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College Fees
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-JammyDodger- wrote: »What, exactly, do you mean by this?
sorry what dont you understand about this???
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it is not all rich, spoiled brats that go to grind schools, alot of the people there actually take out loans themselves or there parents work their asses off to get there kids the best oppurtunity they can, people who attack grind schools come across as bitter and jealous.
the college fees should be assessed individually, i have money in my bank account as a result if a certain situtuation but i also have a 1 year old baby to bring up with this money, it is not possible for me to get a job to earn extra money as between looking after him,going to school and studying its next to impossible (before i get attacked i dont take any money from the govenment other than childrens allowance which every parent in ireland gets)0 -
I don't think that's really fair in all cases. Anyone I know who's dropped out of college has only done so because they weren't happy. I dropped out of college at the end of last year because it just wasn't the right course for me, I didn't enjoy it and didn't feel I was getting enough out of it to warrant sticking with something I hated for another 3 years. Nothing to do with not appreciating the degree or the academic advancement. Just wasn't right.Delta Kilo wrote: »-
Students don't appreciate the Degree they are getting because they are not paying for it. i.e. they don't realise the value in it.
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Students, because they are not paying for it, tend to get more entertainment out of college instead of academic advancement, and as a result a lot of people do not finish college.
Its just really a matter of how they are going to introduce these fees, not if. But how do they expect people to pay the fees now that we are verging on a very long depression?
Yeah this is the part that baffles me. For years everyone's been banging on about how foreign companies want to invest here because of our well educated workforce. Now all these companies are leaving, thousands of people have lost jobs, people with all sorts of degrees and PhDs and god knows what can't get work.
Why on earth would they limit 3rd level opportunities for students?
Unemployment means nobody can afford college.
Not being able to afford college means no qualification.
No qualification means limited job prospects.
Uneducated work force means less foreign investment.
Less foreign investment means continued unemployment.
Do none of them see the problem here? Why target the group in society who'll be left to deal with this mess in 10 years time when the current government have retired on their guaranteed pensions?
All I know is I'm struggling enough to earn money to go back to college this year coming and I don't even have to live out of home. Diriculous.0 -
I'm not talking about working during college, i'm talking about working coming up to the Leaving Cert. I wouldn't consider working a min-wage job as a break from study, tbh.A few hours work on a saturday would not kill you tho, bit of a break for the turmoil of study i find... The first 2 years are not really that important examwise, just as long as you pass so workin a saturday or so coming up to them wont kill you if you have put in the work beforehand...
How is this going to sound to an employer:
18 yrs old - higher min wage rate
Only able to work a few hours on a saturday because of study.
Can't work the first 3 weeks of June at all.
16 years old - lower min wage rate
Can work all weekend and each weekday evening coming up to the Summer
Can work all summer
Who would you employ?0 -
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-JammyDodger- wrote: »The intent of what you've said is blurred because you used a :rolleyes:; it's hard to tell whether it was a hint at sarcasm, or a derogatory dig at those who protest. Let's hope that it was the former of the two.
sorry, should not have put dat in, yes it was a derogatory dig....0 -
Delta Kilo wrote: »I'm not talking about working during college, i'm talking about working coming up to the Leaving Cert. I wouldn't consider working a min-wage job as a break from study, tbh.
How is this going to sound to an employer:
18 yrs old - higher min wage rate
Only able to work a few hours on a saturday because of study.
Can't work the first 3 weeks of June at all.
16 years old - lower min wage rate
Can work all weekend and each weekday evening coming up to the Summer
Can work all summer
Who would you employ?
i see your point on this but rely on a student loan to get you through the first year and then work your ass off... anything can be done if you work hard enough, every1 would be able to afford fee's there just too lazy to put in the effort to work....0 -
sorry, should not have put dat in, yes it was a derogatory dig....
If you're going to make a derogatory statement, at least back it up with opinions that are somewhat credible.
So, tell me, what's so wrong about protesting about third level fees? Is your problem with the actual protesting in itself (I get this impression as you called protesters 'hippies')? Or, does your problem lie with a the idea of others not wanting to pay fees?0 -
-JammyDodger- wrote: »If you're going to make a derogatory statement, at least back it up with opinions that are somewhat credible.
So, tell me, what's so wrong about protesting about third level fees? Is your problem with the actual protesting in itself (I get this impression as you called protesters 'hippies')? Or, does your problem lie with a the idea of others not wanting to pay fees?
My problem lies with people(students) been to lazy to make sacrifices in order to pay for the fees, people are giving it all this la dee daa about not been able to afford it but with some hard work it is easily affordable... get an extra job work a few extra shifts etc, its not hard, just get off your lazy arses for something other than protesting....0 -
it is not all rich, spoiled brats that go to grind schools, alot of the people there actually take out loans themselves or there parents work their asses off to get there kids the best oppurtunity they can, people who attack grind schools come across as bitter and jealous.
I'm not bitter or jealous for your info. I'm just mature enough to realise that life isn't all about getting max points in LC, struggling through a course you don't like and pulling your hair out when you are working because you are not suited to that career. This is what a grind school prepares you for. Not to be tooting my own horn but I have got 540+ in all assessments, including Xmas and summer exams since the beginning of 5th year in my local, public school. The course I want to do is 395 points. I am doing this course, not because it will make me a millionaire but because it is a career path that genuinely interests me and I feel I would be happy in that environment and also enjoy the course. That is what life is about. Not becoming a doctor or vet just because the neighbours son/daughter is only a teacher. The money won't buy you happiness.
A lot of people think it would be great being a doctor, prancing around a hospital with a stethoscope around your neck, a clipboard under your oxter and a team of nurses at your command. But, how would you handle telling people they are terminally ill, telling them they are going to die, telling a young couple that there newborn will have to go to Crumlin hospital... how would you cope with that. They are the questions that wannabe doctors should be asking themselves, not wondering what bank they will invest their money in.0 -
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We're in a recession, we should be promoting education. If they do this then this country really is going to ****. Rather than set a standard fee and have families just over the grant limit struggling, I personally think it would make more sense to have a tax or levee on high income families who send their children to third level education.0
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My problem lies with people(students) been to lazy to make sacrifices in order to pay for the fees, people are giving it all this la dee daa about not been able to afford it but with some hard work it is easily affordable... get an extra job work a few extra shifts etc, its not hard, just get off your lazy arses for something other than protesting....
So, what you're saying is that a student who is doing a course, even with a large number of hours, should have to work to provide that education? I agree with you on some levels. But, I don't think it's feasible to attend college (and hope to get a degree of a high standard) and also work enough hours to afford the ~€8k annual fees (don't forget that's excluding the costs of living, accomodation etc.). I agree that it is fair that students should provide for their own education, but, I don't think we should have to.
Ireland is unique in that it is one of only a few countries that provide a free third level education. This has resulted in us obtaining a highly educated workforce, one that surpasses many other countries. If fees are re-introduced, we will lose this; we'll no longer be unique in that respect, we'll lose any future interest in our workforce. If the government are providing free third level education now, they should continue to provide it: re-introducing fees, in whatever creative guise they do, will only to the country, and its inhabitants, harm. They could at least provide a few years of notice, bringing them back over night is ridiculous.0 -
I don't think that's really fair in all cases. Anyone I know who's dropped out of college has only done so because they weren't happy. I dropped out of college at the end of last year because it just wasn't the right course for me, I didn't enjoy it and didn't feel I was getting enough out of it to warrant sticking with something I hated for another 3 years. Nothing to do with not appreciating the degree or the academic advancement. Just wasn't right.
Fair play to you for doing that, it must have took a lot of courage and I'm sure your parents weren't best impressed but I feel you have made the right decision. Happiness is key.
Sorry, my post does make it seem that all people who drop out of college are wasters but I don't believe so. I just know a few lads who dropped out of college because they went to a combined total of 6 lectures and failed all their exams and didn't see any point in repeating.
Just out of curiosity, now that you have the hindsight, what came up in college that you didn't like and didn't expect to come up when filling in your CAO form? What was it that made you change and what would you recommend people to go for when filling out their CAO forms. Follow the money or the heart?0 -
well fair play to you and its great that your school is good but a lot of public schools just are not as good as they should be and that is why people leave them(except in the case of being forced there by parents).
i agree with you on the medicine point, especially with the hpat this year so many people seem to be thinkin oh great ill do medicine too, having not even thought about the fact that if they do do it they will be studying for the rest if their lives, may have money but no time to spend it, on call at night time and at weekends etc etc. ive asked a few people why they want to do medicine and ive been told "you get paid really well", yes thats great but have you actually thought about what the course entails and the job after that, alot of the time i think not.
a lot of people will choose the wrong course but thats not nessecarily anything to do with being in a public or private school, in fact i dont think it has anything to do with it.0 -
-JammyDodger- wrote: »So, what you're saying is that a student who is doing a course, even with a large number of hours, should have to work to provide that education? I agree with you on some levels. But, I don't think it's feasible to attend college (and hope to get a degree of a high standard) and also work enough hours to afford the ~€8k annual fees (don't forget that's excluding the costs of living, accomodation etc.). I agree that it is fair that students should provide for their own education, but, I don't think we should have to.
Ireland is unique in that it is one of only a few countries that provide a free third level education. This has resulted in us obtaining a highly educated workforce, one that surpasses many other countries. If fees are re-introduced, we will lose this; we'll no longer be unique in that respect, we'll lose any future interest in our workforce. If the government are providing free third level education now, they should continue to provide it: re-introducing fees, in whatever creative guise they do, will only to the country, and its inhabitants, harm. They could at least provide a few years of notice, bringing them back over night is ridiculous.
Im in this situation, im providing for myself, full fees €4000+, accomodation etc, and doing a high standard business degree course, i work my ass off during summer, spare time etc to get to where i am, if i can so it other can too, there just afraid of doing a bit of hard work, lets face it we're becoming a lazy society... Also student loans are available with very good interest rates so if all came to all this is an option too...
Ireland lost its uniqueness as regards this a good few years ago, we are now going in the other direction, the introduction of fee's will create a better more determined workforce in my opinion...0 -
i see your point on this but rely on a student loan to get you through the first year and then work your ass off... anything can be done if you work hard enough, every1 would be able to afford fee's there just too lazy to put in the effort to work....
See you say this like it's the easiest thing in the world. You say this as if employers are only dying to employ 18 year olds. You say this as if banks are falling overthemselves to provide loans to the people least likely to be able to pay them back. You seem to think it's easy enough to pay fees, you must be very lucky to have found a job, but you need to wake up and realise it's not going to be as easy for everyone and the vast majority of people are going to have to rely on their parents.
I worked 9-5 5 days a week for 6 weeks for well over minimum wage, during those 6 weeks I also worked another job on Sundays for less than minimum wage, I kept up this Sunday job all summer. By the end of the Summer I didn't even have enough money to afford half the fees.0 -
See you say this like it's the easiest thing in the world. You say this as if employers are only dying to employ 18 year olds. You say this as if banks are falling overthemselves to provide loans to the people least likely to be able to pay them back. You seem to think it's easy enough to pay fees, you must be very lucky to have found a job, but you need to wake up and realise it's not going to be as easy for everyone and the vast majority of people are going to have to rely on their parents.
I worked 9-5 5 days a week for 6 weeks for well over minimum wage, during those 6 weeks I also worked another job on Sundays for less than minimum wage, I kept up this Sunday job all summer. By the end of the Summer I didn't even have enough money to afford half the fees.
there is plenty of extra work out there too, promotions etc which pay good money (€15+ per hour) and are good fun, yes i did find a good job but it took alot of hard work to find it and i still do extra work when i can even though i dont need to...
Cut back a bit on the beer etc and if your still short thats where your student loan comes into effect...0 -
You're completely deluded if you think there are many student jobs going. Not to mention that the work required to earn enough on minimum wage (of which there is talk of lowering- but that's for another thread) to pay fees for an entire year would impact severely on a students' performance in a demanding course.0
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well fair play to you and its great that your school is good but a lot of public schools just are not as good as they should be and that is why people leave them(except in the case of being forced there by parents).
a lot of people will choose the wrong course but thats not nessecarily anything to do with being in a public or private school, in fact i dont think it has anything to do with it.
Its not that my school is in anyway good. We have a broad range of students and our facilities, you can trust me are not of a high standard. I just get on in the environment that I have. I make use of what we have, not complain about what we don't have. I pay attention in class and do the homework. I dont do 4hrs study a night or anything near it but I just show an interest to whatever subject I am doing, whether or not I like it. The teachers are humans doing a job. I dont wish to make anybodys job more difficult or cause hassle and just do the work. They are the secrets to my success.
I hate the way parents force their kids to these schools. They have to let the kids live their own lives and learn from their mistakes, not live the life that they never had the opportunity to live. Its false. Not everyone is capable of getting high points but should work hard to realise their potential, whatever that may be, regardless of what school they are attending.
I think people choose the wrong course because it is not only them making the decision. Parents usually have a strong influence on their decisions. It could also be a lack of knowledge of the course, such as people doing medicine for the money.0 -
You're completely deluded if you think there are many student jobs going. Not to mention that the work required to earn enough on minimum wage (of which there is talk of lowering- but that's for another thread) to pay fees for an entire year would impact severely on a students' performance in a demanding course.
well thats your opinion, typical attitude of a person who has never had to fend for themself, there are loads of part-time jobs out there for students, spend and hour on a few job websites lookin in the papers and you'll pick up at least 3.... If you look hard and fight hard enough you will find them...0 -
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well thats your opinion, typical attitude of a person who has never had to fend for themself, there are loads of part-time jobs out there for students, spend and hour on a few job websites lookin in the papers and you'll pick up at least 3.... If you look hard and fight hard enough you will find them...
I'm afraid I agree with Piste. It is very naive of you to make those comments as thousands and thousands of people lose their jobs each week. Post a link to where you can find these jobs. I know people who have searched my local town for jobs and nobody is willing to take on more employees. Even Supermacs! Look at the news someday. If I had the opportunity to work, or give my job to a guy who has just lost his job and has a mortgage and family to support I would gladly give this job to him, regardless of what fees I have to pay. It is more important that this man has a job than me who is in Full-time education just because I have these unfair fees to pay. You make it sound all to easy. People are losing their jobs in all sectors yet you are saying there are loads of jobs! What world are you living in?
Try your local bank for a student loan tomorrow and you'll see the welcome you get. I believe a newspaper done a case study on Business graduates today vs busines graduates 3 years ago recently. 3 years ago they would have walked into a job, now, all they can expect to walk into is the social welfare office. That is why the banks would give you a student loan up until last year. Now they will not because the graduates are not finding employment and not able to pay back the loans.
I hope you always have it as good.0 -
well thats your opinion, typical attitude of a person who has never had to fend for themself, there are loads of part-time jobs out there for students, spend and hour on a few job websites lookin in the papers and you'll pick up at least 3.... If you look hard and fight hard enough you will find them...
No I have never *had* to fend for myself because I am under 18 so my parents provide for me. That said I have worked since Transition Year and only gave it up earlier in 6th year, I worked all through the summer in 3 different jobs. I might also add that the only reason I found 2 of these jobs was through my sxhool and a neighbour, the third I had worked in for a while. I dropped around about 30 CVs all over town and I had friends who did the same and heard absolutely nothing back (even though I have experience in the retail sector). It shows complete naivete to say that the only reason someone can't find a job is sheer laziness.0 -
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Delta Kilo wrote: »I'm afraid I agree with Piste. It is very naive of you to make those comments as thousands and thousands of people lose their jobs each week. Post a link to where you can find these jobs. I know people who have searched my local town for jobs and nobody is willing to take on more employees. Even Supermacs! Look at the news someday. If I had the opportunity to work, or give my job to a guy who has just lost his job and has a mortgage and family to support I would gladly give this job to him, regardless of what fees I have to pay. It is more important that this man has a job than me who is in Full-time education just because I have these unfair fees to pay. You make it sound all to easy. People are losing their jobs in all sectors yet you are saying there are loads of jobs! What world are you living in?
Try your local bank for a student loan tomorrow and you'll see the welcome you get. I believe a newspaper done a case study on Business graduates today vs busines graduates 3 years ago recently. 3 years ago they would have walked into a job, now, all they can expect to walk into is the social welfare office. That is why the banks would give you a student loan up until last year. Now they will not because the graduates are not finding employment and not able to pay back the loans.
I hope you always have it as good.
Ok maybe it is somewhat naive of me to make a few of these comments, but if you worked and saved from an early age(15-16) you can afford it, there is plenty of promotions work out there for students tho, just look up all the marketing/promotions sites you will find them... for an older person with family it is harder to get jobs alrite, not many out there for them but there is for students i believe, we are more dispensable so less effort/risk in taking us on... i am living very much in the real world, i may not be as shy etc as other people lookin for jobs but it is these extra steps that obviously have stood me in better stead than others...
Students loans are still easily obtained, many of my fellow peers have got them and i believe i would also be able to get one if i needed, i will go into my bank next week and see if this is still the case...0 -
Right guys id love to continue this discussion all night, it has been both stimulating and interesting among other things i may add but i have college and work tomorrow, so gentlemen i bid you good night...0
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RandomUserName! wrote: »I'm a little bit sick of the "if they can afford grinds schools they can afford fees" argument. Grinds schools aren't popular because rich parents are stupid enough to blindly throw money at them, it's because the facilities provided by the government just aren't good enough sometimes. I go to the institute, but my family are by no means rich.
Students are not obliged to go to a grind school if they are not happy with their local school. It isn't the only option.And what about people who are estranged from their parents, or who do not get on with them? They should not be expected to have to pay fees simply because their parents earn a lot.
Students in that situation can get assessed individually if they are supporting themselves as far as i know. I'd imagine they'd be supporting themselves if they were estranged from their parents.Delta Kilo wrote: »What you clearly don't understand is that the teachers in the Grind Schools are paid for by the government. In fact, the Grind Schools are allocated the same resources as any other school. The teacher that is teaching you in IOE is trained to the same standard as every other teacher in the country.
While I agree with your other views on grind schools, this isn't true. Some fee paying schools that operate as normal schools do, get some government funding, some of their teachers are paid by the department. The fees are then used for other things like employing extra teachers to keep pupil teacher ratio down or to offer minority subjects or for sport etc. I'm not saying it's right, that's just the way it is.. and is for another thread. Grind schools in the sense that they're being discussed here (Leeson St, Bruce, Yeats etc) are not funded by the government. They are essentially privately owned businesses. The government does not pay for the teachers in these schools. And while most of the people teaching in grind schools are qualified teachers, some of them aren't. I know plenty of people who taught in grind schools as postgrad students to earn extra money or taught in them straight out of college with no proper teaching experience. So they can be hit and miss in some subjects.it is not all rich, spoiled brats that go to grind schools, alot of the people there actually take out loans themselves or there parents work their asses off to get there kids the best oppurtunity they can, people who attack grind schools come across as bitter and jealous.
the college fees should be assessed individually, i have money in my bank account as a result if a certain situtuation but i also have a 1 year old baby to bring up with this money, it is not possible for me to get a job to earn extra money as between looking after him,going to school and studying its next to impossible (before i get attacked i dont take any money from the govenment other than childrens allowance which every parent in ireland gets)
I was one of those people who is not in favour of grind schools. I'm not bitter or jealous. I speak as a teacher. They create a two tier education system and while some people make a sacrifice to go there, there are plenty who don't have to.
College fees are assessed individually. It's called means testing and it is used to determine who gets the grant and ultimately who had to pay fees back in the day.Yeah this is the part that baffles me. For years everyone's been banging on about how foreign companies want to invest here because of our well educated workforce. Now all these companies are leaving, thousands of people have lost jobs, people with all sorts of degrees and PhDs and god knows what can't get work.
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Foreign companies may have come for the well educated workforce but they also came for the tax breaks and many left this country over the past number of years because their tax break was finished or it was cheaper to manufacture elsewhere. Dell being the main example of that recently. There were huge numbers of people working in Dell that did not require third level education to do their job, so the work is now being shipped out to Poland. Nothing to do with the educated workforce. Some jobs required a high skill set but not the majority.-JammyDodger- wrote: »So, what you're saying is that a student who is doing a course, even with a large number of hours, should have to work to provide that education? I agree with you on some levels. But, I don't think it's feasible to attend college (and hope to get a degree of a high standard) and also work enough hours to afford the ~€8k annual fees (don't forget that's excluding the costs of living, accomodation etc.). I agree that it is fair that students should provide for their own education, but, I don't think we should have to.
This doesn't make sense.-JammyDodger- wrote: »Ireland is unique in that it is one of only a few countries that provide a free third level education. This has resulted in us obtaining a highly educated workforce, one that surpasses many other countries. If fees are re-introduced, we will lose this; we'll no longer be unique in that respect, we'll lose any future interest in our workforce. If the government are providing free third level education now, they should continue to provide it: re-introducing fees, in whatever creative guise they do, will only to the country, and its inhabitants, harm. They could at least provide a few years of notice, bringing them back over night is ridiculous.
It doesn't matter how well educated our workforce is if it costs a fortune to employ them. There is also a large portion of that workforce that hold degrees and work in jobs that don't require degrees in the first place. Check out any call centre in the country, it's full of arts students. If you wanted to play devil's advocate, could argue that these people could have started working this job straight after school and saved the government a fortune in college fees while they got a degree that they couldn't get employment with in their field of study.
I'm also getting a sense in general from this thread that third level education is seen as a right instead of a privilege. The bottomless pit of money is gone, it can no longer be seen as a right. A cut in resource hours at primary school level were announced today, which means a lot of children will be disadvantaged and won't have a chance in the most basic level of the education system. Most people in Ireland have the opportunity of at least getting to leaving cert whether they choose to or not. Surely every child should be extended the right of a decent primary education before demands that free fees be kept. As I said at the start of this thread I'm in favour of free fees, but it's not going to stay that way.0 -
Delta Kilo wrote: »Fair play to you for doing that, it must have took a lot of courage and I'm sure your parents weren't best impressed but I feel you have made the right decision. Happiness is key.
Sorry, my post does make it seem that all people who drop out of college are wasters but I don't believe so. I just know a few lads who dropped out of college because they went to a combined total of 6 lectures and failed all their exams and didn't see any point in repeating.
Just out of curiosity, now that you have the hindsight, what came up in college that you didn't like and didn't expect to come up when filling in your CAO form? What was it that made you change and what would you recommend people to go for when filling out their CAO forms. Follow the money or the heart?
Well I did music in DIT and while music is a huge part of my life doing it every day was ruining my love of it. I finished the year and did my exams and passed but it wasn't something I wanted to continue with. My parents were surprised alright but didn't mind too much. I have some savings and I'm trying to save as much as possible this year to be able to pay the fees.
My next course will hopefully be dental hygiene or nursing because it's something I'm hugely interested in.
And always follow your heart by all means! No point in being filthy rich if you're unhappy with your life.0 -
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University fees you say!?
I have a robot army for just the thing!0 -
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Why are peope so vehemently opposed to fees? Our third level institutions are currently hugely underfunded. I believe that they ned more money to make Ireland more competitive and to crete thie "knowledge economy". However if they were introduced then thousans of people (including me) would not be able to afford to go. I think that the only viable solution would be for the Government to give you the loan of the fees with the expectation that you would pay them back when you get a full time job, they already have this system in Australia and it seems to work.University fees you say!?
I have a robot army for just the thing!0
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