Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe?

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you speak Russian?
Have you been to Russia?
Have you ever travelled to Eastern Europe?

I'm not sure where Irish people get these ideas.

My ex-girlfriend was Polish. I speak Polish.
I've visited the country numerous times.
Back in 2004, you could get a 6mb connection in central poland (rural territory adjacent to Poznan) for 40 zloty per month.

My current girlfriend is ethnic Russian from Lithuania. I speak Russian.
I've visisted the country numerous times.
Last September, her sister had an 8mb connection for 60lits per month.

Take a stroll around Warsaw and stare at the skyscrapers or the palas kulturysta.
Take a drive in Vilnius and have a look at motorway system or the infrastructure in the new city.
I promise you, if you do this, you'll understand that Ireland is just a village by comparison.

What the hell would broadband availability in Lithuania or Poland have to do with broadband penetration in Russia? They have 0.099 lines per 10 people (1 in a 100 people have access) in Russia versus approx. 1.4 per 10 people here (we're equivalent to France iirc). Figures from: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/int_bro_acc_percap-internet-broadband-access-per-capita

We've ****ty coverage in this country in many rural areas, mostly down to having a very low population density, a monopoly in control of an ageing copper network that was never designed with ADSL in mind. We're still a hell of a lot better off than most Second World countries.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Regarding the health service, my girlfriend had to go home to discover what was actually wrong with her as the Irish doctors just shrugged their shoulders and prescribed a battery of antibiotics.
2 hours in a private clinic at home and she knew the facts.

I've been to the dentist in Poland, and honestly, I would go there any day over Ireland.

Poland is a Third World country now?


Of course there are countries that have better health systems and of course there are countries which have far better broadband services but hyperbole like "we have a Third World health system" is neither useful nor informed and frankly trivialises the problems that exist in genuinely ****ed over regions of the world. I don't like our Health System and could rant for hours about what I don't like about it but I guarantee you the people in Zimbawee etc would jump at the chance if we offered to swap Health Services with them.

Dannyboy83

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Oh I fully agree the selection policy is fúcked. Why else was a barrister moved from Justice to Finance?

Well then we agree.
Why can we not appoint an economist or at the very least somebody who has run their own business and understands the basics of these matters?
This infuriates me

And Politicians are not vastly paid. The individuals might not be, but the salary's not fantastic in contrast to equivalent private sector jobs.

I disagree.
Brian Cowen earns more money than President Barrack Obama of the United States.
They are substantially better paid than their equivalents throughout the globe.

And the manner in which they are squandering public funds (Willie o'Dea 164,000 flights to Texas being just one example) is making my blood itch.
It would be infuriating enough if this were during an economic boom.
But the fact that its being continued during economic collapse!?

How will the public react when we default?

However, you do raise a very valid point.
I'm of the opinion that the amount of TDs should be halved and the pay should be doubled.
We should invite the most qualified candidates from all over the globe to compete for the position, just as would be done in a normal private company.

Because politics is about getting elected. Say nasty things and no-one will vote for you. (Michael McDowell anyone?)

I'm not asking for dirt.
I'm not launching a personal attack on Brian Lenihan either.
I know nothing of him and 've nothing personal against him.

I'm just astounded that the man still has his job.
In fact, I'm astounded that he had the job to begin with.
Why not just give Timmy O'Toole the job?
Hes trapped down a well, the poor bugger.

I noticed that FG have claimed they'll never introduce fees to third level. They would, being in opposition. A government gets in by making promises, not by displaying competence.

That's a flawed system, and no-one doubts it, but the problem is twofold:

I agree with you on both points.
Our system drastically needs reform.
There should be pre-requisites for positions.

It's never been tested like this before - this financial crisis is globabl and unprecedented based on a total loss of faith in the global banking system.

And this is precisely my point.
This is unprecedented, unchartered territory.Ministers, Juniors ministers, civil servants..........everyone in the firing line would clinging to that report.

Otherwise, its a clear display that this government have been in power too long. Not that there are any enviable alternatives in the present system.

There was in this country a loss of jobs (DELL, Pfizer, etc) caused by lower wages elsewhere. That's economics and unfortunately, unavoidable. Would you staff a company you ran for €3 an hour or €10?

Not that simple, although inevitable in the case of low skilled/low paid manufacturing and also compounds another point.
By reintroducing third level fees, we're growing an unskilled workforce who will sit on the dole or emigrate.
Patom, irlandski ludzie bedzie uczyc jak movic po polsku

Every report I've ever read has repeated the facts umpteen times. A long report with this detail mentioned once (if it was more than once I take this back, I'm only going on what I read, I'm open to correction) which deals with a subject matter I'm not an expert in... Would you really be surprised by a mistake? Let's put it another way, if an accountant had missed a legal point on one individual page of a 200 page legal document, would it shock and amaze you?

I think I've made the point enough, I'm sure you're sick of hearing it.
Since you don't understand it, let me put it in context for you.
Anglo Irish are the equivalent of Enron
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-774140110628150584&ei=iAWWSayEFaeo2wLr3qCYDw&q=enron

We are the laughing stock of Europe.
I've had friends from Canada, the States, Australia calling me on Skype.
We are getting world wide exposure.

The wrong man was in the job - that's not his fault.

Erm......no, its clearly his fault.
If it was his mistake, then its his fault.
You don't need an encomic background to understand a financial report.
But its done now.

Impeach him/sack him, whatever.
Appoint someone who is up to the job.

And has been said elsewhere, is Ireland the most incompetent in Europe? Hell no. We can bitch now, but as was mentioned before, put on newsnight on BBC. The questions are identical as are the issues. Look at Iceland too, we're suffering, because the world is, and it could be worse. Thank God we're not Spanish after all. They too relied on their construction industry, more than us, and it's in worse trouble. We're not as incompetent as some.

Well, first, there is no comparable fraud at the present time in Europe.
Second, when Enron occured in the States, there was a federal investigation prior to jail sentences.
Do you know what happened to Blagojevich?

With regard to the UK, you're not comparing like for like.
The United Kingdom is a colossal machine in comparison to Ireland.
There is no comparison between the work load of Alistar Darling and Brian Lenihan.

Unquestionably, we are suffering because the world is.
The external factors are beyond our control.
The point is that there are plenty of internal factors within our control which are being flagrantly flaunted.

We entered this depression in a substantially stronger position than other countries, with a small defecit.
The true picture may be distorted - to what degree, we don't know, because our government won't disclose it.
At present, it looks like there has been no legitimate economic boom since 2004/2005, there has simply been a colossal national overdraft.

Unless I'm mistaken we're about the only European nation doing the exact opposite of Kensyian recommendations - we are cutting spending, increasing taxes and pouring phosphorus on the economic fire.

Simplicius

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe, or just the most incompetent country in Western Europe?

Sadly my proud Irish views have changed after living elsewhere in Europe for many a year and now with a current Polish Partner - who claims Ireland is in the middle ages .. I have to agree that we are the most incompotent country in the EU.

We are nothing but a Bannana Republic with a Geographic displacement Issue, this BS we are getting now is common in Africa. That is where this "nation state" should be... Africa.. we are no better than some corrupt little tim pot democracy

schween

nesf wrote: »

What the hell would broadband availability in Lithuania or Poland have to do with broadband penetration in Russia? They have 0.099 lines per 10 people (1 in a 100 people have access) in Russia versus approx. 1.4 per 10 people here (we're equivalent to France iirc). Figures from: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/int_bro_acc_percap-internet-broadband-access-per-capita

We've ****ty coverage in this country in many rural areas, mostly down to having a very low population density, a monopoly in control of an ageing copper network that was never designed with ADSL in mind. We're still a hell of a lot better off than most Second World countries.




Poland is a Third World country now?


Of course there are countries that have better health systems and of course there are countries which have far better broadband services but hyperbole like "we have a Third World health system" is neither useful nor informed and frankly trivialises the problems that exist in genuinely ****ed over regions of the world. I don't like our Health System and could rant for hours about what I don't like about it but I guarantee you the people in Zimbawee etc would jump at the chance if we offered to swap Health Services with them.

I completely agree. I think it's incredibly ignorant of the plight suffered by billions to make comparisons like that.

As for the most incompetent country in Europe...we're far too complacent and we put up with way too much s**t.
How come other countries mobilize with huge strikes and protests if they're unhappy but here we just put up with it?

nesf

schween wrote: »

As for the most incompetent country in Europe...we're far too complacent and we put up with way too much s**t.
How come other countries mobilize with huge strikes and protests if they're unhappy but here we just put up with it?

Italian politics make me grimace a bit. Romania's got some serious corruption problems from what I've read (which honestly isn't much). France has problems, unemployment aggravated by labour law. Germany is better run than here in my opinion. Ditto with all the Scandinavian countries, except Finland which I don't know much about. Spain has economic problems but on balance seems to be better run, they kept excellent control of their banking sector despite a property bubble. The Low Countries all seem interesting, I want the Dutch Health system. Haven't really looked much at the rest bar the odd article on the Polish Twins relationship with the EU and such.

Apologies to any natives of the countries above whose country I've horribly overgeneralised and summed up in a glib one line answer which lacks any depth or real analysis.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

What the hell would broadband availability in Lithuania or Poland have to do with broadband penetration in Russia?

The are/were ranked as 2nd world countries, you said that Ireland has it better than 2nd world countries.
Clearly not.

The comparison of Russia and Ireland is grossly unfair on everything from population density to economic prosperity.
Lithuania has a similar landmass, similar size population.
Its a more relevant comparison.

They have 0.099 lines per 10 people (1 in a 100 people have access) in Russia versus approx. 1.4 per 10 people here (we're equivalent to France iirc). Figures from: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/int_bro_acc_percap-internet-broadband-access-per-capita

That is a blind study
Please, compare population densities in Russia with Ireland.
Need I remind you that 1/3 of the population lives around 1 area
Approx 1/7th around the other

Russia has a population of approx 150million
Ireland has a population of approx 3.5 million

In reference to my original point, please refer to the following links:
http://www.aneki.com/richest.html (Ireland 5th richest in world)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
(Ireland coming in @ 7, Russia coming in @ 53)

You are comparing apples and oranges, none the less, Russia performance in your comparisson outranks Ireland.

We've ****ty coverage in this country in many rural areas, mostly down to having a very low population density,

Open Google maps
Search for:
Excalve of the Russian Federation, Kaliningrad
Moscow
St.Petersburg
Volvograd

The point you are using to justify our pathetic broadband penetration is infinitely more applicable to the largest country in history, i.e Russia

a monopoly in control of an ageing copper network that was never designed with ADSL in mind.

What network was designed with ADSL in mind?
You have to upgrade infrastructure.
When you have money.

Did you forget my original point?

(on a side note, why was the infrastructure ever given away to begin with - telecom eireann were sold, not the infrastructure)

We're still a hell of a lot better off than most Second World countries.

What other country holds the HQ of so many of the leading players in the IT industry?

Of course there are countries that have better health systems and of course there are countries which have far better broadband services but hyperbole like "we have a Third World health system" is neither useful nor informed and frankly trivialises the problems that exist in genuinely ****ed over regions of the world. I don't like our Health System and could rant for hours about what I don't like about it but I guarantee you the people in Zimbawee etc would jump at the chance if we offered to swap Health Services with them.

So this is what it has come to?
Could you stop and think about the contrast for 2 moments please?

The 5th richest country in the world needs to contrast itself to the most corrupt country in the world, one of the poorest countries in the world, ruled by one of the most inhumane dictators in modern history, in order to portray its health service in a good light?

Where does my tax money go then?
Into Willie O'Dea's champagne glass on his flight to see Michael Dell.
I hope he enjoyed it.
Cheers Willie!

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The 5th richest country in the world needs to contrast itself to the most corrupt country in the world, one of the poorest countries in the world, ruled by one of the most inhumane dictators in modern history, in order to portray its health service in a good light?

Eh, no mate you said we've a Third World Health System, I merely pointed out that at best this is hyperbole and at worst a position of ignorance.

Lets actually look at some European surveys to judge how our Health Service ranks up against the rest of Europe.

The recent European Health Consumer from 2008: http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/2008-EHCI/EHCI-2008-report.pdf

The rankings are on page 13, we're in the middle of the pack far above Poland, Lithuania etc. We score a lot more poorly when the scores are adjusted for health spending (i.e. as they say in the report "bang for the buck" on page 23).

I want the Dutch Health system, it combines both public and private healthcare and universal coverage with a minimum of funding coming from taxation. It scores as you can see here far above the rest and does very well even when you look at the sub categories. I'd like to see done it's adapting the Dutch model which works so bloody well. Learn from others, we have neighbours who've tried different approaches that seem to work well, why stick with our obviously expensive and inefficient approach?

What I don't like is when people moan about our Health system calling it "Third World" and other sensationalist crap rather than point out that we have an ok health service that's very expensive to run that could be replaced with a different model of health care that works far better in practice and then point to an example from abroad and not just anecdotal evidence but something more concrete.


Edit: The point of the above, is I didn't pick Third World countries to cast our Health Service in a good light, I can use EU member states to do that. I was merely pointing out the inaccuracy and sensationalism of the simile.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Eh, no mate you said we've a Third World Health System, I merely pointed out that at best this is hyperbole and at worst a position of ignorance.

Lets actually look at some European surveys to judge how our Health Service ranks up against the rest of Europe.

The recent European Health Consumer from 2008: http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/2008-EHCI/EHCI-2008-report.pdf

The rankings are on page 13, we're in the middle of the pack far above Poland, Lithuania etc. We score a lot more poorly when the scores are adjusted for health spending (i.e. as they say in the report "bang for the buck" on page 23).

I want the Dutch Health system, it combines both public and private healthcare and universal coverage with a minimum of funding coming from taxation. It scores as you can see here far above the rest and does very well even when you look at the sub categories. If you want to know what I'd like to see done it's adapting the Dutch model which works so bloody well.

What I don't like is when people moan about our Health system calling it "Third World" and other sensationalist crap rather than point out that we have an ok health service that is very expensive to run that could be replaced with a different model of health care that works far better in practice.

Ok, I understand your point.
I think you're beind pedantic about the 3rd world comment, but I concede your point.

Allow me to rephrase it.
"We do not have a health service befitting a country of 1/2 of our economic prosperity, educational standards or perceived reputation."

I strongly disagree with that report and I suspect whoever wrote it has never been through the health system.

I have private health insurance for myself and my girlfriend in this country.
I'm not sure why I still pay it, its a contingency plan really.

I've been a customer of the public health system in both Poland and Lithuania.
I can guarantee to you, 100%, they're standard is so much better to us that we cannot even be compared on the same graph.

On a very basic level, I visited a doctor in Ireland for a bad case of glue ear after working the doors over winter a few years back. I was told to take Sudafed, he took E50 for a 120 second consultation and got rid of me.
2 weeks later I was in Poland.
My ex-gfs mother was a nurse, I went to the hospital and queued for about 20minutes.
I had acid put up my nostrils, pumps in my ear.
Seemed medieval to me, but I was glad they were doing something.
2 days later - no glue ear.
Cost: 0 Zloty

In Avgust, before I quite doorwork, my foot was hurt badly.
I went down to the Victoria hospital and the Mercy for an xray and told there was a 4 hour queue and a 6 hour queue.
A week later, i was on holdiays in Lithuania, it turned out I had 2 broken toes. Waiting time 15 minutes.

These issues are irrelevant.
In my gf's case however, the health issues were much more serious. I was convinced our doctors would be better than the Lithuanian doctors.
The end result was up giving up in frustation and going back to Lithuania for private healthcare.
The problem was discovered very rapidly over there.

I know this sounds hard to believe.
I grew up thinking that we were at the forefront of global development and that the evil commies had it all backwards and paid the price.

The reality is very, very different.

Do you know that there is a Polish Medical Centre in Cork City?
I don't need to explain why.



As regards the Dutch system, I don't know anything about it.
I would be more than happy to give it a go and pay tax toward it ON THE CONDITION that the correct people were brought in to manage it.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

The point of the above, is I didn't pick Third World countries to cast our Health Service in a good light, I can use EU member states to do that. I was merely pointing out the inaccuracy and sensationalism of the simile.

Please give examples of said countries.
Please equate these countries with wealth and GDP.

The inaccuracy and sensationalism of the simile is irrelevant to the issue being discussed. Regardless, I have rephrased it.
Let us stick to the issue being discussed, we can start a different topic about hyperbole if you like.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ok, I understand your point.
I think you're beind pedantic about the 3rd world comment, but I concede your point.

I am being pedantic, it's a Politics forum.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I strongly disagree with that report and I suspect whoever wrote it has never been through the health system.

The report is fairly good I think. It focuses on certain aspects and it picks out the problem areas for us quite accurately:

i.e. on the sub scores:

We are substantially below average in Patients Rights, Waiting Times and E-Health. We're about average for Range of Services and are substantially above average in terms of Outcomes and Pharmaceuticals.

When you finally get to see a consultant, which can take a long time and a lot messing around, you tend to see good results in this country on average. Patient rights are a joke and E-Health is non-existent (being able to see our medical records online if needed? I wish..). You do have access to modern and new drugs though here, which you don't necessarily in many other European countries, Lithuania and Poland both score low here. This doesn't make much of a difference for glue ear but if you've a mental illness or cancer having access to the newest drugs can make an enormous difference to the outcome of your case.

Our GP gateway system is a barrier to entry but it's there for a reason. For example:

Glue ear, a lot of the time is caused by a virus not a bacteria. A GP could give you antibiotics and they wouldn't automatically make it better, my GP rolled off some stat today of 90% of them are caused by virii when it's not "acute sinusitis". A lot of the time it is a case of take some Sudafed, Neurofen and wait it out unfortunately. The GP could prescribe you some antibiotics but overprescription of antibiotics is a bad thing. So your GP wasn't screwing you over. Not that that makes it feel any better to hand over 50 quid for the privilege or anything.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

As regards the Dutch system, I don't know anything about it.
I would be more than happy to give it a go and pay tax toward it ON THE CONDITION that the correct people were brought in to manage it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_Netherlands

Their official pages have some English references on them. It's very interesting. Your health insurance covers GP care, all medication and all hospital treatment. Your kids are automatically insured under your policy. You pay an excess for the first 150 euro of treatment or something per year but your kid's treatment doesn't incur this cost which as any parent will tell you is a very nice thing because kids are in the doctor's a lot more often than parents.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Please give examples of said countries.
Please equate these countries with wealth and GDP.

Then we get into an argument about whether we should compare on GDP or GNP since GDP massively overstates the true wealth of this country. We also would run into problems since you dislike the above linked survey because it doesn't match your experiences.

Honestly, I'll take a survey like the above over anecdotal evidence any day. Especially considering it's not an Irish survey and can be viewed as relatively unbiased I'd consider it useful. It also accurately (in my opinion) shows the gulf between our health service and that of the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc while having us in the group with Spain, Italy and the UK which anecdotally would match my experiences from talking to people from the above countries.


Edit:

One area that I think we can use the above survey and agree on is cost effectiveness. One of the commonest criticisms of the Irish system is that we pump a lot of cash into it (for our low tax rates) and don't get our money's worth out of it. If you look at the bang-for-buck rankings we're down at the bottom, yet when you look at spending per capita we spend only marginally less than top ranking countries like Sweden, The Netherlands and Denmark. That's where the big problem is in this country.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

I am being pedantic, it's a Politics forum.

But your not a politician.
PMSL, sorry mate
I'm sure Somalia will be express their gratitude when they stop pirating ships though.

The report is fairly good I think. It focuses on certain aspects and it picks out the problem areas for us quite accurately:

I don't need a report to tell me that:
Mary Harney and the HSE.

But lets go with it

We are substantially below average in Patients Rights, Waiting Times and E-Health. We're about average for Range of Services and are substantially above average in terms of Outcomes and Pharmaceuticals.

Ka-ching - Pharmaceuticals.

How about a nice cup of MRSA?

When you finally get to see a consultant, which can take a long time and a lot messing around, you tend to see good results in this country on average.

I don't disagree, I had 2 operations in my youth.
The consultant was excellent.
This was over 20 years ago however

Patient rights are a joke and E-Health is non-existent (being able to see our medical records online if needed? I wish..).

Pretty confident my company could build a good E-health system in 12months.
Give it to Mary Harney or Eamon Ryan and it would double in time and quadruple in cost.
This is the crux of my argument and my original point

You do have access to modern and new drugs though here, which you don't necessarily in many other European countries, Lithuania and Poland both score low here. This doesn't make much of a difference for glue ear but if you've a mental illness or cancer having access to the newest drugs can make an enormous difference to the outcome of your case.

ROTFLMAO.
My uncle has prostate cancer. Waiting, waiting, waiting.

My Gf's mother has a brain tumour on the rebound, just had kemo.
Waiting time: 2 weeks
Location: kaunas

Put that report in the bin mate;)

Our GP gateway system is a barrier to entry but it's there for a reason.

I know the reason, money.

I have discussed endocrinology with my my GP.
He admitted he didn't have a clue.

Glue ear, a lot of the time is caused by a virus not a bacteria. A GP could give you antibiotics and they wouldn't automatically make it better, my GP rolled off some stat today of 90% of them are caused by virii when it's not "acute sinusitis". A lot of the time it is a case of take some Sudafed, Neurofen and wait it out unfortunately. The GP could prescribe you some antibiotics but overprescription of antibiotics is a bad thing. So your GP wasn't screwing you over. Not that that makes it feel any better to hand over 50 quid for the privilege or anything.

If this is the case, then why were they able to dislodge the fluid build up in Poland using acid to widen the air passage and an air pump to dislodge the fluid?

Why was I was prescribed a beta agonist and advised to take pseduo-ephedrine when it clearly was not needed and could have alleviated my symptomns?

Robbing peter to pay paul..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_Netherlands

Their official pages have some English references on them. It's very interesting. Your health insurance covers GP care, all medication and all hospital treatment. Your kids are automatically insured under your policy. You pay an excess for the first 150 euro of treatment or something per year but your kid's treatment doesn't incur this cost which as any parent will tell you is a very nice thing because kids are in the doctor's a lot more often than parents.

Thanks for the link, I'll read it.

Now, honest question, how can we get our government to adopt this system?

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

How about a nice cup of MRSA?

Yeah the report is critical but unclear on this one. It says the only improvement has been seen in the British Isles and a few other countries, I've no idea if they mean UK & Ireland or not here.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't disagree, I had 2 operations in my youth.
The consultant was excellent.
This was over 20 years ago however

Similar here and more recently for other stuff.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Pretty confident my company could build a good E-health system in 12months.
Give it to Mary Harney or Eamon Ryan and it would double in time and quadruple in cost.
This is the crux of my argument and my original point

And that report comes down like a ton of bricks on us for this as I pointed out above in the edit (which I apologise for being late, you probably didn't get a chance to read it before writing this reply).

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

ROTFLMAO.
My uncle has prostate cancer. Waiting, waiting, waiting.

My Gf's mother has a brain tumour on the rebound, just had kemo.
Waiting time: 2 weeks
Location: kaunas

Put that report in the bin mate;)

Mate of mine had a brain tumor and got treatment pretty bloody quickly in fairness (they're a lot quicker with stuff that'll kill you immediately ). A friend's dad was in hospital for prostate cancer and got dicked around a lot though.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If this is the case, then why were they able to dislodge the fluid build up in Poland using acid to widen the air passage and an air pump to dislodge the fluid?

Why was I was prescribed a beta agonist and advised to take pseduo-ephedrine when it clearly was not needed and could have alleviated my symptomns?

I ain't a doctor but the fluid build up is a symptom not a cause of otis media from my understanding of it, and pseudoephedrine is just the chemical name for Sudafed (or its class of decongestants). I've no idea what a beta agonist does.

The decongestant will relieve the symptoms but it won't cure the cause of the ear infection if it's viral or bacterial. The acid and pump thing just sounds like decongestion on steroids but I honestly don't have a clue about whether it works the way I think it does.

Bug em on the Medicine board about it, should be interesting reading.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Now, honest question, how can we get our government to adopt this system?

Prayer because it would involve kicking most doctors and nurses off the public payroll and onto the private one and I don't see that happening with any of the major parties in Government.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Then we get into an argument about whether we should compare on GDP or GNP since GDP massively overstates the true wealth of this country.

Not at all, we can use GNP/GNI if you wish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita
http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/globalworldincomepercapita.htm

Honestly, I'll take a survey like the above over anecdotal evidence any day. Especially considering it's not an Irish survey and can be viewed as relatively unbiased I'd consider it useful. It also accurately (in my opinion) shows the gulf between our health service and that of the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc while having us in the group with Spain, Italy and the UK which anecdotally would match my experiences from talking to people from the above countries.

I cannot agree or disagree at present as I've not had time to review the sources.
If the sources are accurate and reliable, I would consider that I've just been drastically unlucky.
I believe I'm unlikely to come to conclusion unfortunately.

BTW, comparing the HSE to NHS, is rather like comparing Charlie H to Abe Lincoln.
The NHS is a colossal machine servicing a colossal population.
Spain and Italy again, have significantly bigger populations than us.

Here are the countries in the 4 million band, upper and lower

Turkmenistan

Eritrea

Singapore

Norway

Ireland

Croatia
Costa Rica
Georgia
United Arab Emirates
Central African Republic
New Zealand
Lebanon


Edit:

One area that I think we can use the above survey and agree on is cost effectiveness. One of the commonest criticisms of the Irish system is that we pump a lot of cash into it (for our low tax rates) and don't get our money's worth out of it. If you look at the bang-for-buck rankings we're down at the bottom, yet when you look at spending per capita we spend only marginally less than top ranking countries like Sweden, The Netherlands and Denmark. That's where the big problem is in this country.

I agree with that.
I'm sure you've heard of the HSE workers complaints that they cannot change a clock in their office, they have to call in an engineer due to the possibility of a demarcation dispute or union action.

Or having to get 2 managers to sign off on toilet paper?

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

pseudoephedrine is just the chemical name for Sudafed (or its class of decongestants

Yes, and it results in the production of Nor-adrenaline, which is not a good thing to have if you have pretension or hypertension.
Its cardiac side effects are also dubious

I've no idea what a beta agonist does.

I'm aware what it does mate, basically opens the bronchioles to increase air flow, important for astmathics etc. (which I am not btw)

Endocrinology is a part time hobby of mine, obviously not of some of our doctors however.

Ingest a beta agonist and pseudo-ephedrine can result in bad hypertension and damage the heart in the absense of taurine.
(this is why taurine is added to red bull if you read the contents)

The decongestant will relieve the symptoms but it won't cure the cause of the ear infection if it's viral or bacterial. The acid and pump thing just sounds like decongestion on steroids but I honestly don't have a clue about whether it works the way I think it does.

It worked alright, very well in fact.
I didn't have to buy any drugs or suffer from nor-adrenaline either.
I imagine it was 1/3 the cost as well (they didn't charge me)

Prayer because it would involve kicking most doctors and nurses off the public payroll and onto the private one and I don't see that happening with any of the major parties in Government.

I'm a bit of an atheist tbh mate. I doubt prayer would change anything anyway.

There has to be a way.
I genuinely wanted to find a way to change things in this country.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I cannot agree or disagree at present as I've not had time to review the sources.
If the sources are accurate and reliable, I would consider that I've just been drastically unlucky.
I believe I'm unlikely to come to conclusion unfortunately.

BTW, comparing the HSE to NHS, is rather like comparing Charlie H to Abe Lincoln.
The NHS is a colossal machine servicing a colossal population.
Spain and Italy again, have significantly bigger populations than us.

Here are the countries in the 4 million band, upper and lower

I'd agree with that but only to the extent that it makes some parts tougher for us and some parts easier (and maybe more expensive for providing specialist services per capita). Have a read of the survey and its method. I thought it fairly comprehensive and sensible and honestly the best window we'll get on our health system in European terms is through surveys like these. Tossing anecdotes back and forth won't get us far. If you can find another similar survey we can use that or compare the two which would be even better.

I'll quote their specific remarks about the HSE in 2008:

The Health Service Executive reform seems to have started improving
a historically dismal performance. The severe waiting list problems
seem to be improving, and so are Outcomes. However, patient
organisations do not seem to have discovered this.

They don't think we've got a top class health system by any means, it's more that it isn't that much worse than most of the rest of Europe. They're also quite complimentary about Poland et al and how much improvement they've made over the old Soviet system etc.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Edit:
I agree with that.
I'm sure you've heard of the HSE workers complaints that they cannot change a clock in their office, they have to call in an engineer due to the possibility of a demarcation dispute or union action.

Or having to get 2 managers to sign off on toilet paper?

Yeah it's an utter joke all right.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yes, and it results in the production of Nor-adrenaline, which is not a good thing to have if you have pretension or hypertension.
Its cardiac side effects are also dubious


I'm aware what it does mate, basically opens the bronchioles to increase air flow, important for astmathics etc. (which I am not btw)

Endocrinology is a part time hobby of mine, obviously not of some of our doctors however.

Ingest a beta agonist and pseudo-ephedrine can result in bad hypertension and damage the heart in the absense of taurine.
(this is why taurine is added to red bull if you read the contents)

Interesting. I'd heard about some of the pseudoendrine stuff, being a sufferer from sinusitis/otis media a few times a year combined with slightly high blood pressure from other medication I'm on means this stuff gets pointed out to me a fair bit by GP.

My personal medical hobby is the action of psychiatric drugs and the biology of mental illness (am a bipolar sufferer, so have seen the bad side of the HSE, mental health services are a joke in this country. I just don't like to judge a system that big based on my own experiences and prefer to look at studies instead for a broader view).

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Interesting. I'd heard about some of the pseudoendrine stuff, being a sufferer from sinusitis/otis media a few times a year combined with slightly high blood pressure from other medication I'm on means this stuff gets pointed out to me a fair bit by GP.

My personal medical hobby is the action of psychiatric drugs and the biology of mental illness (am a bipolar sufferer, so have seen the bad side of the HSE, mental health services are a joke in this country. I just don't like to judge a system that big based on my own experiences and prefer to look at studies instead for a broader view).

I disagree.

I can't imagine there are too many folks in this country who suffer from bi-polar disorder, correct me if I'm wrong?

I'd imagine you have a better overview than just about anybody mate, given that you're coming into contact with doctors and other patients, as opposed to a man in a suit writing a report before he goes for lunch.

You live and breathe it.

Interested to hear more about the psychiatric drugs, I'm more interested in PEDs, but I love to know how these things work.

Rented Mule

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

While I will agree whole heartedly with the scapegoating comment, I have to push a little further into the McDonalds/cigarette comment.

This government has been telling everyone that everything was fine for the past many years. Anyone who said otherwise was a 'doomsday sayer', much like those who campaigned to tell us that cigarettes weren't a health hazard not somany years ago.

Highsider

Ireland and Italy, Italy proberly wins by a nose.

jimmmy

To answer the OP question, yes.

We got tens of billions in handouts from the EC ( mainly Germany and UK ) and we still screwed up.

As Gay Byrne said years ago " we should give the country back to the UK with a note of apology "

thebman

jimmmy wrote: »

To answer the OP question, yes.

We got tens of billions in handouts from the EC ( mainly Germany and UK ) and we still screwed up.

As Gay Byrne said years ago " we should give the country back to the UK with a note of apology "

I don't know if you've seen the British governments policies but they aren't good either.

Just ask almost any English person.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I disagree.

I can't imagine there are too many folks in this country who suffer from bi-polar disorder, correct me if I'm wrong?

About 1-2% of the population, give or take. It's much more prevalent than people realise, though often it's because untreated it cause things like alcoholism and people fail to see the underlying cause and just see the symptoms.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'd imagine you have a better overview than just about anybody mate, given that you're coming into contact with doctors and other patients, as opposed to a man in a suit writing a report before he goes for lunch.

You live and breathe it.

Nope, I see only one tiny part of it and even then my experience wouldn't that of the average person with bipolar because I've a much rarer form of it. I'd trust a general report looking at the statistics over my limited view any day. Anecdotal evidence is really not something I trust to tell me the big picture.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Interested to hear more about the psychiatric drugs, I'm more interested in PEDs, but I love to know how these things work.

This book is a good lay introduction to the neuroscience of these conditions: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brave-New-Brain-Conquering-Illness/dp/0195167287/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234627836&sr=8-1

You can't understand the drugs without first understanding the brain and something of the defects in it that cause mental illness.

truthflyer

Ireland, most incompetent country in Western Europe, for sure

fuzzy dunlop

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you speak Russian?
Have you been to Russia?
Have you ever travelled to Eastern Europe?

I'm not sure where Irish people get these ideas.

My ex-girlfriend was Polish. I speak Polish.
I've visited the country numerous times.
Back in 2004, you could get a 6mb connection in central poland (rural territory adjacent to Poznan) for 40 zloty per month.

My current girlfriend is ethnic Russian from Lithuania. I speak Russian.
I've visisted the country numerous times.
Last September, her sister had an 8mb connection for 60lits per month.

Take a stroll around Warsaw and stare at the skyscrapers or the palas kulturysta.
Take a drive in Vilnius and have a look at motorway system or the infrastructure in the new city.
I promise you, if you do this, you'll understand that Ireland is just a village by comparison.

I'm currently living in a commuter town 30km west of Cork city.
I cannot get internet in my town. Last estimation I was given was a 6 week waiting period.

===

Regarding the health service, my girlfriend had to go home to discover what was actually wrong with her as the Irish doctors just shrugged their shoulders and prescribed a battery of antibiotics.
2 hours in a private clinic at home and she knew the facts.

I've been to the dentist in Poland, and honestly, I would go there any day over Ireland.

==

Ireland's strength is her people. I could never happily live anywhere else.
We have among the best educated and friendly people in Europe.
I've never seen a level of entrepeneurialisim like I've seen in Ireland.

Its not fair that we should have to suffer under a political system like the one we have.

We are throwing our future and our children's future away by continuining to accept these political cowboys.

I get my ideas with being a regular vistor to Eastern Europe and in particular Lithuania and can state categorically that you are wildly exagerating the level of progress and basic standard of living in Lithuanina in particular.Ireland on average is at least 30 years ahead of Lithuania and in some ways up to 50 years.


The Motorway system in Lithuania is in the hapenny place compared to ours and their motorways are built to a lower standard.Most of the motorways between cities have next to no grade seperated junctions and were in fact built mostly by the Russian military.

20% of the population is living in housing that is almost a third world standard with no proper sanitation i.e outhouses.It is common to see elederly people milking a single cow outside their home in the country. Corrugated fibre glass roofing on housing similar to what you'd see on an ad hoc back kitchen built here in the 80'S is common site.Modern housing stock including apartments varies from impeccable to unbelievably shoddy.Specifically brickwork that has to be seen to be believed.House prices when income level is taken into account is worse than our own bubble.For most people icomes are low and expenditure on basic things like food take up most of their salaries.

Regarding the health sevice bribery is common when visiting specialists.The common trick being the specialist sits beside the patient so that the patient can slip a 50LT note in his pocket. Failure to do so will result in the consultant speaking in vague ambiguous language that will leave the patient none the wiser.I notice your girlfriend visited a "private" clinic. This is not comparing like with like.

Public services are good however their is a serious case of "tinpot dictator" syndrome when dealing with civil servants.
]Vilnius is undoubtadley a beautiful city but you do not have to go far outside the city centre to see the reality.The vast majority of the city lives in large monolith tower blocks built during the Soviet era similar to the Ballymun towers.

This is the only reason their isn't a dozen 32 storey skyscrapers in the IFSC. It is also the reason why delivery of Broadband is so difficult here.In Irish cities Broadband services are good.What Irish people don't seem to get is moving out to the sticks has repurcussions for the delivery of services.

The rest of Vilnius is a mix of housing and business units simiular to what you see in a retail park here with absolutely no aesthetic value.Kaunas and Klaipeda are the same. In this context it is easier for them to build skyscrapers but this in itself proves nothing.You can go to any African capital and find ultra modern skyscrapers with people in povert outside it.In fact a preocuppation with skyscrapers can betray an inferiority complex in a people as much as sign of progress

Dannyboy83

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I get my ideas with being a regular vistor to Eastern Europe and in particular Lithuania and can state categorically that you are wildly exagerating the level of progress and basic standard of living in Lithuanina in particular.Ireland on average is at least 30 years ahead of Lithuania and in some ways up to 50 years.

HAHAHA,
On what grounds?

The Motorway system in Lithuania is in the hapenny place compared to ours and their motorways are built to a lower standard.Most of the motorways between cities have next to no grade seperated junctions and were in fact built mostly by the Russian military.

Let me ask you, have you ever been to Cork?
There isn't even public transport here, there are 4 dual carraigeways, and a (sort of) motorway.

I drove from Kaunas to Vilnius during the summer.
Granted, it wasn't German, but it was a damn site better than anything I've seen around my part of the country.

NOW....if you comparing it to Dublin/Portlaoise, I would agree that there is a different class. But the Lithuanian infrastructure covers the whole country!

We don't even have a motorway from Cork to Limerick, not to mention Cork to Dublin!

20% of the population is living in housing that is almost a third world standard with no proper sanitation i.e outhouses.It is common to see elederly people milking a single cow outside their home in the country. Corrugated fibre glass roofing on housing similar to what you'd see on an ad hoc back kitchen built here in the 80'S is common site.Modern housing stock including apartments varies from impeccable to unbelievably shoddy.Specifically brickwork that has to be seen to be believed.House prices when income level is taken into account is worse than our own bubble.For most people icomes are low and expenditure on basic things like food take up most of their salaries.

When was the last time you were in Lithuania exactly?:rolleyes:

I will grant you this, in some rural areas, there are shacks, there is deprivation.
Now, have you ever been to Cork, West Cork or Limerick?
Ever been to Connaught?
Ever been anywhere outside of Dublin?

Ireland is not Dublin and Dublin is not Ireland

Regarding the health sevice bribery is common when visiting specialists.The common trick being the specialist sits beside the patient so that the patient can slip a 50LT note in his pocket. Failure to do so will result in the consultant speaking in vague ambiguous language that will leave the patient none the wiser.I notice your girlfriend visited a "private" clinic. This is not comparing like with like.

I've been through the public health service, myself.
In both Lithuania and Poland.

Your point about bribes is misplaced.
First, It is common to bribe the police.
Second, this is a scam in Lithuania (the country is full of scams) where, when people don't want to go to work, they just pay for a sick note. You don't, however, have to bribe people for adequate medical treatment. (In Ireland, you can bribe, but 5 times out of 10 you won't get it anyway)

I certainly didn't have to bribe the medical practicioners that dealt with me to get medical treatment and I couldn't fault them in any way, other than their disproval of speaking Russian in Kaunas.

Its not a fairytale by any means, but comparing rich "superior" Ireland with poor "backward" Lithuania............

Public services are good however their is a serious case of "tinpot dictator" syndrome when dealing with civil servants.

I agree, that is characteristic of ALL Eastern Europe in my experience.
However, that is cultural, possibly the result of high unemployment and/or communisim.

I would rather have a dictator doing his job and clinging to it, than a hungover, halfwitted, incompetent person not even wanting to do it in the first place.
Now, I'm by no means saying that all people in our public services are like that, we have some outstanding people but there are a number of towns in Ireland where these descriptions are consistent and applicable across the board.

Vilnius is undoubtadley a beautiful city but you do not have to go far outside the city centre to see the reality.The vast majority of the city lives in large monolith tower blocks built during the Soviet era similar to the Ballymun towers.

Have you ever seen the insides of those towers?
How do you think the Elysian is going to look in 29 years?
Besides, there are plenty of new apartment blocks around Kaunas and Vilnius.
Regardless, thats accurate only of the old city.

If you've been to the new city and still think like this, then I think we've been to very different places.

Lastly, the shortfall is in your understanding of their culture.
I made the same mistake myself when I went their first.

Those people prefer to spend money on clothes and cars than to spend it on houses.
In Ireland, we have a social system based on how many bedrooms your house has or the number of 0s, in Lithuania, they have a similar system with clothes and cars in my experience.

This is the only reason their isn't a dozen 32 storey skyscrapers in the IFSC. It is also the reason why delivery of Broadband is so difficult here.In Irish cities Broadband services are good.What Irish people don't seem to get is moving out to the sticks has repurcussions for the delivery of services.

First,
well you've gone and proven my point for me there:D
I went into the phone stores all over Cork at the weekend, they all told me the 3G internet is as good as useless, the best you can do it check your email.
The 3G system is touted by the government as the answer to Rural Ireland's broadband problems.
The irony is that the 3G system only works in built up areas where people use ADSL or wireless receiver anyway.
Thats like giving people a lifejacket that only inflates outside of water!

Secondly, I don't even live in a rural area.
I live in the centre of a commuter town less than 30km from the 2nd largest city in the country. I live less than 50secs walk from one of the major SMBs in this country, the No.1 provider in the whole continent of Europe in the IT Services industry.
I am still waiting for broadband.

They laid a fibre optic cable here a few years back.
They bypassed this town!

It Irish incompetence, served cold.

Have a read off Shane Ross's website.
http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/category/broadband/

The rest of Vilnius is a mix of housing and business units simiular to what you see in a retail park here with absolutely no aesthetic value.

How about "pot, kettle, black"? (besides being a matter of taste and perspective anyway)

Kaunas and Klaipeda are the same. In this context it is easier for them to build skyscrapers but this in itself proves nothing.You can go to any African capital and find ultra modern skyscrapers with people in povert outside it.In fact a preocuppation with skyscrapers can betray an inferiority complex in a people as much as sign of progress

Besides being incorrect, thats completely irrelevant, and anyway, there were ample inferiority complexes throughout this country over the last 15 years.



In summary:
I'm not trying to make out Poland or Lithuania to be dream lands - far from it.
All I'm saying here is that given the amount of money that has come through the coffers of this country for the last 15-20 years, we have essentially done nothing with it.

We have minimal transport infrastructure.
We have developed essentially no communications infrastructure.

The money has been squandered in a horrific show of incompetence, and we are unlikely to ever see that level of profitability in this country anytime within the next 100 years.

I have used 'poor countries' as examples such as Lithuania and Poland, who put Ireland (Top 10 richest countries in world for the last decade) to shame, where they have more competently developed superior infrastructure using significantly less available funds.


I'm not sure where the unbelievable snobbery in Ireland came from, but I have an inkling it came from these various countries exporting their "least best" people.
Now, can you imagine some of the ****ing scumbags that may be going over there from Ireland and the impression they'll be getting of us?

monosharp

nesf wrote: »

One thing I'm sick of at the moment is how everyone wants to lump responsibility for this onto the politicians, the bankers et al. If you look back at public opinion over the boom years you will not find much that spoke of fiscal restraint or the need to limit spending and use the revenue to build up reserves to get us through the next downturn. As far as I'm concerned we all (and I include myself in this) did not do enough to encourage reasonable spending during the boom years.

Capitalism, at least the way it has being ran thus far, is a flawed system. Its the lads at the top you just mentioned who have broke the system.

Greed for more profit has caused this whole mess. Everyone was begging for their place at the trough and didn't seem to care about the bankers, the employers, the company executives etc with the huge amount to themselves.

I posted this video; http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7382297202053077236&hl=en on the economics forum.

Its a lecture by an economics professor who points out the fact that this crisis is not just financial but it shows that the entire capitalist system, the way it is being run, is designed to collapse like this.

fuzzy dunlop

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

HAHAHA,
On what grounds?

On the Grounds I outlined. A bigger picture than the domestic broadband and Soviet built dual carriageways you have used.

Let’s get something straight. I have no axe to grind with Lithuania. I happen to love the place. The problem I have is the Bull**** that you are trying to propagate here when comparing it to Ireland. The best you can come up with is Broadband availability in “some” areas and motorway corridors that were not even built by the Lithuanian government.

The subject of this thread can only be judged by what is going on in other countries and independent analysis and not media stories which are hungry for controversy at the best of times.
http://www.freema.org/index.php/menu/newsroom/articles_commentaries/international_conference_lithuania_in_the_world_competitive_or_outcompeted/4891

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1013403.shtml

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1013154.shtml

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Let me ask you, have you ever been to Cork?
There isn't even public transport here, there are 4 dual carraigeways, and a (sort of) motorway.

Ah the smiley faces the “coup the grace” of intelligent debate:rolleyes: The public transport in Lithuania is no better. Don’t tell me the trolleybuses are comparable to Dublin Bus, Dart and Arrow services.

Yes I’ve been to Cork and there is Public transport. It’s adequate enough for the size of the city and easily comparable to what you will find in Lithuania. The only difference is that the buses are not from the 80’s (like Vilnius) and are not powered by overhead cables.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I drove from Kaunas to Vilnius during the summer.
Granted, it wasn't German, but it was a damn site better than anything I've seen around my part of the country.

I drove this road last April from Vilnius-Kaunas-Klaipeda and it was about the same standard as the N25 dual carriageway from Mallow to Cork most of the way. In other words nothing special. The thing I noticed was there were junctions on the motorway i.e. not separated like here.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

NOW....if you comparing it to Dublin/Portlaoise, I would agree that there is a different class. But the Lithuanian infrastructure covers the whole country!

I’m comparing it to Dublin-Portlaoise, Dublin to the Border and Dublin to Galway and many other projects being constructed or finished in the country .And this road is certainly not typical all over Lithuania


Irish cities have not got this linear relationship with the capital i.e. they have a radial one. Also the topography of Lithuania is completely different so the engineering involved is not the same. The country is essentially flat. They have no mountains and few hills. And as I said earlier these roads were essentially built to transport the Red Army through Europe.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

We don't even have a motorway from Cork to Limerick, not to mention Cork to Dublin!

So what? We barely had Motorways at all prior to 2000.Hovw Many Lithuanian A roads have been built since Independence?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

When was the last time you were in Lithuania exactly?

October.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I will grant you this, in some rural areas, there are shacks, there is deprivation.
Now, have you ever been to Cork, West Cork or Limerick?
Ever been to Connaught?
Ever been anywhere outside of Dublin?

I’m not from Dublin. I grew up in the South East and for a time in Kerry. I Have many relatives in West Cork and Kerry

I would need to go back at least to the early 70s to get to to a time when provincial Ireland was in the state that provincial Lithuania is. In fact you would probably have to go back to the 50’s in Ireland to see the last time people depending on their main possession of one cow for their milk supply. Or no running water and a latrine (A hole in the ground with a shed around it) for a toilet. Many thousands of rural Lithuanians are still living like this.


Have you ever been to Anyksciai or Ukmerge?

Have you been to Palanga or Drushkininkai? Vast swathes of the Lithuanian countryside are covered in glorified shacks that pass for housing. At least 15% of the housing stock is like this. Don’t try and say the west of Ireland is like this. Another 60% is Soviet era “Ballymuns”. Which anyone who goes there can obviously see.


http://www.am.lt/VI/en/VI/files/0.386991001107419000.doc

And a large portion of the stock that is luxury is owned or built by corrupt local versions of the Russian oligarchs.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ireland is not Dublin and Dublin is not Ireland

And the west of Ireland is not rural Lithuania it is 30 years ahead AT LEAST in living standards

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I've been through the public health service, myself.
In both Lithuania and Poland.

Both of which is far worse than Ireland. Independently verified.


http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/2008-EHCI/EHCI-2008-figures-tables.doc

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Your point about bribes is misplaced.
First, It is common to bribe the police.
Second, this is a scam in Lithuania (the country is full of scams) where, when people don't want to go to work, they just pay for a sick note. You don't, however, have to bribe people for adequate medical treatment. (In Ireland, you can bribe, but 5 times out of 10 you won't get it anyway)

So bribery is common practice in Lithuania. I’m talking about a sixty year old native Lithuanian and not a visiting Irish person. It’s not common to have to bribe police, GP’s or public servants here. Granted there have been cases but it’s relatively rare. I don't see your point in saying their scams.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I certainly didn't have to bribe the medical practicioners that dealt with me to get medical treatment and I couldn't fault them in any way, other than their disproval of speaking Russian in Kaunas.

But you’re a foreigner. This would explain the different attitude. But the fact is as far as corruption goes Lithuanian is far worse than Ireland and in fact is one of the worst countries in the developed world.

http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/cpi2008/cpi_2008_table

Not only this but it has been independently verified that Lithuanian Health care is among the worst in the EU.

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/15731/


Ireland on the other hand has average healthcare which corresponds with average expenditure.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Its not a fairytale by any means, but comparing rich "superior" Ireland with poor "backward" Lithuania............

Lithuania is not poor by international standards. I also never said they were backward. I’m making the point that a few glitzy skyscrapers in the centre of Vilnius motorways do not make a progressive country.And btw you introduced skyscrapers into the debate.I was the one who pointed out their irrelevance.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I agree, that is characteristic of ALL Eastern Europe in my experience.
However, that is cultural, possibly the result of high unemployment and/or communisim.

It could but Estonia doesn’t seem to have this problem to the same degree and Italy is in the same league

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I would rather have a dictator doing his job and clinging to it, than a hungover, halfwitted, incompetent person not even wanting to do it in the first place.
Now, I'm by no means saying that all people in our public services are like that, we have some outstanding people but there are a number of towns in Ireland where these descriptions are consistent and applicable across the board.

That would be great except that they are dictators and no more competent than the average public servant here. As for hungover workers. Again a bigger problem in Lithuania than in Ireland except maybe change hungover to drunk.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Have you ever seen the insides of those towers?
How do you think the Elysian is going to look in 29 years?
Besides, there are plenty of new apartment blocks around Kaunas and Vilnius.
Regardless, thats accurate only of the old city.

Yes my Brother in Law and his family live in one in Vilnius and they are sh!t. Any comfort in them is down to the endeavors of the occupiers.My brothers ex grew up in Connolly tower in Ballymun before the regeneration project and they were better. What is more my mother in law is living in a house (One of the better ones) where the heating is centrally controlled by the local govt. i.e it goes on when they say and goes off when they say.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you've been to the new city and still think like this, then I think we've been to very different places.

Yes I’ve been to Vilnius, Kaunas, Klaipeda, Palanga and many other places. .

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Lastly, the shortfall is in your understanding of their culture.
I made the same mistake myself when I went their first.

Those people prefer to spend money on clothes and cars than to spend it on houses.
In Ireland, we have a social system based on how many bedrooms your house has or the number of 0s, in Lithuania, they have a similar system with clothes and cars in my experience.

This is opinionated drivel:D Theiy’re both consumer societies and both have experienced a property bubble. Don’t try and claim something ridiculous like Irish people are not as into clothes and cars as Lithuanians are.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

First,
well you've gone and proven my point for me there
I went into the phone stores all over Cork at the weekend, they all told me the 3G internet is as good as useless, the best you can do it check your email.
The 3G system is touted by the government as the answer to Rural Ireland's broadband problems.
The irony is that the 3G system only works in built up areas where people use ADSL or wireless receiver anyway.
Thats like giving people a lifejacket that only inflates outside of water!

I don’t see how I’ve proven your point. The main thing that has aided Broadband implementation in Lithuania is a legacy of the Soviet era. You’re going on like broadband is the solution to all our problems if only! Have you flown through Kaunas airport? How does this compare to Cork airport? It doesn’t a fair comparison is probably Farranfore or Knock which is also a former Russian FA aerodrome.

30km is the countryside outside a small city like Cork which by rights should be no more than a 2,5 mile radius from its centre if it say had the pop. density of Vilnius.This is also only Domestic broadband. Infrastructure is only one factor you can judge a countries progressiveness on.here is a whole host of other things that need to be considered than just broadband penetration. The education system, the airports, the housing stock,Social services, the sea ports, the telecoms system, sanitation, social housing and services. in general are just a few examples. Lithuanian standard of living has actually decreased since Independence.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Secondly, I don't even live in a rural area.
I live in the centre of a commuter town less than 30km from the 2nd largest city in the country. I live less than 50secs walk from one of the major SMBs in this country, the No.1 provider in the whole continent of Europe in the IT Services industry.
I am still waiting for broadband.

Sorry to break it to yeh but 30km is the countryside outside a small city like Cork which by rights should be no more than a 2,5 mile radius from its centre if it say had the pop. Density of Vilnius,Klaipeda or Kaunas

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

They laid a fibre optic cable here a few years back.
They bypassed this town!

It Irish incompetence, served cold.

Perhaps but that isn’t the point you will find this sort of incompetence in Lithuania and most other countries also.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Have a read off Shane Ross's website.
http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/category/broadband/

FFS broadband again! Have you anything else to say!Anyway no thanks. I know the Senator along with Eddie Hobbs and a few others are having a field day at the moment but I prefer to get my information in a variety of places and not just some careerists.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Besides being incorrect, that’s completely irrelevant, and anyway, there were ample inferiority complexes throughout this country over the last 15 years.

Judging by your posts the Irish inferiority complex and self loathing is alive and well:p

If it is irrelevant then why did you introduce it in the case of Poland? And if it is incorrect then say how exactly. You will see skyscrapers in downtown Jo burg, Lagos and many other African cities that are the most corrupt and incompetent in the world. The point I made their presence means diddly squat.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In summary:
I'm not trying to make out Poland or Lithuania to be dream lands - far from it.
All I'm saying here is that given the amount of money that has come through the coffers of this country for the last 15-20 years, we have essentially done nothing with it.

And I’m saying this is nonsense.Given the amount of corruption that is prevalent in that country compared to Ireland they would have done a worse job.The legacy of centralized Soviet planning has given them a huge dividend which they are eroding and following a pattern similar to our own, They holy grail of high speed broadband that you are judging both countries is not a fair criteria . Although this is one of the successes they have had. In Lithuanias case its success is probably related to two factors. It’s higher population density in three relatively large cities which is a legacy of Soviet central planning and the fact that they didn’t privatize their state telecoms company like we did. Granted eircom was a big mistake but it also needs to be considered it was the first privatization of a state utility in Ireland.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

We have minimal transport infrastructure.
We have developed essentially no communications infrastructure.

Lets see some empirical evidence for that with a comparable country.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The money has been squandered in a horrific show of incompetence, and we are unlikely to ever see that level of profitability in this country anytime within the next 100 years.

The money in this country was as much virtual as real. In absolute terms it was a lot less when high wages and a property bubble is taken into account. It also has to be judged in an international context. For example is incompetence here the exception or the norm.



http://www.healthdirect.co.uk/2008/06/nhs-npfit-white-elephant-hit-as-fujitsu.html

Wastage is common in countries that go through a boom. We make the mistake of thinking that 10 years of prosperity is enough to make us stand shoulder to shoulder with countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands. Many of which have had centuries of the wealth we have had in only a decade. Or else like have significant natural resources to add to the mix.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I have used 'poor countries' as examples such as Lithuania and Poland, who put Ireland (Top 10 richest countries in world for the last decade) to shame, where they have more competently developed superior infrastructure using significantly less available funds.

Less funds and lower wages and lower land costs and higer economy of scale in the case of Poland. A lot of Infrastructure that was already there and is not necessarily superior. Also these countries are not poor in an international context. Lets see how successful Poland is with achieving their Euro 2012 ambitions.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm not sure where the unbelievable snobbery in Ireland came from, but I have an inkling it came from these various countries exporting their "least best" people.

Least best people :eek:Bit of a snob yourself aren’t you? This truly is the pot calling the kettle black as well as the fact that it has no basis in reality.

Dannyboy83

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

On the Grounds I outlined. A bigger picture than the domestic broadband and Soviet built dual carriageways you have used.

Your part about the people pissing in Latrines had us in stitches here.

If you check back to the start of this topic, you will see I was speaking in context of infrastructure and this governments failure to do anything about it.
As I said, the only thing I ever wanted the Gov to do was to build a Broadband infrastructure 1/10th of the quality of Japan.

This is the basis of my livelihood, its no different than a taxi man wanting a taxi rank or a chef wanting a kitchen.

Let’s get something straight. I have no axe to grind with Lithuania. I happen to love the place. The problem I have is the Bull**** that you are trying to propagate here when comparing it to Ireland. The best you can come up with is Broadband availability in “some” areas and motorway corridors that were not even built by the Lithuanian government.

I don't believe you have an axe to grind and I'm not suggesting that mate.
I wasn't calling you a snob and I honestly apologise if you thought I was.
To be honest, I don't particularily like Lithuanian people, I find them quite rude, although a select few are among my best friends.

I was referring to the misplaced snobbery that Irish people have with comparison to Eastern Europe.
I'm sure you have encountered this.

People cite Ireland as better and compare it to Eastern Europe.
In terms of virtual money, we stand out better.
But in terms of anything else, we look quite muddy.

The reason I drew the comparison to Lithuania was because Russia is an unfair comparison and because I was trying to show how much money has been through our governments coffers and their seeming inability to do anything useful with it.

About the roads, the ones I drive on were paid for by the EU.
If you've been on the new EU funded motorway from Warsaw to Wroclaw, I'm sure you'll agree that Ireland is nothing special.
Irish roads don’t stand out from any of the EU funded roads I’ve driven on.

Irish people believe that we have/had it so good and that we are/were the "Silicon Valley" of Europe when the truth is companies who choose to come here have to confine themselves to the Dublin area.
A lot of the IT industry simply cannot get work in Cork.

A number of the companies I've worked for in recent years have had unbelievable stuggles with broadband, when this shouldn't even be an issue.

The public transport in Lithuania is no better. Don’t tell me the trolleybuses are comparable to Dublin Bus, Dart and Arrow services.

The trolleybuses cost a pittance and they run on time.
Beautiful - no
Functional - not too shabby

I grew up in Cork City and used to get the bus to UCC every day from an affluent part of the city.
Half the time I didn't know if it was broken down or late.
After a while, I just gave up and just walked it. For 3 out of 4 years.
Does this happen regularily in The Capital?

I've gotten the bus from Celbridge to the Dublin City Centre and that thing looked like it was from the 80s, felt like it was from the 50s and the only overhead electric cables were the ones that the pikeys had ripped out of the lighting fixtures.

To be fair, I' gave up on the bus a long time ago, so there may be big improvements, but according to the commuters in my office, there hasn't been.

About the Dart etc., never been on it. Nothing like it here.

Holland was amazing. The transport in Amsterdam is unlike anything I could imagine.

For long distance rail, Poland puts Ireland to shame.
I travelled Warsaw to Poznan to Krakow to Zakopane.

There were supposed to complete the railway to Midelton when I lived there about 5 years ago.
There was a railway to my town but they abandoned it in the 60s.

My brother tells me the Luas is pretty good but I wouldn't know anything about it.

Yes I’ve been to Cork and there is Public transport. It’s adequate enough for the size of the city

Well, Post it on PROC and see if the Corkonians agree.
As a non-drinker and a car owner, I'm not bothered.

and easily comparable to what you will find in Lithuania. The only difference is that the buses are not from the 80’s (like Vilnius) and are not powered by overhead cables.

My GF (Russian Lithuanian) would seem to disagree with you, she has started learning to drive as a result of the cost and frustrations here.

Its possible that I've been lucky with the buses I've gotten over there.
I accept your point though as you have been to more rural areas than I have.

I drove this road last April from Vilnius-Kaunas-Klaipeda and it was about the same standard as the N25 dual carriageway from Mallow to Cork most of the way. In other words nothing special. The thing I noticed was there were junctions on the motorway i.e. not separated like here.

About this particular road, I would agree with your point but this is one of the good roads I’ve already mentioned earlier.
How many roads of this quality are in Cork?

2 others, in patches.
This doesn’t exist a road like anywhere between Cork and the Mizen head, until you get to Tralee/Killarney.

In Ireland, Dublin gets excellent treatment and the rest of the country gets largely ignored. Understandably given the population density.
Unlikely to change for those same reasons (I can’t see myself living out here past 12 months)

I’m comparing it to Dublin-Portlaoise, Dublin to the Border and Dublin to Galway and many other projects being constructed or finished in the country .And this road is certainly not typical all over Lithuania

Well, first, there is still no motorway from Cork to Dublin like there is Kaunus to Vilnius. There are patches tho.
Portlaose to Dublin is all motorway tho, and a pleasure for me to drive on the rare occasion I get a chance to.
Hard to describe but when I enter Portlaoise until Monaghan, I feel like I’m in the Celtic Tiger zone.

The one road we do have to this standard is the Watergrasshill Motorway.

Now, Have you been to CastleMartyr?

Irish cities have not got this linear relationship with the capital i.e. they have a radial one.

All of the roads in Cork are radial if you ask me
A motorway connecting the two main population centres is a necessity in any country.

Also the topography of Lithuania is completely different so the engineering involved is not the same.

Agree. And also in Poland, very flat country.

So what? We barely had Motorways at all prior to 2000.Hovw Many Lithuanian A roads have been built since Independence?

Good point.
Another good point is to see the standard of the roads and motorways they will build when they have comparable EU funding.

I’m not from Dublin. I grew up in the South East and for a time in Kerry. I Have many relatives in West Cork and Kerry

There is an excellent road from Waterford to Dublin

I would need to go back at least to the early 70s to get to to a time when provincial Ireland was in the state that provincial Lithuania is. In fact you would probably have to go back to the 50’s in Ireland to see the last time people depending on their main possession of one cow for their milk supply. Or no running water and a latrine (A hole in the ground with a shed around it) for a toilet. Many thousands of rural Lithuanians are still living like this.

I am here showing this to my friends and they are laughing in disbelief at what you’ve written!
They think you’re confused between Lithuanian and Belarus or Uganda.

My friend from Klaipeda explained that these homes if they exist usually belong to the elderly who live in absolute poverty and equated it to travellers in Ireland on a halting site.
They said there may exist a person here and there who lives that this, but definitely not in the hundreds, not to mention thousands.
There are not many not young people as they migrate toward cities, Kaliningrad or to UK/Ireland.
These people frequently rely on a minimal state pension, and equally as frequently are burgaled.

In the few rural areas I’ve been to in Lithuania, the houses have mostly been 2nd homes/holiday homes. I’ve seen latrines here, but I’ve seen the same thing in extremely old country houses in West Cork, but honestly never seen anything even remotely like the picture you’re painting.

I have been to a number of rural areas in Poland, Central between Poznan and Lodz and Southern between Krakow and Zakopane, and definitely never encountered anything like this.

The last time I was in the National Park in Vilnius, there was an Aston Martin exhibition. Never seen anything like this in Ireland to be honest, although Kinsale and Crookhaven would have a similar thing with Yachts.

The Lithuania I’m familiar with is the one of students sitting in the Akropolis and going ice skating.

Its clear we have had significantly different experiences and I would urge you’re brother to relocate if he is living in these conditions.

Given that you seem to have a visited more rural locations than me, all I can say is that I take your word for it and I’m genuinely surprised. I’ve honestly never encountered anything of the sort.
Speaking for Poland, I would say the same thing.

Have you ever been to Anyksciai or Ukmerge?

No, but my buddy says they are “deep, dark villages” on par with Ukraine.

Have you been to Drushkininkai?

I was in the Aqua park there in September with my girlfriend, not beautiful, but certainly a country mile from the above.

Vast swathes of the Lithuanian countryside are covered in glorified shacks that pass for housing. At least 15% of the housing stock is like this. Don’t try and say the west of Ireland is like this.

There is a tax dodge in Lithuania that you don’t pay property tax on a property which is not yet complete.
Honestly, if you took Goleen as an example, I would say we’re talking about the same kind of place.

Another 60% is Soviet era “Ballymuns”. Which anyone who goes there can obviously see.

I’ve been to these Soviet era Ballymuns.
In Kaunas for example, around Mazoj, there former military barracks converted into housing.
They cost a pittance and there is little to compare it to in Ireland.
You ought to see some of the crap on the Northside of this city that passes for housing.

For the other ones, my only problem is that they’re too small for my liking.
I cannot vouch for the blocks outside of Kaunas or Vilnius, but I have seen worse in Ireland.

And a large portion of the stock that is luxury is owned or built by corrupt local versions of the Russian oligarchs.

As opposed to the property magnates in Ireland.
Same thing with a different name.
Look at the Anglo Report.

At least they can get a house, unlike in Ireland where you had to take 10 times your income.

And the west of Ireland is not rural Lithuania it is 30 years ahead AT LEAST in living standards

I hear what your saying, but I’ve yet to see anything to convince me of it.
I would say if you’re at the top, or close to it, the quality of life in Ireland is a lot better.
Below that, there is no appreciable difference, other than their cost of living is more expensive relative to their income, they have less disposable income and are less likely to borrow in order to fund an extravagant lifestyle as is/was commonplace in Ireland.

Both of which is far worse than Ireland. Independently verified.


http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/2008-EHCI/EHCI-2008-figures-tables.doc

I already discussed that report earlier if you scroll up.
While I and members of my family and colleagues have had bad experiences with the HSE, I accept that not all people do.
And while I have had good experiences with the Lithuanian and Polish health services, I cannot accept that not all people do.

My point was that, we don’t get the bang for the buck or anything close to it.

So bribery is common practice in Lithuania.

Yes, I wouldn’t dispute that for a second.
Was also very common in Poland but I’ve not been over for a while.

I’m talking about a sixty year old native Lithuanian and not a visiting Irish person.

It’s not common to have to bribe police, GP’s or public servants here. Granted there have been cases but it’s relatively rare. I don't see your point in saying their scams.
[/quote[
I think if you speak to anybody in or from Lithuania, they will be able to explain this to you in under 3 minutes. Ask about the First Aid kits in the cars.

Our public servants have just taken a 10% paycut.
Lets watch and see if the bribery rate increases.

But you’re a foreigner. This would explain the different attitude.

As opposed to the different attitude that my girlfriend gets here at the hospital or the social welfare office (after 3 years working): i.e. Sod off back to your own country, stop taking our jobs and our money

Correction, a foreigner who speaks Polish and Russian.

I hate the Lithuanian language and refuse to learn it, if they don’t speak Russian or Polish, I speak English.

But the fact is as far as corruption goes Lithuanian is far worse than Ireland and in fact is one of the worst countries in the developed world.

Well, this is so far off the original discussion and not the point I was trying to make, but its quite typical of the generalisations I hear about EE, quite even more ironic if you’ve been reading newspapers over the last 3 or 4 weeks, so I should have a crack off it anyway.

Given that this discussion has arisen out of the worst corruption, unprecendented in this country, I think we may need to revise the figures.
I don’t dispute there is a lot of corruption in Lithuania.
I find it difficult to accept that they are anymore corrupt than we are at higher levels.
You may have written this before recent events to be fair tho.

I do however accept that their level of corruption extends further down the chain than does here, given public sector renumeration.
I believe this will change in Ireland given the pension levy as we face into defecit crisis.

I also believe that we are not half as transparent as we would like to believe.
Its shockingly obvious that the corruption in Ireland exposed over recent weeks has been an international disaster and embarrassment, if not unexpected.
At the moment, we make look Bulgaria look good.

At this stage, its quite unusual if our Taoiseach manages to finish his political career without a tribunal or allegations of corruption.

Not only this but it has been independently verified that Lithuanian Health care is among the worst in the EU.

Ok, well explain to me this.
My Gf’s mother has a brain tumour and waited 2 weeks for kemo and treatment etc.
My uncle has prostate cancer going on a bit and is still waiting.

Are we really so advanced?

I understand the facts and the figures, but I think they’re distorted – Kind of like the Irish GDP vs. GNP.

Ireland on the other hand has average healthcare which corresponds with average expenditure.

Again, going back to my original point, and as outlind by NESF earlier if you read the thread, we do not get “bang for the buck” in Ireland.

Analogy:
I drive a 10 litre car – HSE – I get to Dublin in 2 hours at a cost of 600 euro
You drive a 2 litre car – LTH – you get to Dublin 3 hours at a cost of 100 euro.

“We do not have a health service in line with our half our wealth or expenditure”

Lithuania is not poor by international standards. I also never said they were backward. I’m making the point that a few glitzy skyscrapers in the centre of Vilnius motorways do not make a progressive country.And btw you introduced skyscrapers into the debate.I was the one who pointed out their irrelevance.
[/quote[

Well, you’ve been citing a lot of urls, so its time I contributed one:
http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm/richest_european_union_countries

Ireland – 2nd (2nd Richest in the EU)
Lithuania – 24th ( 2nd Poorest in the EU)
Poland – 23rd (3rd Poorest in the EU)

Ireland lists higher in some places.
International is a whole different debate and makes Ireland look considerably worse.


Kaunas and Klaipeda are the same. In this context it is easier for them to build skyscrapers but this in itself proves nothing.You can go to any African capital and find ultra modern skyscrapers with people in povert outside it.In fact a preocuppation with skyscrapers can betray an inferiority complex in a people as much as sign of progress

Your point about Africa was the irrelevant bit, not the skyscrapers.
Its easy to build sky scrapers in Moscow or New York, but not much to do with Ireland or Lithuania.

Well, actually, motorways and skyscrapers do tend to feature in a progressive country. You’d want to give Dubai a call and let them know.

It could but Estonia doesn’t seem to have this problem to the same degree and Italy is in the same league

Estonia definitely has this problem.

In geopolitical terms, Italy is a different entity, and the Southern poor regions are notorious for tinpot dictatorship.

That would be great except that they are dictators and no more competent than the average public servant here. As for hungover workers. Again a bigger problem in Lithuania than in Ireland except maybe change hungover to drunk.

LOL, I can’t defend this comment, you answer a generalisation with a generalisation which is only fair and in truth, you’re quite accurate about it J

Yes my Brother in Law and his family live in one in Vilnius and they are sh!t. Any comfort in them is down to the endeavors of the occupiers.My brothers ex grew up in Connolly tower in Ballymun before the regeneration project and they were better. What is more my mother in law is living in a house (One of the better ones) where the heating is centrally controlled by the local govt. i.e it goes on when they say and goes off when they say.

This is true and a disgrace I agree.
On the other hand, personally speaking, I’m afraid to turn my gas on except on the coldest days gas because of the price of gas. I would consider myself firmly middle class and I’m mid twenties.
The same would go for most of my friends in my age group.

This is opinionated drivel Theiy’re both consumer societies and both have experienced a property bubble. Don’t try and claim something ridiculous like Irish people are not as into clothes and cars as Lithuanians are.

Well, my sister lives in Germany, she has an excellent job in a University and they all rent their homes. It’s a similar thing.
I’ve never heard of an obsession with property like we have had in the UK and Ireland.
There has been a property bubble in both Poland and Lithuania.
The difference is the quality of the homes people have built.
Many of the new houses I’ve seen in Poland are fabulous 6 bedroom houses.
In Ireland, you would be blessed to have bought a 2 bedroom apartment for the equivalent expenditure.

I cannot believe you disagree with this point about fashion.
Irish people are unquestionably less fashion conscious than Lithuanians when it comes to clothes and cars.
A brief survey of the Lithuanians with any disposable income in Ireland would prove that to you.

For example, Irish people will buy a 08 BMW.
Lithuanians will buy a 98 Audi, tint the windows etc.

I don’t see how I’ve proven your point. The main thing that has aided Broadband implementation in Lithuania is a legacy of the Soviet era. You’re going on like broadband is the solution to all our problems if only!

You’ve clearly proven my point. Read back if you don’t understand.
I’m a computer science graduate, I work in IT.
I can’t get broadband, even though I live in a commuter town.
The governments answer is to use the 3G system.
The sales people themselves have advised me against it, warning its not suitable.
I depend on broadband for my livelihood, currently driving to my father’s house in the city everyday until its resolved.
My father lives in the most affluent area of the city and cannot get ADSL.
He has wirelss.

Would you tell a butcher to go without knives? Why can’t you understand?

Broadband is the solution to a lot of our problems.

Kaunas Airport has been upgraded recently if you’ve seen it, its quite nice now.
It was terrible before, however, it was a Russian Airforce base.
Cork Airport is not vastly better, it only services two destinations, Ireland and the UK.

If you don’t understand why the focus of my argument is broadband, you need to go back to the very first post I made in this thread.

Have you flown through Kaunas airport? How does this compare to Cork airport? It doesn’t a fair comparison is probably Farranfore or Knock which is also a former Russian FA aerodrome.

Of course, my gf’s family live in Kaunas.

To compare Cork Airport to Kaunas.
The Airport are in colossal debt as a result of the governments lies.
They only service 3 destinations. (Southern Spain, UK and Holland)
No need to go into the recent death of Shannon.
Much like Lithuania, if you want to fly anywhere from Ireland, you have to drive to Dublin, as my bank account knows only too well.

30km is the countryside outside a small city like Cork which by rights should be no more than a 2,5 mile radius from its centre if it say had the pop. density of Vilnius.This is also only Domestic broadband.

Not only domestic broadband

There are a number of large IT businesses in West Cork who are tearing their hair out (some employ in excess of 150 people)

Infrastructure is only one factor you can judge a countries progressiveness on.here is a whole host of other things that need to be considered than just broadband penetration.

If you don’t recognise the importance broadband has for business and the future of this country, you don’t understand the nature of business or the future of industry in this country.

Do you know who Ireland’s biggest employer is?
Who the second biggest employer was?

Google, Intel, Dell, McAfee, Motorola, Microsoft…………..these are just a sample of the world leading names that have or have had their European HeadQuarters in Ireland over the past 5 years.

They’re not crappy factory jobs with low pay.
And they’re generally not manufacturing jobs which relocate at the first sign of trouble.

The education system, the airports, the housing stock,Social services, the sea ports, the telecoms system, sanitation, social housing and services. in general are just a few examples. Lithuanian standard of living has actually decreased since Independence.

Sorry to break it to yeh but 30km is the countryside outside a small city like Cork which by rights should be no more than a 2,5 mile radius from its centre if it say had the pop. Density of Vilnius,Klaipeda or Kaunas

I don’t know how to make it simpler to understand.

There is a scheme in Ireland to deal with broadband penetration, for people like myself who live outside the main cities in commuter towns.

Your argument is that its tough luck for people living out here, despite the fact that the government currently have a bill passed to deal specifically with this issue and are paying out a lot of money to deal with the issue.

We have fibre optic cables the length and breadth of the country which aren’t even in use.
Domestic broadband users are held to ransom by Eircom, regardless of the ISP they use.

Can you really not see the logic here at all?

I’m sorry but I don’t know how to genuinely simplify it more than that.

Perhaps but that isn’t the point you will find this sort of incompetence in Lithuania and most other countries also.

Ok.
The #1 SMB in the country and European leader are in this town.
One of the top ranked companies in Ireland.

Could you imagine building a railway line but bypassing a train station?

FFS broadband again! Have you anything else to say!

FFS! Did you even read my opening post on this thread?

Anyway no thanks. I know the Senator along with Eddie Hobbs and a few others are having a field day at the moment but I prefer to get my information in a variety of places and not just some careerists.

Where would you like the information from?
http://www.netlink.ie/news/article/42.html

Is the national broadcaster credible enough for you?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1125/broadband.html

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=3963

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/doc/factsheets/13thimplementation/9-13-ie.pdf
http://www.insideview.ie/irisheyes/2009/01/irish-rural-broadband-hoax.html

Judging by your posts the Irish inferiority complex and self loathing is alive and well

I’ll take the higher ground here and not going to attack your character.
You made reference to an inferiority complex in people who build skyscrapers.
I made reference to the property market in Ireland and the obvious inferiority complex prevalent throughout, currently being discussed all over this forum.

You’re clearly quite intelligent so it’s a shame you had to resort to the old reliable “if you can make a valid point, make a character attack”.
I think you simply didn’t bother to read any of my posts, given how misdirected all of you’re points have been.

Its no shame to be ignorant as to the state of broadband in Ireland, the shame is in trying to defend it.

If it is irrelevant then why did you introduce it in the case of Poland? And if it is incorrect then say how exactly. You will see skyscrapers in downtown Jo burg, Lagos and many other African cities that are the most corrupt and incompetent in the world. The point I made their presence means diddly squat.

Irrelevant in the case of Africa.
The key word here is incompetence.
Honestly, did you actually read any of the previous posts in this thread?
The initial comparison was Ireland and Russia which was modified to Ireland and Lithuania/Poland.
Trying to justify a comparison of Ireland and Africa as more fair than a comparison of Ireland and Russia, is not unlike trying to make your car go faster by bursting the tires.

Incorrect in the case of Poland in that it is very rare for a country to experience such a phenomenal increase in revenue and improvement of living conditions such as Ireland has experienced.
Is there a similar comparison within the EU?

The points you’re making (I would call it clutching at straws) went way beyond the initial scope of the thread, which was infrastructure and specifically, broadband infrastructure.

And I’m saying this is nonsense.Given the amount of corruption that is prevalent in that country compared to Ireland they would have done a worse job.The legacy of centralized Soviet planning has given them a huge dividend which they are eroding and following a pattern similar to our own, They holy grail of high speed broadband that you are judging both countries is not a fair criteria .

Ok, so I start a thread judging the incompetence of Ireland based on squandering of billions and our ability to construct broadband infrastructure relative to poorer countries, and you’re telling me this is not a fair criteria, but comparing the amount of Latrines in Lithuania somehow is, then you’re bringing Africa in the equation. And my argument is nonsense………………??

You ought to get a job working with Willie O’Dea fella, I think ye would see eye to eye.

Although this is one of the successes they have had. In Lithuanias case its success is probably related to two factors. It’s higher population density in three relatively large cities which is a legacy of Soviet central planning and the fact that they didn’t privatize their state telecoms company like we did. Granted eircom was a big mistake but it also needs to be considered it was the first privatization of a state utility in Ireland.

The Eircom fiasco happened a long time ago.
Giving our positions in IT and the importance of the industry to our economy, that is simply not an acceptable excuse.

Lets see some empirical evidence for that with a comparable country.

http://www.oecd.org/document/21/0,3343,en_2649_34325_36173013_1_1_1_1,00.html


You’ll be telling me next about the amount handkerchiefs in India J

Have a read off this when you get a chance tho
http://www.politics.ie/economy/39839-dell-cutting-1900-ireland-relocating-poland.html

I had a list of IT job losses bookmarked, which I cannot find.
But here is Ireland’s biggest employer.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0217/intel.html

If Intel leave, Celbridge will cease to exist overnight.
5000 people on the dole queue overnight and an extra E987,500 in social payments per week.

The money in this country was as much virtual as real. In absolute terms it was a lot less when high wages and a property bubble is taken into account. It also has to be judged in an international context. For example is incompetence here the exception or the norm.

If there was money to pay GAA players, Fas trips to Florida, buy Gulfstream jets, I’m sure they could scrape together a few bob to connect a fibre optic cable.

This is ignoring the obvious advantage of a boom as opposed to a consistent success.

http://www.healthdirect.co.uk/2008/06/nhs-npfit-white-elephant-hit-as-fujitsu.html

Wastage is common in countries that go through a boom. We make the mistake of thinking that 10 years of prosperity is enough to make us stand shoulder to shoulder with countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands. Many of which have had centuries of the wealth we have had in only a decade. Or else like have significant natural resources to add to the mix.

In the overall picture of health, that’s a good comment.
Check out Bermuda’s broadband penetration stats.

Less funds and lower wages and lower land costs and higer economy of scale in the case of Poland. A lot of Infrastructure that was already there and is not necessarily superior. Also these countries are not poor in an international context. Lets see how successful Poland is with achieving their Euro 2012 ambitions.

Already explained.
A boom gives all the advantages that sustained wealth doesn’t.
Revenues exceed pay rates and inflation.
Land costs don’t come into it – fibre optics are laid along railway lines which already belong to the state.
Economy of scale doesn’t enter into the matter when you’re talking about a once off construction of a backbone.

Least best people Bit of a snob yourself aren’t you? This truly is the pot calling the kettle black as well as the fact that it has no basis in reality.

Another Character attack?
Would you mind to explain that comment when you stop being Politically correct?
Otherwise go back to sleep.

femur61

Probally are the most incompetent country in Europe. But who voted in FF, who loved all the bull Bertie gave us , how great we were, how respected as a nation we were, how successful we are ect. Everyone is to blame, we took the money with open arms and didn't say we need better schools, better roads, better health and most importantly save for a rainy day. Its a complete farce that under 5s got €1,000, that we (me included) get so much on social welfare, that cival servants get paid so well, and most importantly what do we need so many ministers for. Read yesterday about Berties pension!:eek: