Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe?

Dannyboy83

thebman wrote: »

Online voting would be insecure or at least any vote done over it could be questioned IMO.

In fact I wouldn't be happy about any type of e-voting unless there was also a paper verification system in place. Both would probably be the ideal way of doing it with each voter having a receipt of who they voted for should both be called into question.

When I was in my penultimate year of Comp Sci, we made a voting system, full requirements, legal etc.
We came up against all of those problems and found rather straight forward ways around them.

If you can bank online, you can vote online.

I just don't necessarily understand why the political will isn't there.

Lemming

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

When I was in my penultimate year of Comp Sci, we made a voting system, full requirements, legal etc.
We came up against all of those problems and found rather straight forward ways around them.

If you can bank online, you can vote online.

I just don't necessarily understand why the political will isn't there.

There's a world of difference between doing something academically, and doing it in the real world and having it stand up to use/abuse/legality/etc.

If e-voting was so simple, it would have been done already. Long ago. The reason why it isn't so simple is because - unlike a bank which will have fraud/theft guaruantees, checks & balances in place - there is no comeback on the ballot box.

The solution I do not doubt is a simple one (most best solutions ultimately are). Nobody's come up with one that is reliable, robust, and tamper-proof, however.

thebman

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

When I was in my penultimate year of Comp Sci, we made a voting system, full requirements, legal etc.
We came up against all of those problems and found rather straight forward ways around them.

If you can bank online, you can vote online.

I just don't necessarily understand why the political will isn't there.

I think the main problem is to interfere with online banking, you need to know when someone is going to be using their online banking but a voting system has a known timeline for voting so the chances of a hack occurring are much higher on individuals votes (think mig in the middle type attack).

Then you have a problem with the system itself being hacked. It isn't even that it isn't possible, it is that the trust isn't there for the government to implement a fair system. It suits them to have a system with loop holes for them to exploit.

SirHenryGrattan

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe, or just the most incompetent country in Western Europe?

The short answer is no. The operative phrase is "Different countries, same sh*t".

ppthink

How long did it take the gov. to investgate Anglo after nationalisation? Over 2 months! They dont know whats going on in the other banks yet. 2 months before they deployed the fraud bureau to anglo. Do the have to netionalise AIB and BoI before they will find out how serious their books are. We need the "SEC"(security and exchange commission) here before we comprehend the severity of the situation. Until then we will live in utopia.

ppthink

Are people withdrawing their money from banks?

Tech3

No I dont think it is the most incompetent country in all of europe.

For those bashing about our poor infrastructure.

Roads: Over the last several years road infrastructure has greatly improved in our country. For those bashing what poor road infrastrucure I want them to look at the road network some 10 years ago. It was terrible. Come next year we will have over 1000km of motorway in the country. Dublin will be linked to all the major cities in the country by motorway. There will be some present dual cariageways resignated M to increase safety on our roads. Roads deaths
last year was the lowest recorded.

Rail: the western rail corridor is due to be completed this year linking limerick to galway by rail again.

I know FF have blown alot of money but road infrastrucure have been one area that has been invested heavily in but should have been done a lot earlier. Hindsight is great however.

Broadband is indeed very poor in this country with alot of rural areas with dialup is unacceptable and 20Mbits/s on average is a disgrace looking at other developed countries speeds

ejmaztec

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

The short answer is no. The operative phrase is "Different countries, same sh*t".

Ireland = deeper and crustier as a result of financial mismanagement, therefore the short answer is "Yes".

SirHenryGrattan

ejmaztec wrote: »

Ireland = deeper and crustier as a result of financial mismanagement, therefore the short answer is "Yes".

Ireland has a small open economy with a de-regulated financial system. Any Government that took action to "slow" the economy by say increasing income tax, increasing property taxes, regulating lending etc. would have been unceremoniously flung out by the electorate. Britain is in the same boat. Brown could have restricted mortgage lending to 3 times salary and 70% of the property value but nobody wants to commit political suicide. He could have regulated the merchant banks then watched them all desert London for Hong Kong or New York.

There was no "financial mismanagement". There was in fact "NO management" because Britain like Ireland has a free market economy. Britain has the highest personal indebtedness level in the world but no one forced us to borrow money. People have to take responsibility for personal decisions. Unfortunatly alot of people like you don't seem to understand this.

Johnboy Mac

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Ireland has a small open economy with a de-regulated financial system. Any Government that took action to "slow" the economy by say increasing income tax, increasing property taxes, regulating lending etc. would have been unceremoniously flung out by the electorate. Britain is in the same boat. Brown could have restricted mortgage lending to 3 times salary and 70% of the property value but nobody wants to commit political suicide. He could have regulated the merchant banks then watched them all desert London for Hong Kong or New York.

There was no "financial mismanagement". There was in fact "NO management" because Britain like Ireland has a free market economy. Britain has the highest personal indebtedness level in the world but no one forced us to borrow money. People have to take responsibility for personal decisions. Unfortunatly alot of people like you don't seem to understand this.

So there's nothing wrong with our Regulators? If so why have them at all?
FF has in a lot of peoples opinion & the media commited political suicide in the way they have handled our own domestic financial system.

SirHenryGrattan

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

So there's nothing wrong with our Regulators? If so why have them at all?
FF has in a lot of peoples opinion & the media commited political suicide in the way they have handled our own domestic financial system.

The political parties in countries with unregulated financial markets such as Ireland, Britain, Australia, the USA e.t.c. who were in power during the boom will suffer in the next election cycle, all other things being equal. The replacements will re-regulate the financial markets to avoid another crunch and the electorate will accept this. That's the way politics works.

Johnboy Mac

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

The political parties in countries with unregulated financial markets such as Ireland, Britain, Australia, the USA e.t.c. who were in power during the boom will suffer in the next election cycle, all other things being equal. The replacements will re-regulate the financial markets to avoid another crunch and the electorate will accept this. That's the way politics works.

You did'nt answer my questions.

And now you are back tracking about your comment about ''commiting political suicide''. As now you say those in power during the boom (a false boom, I may add) will suffer in the next election. Is that not political suicide?

thebman

tech2 wrote: »

Broadband is indeed very poor in this country with alot of rural areas with dialup is unacceptable and 20Mbits/s on average is a disgrace looking at other developed countries speeds

20MB/s is not the average BB in this country by a long way, it is more like 5 at most if even.

We pay the highest line rental in the world for the some of the poorest speeds and lines which don't get repaired.

20Mb/s is from a cable company where you don't pay line rental.

We have absolutely failed regulation in this area as our regulator is funded by the telco's they are supposed to regulate which is a failed system from the word go.

The rest of your post is very optimistic considering what should have been done in this time. Our roads may be improving but we are being taxed off them.

SirHenryGrattan

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

You did'nt answer my questions.

And now you are back tracking about your comment about ''commiting political suicide''. As now you say those in power during the boom (a false boom, I may add) will suffer in the next election. Is that not political suicide?

It's delayed suicide. Politicians are a bit like alcoholics. One Election at a time.

And it's not really a "comment", more a statement of fact. The FSA have just announced stringent new regulations for banking and financial markets and a hands on approach to enforcement.

NewDubliner

thebman wrote: »

We have absolutely failed regulation in this area as our regulator is funded by the telco's they are supposed to regulate which is a failed system from the word go.

But we did what the wise PDs said we should do? We took Eircom out of the wretched public sector, privitised it and opened up the market to competition so that 'market forces' would give everyone great service at low prices? Problem solved.

thebman

NewDubliner wrote: »

But we did what the wise PDs said we should do? We took Eircom out of the wretched public sector, privitised it and opened up the market to competition so that 'market forces' would give everyone great service at low prices? Problem solved.

The problem is one company started with 100% marketshare and no requirement to share infrastructure and the government said, now compete with them.

How the hell was that ever going to work? Competition would work better if the lines were kept in state control and each operator paid a contribution for maintenance.

Tech3

thebman wrote: »

20MB/s is not the average BB in this country by a long way, it is more like 5 at most if even.

We pay the highest line rental in the world for the some of the poorest speeds and lines which don't get repaired.

20Mb/s is from a cable company where you don't pay line rental.

We have absolutely failed regulation in this area as our regulator is funded by the telco's they are supposed to regulate which is a failed system from the word go.

Ok fair point I might be a tad bit off on the broadband point but I do feel it is a disgrace and I know we are being overcharged for what we are recieving.

The rest of your post is very optimistic considering what should have been done in this time.

What do you find optimistic regarding my post. Nearly ever road and rail project is on target for completion for that specified date if not earlier. Being an exception maybe the M8 portlaoise- cullahill scheme is not as advanced as others.

As regards the phase 1 of the western rail corridor the Limerick - Athenry line is due to be completed in June this year.

Our roads may be improving but we are being taxed off them.

For a PPP the banks or investors expect to get something back for funding a large project. Also I would rather pay 2 euro for a toll than be dead on a windy 2 lane road.

thebman

tech2 wrote: »

Ok fair point I might be a tad bit off on the broadband point but I do feel it is a disgrace and I know we are being overcharged for what we are recieving.

What do you find optimistic regarding my post. Nearly ever road and rail project is on target for completion for that specified date if not earlier. Being an exception maybe the M8 portlaoise- cullahill scheme is not as advanced as others.

As regards the phase 1 of the western rail corridor the Limerick - Athenry line is due to be completed in June this year.

For a PPP the banks or investors expect to get something back for funding a large project. Also I would rather pay 2 euro for a toll than be dead on a windy 2 lane road.

Not talking about PPP (no real problem with private companies getting a return on investment), I'm talking about the congestion charges and increasing green taxes coming in. So considering we are paying tolls to use our roads, why are we also paying for them through taxes? Why should we have to pay twice?

Also I'm more talking about the fact that we may have achieved some of these projects but there are a lot more that need doing, some of the routes are questionable and we spent many years p***ing away money on contracts that paid people even if the delays on a project were their fault throwing away money that could have been used on other infrastructure projects.

Things have improved but it isn't the great achievement you make it out to be. There have been far too many problems along the way that were easily avoidable.

Our public transport system overall is the laughing stock of Europe or at least it should be. No integrating ticket system and lack of public transport in certain areas. Not enough trains to meet demand in other areas.

So yes your being optimistic IMO. I don't think we are at the point of patting ourselves on the back for a job well done. I think there is more to do than we have done and I think we have failed to get as far as we should have given this was our period of max prosperity in this country as we played catch up to the rest of Europe. We are now debt ridden and cannot afford to start the projects that we should be starting when if things were run properly, we'd have the money IMO.

NewDubliner

ppthink wrote: »

Are people withdrawing their money from banks?

Trying to start a run are you?

Tech3

thebman wrote: »

Not talking about PPP (no real problem with private companies getting a return on investment), I'm talking about the congestion charges and increasing green taxes coming in. So considering we are paying tolls to use our roads, why are we also paying for them through taxes? Why should we have to pay twice?

Also I'm more talking about the fact that we may have achieved some of these projects but there are a lot more that need doing, some of the routes are questionable and we spent many years p***ing away money on contracts that paid people even if the delays on a project were their fault throwing away money that could have been used on other infrastructure projects.

Things have improved but it isn't the great achievement you make it out to be. There have been far too many problems along the way that were easily avoidable.

Our public transport system overall is the laughing stock of Europe or at least it should be. No integrating ticket system and lack of public transport in certain areas. Not enough trains to meet demand in other areas.

So yes your being optimistic IMO. I don't think we are at the point of patting ourselves on the back for a job well done. I think there is more to do than we have done and I think we have failed to get as far as we should have given this was our period of max prosperity in this country as we played catch up to the rest of Europe. We are now debt ridden and cannot afford to start the projects that we should be starting when if things were run properly, we'd have the money IMO.

Im totally against any extra taxes on transport but as our public finances are in a serious state money has to come from somewhere. Im not saying the government has done a good job but in fact a very poor job. I'm just pointing out that there is a significant different on some aspects of infrastructure in the country. I didnt mention anything regarding public transport. I do acknowledge that it is a disgrace and I would imagine alot weaker countries than us have a better system in place.

Yes the interurbans would have been completed now if there was no p***ing around and other major projects may have been done but again hindsight is a great thing. Were looking at basically no more projects starting in the near future even the PPP's have dried up now. What we had is gone and theres no point looking back on it now. The government have wasted what could have been.

NewDubliner

tech2 wrote: »

Im totally against any extra taxes on transport

Apart from the extra revenue, taxes on transport might serve to discourage people who choose to live far from ports and centres of employment & production. If people lived in cities, we would not need such expensive road projects.

The new game should be not getting heavily into debt building new infrastructure, but learning to use what we have more efficiently. We have to stop playing by the construction industry rules. They're part of the problem.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

NewDubliner wrote: »

Apart from the extra revenue, taxes on transport might serve to discourage people who choose to live far from ports and centres of employment & production. If people lived in cities, we would not need such expensive road projects.

The new game should be not getting heavily into debt building new infrastructure, but learning to use what we have more efficiently. We have to stop playing by the construction industry rules. They're part of the problem.

By this, you mean encouraging people to drive...? In this age, one cannot be so fortunate as to 'choose' where one works, and if there's distance involved, so be it.

lukasbasic

Ireland is geographically a part of europe (is it?), but technically it is a 3rd world farming country

Dannyboy83

NewDubliner wrote: »

Apart from the extra revenue, taxes on transport might serve to discourage people who choose to live far from ports and centres of employment & production. If people lived in cities, we would not need such expensive road projects.

The new game should be not getting heavily into debt building new infrastructure, but learning to use what we have more efficiently. We have to stop playing by the construction industry rules. They're part of the problem.

How would you deal with:
Rent? Property prices? Land Prices? Congestion? Overburdened Public services? H&S? Fire?
What about decentralisation?

Tech3

NewDubliner wrote: »

Apart from the extra revenue, taxes on transport might serve to discourage people who choose to live far from ports and centres of employment & production. If people lived in cities, we would not need such expensive road projects.

The new game should be not getting heavily into debt building new infrastructure, but learning to use what we have more efficiently. We have to stop playing by the construction industry rules. They're part of the problem.

In case you dont know none of our cities are still not connected by any decent means of transport. We still have to wait another year for Dublin our main city to be connected with Cork our second largest city by motorway. We are in a league of our own when it comes to poor transport for developed countries. I guess living in Dublin there is some decent services so it doesnt really matter about the rest of Ireland. I find your post a little ant-west.

So what is going to happen to the construction industy? We are hardly going to retrain all of them. As mention by some political partys a huge amount of schools need to be built also. The amount of money the state is wasting every year on prefabs is unacceptable. The NDP needs to be replanned for what our needs are at this moment in time and also our public finances are totally different to what they were when the original NDP was released.

thebman

lukasbasic wrote: »

Ireland is geographically a part of europe (is it?), but technically it is a 3rd world farming country

From reading your brief post history, you seem to have a big problem with anything Irish anyway even going so far as to say a hot Irish women doesn't exit in one post.

You'll excuse me if I ignore your opinion on the subject.

NewDubliner

tech2 wrote: »

none of our cities are still not connected by any decent means of transport.

True, they are all connected by decent transport as you say.

tech2 wrote: »

I find your post a little ant-west.

The west has nice scenery. If you want work, come to Dublin or Cork.

Tech3

NewDubliner wrote: »

True, they are all connected by decent transport as you say.


The west has nice scenery. If you want work, come to Dublin or Cork.

Ok then can you tell me which would make more sense.

a. Drogheda town which has a motorway running all the way to the capital. b. Limerick, Cork or Galway which still have tight bendy single cariageway road running to dublin.

centralisation wont work in my opinion. Could you tell me what would be the advantages of this?

I do work in a city in fact but I come from a county which the state has rarely funded for during this so called boom. Your reply seems to have proved my point. Your ideas dont seem very fair on equality and a fair soceity.

NewDubliner

tech2 wrote: »

centralisation wont work in my opinion. Could you tell me what would be the advantages of this?

We concentrate services, housing and employment: less commuting, people can cycle to work, less distance for goods to travel, less piping for water and sewage, less electric cable, we get economies of scale. There would be ease of redeployment from one job to another. It's logical. We've been wasting money supporting small towns that came into existance for reasons that were valid in the 19th century and which are no longer valid now. Cities are the future.

Why won't centralisation work?

tech2 wrote: »

Your ideas dont seem very fair on equality and a fair soceity.

I'm all for fairness and equality: Let the west pay its own way. That's fair and equal.

thebman

NewDubliner wrote: »

True, they are all connected by decent transport as you say.

The west has nice scenery. If you want work, come to Dublin or Cork.

Forcing people to move to one of 2 cities is not sustainable. It forces the cost of living up in these areas rather than down. It is cheaper to buy a lot of goods in small towns outside of Dublin than it is in Dublin.

Also this ignores peoples desire to work outside Dublin and as cost of living is cheaper outside Dublin, it is easier to attract businesses to these areas as long as these areas have the necessary infrastructure that the business needs.

It would seem to be in our interest in the long term therefore to invest in these areas so companies will want to locate there as they can pay lower wages for the same work.

Also forcing everyone to move from the country to the cities isn't desirable for a large percentage of the population (arguably a majority of people) and so should not be considered to be in the interests of the state IMO.