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Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe?

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    #182
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    I would agree with all of the above.

    Also shoving more people into cities will not work. Our cities would not cope with the extra burden of double or treble the current population. More services would be needed.

    There would be little or no services for people in local areas far away from cities and no towns to go to.


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    #183
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    Forcing people to move to one of 2 cities is not sustainable. It forces the cost of living up in these areas rather than down. It is cheaper to buy a lot of goods in small towns outside of Dublin than it is in Dublin.
    That's because Dublin has been subsidising the provinces directly and indirectly. This has to stop. I'd be in favour of taxing long-distance commuters as a way of recouping some of the money spent sustaining their otherwise uneconomic mansions in picturesque rural idylls. This will also help free up the roads for more productive use and will avoid us having to spend billions on new
    ones.
    tech2 wrote:
    Our cities would not cope with the extra burden of double or treble the current population. More services would be needed.
    It's cheaper to extend the services in a city where people live more closely together.

    Dublin jobs for people who live in Dublin.


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    #184
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's because Dublin has been subsidising the provinces directly and indirectly. This has to stop. I'd be in favour of taxing long-distance commuters as a way of recouping some of the money spent sustaining their otherwise uneconomic mansions in picturesque rural idylls. This will also help free up the roads for more productive use and will avoid us having to spend billions on new
    ones.

    So I take it your against EU funding for infrastructure projects and are going to insist that our government pay back Germany and other countries that have given funds for development in Dublin?

    The whole point of investing in other areas is to build them up so they are sustainable. Have you ever actually being outside of Dublin? Every house outside of Dublin is not a rural uneconomic picturesque mansion. Sounds like you don't know what your talking about.
    It's cheaper to extend the services in a city where people live more closely together.

    Dublin jobs for people who live in Dublin.

    It may be cheaper to extend services in a city but Dublin is already an urban sprawl and commute times are so large, it can't sustain more people which is why people are commuting from Longford to work each day at the moment.


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    #185
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    So I take it your against EU funding for infrastructure projects and are going to insist that our government pay back Germany and other countries that have given funds for development in Dublin?
    No, just that we stop pumping Dublin taxpayer's money into the provinces.
    thebman wrote: »
    The whole point of investing in other areas is to build them up so they are sustainable.
    That may be the point, but that is not what has been accomplished. The smaller towns are not sustainable. The money has been wasted. Why do you think that having failed to sustain industry, they went cap-in-hand to the government to have thousands extra public service jobs created to fill expensive offices in these towns?

    The new roads have just made it easier to commute into Dublin. The long commutes by people who choose more attractive & cheaper houslng at long distances from where they work have enabled a inefficient economy of people living outside of Dublin while commuting there.
    th ebman wrote: »
    It may be cheaper to extend services in a city but Dublin is already an urban sprawl and commute times are so large,
    Not if you live near where you work. And, if we can eliminate all those long-distance commuters from the roads, public and commercial transport will move more easily. We can't force people to move house, but we can decide to concentrate employment in easily serviced locations and incentivise people who make cost-effective commuting decisions.
    thebman wrote: »
    It can't sustain more people which is why people are commuting from Longford to work each day at the moment.
    Dublin has plenty of untapped development capacity. For example, there are huge brown-field sites in Dublin 8. There are plenty of houses for sale and rent in Dublin. People are commuting because Longford cannot sustain jobs. It's a failed economy. A town whose economic raison d'etre has passed into history. Money invested in Dublin or Cork is more likely to be productive than in towns such as Longford.

    If we're to be competitive, we have to make changes to our society. This means living more efficiently.


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    #186
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    No, just that we stop pumping Dublin taxpayer's money into the provinces.

    So why is it fine for you in Dublin to get benefits from the EU when on an EU level, Dublin is just another unsustainable location (following your logic) but it is wrong for Dublin to try to develop the smaller locations.

    Dublin isn't sustainable, Ireland isn't sustainable following your logic. A market of 4 million people on an island stranded off the cost of Europe is not a good location for business. The EU should cut its losses and tell us to fook off and die.

    No company should locate here. Abandon ship.


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    #187
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    So why is it fine for you in Dublin to get benefits from the EU when on an EU level,
    We're not talking about EU money, we're talking about our own money. How best can we spend it?
    thebman wrote: »
    Dublin isn't sustainable
    It is.
    thebman wrote: »
    The EU should cut its losses and tell us to fook off and die.
    That's what is happening & that's why we need to be more efficient and take a hard look at the parts of the country that don't work.


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    #188
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    We're not talking about EU money, we're talking about our own money. How best can we spend it?

    Your a hypocrite. Its fine for the EU to help Ireland out but fook the country folk is basically your attitude or maximise what helps you which your fine to push for but I personally I'm not going to support you with such nonsense.

    When your the little fish, you want the big fish to help out but when your the big fish, fook the little fish.
    It is.

    Really, explain how? Without the EU, Ireland and Dublin would be nothing.
    That's what is happening & that's why we need to be more efficient and take a hard look at the parts of the country that don't work.

    They aren't. Despite people who share your attitude taking EU money but not wanting to contribute back, the EU is still going to bail us out of the financial mess, we got ourselves into after already helping us out for the past 20 years.


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    #189
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    When your the little fish, you want the big fish to help out but when your the big fish, fook the little fish.
    The country folk will be quite welcome, as always, to come live and work in Dublin, if they wish. By doing so they'll be helping to make Ireland more efficient.
    thebman wrote: »
    Really, explain how? Without the EU, Ireland and Dublin would be nothing.
    We're in a new chapter now and we need to re-invent Ireland. Our best chance is to concentrate on places where human and infrastructural resources are concentrated and the best efficiencies can be realised.
    thebman wrote: »
    we got ourselves into after already helping us out for the past 20 years.
    We got into the mess by spreading the money too widely in geographical terms, by injecting the money in the wrong places/towns and also by creating unnecessary public service jobs in favoured rural consituencies.


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    #190
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    The country folk will be quite welcome, as always, to come live and work in Dublin, if they wish. By doing so they'll be helping to make Ireland more efficient.

    I'm sure your welcome to go work in Germany, lets save time, money and be efficient and close the nation now. Hell, I'll pay for your ticket if you'll leave and promise not to come back.
    We're in a new chapter now and we need to re-invent Ireland. Our best chance is to concentrate on places where human and infrastructural resources are concentrated and the best efficiencies can be realised.

    Yes, there are plenty of other places with concentrated populations in Ireland just not on the same scale as Dublin. They are just as sustainable as Dublin on smaller scales. Just because you don't think they are sustainable does not make it so. Every other country invests in its smaller towns and villages, why are you suggesting Ireland be different? Why do you want to kill rural Ireland? Show me that everywhere outside Dublin isn't sustainable?
    We got into the mess by spreading the money too widely in geographical terms, by injecting the money in the wrong places/towns and also by creating unnecessary public service jobs in favoured rural consituencies.

    No, you don't know what your talking about again. We didn't get into the mess by spreading money around. Show me where that has been shown to be the root cause of our problems please?


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    #191
    ppthink
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭ppthink


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Trying to start a run are you?
    Far from it.But a nice stroll in the park has been ongoing for the last 3 to 4 months. People are using their savings to pay bills and loans. Go into some of the hardware stores and asked them are they selling many safes.
    Ask them why people are buying them. You will be surprised how many have been bought and why!


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    #192
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    I'm sure your welcome to go work in Germany, lets save time, money and be efficient and close the nation now. Hell, I'll pay for your ticket if you'll leave and promise not to come back.
    That won't be necessary if I contribute to the success of city. Part of that process will involve not wasting money supporting every hard-luck village in the country.
    thebman wrote: »
    Yes, there are plenty of other places with concentrated populations in Ireland just not on the same scale as Dublin. They are just as sustainable as Dublin on smaller scales.
    Grand, let's identify the places that work.
    thebman wrote: »
    Why do you want to kill rural Ireland?
    That's already been done by the people who live there.
    thebman wrote: »
    Show me that everywhere outside Dublin isn't sustainable?
    No, because it would be untrue. I never said that. I stressed the need to concentrate on urban areas. Dublin is our biggest and has the most resources. it is most likely to reward investment and to be the most flexible in being able to supply workers as needs change.
    thebman wrote: »
    Show me where that has been shown to be the root cause of our problems please?
    Adding to transport costs by encouraging long-distance commuters to clog roads needed for productive commercial traffic? Creating unnecessary commercial traffic by locating industries away from major ports? The huge cost of the totally unnecessary decentralisation project?

    All of your arguments are based on the past. Try to look into the future, it's a different place to the Ireland of the Celtic Tiger.


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    #193
    Orizio
    Registered Users Posts: 9,460 ✭✭✭Orizio


    Threads like this suggest to me Irish people have little knowledge about European politics. Worse then Italy? Portugal? Spain? Thats without going into Eastern Europe.

    I know its exceedingly hard to believe, and doesn't excuse anyone in the current government, but we have one of the better run, or just simply better, political systems in Europe.(assuming one counts Ireland as part of Europe)


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    #194
    Orizio
    Registered Users Posts: 9,460 ✭✭✭Orizio


    thebman wrote: »
    Really, explain how? Without the EU, Ireland and Dublin would be nothing.

    Its truly impossible for you to back up something like this.

    Beyond that, I suggest you look at how much money the EU has made out of the Irish fisheries, and then get back to us.


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    #195
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Orizio wrote: »
    Its truly impossible for you to back up something like this.

    Beyond that, I suggest you look at how much money the EU has made out of the Irish fisheries, and then get back to us.

    I've been hearing about this stolen irish fishing industry for a long time (mainly as a result of SimpleSam06, who appears to have disappeared from Boards for some reason). What mystifies me is why it wasn't capitalised on before Ireland joined the EU so that we could all be rolling in the cash generated from it?

    On the other hand, a large fishing industry didn't stop Iceland getting into serious financial trouble.

    I think that, had Ireland not joined the EU, and despite the fish, it would have been the largest retirement complex in Europe, if not the world.


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    #196
    Vyse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭Vyse


    NewDubliner I find your attitude to be extremly self centred and selfish and that`s coming from a fellow Dubliner. We live in the country Ireland not the country Dublin. Like it or lump it, it ain`t going to change.


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    #197
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Vyse wrote: »
    Like it or lump it, it ain`t going to change.
    The world has changed, so must we.


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    #198
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    The world has changed, so must we.

    There's change and then there's the destruction of society.


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    #199
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    There's change and then there's the destruction of society.
    Not destruction: change, evolution, adaptation to changed circumstances.


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    #200
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Not destruction: change, evolution, adaptation to changed circumstances.

    The problem is you've not outlined why these areas are unsustainable other than all of rural Ireland is unsustainable until it proves otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent is not how our system works.

    You clearly are starting from a biased point of view and want to only admit that rural areas are viable if they can prove they are.

    Rather than working from the perspective I think one should work from on the issue which would be that we want all our areas to be viable, which ones will this just not be possible for. Your taking pleasure in claiming rural Ireland isn't sustainable like you have wanted it to happen for years and are just glad the chance finally arose (you can claim this isn't the case but I won't believe you at this stage as it is clearly your agenda).

    Your coming across as:

    Roight, listen, roight. All raral areas as unsustainable and can be erradicamecated cos loike roight, I roight, dan't live there roight so its fine loike. I dan't want me tax money payin for those feckers but any tax they contribute should roightfully be put inta Luas and the loike cos Dublin is sustainable loike.

    You don't see how your biased on the issue at all and declare all your opinion as fact and we should agree because your from Dublin so you know best :rolleyes:

    The above is why it is impossible to take anything you say seriously IMO.


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    #201
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    The problem is you've not outlined why these areas are unsustainable other than all of rural Ireland is unsustainable until it proves otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent is not how our system works.
    You're confusing justice and economics.


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    #202
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You're confusing justice and economics.

    No I really haven't. You can't tell large amounts of the population to move, hell the majority and say prove you deserve to stay where you are. Try it, well I guess you have. If you've not noticed, people aren't supporting your crazy, hair brained scheme.

    Maybe if you rename it a final solution it will do better.


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    #203
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    I dont know many eastern europeans but I do know Phillippinos, British, some Indians and like a lot, have Irish friends in Spain, UK etc.

    Its an insult to compare us to the UK, that is to the Brits, I could walk in to the doc pay nothing, get my prescription nothing and low and behold I was allowed all this if I worked too.
    From what I've been told about Spain, clinics, no q's good service paid for in taxes
    These non Irish are astounded at the levels of incompetence of our Govt, despite massive corruption and ineptitude of their own places, they can still get, basic essential services.
    We have no right to say 3rd world

    Do I blame the Govt yes, they were in charge!
    Do I blame the people mostly yes, we got who we we voted in.

    Perhaps if we overhauled our over hyped education system then good govt, maybe health and our finances would follow.

    The system needs to be changed from the inside,
    I only heard one politician say that from one particular party.

    Cowen and his cohorts who-ever we need to vote these fools out
    and quit arguing among ourselves
    Greens, well some cant even get clean drinking water, what are they on about light f***ing bulbs OUT

    Multiple pensions? what is this whyyy, how can it be justified.

    Education is the only way forward, shortsighted/short term mentality politics, Id be happier with a dictator
    I know, Im ranting, Im glad I never voted for FF, it just doesnt make me feel too much better.

    McWilliams for el presidente??


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    #204
    femur61
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Merch wrote: »
    Perhaps if we overhauled our over hyped education system then good govt, maybe health and our finances would follow.

    The system needs to be changed from the inside,
    I only heard one politician say that from one particular party.

    McWilliams for el presidente??

    I agree with you we did pat ourselves on the back fo years on look how great we are, and why did we think that? Bertie. If any of these guys had lived or worked abroad they'd know how not great we are. That is our government system is, not the ordinary person.


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    #205
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    No I really haven't. You can't tell large amounts of the population to move, ....Maybe if you rename it a final solution it will do better.
    Nobody is telling anyone to move and your reference to the 'final solution' is totally inappropriate and downright absurd. You've run out of arguments..

    Public money needs to be invested strategically in locations that will generate the most economically sustainable return. That's hardly genocide, it's common sense.


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    #206
    cherrypicker555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭cherrypicker555


    Johnboy Mac wrote: »
    There's a good chance we are the most incompetent.

    If we are, there is several and maybe many reasons for this situation.

    One of the main reasons is Irelands general lack of population.

    We have say 4m, that's only 1/20th of the population of Germany and France, 1/15th of the U.K. and a 1/4 of The Netherlands.

    So, therefore with less people we have less quality fit for political office which is a major drawback and to compound this with less wealth & less major home grown industries due to a small population it makes it very difficult for this country. The parital solution is to demand the best politicans that we can muster with policies that but the country as a whole first - which is not happening.

    I'm in dispair when I look at our leaders etc, all I see is the 'GOMBEEN' mentality practiced everywhere.



    Yet Sweden has 7 million and has a car and arms industry, Denmark even less and its one of the most modern countries in Europe.

    Its a cultural thing, Ireland has always been an isolated backwater, it catholic culture has made it deeply conservative not just morally, but in terms of being progessive with ideas etc.

    Up to the 90s I cant think of any major infrastructure projects since indpendence bar building a power station.

    In the 60s the Japs were building the bullet train, other countries nuclear power stations our govts idea was getting us to dig peat bogs for turf, sums it up.

    Recent infrastructure progress is due to the EU.


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    #207
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Nobody is telling anyone to move and your reference to the 'final solution' is totally inappropriate and downright absurd. You've run out of arguments..

    Public money needs to be invested strategically in locations that will generate the most economically sustainable return. That's hardly genocide, it's common sense.

    No my point all along is you don't care if they are sustainable. You've got a gripe with rural Ireland and believe people in rural areas are living in "picturesque mansions" and should be punished for this. It is your gripe and you don't give a damn if they are sustainable or not which is why your points are all worthless as a result as you've never given any evidence that any areas are unsustainable, just keep going on about how they are because you say so and investment should be cut so these people are forced to move to cities and kill off rural Ireland once and for all so you can feel better about yourself.

    Good luck with that fantasy position. Your argument isn't from an economical perspective, your just using it to support your desires to not have a rural Ireland.


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    #208
    galwaydude
    Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭galwaydude


    New Dubliner you have a narrow view of what ireland should be like. Have you ever been outside of dublin. Lets look for solutions for ireland economic problems not adding to them with your attitude. Dublin is not the be all and end all if ireland.

    This government has failed the people of ireland. We all got greedy during the boom years and now we are paying for it.

    If you think ireland is bad try looking at the states. It is a mess here. Bailouts for everybody from banks to the auto industry with paper money that the tax payer. Here where i live in MA the local government makes the irish government look like saints, corruption everywhere.


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    #209
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    No my point all along is you don't care if they are sustainable.... result as you've never given any evidence that any areas are unsustainable,......your just using it to support your desires to not have a rural Ireland.
    Everywhere should economically justify any investment they are demanding. Cities are more efficient and present the best environenemt for cost-effective sustainable jobs. There's also the issue of the carbon footprint

    It's up to you to prove that money would be better spent invested & spread out in every town, village, parish and townland in rural Ireland. Until then, I'm not going to invest in you... I'm out.

    Rural Ireland will survive just fine without extra housing developments, pollution, ring roads, congestion, shopping malls and SUVs. Indeed, tourists will find it much more attractive.

    I want to save rural Ireland, you want to pave it over.


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