College Fees

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whadabouchasir wrote: »

Why are peope so vehemently opposed to fees? Our third level institutions are currently hugely underfunded. I believe that they ned more money to make Ireland more competitive and to crete thie "knowledge economy". However if they were introduced then thousans of people (including me) would not be able to afford to go. I think that the only viable solution would be for the Government to give you the loan of the fees with the expectation that you would pay them back when you get a full time job, they already have this system in Australia and it seems to work.

The government are hardly in a position to be dolling out loans at the moment....

Giving out loans that wont start to be paid back for at least 3 or 4 years after theyre issued. Do we want a system like America with their crippling student loans? We could have a system like England's, but the government would probably manage to make a dogs arse of it!

K4t

There's something slightly perverse about University Presidents earning hundreds of thousands of euro a year asking 17 and 18 year olds to pay for their degree.

Anyway, as another poster already mentioned, it will be the people on incomes just above the grant cut off point who will suffer the most. And don't forget, these are the same people paying the most taxes (if they have jobs) at the moment. Fees will certainly have no effect on the wealthy.

themont85

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Why are peope so vehemently opposed to fees? Our third level institutions are currently hugely underfunded. I believe that they ned more money to make Ireland more competitive and to crete thie "knowledge economy". However if they were introduced then thousans of people (including me) would not be able to afford to go. I think that the only viable solution would be for the Government to give you the loan of the fees with the expectation that you would pay them back when you get a full time job, they already have this system in Australia and it seems to work.

The re-inroduction of fees is a cyncial ploy by the Govt to aliviate the budget deficet. Money saved i highly doubt will go into the 3rd level institutions. The fees issue while always debated only seems to get serious when this country is in a recession.

phasers

Student loans? Sure you just change your address once and they never find you! :pac:

If Fees came back it would have to be properly means-tested. I think I'd be alright (Hopefully) because I'm entitled to a grant as it stands, but many people who are a few euro over cannot be left paying full fees. A scale would have to be implemented properly, rich people pay full, down and down to the plebs like me who get either free fees or pay next to nothing.

Piste

Unfortunately I don't see them means testing it properly at all, I think they'll just say "ok right anyone earning over X amount is paying fees". This could lead to huge difficulties as some people who might appear to have a large income may have other expenses (ie may have a disabled child, may have several children in 3rd level education, may have a large mortgage to pay".

I just don't trust our government to handle it properly and ensure that only the people who can properly afford it, not scrimp asnd save to pay for it, will have to pay.

Then again there a part of me who thinks that if fees are introduced everyone should have to pay them, but on a sliding scale. Even if the people on the bottom of the scale are only paying a tiny amount it should be done, it's the principle of the thing.

Kenno90

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Why are peope so vehemently opposed to fees? Our third level institutions are currently hugely underfunded. I believe that they ned more money to make Ireland more competitive and to crete thie "knowledge economy". However if they were introduced then thousans of people (including me) would not be able to afford to go. I think that the only viable solution would be for the Government to give you the loan of the fees with the expectation that you would pay them back when you get a full time job, they already have this system in Australia and it seems to work.

Eh hello that money will never touch the third level institutions, it'll go straight in to the government's pocket ,
now i wouldn't mind working weekends and holidays to work off a loan
, but with this financial situation you have more of a change flying to the moon on a purple unicorn called 'bob'
then getting a loan , sure they(the banks) just got 7 billion Euro to keep them afloat ,
i'm in college now(my 2nd year) and what really pisses me off is that if these fees come in , i won't be able to afford them , and i'd have wasted 2-3 years of my life

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Piste wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't see them means testing it properly at all, I think they'll just say "ok right anyone earning over X amount is paying fees". This could lead to huge difficulties as some people who might appear to have a large income may have other expenses (ie may have a disabled child, may have several children in 3rd level education, may have a large mortgage to pay".

I just don't trust our government to handle it properly and ensure that only the people who can properly afford it, not scrimp asnd save to pay for it, will have to pay.

Then again there a part of me who thinks that if fees are introduced everyone should have to pay them, but on a sliding scale. Even if the people on the bottom of the scale are only paying a tiny amount it should be done, it's the principle of the thing.

Im not completely against fees, but personal circumstances kinda dictate my feeling on it at the moment, I dunno if my parents could pay for it, but the way means testing probably would work out, the system wouldnt favour them.

I dont trust our current government, but I really would trust FG (I mean Enda Kenny in general!) either, I think FF at them moment arent really at fault and are getting alot of **** for stuff thats completely out of their control. However, Bat O'Keefe seems to be pretty adamant that fees come back, so I wouldnt mind seeing the back of him!

Bring back Mary Hanafin! At least she tried!

Delta Kilo

They wont do a proper means test, imo. It will cost too much money to means test everyone. They will just set it at some income level and anyone earning over that will have to pay the fees. That tbh is unfair because it dosen't take other factors into consideration. If they done it right i.e. a proper means test then I would be in favour of it.

lou91

Delta Kilo wrote: »

What you clearly don't understand is that the teachers in the Grind Schools are paid for by the government. In fact, the Grind Schools are allocated the same resources as any other school. The teacher that is teaching you in IOE is trained to the same standard as every other teacher in the country. It is the tactics that these schools use that get them high points. Yeats is 9am to 9pm AFAIK. They have all these clever notes and techniques for squeezing every last point out of you. It is false. They are not providing a "holistic" education. They are simply gearing you for the actual exam and maximising your points so that there will be a queue of repeaters and LC students at their door the following September. They are only concerned about making profit. I know several people who went to these schools, got 500+ points, got into medicine or veterinary etc and dropped out because they hadn't the "natural" intelligence to do these courses. They all admitted that the grind schools were false and regretted having to spend a very difficult year in these schools.

It is largely up to the Student, imo. In my school there are many disadvantaged people and the facilities aren't great but people still get high results while becoming a "rounded" individual. These Grind Schools go against every philosophy that I value and I think it is an utter disgrace that the Government are subsidising these Schools. If they want to charge fees then let them pay for teachers etc themselves, just like private schools everywhere else in the world.

Right, first of all, I'm not trying to prolong the debate on the institute and grind schools. I know that argument has died a slow death on these boards. Having said that...

The IOE recieve no government funding whatsoever, unlike other private schools. Which is possibly why the teachers can't join the ASTI.

Your view on people who attend grind schools is a bit ridiculous TBH. How exactly would you define a "holistic" education? In places like the institute you're thrown into a year of 1000 people, given no individual attention unless you seek it out, and are absolutely in control of what you do. You don't do your homework or study, nobody cares. The teachers don't have time to be chasing after people, like they do in public schools. You have to take charge of your own work, believe me, they don't "squeeze every last point out of you". Personally, I do have an 11+ hour schoolday, but thats just because I don't want to waste the opportunity, not because I'm forced. So, yeah, the whole indepence thing is pretty holistic if you ask me.


And as for not having the natural intelligence? I'm really passionate about what I want to study in college. I've done a course in it before and read books on it in my spare time. I doubt I'll be much of a drop-out risk. The fact of the matter is that I'd have no chance of getting this course if I was somewhere else. So why exactly should that impact on paying fees? Its pretty irrelevant.


As for making sacrifices and getting jobs? Pretty much what Piste said about handing in CVs in EVERYWHERE and getting no results. And now with so many jobseekers with actual experience willing to settle for less, what chance do unqualified 18 year olds have???

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Delta Kilo wrote: »

What you clearly don't understand is that the teachers in the Grind Schools are paid for by the government. In fact, the Grind Schools are allocated the same resources as any other school. The teacher that is teaching you in IOE is trained to the same standard as every other teacher in the country. It is the tactics that these schools use that get them high points. Yeats is 9am to 9pm AFAIK. They have all these clever notes and techniques for squeezing every last point out of you. It is false. They are not providing a "holistic" education. They are simply gearing you for the actual exam and maximising your points so that there will be a queue of repeaters and LC students at their door the following September. They are only concerned about making profit. I know several people who went to these schools, got 500+ points, got into medicine or veterinary etc and dropped out because they hadn't the "natural" intelligence to do these courses. They all admitted that the grind schools were false and regretted having to spend a very difficult year in these schools.

It is largely up to the Student, imo. In my school there are many disadvantaged people and the facilities aren't great but people still get high results while becoming a "rounded" individual. These Grind Schools go against every philosophy that I value and I think it is an utter disgrace that the Government are subsidising these Schools. If they want to charge fees then let them pay for teachers etc themselves, just like private schools everywhere else in the world.

Where do you get you're info? Grind schools receive no funding.
My school, not a grind school runs 0845-2130 three days a week. So 9-9 isnt exactly crazy.

They charge fees and receive no funding, whats the problem.

Delta Kilo

RandomUserName! wrote: »

Your view on people who attend grind schools is a bit ridiculous TBH. How exactly would you define a "holistic" education?

A holistic education is where the school endeavours to provide the students a chance to explore as many areas as possible so as to become a "rounded individual" and also cater for everybodys interests and talents, not just the academic aspect of school. Examples of this are schools placing an emphasis on sports, religion classes where you learn moral values, in my school we are taught how to cook and manage a home (all boys school, Home ec not on curriculum) etc.

Here is an extract from an article in the Irish Independent from the then Minister for education Mary Hanafin:

Like her predecessor O'Malley, Hanafin is concerned about inequity in access to education and recently turned down requests for extra assistance for fee- paying schools. She's also no fan of grind schools.

"I don't like the narrow focus they have and fact that there is no emphasis on the broader education that our schools offer. I don't like to see people going full time to these colleges which are solely academic, as it puts way too much pressure on students," Hanafin says.

As one who went to one myself, I suggest that grind schools also give an edge to some students. But Hanafin doesn't think grind schools give their students much advantage. In the same breath, she dismisses the idea that different types of schools produce different results.

"If these students spent the same amount of time studying which they spend simply travelling to these grinds, they would be far better off."

The reality is, and it is backed up by the OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) study, that it does not matter what type of school you go to in Ireland, or where, you get the same opportunities.

This backs up almost all of my points. The fact that extra assistance for fee-paying schools was turned down suggests that they are in fact getting some government assistance. Almost all of my teachers give out about the fact that these schools receive government support even though they are fee-paying so that is where I heard about them being assisted. One of our teacher's sister is a teacher in a Grind school and she was shocked to hear of the practices that take place there. Things like getting Uni students to correct essays and assignments and the fact that they are preying on the fact that it is your money on the line. That is why they don't chase after you.

In places like the institute you're thrown into a year of 1000 people, given no individual attention unless you seek it out, and are absolutely in control of what you do. You don't do your homework or study, nobody cares.

I bet your parents would.

So, yeah, the whole indepence thing is pretty holistic if you ask me

That dosen't make sense. You don't understand the meaning of holistic education.

And as for not having the natural intelligence? I'm really passionate about what I want to study in college. I've done a course in it before and read books on it in my spare time. I doubt I'll be much of a drop-out risk.

Don't be so naive. I know a girl who wanted to do veterinary. She got 490 in the LC first time, went to Yeats and got 560 the second time. She lasted 2.5 months. She said there were words in the books she couldn't even pronounce let alone understand. She was really passionate about being a Vet until she started the course as well. She even told me how false going to Yeats was and how it was the biggest mistake she had ever made. The main function of Grind schools, as a private entity, is to make a profit. She is now training to be a teacher.

The fact of the matter is that I'd have no chance of getting this course if I was somewhere else. So why exactly should that impact on paying fees?

How do you know? You clearly have no self-belief. I hope you do not wish to become a doctor because Doctors need to have belief in their abilities. This is a worrying trend that students wish to "buy" their way into a course just as you do. I hope you don't regret these choices when you are up all night studying for college exams.

The full article that I quoted can be seen here:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/hanafins-school-of-thought-puts-emphasis-firmly-on-the-future-1275186.html

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Delta Kilo wrote: »

A holistic education is where the school endeavours to provide the students a chance to explore as many areas as possible so as to become a "rounded individual" and also cater for everybodys interests and talents, not just the academic aspect of school. Examples of this are schools placing an emphasis on sports, religion classes where you learn moral values, in my school we are taught how to cook and manage a home (all boys school, Home ec not on curriculum) etc.

Here is an extract from an article in the Irish Independent from the then Minister for education Mary Hanafin:


This backs up almost all of my points. The fact that extra assistance for fee-paying schools was turned down suggests that they are in fact getting some government assistance. Almost all of my teachers give out about the fact that these schools receive government support even though they are fee-paying so that is where I heard about them being assisted. One of our teacher's sister is a teacher in a Grind school and she was shocked to hear of the practices that take place there. Things like getting Uni students to correct essays and assignments and the fact that they are preying on the fact that it is your money on the line. That is why they don't chase after you.



I bet your parents would.



That dosen't make sense. You don't understand the meaning of holistic education.



Don't be so naive. I know a girl who wanted to do veterinary. She got 490 in the LC first time, went to Yeats and got 560 the second time. She lasted 2.5 months. She said there were words in the books she couldn't even pronounce let alone understand. She was really passionate about being a Vet until she started the course as well. She even told me how false going to Yeats was and how it was the biggest mistake she had ever made. The main function of Grind schools, as a private entity, is to make a profit. She is now training to be a teacher.



How do you know? You clearly have no self-belief. I hope you do not wish to become a doctor because Doctors need to have belief in their abilities. This is a worrying trend that students wish to "buy" their way into a course just as you do. I hope you don't regret these choices when you are up all night studying for college exams.

The full article that I quoted can be seen here:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/hanafins-school-of-thought-puts-emphasis-firmly-on-the-future-1275186.html

IOE provides home ec......Secularisation is only a good thing, so not having religion classes=a good thing , it takes away the holistic education for a year? Doubt that'd be detrimental.....

A grind school is completely different from a private school, in every way except fees. Grind School=Total Exam focus, Private=Fee Paying but has better facilities than public. In most private schools the teacher's salaries are paid by the department, in grind schools their salaries arent paid by the department of education because they are affiliated with it, the school just puts forward candidates for examination, allowing them to just have exam focus.(BTW This thread is not the place for chip on your shoulder rants about private education, saying private schools shouldnt get any funding, save it for another thread, Its not relevant)

Some people cant manage, but alot of people do manage to stay in courses like Med and Vet, its tough for everyone not just grind school students.

Delta Kilo

Home ec is an exam subject of course they are going to do it. We do food appreciation where we learn the basics of home ec but don't do the exam. We have a fully equipped kitchen in my school to cater for this extra-curricular subject. It is an all boys school. That is why Home ec is not a subject in my school, yet the school still provides the access to learn this important skill for life. This is an example of a holistic approach to education, not just gearing us up for exams.

I know this is off topic but so was the part time job thing which I didn't bring up and it is still all relevant to us Leaving Cert students so it dosen't really matter imo. It is kind of linked because it came up in an earlier post that people were willing to pay for grind schools yet not pay the College fees even though it was the College that would be providing the opportunity to ultimately get the job you want. So it is relevant.

RandomUserName, in your grind school if "You have to take charge of your own work" why can you not do this in an ordinary school? Why is the course you want to do only achievable in this school if all of the work is up to you?

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Delta Kilo wrote: »

Home ec is an exam subject of course they are going to do it. We do food appreciation where we learn the basics of home ec but don't do the exam. We have a fully equipped kitchen in my school to cater for this extra-curricular subject. It is an all boys school. That is why Home ec is not a subject in my school, yet the school still provides the access to learn this important skill for life. This is an example of a holistic approach to education, not just gearing us up for exams.

I know this is off topic but so was the part time job thing which I didn't bring up and it is still all relevant to us Leaving Cert students so it dosen't really matter imo. It is kind of linked because it came up in an earlier post that people were willing to pay for grind schools yet not pay the College fees even though it was the College that would be providing the opportunity to ultimately get the job you want. So it is relevant.

Its a 1 year course, is there really that much of a need to have a holistic education? The IOE (The grind school I know about/the most famous one) has a student welfare officer to make sure everyone is alright, they have sports facilities off site (Some near-ish sports centre), granted its not the most talked about/encourage aspect of the school, its still there.

I dont get his focus on the lack of a holistic education, its your leaving cert year, if your not the most amazing student, but you think you'd be a good doctor, the institute is the ideal solution, its not perfect, but if you were to put the work in, you'll the place.

Then one will ask, well why cant you do this in any school, some people dont have the required initiative, some can be overwhelmed by the amount you have learn because they dont really know what the HAVE to know. Some teachers are just awful.etc etc.

[Note: just to prove my point about, them never receiving money, a quote from a pamphlet that amusingly came in the door this morning: blah blah lots of student would never have gotten their 3rd level places with the tuition from the IOE. "And we have done all of this without taking a penny from the state or taking a penny from the tax payer"]

MrPain

I think if Batt O'Keefe introduces fees we should all vow to hunt him down and castrate him and place 'them' on a flag pole so little birds can eat them. And if that dosnt work we can throw shoes at him.;)

Brooke01

Just bring back the FEE'S and prevent further health spending cuts etc. And particularly give kids the help they need in special needs class’s at primary school teaching give them the fundamentals... it’s fair. People that do have health insurance are still losing out with health spending cuts. A reduction of breast cancer centres within Ireland...someone could died because of poor services being provide with a reduction in hospital spending. It has already happen to women with breast cancer and it can’t happen again.

Is a human life more important that you paying university fee’s ??

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Brooke01 wrote: »

Just bring back the FEE'S and prevent further health spending cuts etc. And particularly give kids the help they need in special needs class’s at primary school teaching give them the fundamentals... it’s fair. People that do have health insurance are still losing out with health spending cuts. A reduction of breast cancer centres within Ireland...someone could died because of poor services being provide with a reduction in hospital spending. It has already happen to women with breast cancer and it can’t happen again.

Is a human life more important that you paying university fee’s ??

Thats pointlessly sensationalist........

And I dont value human life a massive amount..............

Brooke01

Fad wrote: »

Thats pointlessly sensationalist........

And I dont value human life a massive amount..............

ok, but what about if your mom went for a cancer scrutinize and found out that she didn’t have cancer and 5 months later she was told that she had cancer all the time and she only had 2 weeks to live. It was an atrocious error that the hospital had made due to a major lack of funding. How would you feel if that was your mom that died from breast cancer??? What way would you feel if you mom was one of them people?? As a result in terrible errors that doctors have caused you still say its ok what the hospital done....even your mom was death. But you got to university without having to pay fees. You’re not living in a poor country. I don’t mind paying fee’s because my family will be able to afford them. Both of my parents pained for university fees when they were at college. Why should we get free university fee’s while England and n.ireland students pay fee’s

phasers

Brooke01 wrote: »

ok, but what about if your mom went for a cancer scrutinize and found out that she didn’t have cancer and 5 months later she was told that she had cancer all the time and she only had 2 weeks to live. How would you feel if that was your mom that died from breast cancer??? What way would you feel if you mom was one of them people?? As a result in terrible errors that doctors have caused you still say its ok what the hospital done....even your mom was death. But you got to university without having to pay fees. You’re not living in a poor country. I don’t mind paying fee’s because my family will be able to afford them. Both of my parents pained for university fees when they were at college. Why should we get free university fee’s while England and n.ireland students pay fee’s

Oh my god! Stop talking about people's mothers dying of cancer! There should not be a choice btween healthcare and education in the first place. Nobody should have to suffer because of the ridiculously firvolous nature our government has in relation to money.

In relation to the Bolded point: Well isn't that nice for you. As has been said many times in this thread a lot of people are stuck in the middle, unable to afford fees but just over the limits to qualify for financial assistance. Do they deserve to not get an education? What about the doctors that will treat the cancer-srticken mothers in the future? Do only rich people deserve to study medicine, an expensive, lengthy specialty which leaves no time to find work?

MrPain

phasers wrote: »

Oh my god! Stop talking about people's mothers dying of cancer! There should not be a choice btween healthcare and education in the first place. Nobody should have to suffer because of the ridiculously firvolous nature our government has in relation to money.

In relation to the Bolded point: Well isn't that nice for you. As has been said many times in this thread a lot of people are stuck in the middle, unable to afford fees but just over the limits to qualify for financial assistance. Do they deserve to not get an education? What about the doctors that will treat the cancer-srticken mothers in the future? Do only rich people deserve to study medicine, an expensive, lengthy specialty which leaves no time to find work?

Summed up my opinion perfectly.

Fad

Brooke01 wrote: »

Why should we get free university fee’s while England and n.ireland students pay fee’s

You're posts are filled with such ridiculous sensationalism, its like reading the Daily Mail, The Sun and The Star all at once!

Our health system isnt great, but its not that bad.

America pays college fees, look at their health system

[Relating to the quote] Because the government has provided this service for I dont know how long, and I dont think they should be able to withdraw it. I'm not really willing to get into my family's (current!) financial situation but my parents could probably (but tbh at the moment, barely) pay the fees, but why should they? Theyve been paying tax like everyone else, and anyone who had a child go through the system in the last few years didnt have to pay fees, why should they, who have been paying the same taxes, have to pay for such a privilege.

K4t

It would be morally wrong to introduce fees for a number of reasons: here is a few:

1. There is massive unemployment in the country and families are struggling to make end's meat as it is.

2. 17 and 18 year olds certainly didn't get the country into the mess that it's currently in, and their parents didn't either.

3. How is it fair to suddenly drop this bombshell on parents and students alike with no warning. Fees should be announced at least 4 or 5 years in advance of them being introduced so people can prepare for them by saving etc.

Mario007

K4t wrote: »

It would be morally wrong to introduce fees for a number of reasons: here is a few:

1. There is massive unemployment in the country and families are struggling to make end's meat as it is.

2. 17 and 18 year olds certainly didn't get the country into the mess that it's currently in, and their parents didn't either.

3. How is it fair to suddenly drop this bombshell on parents and students alike with no warning. Fees should be announced at least 4 or 5 years in advance of them being introduced so people can prepare for them by saving etc.

1.dude eight percent unemployment isnt massive...especially in a country with around 2.5 million people eligible for work...like yeah its bad but not massive by any means.

2. i agree we didn't get the country into this mess, but what about people that went to college did their three years or so, wasted money from the governement that our parents were paying in tax, just to get some a job stacking shelfs or something thats completely unrelated to the course they've studied? see college just seems almost like this regular thing to be going into after the leaving and that shouldnt be it.

3.its not fair, i agree...maybe a years notice would be nice but i think the best way to go around it would be to introduce maintenance loans like say in germany or england. it would actually provide people with the sense of commitment to go to college and it wouldnt cost the family anything more(provided of course that the repayment policies would be reasonable)

look i'm going to college myself this year and my family aren't exactly well off either but if we want our education to improve more money must be poured into it

Fad

Mario007 wrote: »

3.its not fair, i agree...maybe a years notice would be nice but i think the best way to go around it would be to introduce maintenance loans like say in germany or england. it would actually provide people with the sense of commitment to go to college and it wouldnt cost the family anything more(provided of course that the repayment policies would be reasonable)

Where is this money going to come from?
Banks probably wouldnt be too happy start giving any out at the moment.
Government is in deep enough shít as it is.
I'm committed to go to college, I dont see how paying will make me more so.

Mario007

Fad wrote: »

Where is this money going to come from?
Banks probably wouldnt be too happy start giving any out at the moment.
Government is in deep enough shít as it is.
I'm committed to go to college, I dont see how paying will make me more so.

well the money would have to come from the government, which really would mean no change at all right now, but in three or four years time that money will be starting to be repaid back and thats when it'll make a difference(i know its not ideal, but better than just busting a €5000 fee on the parents this or next september out of the sudden)
you might be committed but i know quite a lot of people that are filling out cao's just for the sake of not going to work in september...especially now with the recession...and lets be honest 190points for bar management isnt exactly unachievable

whadabouchasir

Fad wrote: »

The government are hardly in a position to be dolling out loans at the moment....

Giving out loans that wont start to be paid back for at least 3 or 4 years after theyre issued. Do we want a system like America with their crippling student loans? We could have a system like England's, but the government would probably manage to make a dogs arse of it!

I seem to recall that the government gave the banks a 7 billion euro loan recently. Also on your point of the crippling repayments, they should be intrest free,this way the govenment would lose nothing but the education system would improve, thereby attracting investors.

Fad

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I seem to recall that the government gave the banks a 7 billion euro loan recently. Also on your point of the crippling repayments, they should be intrest free,this way the govenment would lose nothing but the education system would improve, thereby attracting investors.

That 7 billion euro was to ya know, stop the economy completely collapsing.


I really dont get how it would improve, it would be substituting a government contribution with a student one. I really dont get how that could improve the education system.

Also have actually heard anything about the government we have now? You think the loans system would actually work, mildly foolish to be so presumptuous..............

lou91

Delta Kilo wrote: »

A holistic education is where the school endeavours to provide the students a chance to explore as many areas as possible so as to become a "rounded individual" and also cater for everybodys interests and talents, not just the academic aspect of school. Examples of this are schools placing an emphasis on sports, religion classes where you learn moral values, in my school we are taught how to cook and manage a home (all boys school, Home ec not on curriculum) etc.

Yeah. At 18, I've shockingly managed to develop moral values myself without wasting hours of my time.

You can't possibly believe that it's possible to do well in any school. To get a decent Leaving Cert, you have to do some subjects that you simply need a good teacher for. All depending on the individual of course, but I'd take maths as the best example. The fact that the teachers here effectively teach the entire course in 8 months show how incompetent others are, who can't do it in two years. You can talk all you want about taking shortcuts, but I don't know how you can fake C parts in Maths or stuff like that.

Teachers sometimes have their own correctors because it wouldn't be physically possible to do it all themselves. I'd trust an undergrad more than a lot of state school teachers. The undergrad would be fired if they didn't do a good job. Unlike the state school teacher...

Why am I naive to think that I wont dropout?? My course has no special requirements at all, so everybody is starting from scratch. I happen to have quite a lot of self belief thanks, and I know I'm going to do great in my course if I get it. The leaving cert is not about natural intelligence. At all. It's about applying yourself and picking up vast amounts of knowledge that won't be applicable to you come July. Sad, but true. I'm not buying my way in, I'm making the best of a bad situation.

The point is, the assumptions made about grind school students are completely off. A lot will be hurt just as bad if fees come back in.

Delta Kilo

RandomUserName! wrote: »

You can't possibly believe that it's possible to do well in any school. To get a decent Leaving Cert, you have to do some subjects that you simply need a good teacher for.

In your last post you said that: "In places like the institute you're thrown into a year of 1000 people, given no individual attention unless you seek it out, and are absolutely in control of what you do. You don't do your homework or study, nobody cares. The teachers don't have time to be chasing after people, like they do in public schools."

This contradicts what you are now saying. You say that they are all brilliant teachers that are able to teach a 2 year course in 8 months but here you say that it is all up to you. I mean, which is it like, make your mind up.

I can guarantee you that almost all of the teachers in the institute are there because they could not get a post in a state school, probably due to a lack of vacancies rather than their abilities though, I will admit. They would much prefer the comfort and security of being employed by the government rather than being under pressure from a boss to achieve high results. Don't forget that all these Grind Schools want is profit, not the idea that they are creating the future doctors in society. They only want you to do well so they can put your photo in the ad for next years prospective students, not so that you can do what you want. The teachers there are taught how to teach in the same place that a teacher in a state school has. In fact a previous poster said that a lot of Grind School teachers are unqualified.

Just because teachers in state schools don't teach a 2 year course, as in the course is DESIGNED to take 2 years does not mean that they are incompetent teachers. The reason they use the 2 years is so that they cater for EVERYBODYS' capabilities. They have to put up with the odd disruptive student as it is a state school and they must also cater for those students abilities. In fact, I would say they are more competent because lots of people DO very well in state schools. My English teacher, last year, got 6 A1s, 3 A2s, 5 B1s and 4 B3s out of her class. I wouldn't class her as being incompetent.

I'd trust an undergrad more than a lot of state school teachers.

Really? I wouldn't. They have no interaction with the student. They are like the mock correctors. They don't know anything about how you are learning the subject and therefore will not be able to give you constructive criticism. It should be your teacher correcting but as you said earlier you dont get any individual attention.

The leaving cert is not about natural intelligence. At all. It's about applying yourself and picking up vast amounts of knowledge that won't be applicable to you come July

I never said that the Leaving Cert was about natural intelligence. I said that some of the courses in 3rd level require "natural" intelligence. Like the example I gave of the girl not being able to even pronounce some of the words in the veterinary course. She went to the grind school to pick up the vast amounts of knowledge that she would never need again and succeeded. But, this did not prepare her for the course. She even said it herself that it was just giving her a false sense of hope and that she should never have done veterinary. Please don't miss-quote me.

The Grind Schools are masters at preparing students for exams. I presume you are getting loads of sample answers and learning them off. The department are trying to combat this by putting twists in the Questions that mean you have to think and plan out your own answer on the day. An example of this is English paper 2 where in the comparative they brought characters into the theme and issue question. They want you to think, not just write down what you have learned off. (Our English teacher told us this, who happens to be a Chief Leaving Cert English corrector)

If that course is what you really want to do then by all means go for it. Just don't expect that the institute has prepared you for it.

Delta Kilo

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I seem to recall that the government gave the banks a 7 billion euro loan recently. Also on your point of the crippling repayments, they should be intrest free,this way the govenment would lose nothing but the education system would improve, thereby attracting investors.

That seven billion was given to the banks so that they could give loans to small businesses and earn back interest on them so as to get the banks and subsequently the economy going again. It was not intended to be given away at 0% interest to students who wouldn't be paying it back for 4/5 years. Thats the last thing the banks need at the minute.