Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe?

hedgeh0g

nesf wrote: »

The money was ploughed into roads, the health services and other projects that the people demanded. Look at the budgets for the past decade and the changing totals for the departments. The money was going in there all right.

We've also not got a 2nd World IT infrastructure, look at broadband penetration in Russia if you want to see what a 2nd world IT infrastructure actually looks like and if you think we've a 3rd World Health service then you know nothing of the misery in the 3rd World in this context. Not that I actually like the state of either in our country at the moment or anything.

Roads - how much per mile were we paying compared to other countries?
Ive heard we were being way overcharged.

gearoidc

Sure...they'll get the blame when it all goes south. Then someone else might get into power while things are crap, and once they're good again.....we're back to square one. We'll vote for whoever buys the election the best, rather than voting for who offers the country a path thats less prosperous for the individual in the short run, but also more stable.

Hence, we end up with the situation where they're all as bad as each other - the reason often given for voting for the usual suspects. At least its the devil we know, right?

But we're not to blame. At all.

Can't say I disagree with any of that.
Politics, unfortunately, is what it is and for my way of thinking there is nothing more shifty and disingenuous - not to mention cunning and devious;) -than the true political animal.

And we're now looking to these people to lead us out of Egypt.
May God have mercy on us.

nesf

hedgeh0g wrote: »

Roads - how much per mile were we paying compared to other countries?
Ive heard we were being way overcharged.

Couldn't give you the figure but it was most certainly very high. Though, to be fair the cost of road construction rose all over Europe I think (I could be wrong).

gearoidc

The bubble burst... the electorate wants to blame anyone except themselves for their current situation

I am paying the price and I blame myself for my poor choices..

I blame the government and banks for the ruinous decisions they made.
I want them to pay the price too.
Simple enough, innit?

nesf

gearoidc wrote: »

I am paying the price and I blame myself for my poor choices..

I blame the government and banks for the ruinous decisions they made.
I want them to pay the price too.
Simple enough, innit?

You're unusual from the looks of things.

gurramok

nesf wrote: »

One thing I'm sick of at the moment is how everyone wants to lump responsibility for this onto the politicians, the bankers et al. If you look back at public opinion over the boom years you will not find much that spoke of fiscal restraint or the need to limit spending and use the revenue to build up reserves to get us through the next downturn. As far as I'm concerned we all (and I include myself in this) did not do enough to encourage reasonable spending during the boom years.

Yes, and it should not be read that I think we all share the blame equally, only that we are reaping what we sowed during the boom years.

Problem is that the the ordinary Joe and Jane do not have the professional expertise to know how the economy and financial matters work.

They expect our leaders, our bankers, people who are more educated than us to know better than to lead us into a financial hole. Thats why there is anger. Ordinary Joe and Jane were to blame too for human greed, but they have an excuse called lack of education on financial matters, our leaders or professional banking class didn't show that.

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

Problem is that the the ordinary Joe and Jane do not have the professional expertise to know how the economy and financial matters work.

They expect our leaders, our bankers, people who are more educated than us to know better than to lead us into a financial hole. Thats why there is anger. Ordinary Joe and Jane were to blame too for human greed, but they have an excuse called lack of education on financial matters, our leaders or professional banking class didn't show that.

Ignorance is no excuse in my opinion.

gurramok

nesf wrote: »

Ignorance is no excuse in my opinion.

I agree with this for the individual(Joe&Jane) as per my post.

This is not an excuse for those who run the banks as you know, they are supposed to be qualified in their fields but have woefully failed.

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

This is not an excuse for those who run the banks as you know, they are supposed to be qualified in their fields but have woefully failed.

I agree.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Joey the lips

No its just we have the most incomp goverment who got into power by the failure of the vast numbers on incomp people to vote

Raiser

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe, or just the most incompetent country in Western Europe?

No I think Bolivia is probably a little worse - Doh!!! Fcuking Irish educational system

ejmaztec

If the government were anywhere near competent, the rest of the world would have been so impressed after the latest bank bail-out, that AIB and BOI's shares would have at least doubled their value yesterday.

Needless to say, the share values dropped even lower than their value the day before.

The only upside will be that Ireland will soon have a minimal carbon footprint. Perhaps the Greens have more influence than we thought.

Paddy Samurai

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe?

No ,apparently Albania is worse than us!.:cool:

anonymous_joe

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe, or just the most incompetent country in Western Europe?

What a ludicrous question.

I appreciate stength of feeling at the moment, but come on.

First things first, how do we judge this?

Secondly - Spain's economy is worse than ours, Italy is a country that's been a corrupt and incompetent joke since it's formation, Germany's got a history of corruption etc swept under the carpet, and has plenty of social problems that have long been ignored.

Our government is not doing well but they're the government we the people voted in (well I didn't, I voted for someone else). Just because you're familiar with our government don't assume they're the worst. Everyone has problems, and they've all been exacerbated by the financial crisis.

I'll ask another question - did you give a fúck before the economic slowdown?

petergdub

> Also, I find it difficult to believe that Brian Lenihan would be able to keep his job if it were a different European country.

Erm, it was a 720 page document.
Apparently the 5th draft of said document.
A detail on one page of it and apparently it required detailed explanation by an expert.

Whatever about an official being to blame are you seriously blaming Lenihan for missing that ?

ejmaztec

petergdub wrote: »

> Also, I find it difficult to believe that Brian Lenihan would be able to keep his job if it were a different European country.

Erm, it was a 720 page document.
Apparently the 5th draft of said document.
A detail on one page of it and apparently it required detailed explanation by an expert.

Whatever about an official being to blame are you seriously blaming Lenihan for missing that ?

I would expect a Minister for Finance to be the expert.

nesf

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would expect a Minister for Finance to be the expert.

You expect the people to be able to elect even one competent expert in financial matters to what will be the ruling party?


Edit:

Bluntly we have a Department of Finance so they can take out the big colouring book and a bunch of crayons and explain to whatever gombeen they get stuck with what the situation is. If it is true that he didn't read this and that it wasn't brought to his attention then the buck stops with the Department to be honest. This should have been brought to his attention by his staff.

ejmaztec

nesf wrote: »

You expect the people to be able to elect even one competent expert in financial matters to what will be the ruling party?

Unfortunately no.

It seems that the voters believe that those elected know everything that there is to know - about anything.

Has any candidate ever said "vote for me, I'm an economist!"?


.....oh and I see that AIB's shares have now dropped to 78c.

anonymous_joe

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would expect a Minister for Finance to be the expert.

Ehm...

Why?

Politicians by and large are just that politicians. That's their career, and often enough has been for most of their career. Ergo, they cannot be an expert in such a field.

nesf wrote: »

You expect the people to be able to elect even one competent expert in financial matters to what will be the ruling party?


Edit:

Bluntly we have a Department of Finance so they can take out the big colouring book and a bunch of crayons and explain to whatever gombeen they get stuck with what the situation is. If it is true that he didn't read this and that it wasn't brought to his attention then the buck stops with the Department to be honest. This should have been brought to his attention by his staff.

The entire point of civil servants is that they bring these things to people's attention. End of story.

I've no idea the exact details of this crisis, but if I was given a 720 page book to read, and missed a detail on one page, I wouldn't be too surprised, given the human capacity for mistakes.

Our civil service has dropped the ball here.

ejmaztec

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ehm...

Why?

Politicians by and large are just that politicians. That's their career, and often enough has been for most of their career. Ergo, they cannot be an expert in such a field.


The entire point of civil servants is that they bring these things to people's attention. End of story.

I've no idea the exact details of this crisis, but if I was given a 720 page book to read, and missed a detail on one page, I wouldn't be too surprised, given the human capacity for mistakes.

Our civil service has dropped the ball here.

If you don't expect much, you don't get much. I expect politicians to be more than capable of carrying out the jobs that they are vastly overpaid to do. If a particular government department screws up for a ridiculous reason, then the selection process for those departments is seriously flawed.

Everybody knows where the buck stops.

Dannyboy83

anonymous_joe wrote: »

What a ludicrous question.

I appreciate stength of feeling at the moment, but come on.

First things first, how do we judge this?

Secondly - Spain's economy is worse than ours, Italy is a country that's been a corrupt and incompetent joke since it's formation, Germany's got a history of corruption etc swept under the carpet, and has plenty of social problems that have long been ignored.

Our government is not doing well but they're the government we the people voted in (well I didn't, I voted for someone else). Just because you're familiar with our government don't assume they're the worst. Everyone has problems, and they've all been exacerbated by the financial crisis.

I'll ask another question - did you give a fúck before the economic slowdown?

I'll be honest, I didn't give a fcuk before 2004.

What happened in 2004 you ask?

I graduated after 4 years of university, it dawned on me that I had missed the boat and wouldn't be able to afford to buy a house.
I didn't realise the extent of the corruption and nepotisim in this country until I started to look at what was going on.

2005, I started to give a fcuk even more, when a lot of friends lost jobs at Pfizer and the word on the street was that Dell were packing up and moving to Poland.
I was accepted for a job in Motorola but then they also went under.


Look, let me put it to you like this.
I work in computers, if I cannot do my job or I'm incompetent, then I get the sack.
If I abused my (hypothetical) expense account, then I get the sack.

Why should be any different for a government minister?
Is it really too much to ask that the people in the top echelons are qualified to do their jobs?
Would I be hired for a job in computers if my skill base was in law?

I don't understand why there is a Bermuda Triangle of fallacy and irrationality surrounding politics in this country.


Most of our entrepreneurs and businessmen clearly understand these things.
So why can a minister not understand it?

Dannyboy83

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ehm...

Why?

Politicians by and large are just that politicians. That's their career, and often enough has been for most of their career. Ergo, they cannot be an expert in such a field.


The entire point of civil servants is that they bring these things to people's attention. End of story.

I've no idea the exact details of this crisis, but if I was given a 720 page book to read, and missed a detail on one page, I wouldn't be too surprised, given the human capacity for mistakes.

Our civil service has dropped the ball here.

If you're refering to the Anglo Irish (Enron) scandal, which was on Bloomberg today btw, then it was a 120 page report, and your explanation is absolutely comical.

If it were a report on the amount of cows in Meath, I wouldn't be bothered.
But this has utterly destroyed Ireland's financial reputation across the globe.

The summary on Bloomberg today was:
Ireland - another day, another scandal

BroomBurner

nesf wrote: »

This should have been brought to his attention by his staff.

How do you know that they didn't? Politicians can be fairly good liars, they're well trained in covering their asses when necessary.

EDIT: Also, any Minister is first at the post to take any glory going when it may have come from a senior civil servant or consultant. They do not, however, accept any reposibility for things they've done wrong.
Maybe if they did, they would get a bit more respect.

fuzzy dunlop

Interesting thread and the answer is unequivocally no?

I saw an interview with Ulick McEvaddy before and he had an interesting comment about corruption in Ireland .It went something along the lines of “ There is more corruption in a small corner in France or Italy then in the whole of Ireland.” The same guy is a well known supporter of FG in case there is any illusions that he is defending FF

Spain, Portugal and Belgium are in the same league. Britain and the US is only marginally better. Japan and the Eastern European countries are far worse. India, China and Russia is the premier league as far as corruption goes The only countries better are maybe Scandinavian ones. Sad but true.

As far as competence goes I was watching Question time on BBC 1 last night and it was unbelievable at how identical the questions and responses were to similar ones on Q&A on RTE. Looking at our country in Isolation one would think that we are an incompetent race but you have to see what is going on elsewhere.

Take our nearest neighbor for example

For example PPARS.I believe there is a similar problem in the UK and extraordinarily it has cost 2 billion sterling so far. Then there is the issue of accountability. Just look at how many political comebacks someone like Peter Mandelsohn has made.

Berlusconi –On the verge of doing clink when he lost the Italian elections. The new Italian government lasted five minutes and lo and behold Berluscomi was back again.

I also agree wholeheartedly that we brought this on ourselves. You can go on about leadership but when somebody shows proper leadership in a manifesto they don’t get elected.

When I started working where I am now (10 years ago) issues like Global warming were well to the fore. Yet I was laughed at and looked down on because I got a bus into work FFS! This was by the best and brightest of our third level educated people in the IT sector. Likewise I hear people bemoaning the state of public transport and the state of water yet they think they have a God given right to live in an 1800 sq. ft house anywhere they want. And this sums up the problem. Everyone thinks somebody else should be making the sacrifices!

anonymous_joe

ejmaztec wrote: »

If you don't expect much, you don't get much. I expect politicians to be more than capable of carrying out the jobs that they are vastly overpaid to do. If a particular government department screws up for a ridiculous reason, then the selection process for those departments is seriously flawed.

Everybody knows where the buck stops.

Oh I fully agree the selection policy is fúcked. Why else was a barrister moved from Justice to Finance?

And Politicians are not vastly paid. The individuals might not be, but the salary's not fantastic in contrast to equivalent private sector jobs.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'll be honest, I didn't give a fcuk before 2004.

What happened in 2004 you ask?

I graduated after 4 years of university, it dawned on me that I had missed the boat and wouldn't be able to afford to buy a house.
I didn't realise the extent of the corruption and nepotisim in this country until I started to look at what was going on.

2005, I started to give a fcuk even more, when a lot of friends lost jobs at Pfizer and the word on the street was that Dell were packing up and moving to Poland.
I was accepted for a job in Motorola but then they also went under.


Look, let me put it to you like this.
I work in computers, if I cannot do my job or I'm incompetent, then I get the sack.
If I abused my (hypothetical) expense account, then I get the sack.

Why should be any different for a government minister?
Is it really too much to ask that the people in the top echelons are qualified to do their jobs?
Would I be hired for a job in computers if my skill base was in law?

I don't understand why there is a Bermuda Triangle of fallacy and irrationality surrounding politics in this country.


Most of our entrepreneurs and businessmen clearly understand these things.
So why can a minister not understand it?

Because politics is about getting elected. Say nasty things and no-one will vote for you. (Michael McDowell anyone?)

I noticed that FG have claimed they'll never introduce fees to third level. They would, being in opposition. A government gets in by making promises, not by displaying competence.

That's a flawed system, and no-one doubts it, but the problem is twofold:

It's how our democracy works.

It's never been tested like this before - this financial crisis is globabl and unprecedented based on a total loss of faith in the global banking system.

There was in this country a loss of jobs (DELL, Pfizer, etc) caused by lower wages elsewhere. That's economics and unfortunately, unavoidable. Would you staff a company you ran for €3 an hour or €10?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you're refering to the Anglo Irish (Enron) scandal, which was on Bloomberg today btw, then it was a 120 page report, and your explanation is absolutely comical.

If it were a report on the amount of cows in Meath, I wouldn't be bothered.
But this has utterly destroyed Ireland's financial reputation across the globe.

The summary on Bloomberg today was:
Ireland - another day, another scandal

I've no idea how long it is. Nor is it comical.

Every report I've ever read has repeated the facts umpteen times. A long report with this detail mentioned once (if it was more than once I take this back, I'm only going on what I read, I'm open to correction) which deals with a subject matter I'm not an expert in... Would you really be surprised by a mistake? Let's put it another way, if an accountant had missed a legal point on one individual page of a 200 page legal document, would it shock and amaze you?

The wrong man was in the job - that's not his fault.

And has been said elsewhere, is Ireland the most incompetent in Europe? Hell no. We can bitch now, but as was mentioned before, put on newsnight on BBC. The questions are identical as are the issues. Look at Iceland too, we're suffering, because the world is, and it could be worse. Thank God we're not Spanish after all. They too relied on their construction industry, more than us, and it's in worse trouble. We're not as incompetent as some.

ejmaztec

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Oh I fully agree the selection policy is fúcked. Why else was a barrister moved from Justice to Finance?

And Politicians are not vastly paid. The individuals might not be, but the salary's not fantastic in contrast to equivalent private sector jobs.

That's the same with politicians worldwide but, as has been pointed out several times on this forum, Irish politicians are paid more than their foreign counterparts - which is ludicrous given their level of ineptitude.

Most ministers make up for any income shortfall during their political careers by earning substantial amounts afterwards, through directorships, lecture tours etc etc.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

And has been said elsewhere, is Ireland the most incompetent in Europe? Hell no. We can bitch now, but as was mentioned before, put on newsnight on BBC. The questions are identical as are the issues. Look at Iceland too, we're suffering, because the world is, and it could be worse. Thank God we're not Spanish after all. They too relied on their construction industry, more than us, and it's in worse trouble. We're not as incompetent as some.

Any country, especially an isolated island, on the extremities of Europe has a hard job on it's hands trying to get foreign investors to ignore the hurdles separating it from where the action is. It will be an even harder job were Ireland to have an even more tarnished reputation than it has now.

Iceland may recover when the EU has grabbed all of their fishing rights.

It will be easier for the other incompetent countries to recover, given that they are not as isolated as us.

nesf

BroomBurner wrote: »

How do you know that they didn't? Politicians can be fairly good liars, they're well trained in covering their asses when necessary.

Seriously, I don't think I could have been clearer with my post:

If it is true that he didn't read this and that it wasn't brought to his attention then the buck stops with the Department to be honest. This should have been brought to his attention by his staff.

You're seeing public sector bashing where there isn't any mate.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Seriously, I don't think I could have been clearer with my post:




You're seeing public sector bashing where there isn't any mate.

Your reply is illogical.

Here are the facts:

There was an unprecedented Irish financial scandal at the most vulnerable Irish financial institution the midst of an unprecedented global financial crisis.

There was a report concerning said institution.

Either someone was incompetent in the most fraudulent financial case in Irish economic history, or someone is lying in an attempt to cover it up.

CASE A
If someone was incompetent:
It was a member of the department (or)
It was the minister

In case A, said person should be sacked for gross incompetence

CASE B
If someone was lying:
It was a member of the department lied (or)
It was the minister

In case B, said person should be sacked for lying/fraud


I do not accept that someone 'missed' this "detail". I find it beyond the bounds of possibility in fact.

In the parallell universe where that may have occurred, the department urgently need to be re-organised and shown how procedures operate in the most basic clerical and administrative systems such as a library.

Frankly, I don't consider that the public servants are incompetent at all, only the political leaders.
I don't give any consideration to the theory that this detail was missed.
I believe it was highlighted to the minister.
The decision was taken to lie to the public about it.

What I don't know is how this detail was "re-discovered".
I presume it was leaked to the public.
That is what is far more worrying.
If Brian Cowen and Brain Lenihan still cannot get it together to come forward to the public after said scandal has been uncovered, that means this is just the tip of the titanic sinking iceberg.

Bear in mind that Bank of Ireland upgraded their toxic debt from 3Billion upwards of 6 Billion the following morning.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

The money was ploughed into roads, the health services and other projects that the people demanded. Look at the budgets for the past decade and the changing totals for the departments. The money was going in there all right.

We've also not got a 2nd World IT infrastructure, look at broadband penetration in Russia if you want to see what a 2nd world IT infrastructure actually looks like and if you think we've a 3rd World Health service then you know nothing of the misery in the 3rd World in this context. Not that I actually like the state of either in our country at the moment or anything.

Do you speak Russian?
Have you been to Russia?
Have you ever travelled to Eastern Europe?

I'm not sure where Irish people get these ideas.

My ex-girlfriend was Polish. I speak Polish.
I've visited the country numerous times.
Back in 2004, you could get a 6mb connection in central poland (rural territory adjacent to Poznan) for 40 zloty per month.

My current girlfriend is ethnic Russian from Lithuania. I speak Russian.
I've visisted the country numerous times.
Last September, her sister had an 8mb connection for 60lits per month.

Take a stroll around Warsaw and stare at the skyscrapers or the palas kulturysta.
Take a drive in Vilnius and have a look at motorway system or the infrastructure in the new city.
I promise you, if you do this, you'll understand that Ireland is just a village by comparison.

I'm currently living in a commuter town 30km west of Cork city.
I cannot get internet in my town. Last estimation I was given was a 6 week waiting period.

===

Regarding the health service, my girlfriend had to go home to discover what was actually wrong with her as the Irish doctors just shrugged their shoulders and prescribed a battery of antibiotics.
2 hours in a private clinic at home and she knew the facts.

I've been to the dentist in Poland, and honestly, I would go there any day over Ireland.

==

Ireland's strength is her people. I could never happily live anywhere else.
We have among the best educated and friendly people in Europe.
I've never seen a level of entrepeneurialisim like I've seen in Ireland.

Its not fair that we should have to suffer under a political system like the one we have.

We are throwing our future and our children's future away by continuining to accept these political cowboys.