College Fees

bricky10

It looks like they are coming in.

What do people think?


My opinion -> :mad:

GA361

They better not.We've all worked hard in secondary education with the expectation that said work would be rewarded with Free Third Level Education.
I mean if they introduce fees again after promising not to. . . . Well . . . words couldn't describe my anger,especially at a time when money is tight for most families.
Disgracefull.If they do this they surely will be voted out. . . .

challengemaster

I think if they do there'll be about 20 people going to 3rd level education next year

rainbowtrout

not necessarily. I'm not in favour of a return of fees at third level but considering the amount of people who can afford to pay for grind school education at a cost of at least €5000 a year there does seem to be money around to pay for education. Those that qualify for grants won't have to pay fees anyway. They never did. A lot of money that was channelled into third level education by families was simply moved to second level education grind school education instead.

GA361

rainbowtrout wrote: »

not necessarily. I'm not in favour of a return of fees at third level but considering the amount of people who can afford to pay for grind school education at a cost of at least €5000 a year there does seem to be money around to pay for education. Those that qualify for grants won't have to pay fees anyway. They never did. A lot of money that was channelled into third level education by families was simply moved to second level education grind school education instead.

That's all well and good,for the wealthy.

acer911

I'm pro-fees, and just before you say it im not wealthy either, its the price of education...

if you want to go to college get a part-time job and student loan, stop been lazy and get off your arses...


Bring them on... Its a brilliant idea....

trishasaffron

Eh it'd be a shame if fees prevented people learning how to use apostrophes. "College Fees" not "College Fee's":rolleyes:

rainbowtrout

GA361 wrote: »

That's all well and good,for the wealthy.

Well there are plenty of people in grind schools that I wouldn't class as wealthy and the train of thought would be 'if they can afford grinds schools, they can afford college fees....'


If fees come back people will still get to college if they want to. Free fees were brought in to benefit the poorest in society, and get more people going to college that may have been prevented from doing so financially. It didn't raise numbers attending college from those backgrounds significantly. It benefitted middle class families who used the money for other stuff, such as second level education and other lifestyle changes perhaps.


Batt is quite keen to bring fees back in, he might not do it this year but I'd say they'll be back for 2010 in some shape or form.

timmywex

Id like to see anyone whos family earns more than say 150000 a year having to pay fees. And anyone who went to a private secondary school, they were able to afford that so should afford college!

Tbh, its not the low income people that will be affected, its the ones in the middle who are just above the level for a grant!

Piste

What if they were able to afford secondary school because they didn't have to pay fees?

I was for some sort of fee system being introduced before the goverment decided it had enough money to recapitalise the banks. If it has the money to do that then it must have the money to pay for this so called "knowledge economy" they're lauding.

rainbowtrout

timmywex wrote: »

Tbh, its not the low income people that will be affected, its the ones in the middle who are just above the level for a grant!

yep, i was one of those, just above the grant threshold, my parent would have had to take out a loan for me to go to college... and then Niamh Breathnach announced free college education the year I was in LC (1996). She was a household favourite after that. Having said that, my parents were prepared to get a loan to put me through college if necessary and naturally me working part-time and during holidays would have contributed to that.

Delta Kilo

I think they will definitely be in. They wont call them "College fees" they'll have some other name for them such as "Educational Contributory Fund" or something of that nature. All sides seem to be in favour i.e. government, opposition and the institutions.

I think that instead of looking at this from an angry students point of view (which we are), we should look at this first like it isn't going to affect us (which it is).

It seems everybody wants some sort of a fee to be introduced for the following reasons:

Students don't appreciate the Degree they are getting because they are not paying for it. i.e. they don't realise the value in it.

Students, because they are not paying for it, tend to get more entertainment out of college instead of academic advancement, and as a result a lot of people do not finish college.

They say the reason why the UK and USA have the best universities (as regards student achievements and success rates) in the world is because they are fee paying. The Students there are more likely to study hard and get the degree because it is their own money that they are going to be losing.

It would, ultimately, be beneficial to both the university and the Government. The University would not be dependent on State Aid. They would have their own source of income and therefore would be able to improve the University

In my own opinion I think it is going to be how they introduce these fees and who, inevitably will be paying them. I myself, don't agree that the reason the UK and the USA have the best Universities is because they are fee paying. I think it is because the fees limit the amount of people who are able to do it and the people that can were always going to succeed anyway. It is not fair. It is the same as Fee paying secondary schools such as Yeats or Institute of Education achieve better results than your ordinary school can.

However, I do agree with the first 2 points. I know too many people who are dropping out of College because they spent the first semester in the pub. This would not be the case if they were paying for it. They would be more willing to succeed. But, I think that it should be means tested and only people above a certain income threshold (which will most likely be set so that it catches everyone) should have to pay the fees. I think it is unfair that some parents, who want their Children to do well, will pay the fees for Yeats or IOE but not the University which is ultimately going to provide them the opportunity to actually start making decent money.

Its just really a matter of how they are going to introduce these fees, not if. But how do they expect people to pay the fees now that we are verging on a very long depression?

For the record, I am a Leaving Cert. student who does not really want to have to pay these fees and I want to be able to enjoy College, not just worry about losing my money if I fail.

rainbowtrout

Piste wrote: »

What if they were able to afford secondary school because they didn't have to pay fees?

I was for some sort of fee system being introduced before the goverment decided it had enough money to recapitalise the banks. If it has the money to do that then it must have the money to pay for this so called "knowledge economy" they're lauding.

Secondary school education is free. People choose to go to fee paying schools.


By the time I left college and it's no different now, parking in college had become a major problem because so many students were driving their own cars. If a student can afford to buy a car and keep it on the road with tax, insurance and petrol surely there is money there? Again it doesn't apply to every student but there is a lot more disposable income around today than there was in the mid 90s.

I think it would be harsh to bring in fees for the full four years especially the way the country is at the moment but perhaps in the interim, students could pay fees for first year (except for students who qualify for the grant) and if they pass first year the rest is free. It would perhaps also help to improve attendance of students which has worsened over the years

Piste

If they want to cut down on the numbers of people failing/dropping out they could chrage people to fail/drop out.

In principle I'm not completely against the idea of fees in certain circumstances but now is definitely not the time for it.

challengemaster

acer911 wrote: »

I'm pro-fees, and just before you say it im not wealthy either, its the price of education...

if you want to go to college get a part-time job and student loan, stop been lazy and get off your arses...


Bring them on... Its a brilliant idea....

Lol. What kind of part time jobs do you have that cover about 10-15 grand a year?

It's not just College fees that have to be paid in a year, it's the price of living near the college(rent), cost of living in general, etc etc.

It's hardly a case of being lazy.

rainbowtrout

Piste wrote: »

If they want to cut down on the numbers of people failing/dropping out they could chrage people to fail/drop out.

In principle I'm not completely against the idea of fees in certain circumstances but now is definitely not the time for it.

It would be very hard to charge fees to a person who has left a course because of dropping out/failure. Fees would have to be paid upfront. It's not a perfect time to introduce fees but when will be? I'm not impressed with the recapitalisation of the banks either but if there is no money for anything colleges are probably going to take a hit sooner rather than later.

lou91

I'm a little bit sick of the "if they can afford grinds schools they can afford fees" argument. Grinds schools aren't popular because rich parents are stupid enough to blindly throw money at them, it's because the facilities provided by the government just aren't good enough sometimes. I go to the institute, but my family are by no means rich. Because of the area in which I live, I'm less likely to go to college than almost anybody in Dublin, or the country overall. Its all very well to say that high points can be achieved anywhere, but a school where teachers are attacked and people attempt suicide in the changing rooms isn't exactly the best place to get over 550. Also, a lot of the grind school critics don't live in Dublin, and without making too hasty a generalisation, country schools are of a much higher standard than those of North and Inner City Dublin. My family made sacrifices (extra shifts and the like) so I could finish my education, if fees come in I'll be back to square one. People seem to think that all people in grinds schools are wealthy, but that simply isn't the case. Some even take out loans to pay the tuition. Most people wouldn't have to if the state schools were less of a sham. Grind schools exist because of the government, and fees can be more harmful to grind school students than anyone else. Casually saying "sure they can afford it" - as the government seem to think - is ridiculously small-minded.

Apologies if that came off a little too "spoiled-little-rich-kid", i'm just bitter at the thought of 4 more years of fees that I can't really afford.

So, yeah. Grind schools = NOT the root of all evil.
(stupid computer not having a not equal to key)

Piste

The main thing is people seem to believe that the country is divided into two groups; people who can barely afford to go to secondary school and who should be exempt from college fees, and people with more money than sense who could afford to send several children to college. The reality is a lot of people would find it very hard to get the money together for college, especially if it's introduced without much warning. At least in the past parents had 18 years to save up for college, not they may only have a few months to get the money together.

And what about people who are estranged from their parents, or who do not get on with them? They should not be expected to have to pay fees simply because their parents earn a lot.

RandomUserName!

RandomUserName! wrote: »

(stupid computer not having a not equal to key)

≠

(Hold alt, and press #8800 on the number pad).

Piste

I tried that out of curiosity, didn't work

acer911

challengemaster wrote: »

Lol. What kind of part time jobs do you have that cover about 10-15 grand a year?

It's not just College fees that have to be paid in a year, it's the price of living near the college(rent), cost of living in general, etc etc.

It's hardly a case of being lazy.

You can earn a decent bit over the summer, holidays and weekends, im payin full fees, rent in dublin, food etc out of my own pocket and im able to afford it cause ive worked hard for the money to fund my education....

It is very much a case of been lazy...

Delta Kilo

RandomUserName! wrote: »

I'm a little bit sick of the "if they can afford grinds schools they can afford fees" argument. Grinds schools aren't popular because rich parents are stupid enough to blindly throw money at them, it's because the facilities provided by the government just aren't good enough sometimes. I go to the institute, but my family are by no means rich. Because of the area in which I live, I'm less likely to go to college than almost anybody in Dublin, or the country overall. Its all very well to say that high points can be achieved anywhere, but a school where teachers are attacked and people attempt suicide in the changing rooms isn't exactly the best place to get over 550. Also, a lot of the grind school critics don't live in Dublin, and without making too hasty a generalisation, country schools are of a much higher standard than those of North and Inner City Dublin. My family made sacrifices (extra shifts and the like) so I could finish my education, if fees come in I'll be back to square one. People seem to think that all people in grinds schools are wealthy, but that simply isn't the case. Some even take out loans to pay the tuition. Most people wouldn't have to if the state schools were less of a sham. Grind schools exist because of the government, and fees can be more harmful to grind school students than anyone else. Casually saying "sure they can afford it" - as the government seem to think - is ridiculously small-minded.

Apologies if that came off a little too "spoiled-little-rich-kid", i'm just bitter at the thought of 4 more years of fees that I can't really afford.

So, yeah. Grind schools = NOT the root of all evil.
(stupid computer not having a not equal to key)

What you clearly don't understand is that the teachers in the Grind Schools are paid for by the government. In fact, the Grind Schools are allocated the same resources as any other school. The teacher that is teaching you in IOE is trained to the same standard as every other teacher in the country. It is the tactics that these schools use that get them high points. Yeats is 9am to 9pm AFAIK. They have all these clever notes and techniques for squeezing every last point out of you. It is false. They are not providing a "holistic" education. They are simply gearing you for the actual exam and maximising your points so that there will be a queue of repeaters and LC students at their door the following September. They are only concerned about making profit. I know several people who went to these schools, got 500+ points, got into medicine or veterinary etc and dropped out because they hadn't the "natural" intelligence to do these courses. They all admitted that the grind schools were false and regretted having to spend a very difficult year in these schools.

It is largely up to the Student, imo. In my school there are many disadvantaged people and the facilities aren't great but people still get high results while becoming a "rounded" individual. These Grind Schools go against every philosophy that I value and I think it is an utter disgrace that the Government are subsidising these Schools. If they want to charge fees then let them pay for teachers etc themselves, just like private schools everywhere else in the world.

Delta Kilo

acer911 wrote: »

You can earn a decent bit over the summer, holidays and weekends, im payin full fees, rent in dublin, food etc out of my own pocket and im able to afford it cause ive worked hard for the money to fund my education....

It is very much a case of been lazy...

Might be fairly difficult to find a well-paying job this summer, given the situation we are in at the mo. Plus, we won't be in the labour market until the end of June so all those TYs will have filled up any vacancies in that time.

Delta Kilo

Piste wrote: »

I tried that out of curiosity, didn't work

don't press the hash key. Press alt, then 8800

acer911

Delta Kilo wrote: »

Might be fairly difficult to find a well-paying job this summer, given the situation we are in at the mo. Plus, we won't be in the labour market until the end of June so all those TYs will have filled up any vacancies in that time.

Source a job early, work weekends coming up to summer, its all about gettin in there and making the right impression, if you want to be educated you should ave to work dam hard for it, then maybe there wouldnt be so many wasters droppin out the whole time....

Gavin "shels"

Mass rioting if they come in.:cool:

acer911

RandomUserName! wrote: »

My family made sacrifices (extra shifts and the like) so I could finish my education,

You make sacrifices then, get a job and pay towards the fees.... We all have to make sacrifices, thats life....

acer911

Gavin shels wrote: »

Mass rioting if they come in.:cool:

And hopefully all those protesting hippies will eliminate each other....:rolleyes:

Delta Kilo

acer911 wrote: »

Source a job early, work weekends coming up to summer, its all about gettin in there and making the right impression, if you want to be educated you should ave to work dam hard for it, then maybe there wouldnt be so many wasters droppin out the whole time....

It is difficult to work weekends coming up to one of the biggest exams of your life, with all due respect. I for one, would not be allowed to do it. However, I do agree with you that if there were fees and if we had to work hard for them then we would value College more and as you say: "there wouldnt be so many wasters droppin out the whole time...."

acer911

acer911 wrote: »

And hopefully all those protesting hippies will eliminate each other....:rolleyes:

What, exactly, do you mean by this?

acer911

Delta Kilo wrote: »

It is difficult to work weekends coming up to one of the biggest exams of your life, with all due respect. I for one, would not be allowed to do it. However, I do agree with you that if there were fees and if we had to work hard for them then we would value College more and as you say: "there wouldnt be so many wasters droppin out the whole time...."

A few hours work on a saturday would not kill you tho, bit of a break for the turmoil of study i find... The first 2 years are not really that important examwise, just as long as you pass so workin a saturday or so coming up to them wont kill you if you have put in the work beforehand...