norms of the country the public transport system does not serve us. Nightlinks are being reduced, cost a fortune and offer a very poor service for certain areas. We are forced into taxis. This is not a typical situation in cities of the size and standing of Dublin. If you were to ask people what their patterns would be if they had public transport at a similar price and same routes as 5pm but at 3 am would they continue to use taxis. They'd say no. Especially if their prepaid public transport ticket worked at 3am.

So you basically have people availing of a service that, for the most part, they don't wish to avail of. They see it as the lesser of two evils. Offer them a way to lessen that burden they don't wish to bear and they will jump at it. Spook, you have said before that on a journey less than €10 it doesn't make much difference financially. The difference is psychological.

And I think that this discount crowd will change behaviour and clean up.

antoinolachtnai

In the north, the taxis (especially shared taxis) became an integral part of the public transport system, for various reasons.

Taxipete29:

There will still be thousands of cars out if you put a cap now.

I had a job passed on by a local firm just a few weeks ago. The phone was diverted to another taxi firm.

Why is consolidation OK, but having 7 large taxi firms not ok? 7 firms is not an oligopoly. 7 firms is a realistic number. That's 5000 drivers per company, 14 percent of the market. You would need that scale, realistically, to put the IT and quality systems into place. Having 10's or hundreds of taxi companies is not really choice, it's just confusion. Some of these firms we have at the moment, they're just awful. There are a lot fewer companies in other markets (for example, express carriers, global accounting firms; most categories of consumer goods) and no one is saying these markets are oligopolies. They are markets with barriers to entry, for sure.

But it just isn't cheap or easy to start a high quality taxi company. It's unrealistic to think that you can just put up a mast and call it a taxi company. We have loads of taxi firms at the moment, but very few of them are actually any good.

The taxi regulator doesn't seem to consult very much or very well from what I have heard. The minister would never force CIE to put up its prices if it didn't want to.

When you say that the taxi fare is not 'equitable' what do you mean? Do you think it is too high or too low?

Do you think drivers who do the 20 percent off thing have a lower cost base than you, or are they just fooling themselves when they take discounted work off the radio?

Privately operated buses are providing a public service too, and they are 'public service vehicles'. Limousines are also small public service vehicles'. These services set their own prices.

Anyway, even if you have regulatory oversight of prices, you can still have price variations for different firms and different grades of vehicle.

uma

race to the bottom has begun.

Comparisons with the six counties are unfair because the market is not flooded.

This 820 crowd have no roof signs and are not allowed to so for jobs phoned in to this number they will have 20% of the final bill deducted,but if the same driver picks up a fare off the street a minute later there will be no discount.Sure to lead to massive confusion

Indeed as one guy said earlier there is no reduction on the base which is now 92.55 a week under the Global banner ( c cabs,taxi seven,greyhound,pony cabs,executive cabs) plus 15% on eastern health board work,now 17% on rte work etc etc.The driver is been screwed while Noel ebbs who runs all these companies is in effect laughing all the way to the bank with over 1100 drivers paying at least 120 euro a week to the company.

With petrol prices shooting back up, a saturated taxi fleet and a recession its no wonder things have reached boiling point on the streets....

Taxipete29

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In the north, the taxis (especially shared taxis) became an integral part of the public transport system, for various reasons.

Taxipete29:

There will still be thousands of cars out if you put a cap now.
Thats why I have stated on numerous occasions capping needs to be part of a wider package of measure
I had a job passed on by a local firm just a few weeks ago. The phone was diverted to another taxi firm.
Name the two firms and Im sure you will find they are affiliated
Why is consolidation OK, but having 7 large taxi firms not ok? 7 firms is not an oligopoly. 7 firms is a realistic number. That's 5000 drivers per company, 14 percent of the market. You would need that scale, realistically, to put the IT and quality systems into place. Having 10's or hundreds of taxi companies is not really choice, it's just confusion. Some of these firms we have at the moment, they're just awful. There are a lot fewer companies in other markets (for example, express carriers, global accounting firms; most categories of consumer goods) and no one is saying these markets are oligopolies. They are markets with barriers to entry, for sure.
Your point is only to allow 7, if firms want to consolidate thats fine, but its not forced. Your idea would only serve to line the pockets of already wealthy and greedy operators who care nothing for the drivers or the public. If a firm is awful, dont use them. All markets you mention are not regulated in the same way as you are proposing.
But it just isn't cheap or easy to start a high quality taxi company. It's unrealistic to think that you can just put up a mast and call it a taxi company. We have loads of taxi firms at the moment, but very few of them are actually any good.
TBh from my experience in alot cases the smaller the company the better for customers as they are more eager to please. Im not saying all small firms are great, but I would like to know your definition of a bad company??
The taxi regulator doesn't seem to consult very much or very well from what I have heard. The minister would never force CIE to put up its prices if it didn't want to.
No she doesnt, thats why even the oireachtas commitee on transport has expressed there displeasure with how she is doing her job and with all thats going on, I think the writings on the wall for Kathleen
When you say that the taxi fare is not 'equitable' what do you mean? Do you think it is too high or too low?
I think its too high, but unfortunatly the present fares are necessary to sustain such a large fleet and allow drivers to operate and make at least a very modest wage

Do you think drivers who do the 20 percent off thing have a lower cost base than you, or are they just fooling themselves when they take discounted work off the radio?
They dont have a lower base cost, I know this for a fact. The drivers are fooling themselves as once again they are taking the hit with no guarantee of extra work yet the company has not taken any reduction in their money.

Privately operated buses are providing a public service too, and they are 'public service vehicles'. Limousines are also small public service vehicles'. These services set their own prices.
Yes but these industries are not as generic as the taxi industry

Anyway, even if you have regulatory oversight of prices, you can still have price variations for different firms and different grades of vehicle.

Thats true, but this only works in theory. The current prices are necessary with amount of taxis there are, without reducing those numbers it would be impossible to reduce prices significantly across the board.

If we use your idea and have 7 firms and 3 of those have a 20% reduction and are getting more business, then the other 4 also introduce a 20% reduction. Then it evens out again. Suddenly the drivers arent doing enough business to sustain such a discount and it reverts back to the way it was. Price wars only work where you can offer something extra on top of the discount, and with taxi firms you cant really as its a generic product. All they serve to do is reduce driver income and that is unsustainable in order to provide a decent service to the public. Nobody benefits in the long term except the 7 operating firms that have been created as there income will never decline.

antoinolachtnai

Taxis are not a 'generic product'. They have just become that way. Some taxis are better than others. Anybody who's ever ridden in a taxi will tell you that. There are lots of ways taxis can differentiate - the brand, the appearance of the car and the driver, the level of service and so on.

When you talk about a taxi firm, you are talking about something which is basically a radio base operation with a basic level of customer service. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a company which will invest in the business, and provide a high level of training and quality control. Very few of the existing operators seem to do that (and it isn't surprising really).

The alternative to having these companies is for the regulator to take a much greater degree of control and take responsibility for marketing the service as well. The regulator simply does not do this at the moment. I don't know if it is wise to develop the regulatory framework in this way. Maybe that is a good way to go.

The other alternative is that quality is allowed to slide further. This is what we are headed for at the moment.

Anyway, let's not get hung up on 7 companies. Let's say there were ten companies, or even 15 and they all had a ten-year franchise. How would that work?

paulm17781

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Rank space would appear in this country to be finite, so you kind of made my point for me

That is by no means the same thing. Radio spectrum is finite and constant. Rank space is determined by supply and demand. Physics vs economics.

Supply and demand is also governed by price. When someone has a low price say 20% off, it is likely to increase demand. Meanwhile people here are saying they wouldn't dream of offering 20% off, despite there being "no work out there", they just want the government to give them an easy living.

antoinolachtnai

Well, in practical terms taxi rank space is finite. There is nowhere else to put taxi ranks without abolishing parking spaces and bus stops, or buying property..

In practical terms, spectrum can be extended. You can free up new spectrum and reassign it. Any licence is only for a narrow piece of spectrum.

Snould there be an auction or beauty parade for taxi rank space?

Spook_ie

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Taxis are not a 'generic product'. They have just become that way. Some taxis are better than others. Anybody who's ever ridden in a taxi will tell you that. There are lots of ways taxis can differentiate - the brand, the appearance of the car and the driver, the level of service and so on.

When you talk about a taxi firm, you are talking about something which is basically a radio base operation with a basic level of customer service. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a company which will invest in the business, and provide a high level of training and quality control. Very few of the existing operators seem to do that (and it isn't surprising really).

The alternative to having these companies is for the regulator to take a much greater degree of control and take responsibility for marketing the service as well. The regulator simply does not do this at the moment. I don't know if it is wise to develop the regulatory framework in this way. Maybe that is a good way to go.

The other alternative is that quality is allowed to slide further. This is what we are headed for at the moment.

Anyway, let's not get hung up on 7 companies. Let's say there were ten companies, or even 15 and they all had a ten-year franchise. How would that work?

But this ground has been covered before, if you were prepared to pay more for a quality service ( the better the car the more you pay ) then drivers would probably do more to achieve it, instead you want 20% and more discounts, and somebody said we wanted our cake...pah!

Spook_ie

paulm17781 wrote: »

That is by no means the same thing. Radio spectrum is finite and constant. Rank space is determined by supply and demand. Physics vs economics.

Supply and demand is also governed by price. When someone has a low price say 20% off, it is likely to increase demand. Meanwhile people here are saying they wouldn't dream of offering 20% off, despite there being "no work out there", they just want the government to give them an easy living.

No ones asking for an easy living, more like a level playing field, you realy should focus less on specifics and try to get an overview of the industry's problems...and 20% off isn't going to do anything for the overall industry, even if it were extended to every single cab in Ireland

antoinolachtnai

Where did I say that I wanted a cheaper taxi service?

Spook_ie

paulm17781 wrote: »

That is by no means the same thing. Radio spectrum is finite and constant. Rank space is determined by supply and demand. Physics vs economics.

Supply and demand is also governed by price. When someone has a low price say 20% off, it is likely to increase demand. Meanwhile people here are saying they wouldn't dream of offering 20% off, despite there being "no work out there", they just want the government to give them an easy living.

Radio spectrum isn't finate, the elecromagnetic spectrum is finate, however you can broadcast in extremely high frequencies ( 30–300 GHz, VHF for comparison is 30-300 MHz) I would assume that you can (given the technology advancing all the time ) go even higher, infact infrared is used for transmission of TV controler handsets, it's just not as practicable or useable, just like having ranks in the wrong places or not enough of them...

paulm17781

Spook_ie wrote: »

Radio spectrum isn't finate, the elecromagnetic spectrum is finate, however you can broadcast in extremely high frequencies ( 30–300 GHz, VHF for comparison is 30-300 MHz) I would assume that you can (given the technology advancing all the time ) go even higher, infact infrared is used for transmission of TV controler handsets, it's just not as practicable or useable, just like having ranks in the wrong places or not enough of them...

With comparisons like that, I am not even going to bother replying. Keep whinging.

Spook_ie

paulm17781 wrote: »

With comparisons like that, I am not even going to bother replying. Keep whinging.

Whys that then, can't handle the fact that someone who knows something about the electromagnetic spectrum, drives a taxi? besides I was under the impression that you were comparing ranks and radio frequencies!

lods

Spook_ie wrote: »

Radio spectrum isn't finate, the elecromagnetic spectrum is finate, however you can broadcast in extremely high frequencies ( 30–300 GHz, VHF for comparison is 30-300 MHz) I would assume that you can (given the technology advancing all the time ) go even higher, infact infrared is used for transmission of TV controler handsets, it's just not as practicable or useable, just like having ranks in the wrong places or not enough of them...

:eek: That has to be one of the most pointless arguments i've seen in a long time.

maggy_thatcher

Spook_ie wrote: »

Radio spectrum isn't finate, the elecromagnetic spectrum is finate, however you can broadcast in extremely high frequencies ( 30–300 GHz, VHF for comparison is 30-300 MHz) I would assume that you can (given the technology advancing all the time ) go even higher, infact infrared is used for transmission of TV controler handsets, it's just not as practicable or useable, just like having ranks in the wrong places or not enough of them...

I'd like to see you build a radio that works for about 5 metres and purely line-of-sight? The higher frequency you go, it's penetrative power gets worse...

We're getting really off-topic though!

HydeRoad

Can I draw all these disparate meanderings together for a moment, and state one basic fact?

If I, as a taxi driver working on a radio, get an average of one fare every two hours, as was a regular occurence back in September / October, then unless it's a fare to Naas for €40, I will not earn enough money to operate my car economically, never mind pay my mortgages, etc. after I pay €80 or €90 a week to a base company. €80 a week was often two whole nights' work! That's why I left them!

If I, as a taxi driver working without a radio, cruise the streets for two hours without a fare, which is now the norm rather than the exception, then similarly, I cannot afford to run my car economically.

Either way, if I get TWO fares in two hours, or a €20 fare to the airport, then that is a lucky hour. Unfortunately, every hour would have to be lucky in order for me to pay my way.

If one taxi company, or three, drop prices by 20%, and get more business, all they are doing is taking the business from the drivers who don't drop by 20%. So there are still drivers who cannot earn a living. Then, if EVERYONE eventually drops by 20%, then all cannot make a living again, until someone drops by 30%. That is great for the consumer, but it is unsustainable as long as taxi drivers are expected to live on €3 or €4 an hour in one of the most expensive countries in Europe.

€4 an hour will not pay to keep a suitable car for taxiing on the road, even if the driver never had a mortgage to pay.

The simple fact is, no matter what discounts are available, how many ranks are provided, what kind of regulation is put in place, what kind of novel ideas people come up with to improve the standard of the taxi service, NONE of it is sustainable as long as taxi drivers earn an average of one fare every two hours.

Which comes back to the core issue, of too many taxis. The market will NOT find it's level, as taxi drivers cannot simply leave the industry if it doesn't work out for them, without a job or without the dole, neither of which is available to them.

When my 200,000 mile car pops it's clogs later this year, I have not one shilling to buy another car. So I have no job, no dole, and no money to buy another car to continue taxiing.

And if I cannot pay my way with a weekly bill to a radio company of €80 a week, I'm damned sure I won't pay my way renting a car for €150 a week or more.

Sort that one out!

baloonatic

Unfortunately your story is all too common. It is hoped that with qualitative controls the service level of the industry will improve. Some of the initiatives have already been introduced, and more will follow. In the next few years cars over 9 years old will not qualify as public service vehicles, and hence the quality controls introduced will reduce the numbers of taxis on the road. What that means to all drivers is that if you don't have the money for a newer vehicle, you cannot operate as a taxi. So the numbers will reduce, but the way in which it will happen is very "cut-throat".

- Steve

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HydeRoad

baloonatic wrote: »

Unfortunately your story is all too common. It is hoped that with qualitative controls the service level of the industry will improve. Some of the initiatives have already been introduced, and more will follow. In the next few years cars over 9 years old will not qualify as public service vehicles, and hence the quality controls introduced will reduce the numbers of taxis on the road. What that means to all drivers is that if you don't have the money for a newer vehicle, you cannot operate as a taxi. So the numbers will reduce, but the way in which it will happen is very "cut-throat".

Ah yes, back to the market finding it's 'level.'

Ideally, all these standards will come in, and reduce the number of taxis to a more sustainable level, and ensure a common minimum standard in the industry. Ideally it should have happened three years ago when the floodgates began to overflow.

I can guarantee you, there are thousands of taxi drivers right now, who would bite your hand off to get out of the industry, and leave more work for their remaining colleagues, thus leaving the market to it's optimum 'level.'

The problem remains, where are those thousands of surplus drivers to go? If there were five thousand jobs available tomorrow for taxi drivers to get out of the industry, they'd be gone already, and take their loss gladly. Most would gladly go on the dole too, as they'd be better off, and without the added expense of a large car, to boot.

It is a simple fact that there are too many taxi drivers right now. How you divide them up between those who go and those who stay is one argument. What you do with those who leave is another. But it must happen some time. Hopefully those in the government and the regulator's office who made excuses for this mess will be gone too.

gjim

Taxi driving will never earn more than a subsistence wage. The barriers to entry are simply too low both in terms of the skills and the capital required. To expect the government to erect artificial barriers (a numbers cap) in order to increase the income of existing service suppliers is unreasonable. Even if a restriction on supply were introduced, demand is falling because of general economic and demographic factors; the misguided campaign by drivers to increase fares hasn't helped demand either.

Like it or not the market is correcting itself; it is saying there are too many taxi drivers out there. It is telling you this in the simplest and most direct way possible - by lowering your income. There is a finite (and falling) amount of money spent in Dublin on taxis each year and currently this sum is being divided among too many drivers. You have two options; increase this total sum (by lowering fares for example or advertising) and/or wait until enough people respond to what the market is telling them and leave the business. It makes no more sense to campaign for the government to ban gravity than it does to campaign for the government to "do something" about this situation.

Until recently I was self-employed doing IT contract work in this country. The demand for these services has fallen given the economic conditions and in addition many companies have shifted to using cheaper off-shore (i.e. foreign) suppliers for contractors. It's a similar situation; increasing supply and falling demand. I certainly would never think of demanding that the government bring in restrictions to limit the numbers who can offer IT contracting services. Facing falling income, I had to take drastic action and effectively get out of the game altogether. This is life as a self-employed person and taxi driving is no different. Nor for that matter is blowing glass in Waterford or building computers in Limerick.

Taxipete29

gjim wrote: »

Taxi driving will never earn more than a subsistence wage. The barriers to entry are simply too low both in terms of the skills and the capital required. To expect the government to erect artificial barriers (a numbers cap) in order to increase the income of existing service suppliers is unreasonable. Even if a restriction on supply were introduced, demand is falling because of general economic and demographic factors; the misguided campaign by drivers to increase fares hasn't helped demand either.

Like it or not the market is correcting itself; it is saying there are too many taxi drivers out there. It is telling you this in the simplest and most direct way possible - by lowering your income. There is a finite (and falling) amount of money spent in Dublin on taxis each year and currently this sum is being divided among too many drivers. You have two options; increase this total sum (by lowering fares for example or advertising) and/or wait until enough people respond to what the market is telling them and leave the business. It makes no more sense to campaign for the government to ban gravity than it does to campaign for the government to "do something" about this situation.

Until recently I was self-employed doing IT contract work in this country. The demand for these services has fallen given the economic conditions and in addition many companies have shifted to using cheaper off-shore (i.e. foreign) suppliers for contractors. It's a similar situation; increasing supply and falling demand. I certainly would never think of demanding that the government bring in restrictions to limit the numbers who can offer IT contracting services. Facing falling income, I had to take drastic action and effectively get out of the game altogether. This is life as a self-employed person and taxi driving is no different. Nor for that matter is blowing glass in Waterford or building computers in Limerick.

Yawn, been answered many times. Boring

lods

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Yawn, been answered many times. Boring

Your starting to sound like the stereo-typical taximan that everyone hates. You know it all, no one else's problems are as big as yours, your the only one suffering :rolleyes:. Give us a break. At least you have a job.

Terrontress

HydeRoad wrote: »

Ah yes, back to the market finding it's 'level.'

Ideally, all these standards will come in, and reduce the number of taxis to a more sustainable level, and ensure a common minimum standard in the industry. Ideally it should have happened three years ago when the floodgates began to overflow.

I can guarantee you, there are thousands of taxi drivers right now, who would bite your hand off to get out of the industry, and leave more work for their remaining colleagues, thus leaving the market to it's optimum 'level.'

The problem remains, where are those thousands of surplus drivers to go? If there were five thousand jobs available tomorrow for taxi drivers to get out of the industry, they'd be gone already, and take their loss gladly. Most would gladly go on the dole too, as they'd be better off, and without the added expense of a large car, to boot.

It is a simple fact that there are too many taxi drivers right now. How you divide them up between those who go and those who stay is one argument. What you do with those who leave is another. But it must happen some time. Hopefully those in the government and the regulator's office who made excuses for this mess will be gone too.

First off apply for jobs. Take a bit of time filling in the application forms. You'll get into Tesco or McDonalds no bother. You can also apply for jobs which might use your skillset from taxiing such as van driver, clamper, sales rep.

When you get a job, start it but keep taxiing at the busiest times. You can ease from one job into the other. You'll have a decent car whose bills are being met by the taxiing and you can get to your other job in no time going down the bus lanes.

You are not as locked in as you think.

gjim

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Yawn, been answered many times. Boring

No it has not been answered. No taxi driver on this thread apparently has the intelligence to see the simple reality of their situation. You're asking for the circle to be squared.

I'll put it as simply as possible, maybe you'll understand then.

There is X euro spent in taxis each year in Dublin, which is shared on average among the Y taxi drivers. The only way for the average income to increase is for X to increase (which isn't going to happen given the state of the wider economy and the fare increases) or for Y to decrease. Therefore, if you want the average income to increase, there has to be fewer taxi drivers. It's a simple as that and there is no way around it. You cannot magic money out of thin air.

I don't particularly see that there's much advantage in having the government force people out of the business over allowing people decide to leave the business themselves. I'm sure you'd prefer the former as long as you weren't among the ones to be forced out but if they decided, for example, to take away all odd number plates and yours was one of them you'd be up in arms I'm sure.

Demanding that no more plates be issued (like your campaign last year to increase fares) show that you don't see the simple X and Y relationship above. A license cap would eventually feed into providing increased income for drivers if X was going up by 10-15% a year like it was for the last 20 years. But X is now falling so even if the number of plates is kept constant your income is going to fall.

And by the way, I didn't add the thing about IT contract work to get sympathy; I don't want sympathy. I did it to demonstrate how stupid and unreasonable this campaign by taxi drivers is and hopefully to show how I'd be laughed out of it if I rang Joe Duffy or whatever demanding "something be done".

philcsl

Back to the OP, I used this company last night and will certainly be using them again. Car arrived 5 mins after I rang them (which meant I had to chug a beer I had just opened). The driver (Irish) knocked 20% off the fare as advertised...

Not sure if its been mentioned but the driver said they still pay the same amount to City Cabs or whatever they are called now and the cab company pay for all the advertising and there is a radio campaign due to be launched soon.

Terrontress

philcsl wrote: »

Back to the OP, I used this company last night and will certainly be using them again. Car arrived 5 mins after I rang them (which meant I had to chug a beer I had just opened). The driver (Irish) knocked 20% off the fare as advertised...

Not sure if its been mentioned but the driver said they still pay the same amount to City Cabs or whatever they are called now and the cab company pay for all the advertising and there is a radio campaign due to be launched soon.

Did he knock 20% off the extras too or just the main amount?

Did he say if he is happy with the new setup?

uma

All the other EU countries have this so called " artifical barrier" with a cap on the numbers.

It is a Public service Vehicle ( when it suits the Government )

The 20% is off the fare not extras ( passengers,pick up charge,tolls etc) though if it is only one person it is only 40 cent so hardly worth bickering about either way.

Taxipete29

gjim wrote: »

No it has not been answered. No taxi driver on this thread apparently has the intelligence to see the simple reality of their situation. You're asking for the circle to be squared.

I'll put it as simply as possible, maybe you'll understand then.

There is X euro spent in taxis each year in Dublin, which is shared on average among the Y taxi drivers. The only way for the average income to increase is for X to increase (which isn't going to happen given the state of the wider economy and the fare increases) or for Y to decrease. Therefore, if you want the average income to increase, there has to be fewer taxi drivers. It's a simple as that and there is no way around it. You cannot magic money out of thin air.

I don't particularly see that there's much advantage in having the government force people out of the business over allowing people decide to leave the business themselves. I'm sure you'd prefer the former as long as you weren't among the ones to be forced out but if they decided, for example, to take away all odd number plates and yours was one of them you'd be up in arms I'm sure.

Demanding that no more plates be issued (like your campaign last year to increase fares) show that you don't see the simple X and Y relationship above. A license cap would eventually feed into providing increased income for drivers if X was going up by 10-15% a year like it was for the last 20 years. But X is now falling so even if the number of plates is kept constant your income is going to fall.

And by the way, I didn't add the thing about IT contract work to get sympathy; I don't want sympathy. I did it to demonstrate how stupid and unreasonable this campaign by taxi drivers is and hopefully to show how I'd be laughed out of it if I rang Joe Duffy or whatever demanding "something be done".

We did not campaign last year for a fare increase, if your going to argue a point at least make sure you have your facts correct.

No one is talking about forcing anyone out of the industry.

Your making the same comparisons people have made on this and other threads, it has been shown that the Taxi industry is different and cant be compared to IT, supermarkets or construction.

Dont make sweeping statements about lack of intelligence. You obviously feel that all taxi drivers are stupid and of a lower class. While our job may not be rocket science( or even IT) it does require some skills in order to serve the public properly and alot more ability to deal with people than you seem to have.

JennyAnt

While I feel for the people who are failing to make end meet in this game I cannot see why they should be allowed to put a cap on the numbers.
I am currently studying ACCA, hoping to qualify as an accountant next year. I can hardly start demanding that no one else be allowed to sit the professional exams because there are too many accountants and I want the work, now can I?

uma

You will not be operating as a public service accountant,clogging up traffic with an empty car circling around the place,burning fuel to beat the band eco unfriendly.

Accountancy has nothing in common with the Taxi Industry ,you might as well compare Taxi`ng with a Gardai. Complete nonsence.

philcsl

uma wrote: »

The 20% is off the fare not extras ( passengers,pick up charge,tolls etc) though if it is only one person it is only 40 cent so hardly worth bickering about either way.

I've used them twice this week and both times they gave 20% off the total fare incl pick up charge and 2 extra passengers both times

uma

Most will as its easier and it avoids confusion with the passengers,the drivers were told at a meeting in a d.4 hotel that the price was off the metered fare and would be advertised as such.

If you go the port tunnel or m50 dont expect it to be off that!

The social welfare are no offering 1,000 off a new taxi plate,scandalous.

Taxipete29

uma wrote: »

The social welfare are no offering 1,000 off a new taxi plate,scandalous.

Source???