Should Croker Bowl be completed?

cson

An Citeog wrote: »

A few of the stadiums in Germany have a seated tier on top of a terrace. The RheinEnergieStadion in Cologne holds about 50,000, with about 8,000 of these on the terraces in the north and south stands.

Yeah I was about to say the same myself. Its a pretty common thing in Germany to have terrace and seating in the same stand. Love that Cologne stadium too. On a Croker scale this baby in the Westfalenstadion of Dortmund would be along the size lines - biggest terrace in Europe iirc. Seats in the top 3rd of the stand too, easy enough to miss.



Definitely think as a long term development the Hill could be incorporated with a seated upper tier along with the creation of a Croke Park stop on the rail line which would help with transport issues. However such a development would likely cost a huge amount of money given the ancilliary issues. Btw, now is the time for the GAA to start buying up those houses on the Cloniffe Road if they do have intentions of further development in the future.

conf101

Lads there already is a train station at Croke Park. Drumcondra station is right beside it!

Xavi6

Deleted User wrote: »

Who cares if it looks unfinished? It is a magical place. I love it there. As a Dub I got to see Tyrone hammer us from the most atmospheric stand I've ever been in. The Dublin -v- Kerry game the year before had a genuinely electric atmosphere.

Leave the Hill alone, it gives the place a unique aspect and it's a place of special memories for people from all counties.

I never said they should do anything to the Hill. Just build over it.

blackbelt

conf101 wrote: »

Lads there already is a train station at Croke Park. Drumcondra station is right beside it!

Unfortunately,not a lot of people think about that.Come out of the station,cross the road and walk left for ten seconds and turn right and you are in Croker in 5 mins.Plus the idea of having another train station right behind the Hill and/or Croke Park is unsustainable,even moreso than the proposed stand.

As for buying the houses from the residents in Clonliffe Road,it is a total non runner and I am not too sure how big the residents back gardens are.In such a case they'd have to apply to buy the garden from the residents for construction and at that the stadium would be right on top of the houses basically.

The stadium is fine.No need to spend money on something which is not feasible.The point has been made that Croke Park is only full 3-4 times a year.Building a stand above the Hill would invariably drown out the noise the Hill makes (esp on Dublin match days) and would cost the GAA more money for manning the stand when it is empty.

IIMII

I was under the impression that the GAA had been buying these properties already? Might be wrong, but I thought I'd read or heard this in an interview a few years back

markfla

According to Liam Mulvihill, they did contemplate building the full bowl but because they decided to keep croker open during the construction phases they couldn't. He also said if they closed croker down fully during construction they could have rotated the pitch 90 degrees and would have had planety of space to do the full enclosure, if you notice behind the Cusack stand there is a huge concrete yard area on the property of croker, they could have had the hill like the Davin end in there and have the cusack run along the canal.

hunter164

Croke Park should be left as it is, every stand has a different meaning and character. The Hill is full of history. And the rubble may not be there but it's still the Hill and it still contains the memories. Building a stand over it would ruin that character imo. Leave Croke Park as it is, in my eyes it is the most beautiful stadium in the world.

Blackjack

markfla wrote: »

According to Liam Mulvihill, they did contemplate building the full bowl but because they decided to keep croker open during the construction phases they couldn't. He also said if they closed croker down fully during construction they could have rotated the pitch 90 degrees and would have had planety of space to do the full enclosure, if you notice behind the Cusack stand there is a huge concrete yard area on the property of croker, they could have had the hill like the Davin end in there and have the cusack run along the canal.

One of the many good things about the Croke park re-development was that not one game was re-located as a result of the construction.

It's fine as it is. 68,000 seater with a full capacity of 82,500 - the seating capacity alone makes it a massive stadium.

Daysha

Blackjack wrote: »

One of the many good things about the Croke park re-development was that not one game was re-located as a result of the construction.

That was quite the achievement alright. You wouldn't see a redevelopment of that scale with matches continuing as normal any were else in Europe thats for sure.

yahoo_moe

hunter164 wrote: »

Croke Park should be left as it is, every stand has a different meaning and character. The Hill is full of history. And the rubble may not be there but it's still the Hill and it still contains the memories.

But if the new Cusack Stand and the Davin Stand still have their history despite being completely different to what they used to be, then surely a redeveloped Hill would still have that history and those memories too?

I personally would agree with Xavi - it's not just about capacity... the Hill is actually quite ugly at the moment. Plus I don't actually like the atmosphere on there (in certain areas anyway) a fair amount of the time anyway (though it also has its great times in fairness).

For me, it all depends on whether the GAA ever intend to try and host UEFA Cup/Champions League finals, etc. which I'd imagine they wouldn't be awarded at present.

IIMII

yahoo_moe wrote: »

For me, it all depends on whether the GAA ever intend to try and host UEFA Cup/Champions League finals, etc. which I'd imagine they wouldn't be awarded at present.

Would the relevent authorities not be looking to host that in the new soccer stadium?

hunter164

yahoo_moe wrote: »

But if the new Cusack Stand and the Davin Stand still have their history despite being completely different to what they used to be, then surely a redeveloped Hill would still have that history and those memories too?

No imo it wouldn't.

blackbelt

I took a picture of Hill/Nally entrance with the rail line at the side when I was coming home this evening.Construction does not look feasible at all.There is no room.

Here is the pic.

croker.jpg

IIMII

There is if you buy property on the other side of the line. Hasn't there been property bought down through the years to make the space the current version of the park is on?

yahoo_moe

IIMII wrote: »

Would the relevent authorities not be looking to host that in the new soccer stadium?

Well the Europa League (UEFA Cup) final is slated for Landsdowne/Aviva in a few years - but that wouldn't necessarily stop the GAA also wanting to go after such money.

Hunter, don't understand your logic really - if the Hogan Stand (and its memories of Bloody Sunday and All-Ireland presentations) can be redeveloped, I really don't see the difference with the Hill.

Daysha

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Well the Europa League (UEFA Cup) final is slated for Landsdowne/Aviva in a few years - but that wouldn't necessarily stop the GAA also wanting to go after such money.

Hunter, don't understand your logic really - if the Hogan Stand (and its memories of Bloody Sunday and All-Ireland presentations) can be redeveloped, I really don't see the difference with the Hill.

Because there is a uniqueness about the Hill which none of the other stands have. Just like the Kop in Anfield has this vast single tiered stand that creates this amazing atmosphere, the Hill has this unique, sloping terrace which provides the best atmosphere and colour at any major GAA match.

Look at it this way. Anfield has been redeveloped quite a bit in the past few decades, yet the Kop has been largely untouched, and rightly so. Could you imagine if they redeveloped it into a two/three tiered stand with some corporate boxes and premium seating in between? It would never happen.

Same with the Hill.

K-9

deise59 wrote: »

Because there is a uniqueness about the Hill which none of the other stands have. Just like the Kop in Anfield has this vast single tiered stand that creates this amazing atmosphere, the Hill has this unique, sloping terrace which provides the best atmosphere and colour at any major GAA match.

Look at it this way. Anfield has been redeveloped quite a bit in the past few decades, yet the Kop has been largely untouched, and rightly so. Could you imagine if they redeveloped it into a two/three tiered stand with some corporate boxes and premium seating in between? It would never happen.

Same with the Hill.

Exactly, I think most non-Dubs would hate the Hill in a ABD way, we still appreciate it.

Most of us love the Hill secretly.

I don't want Anfield redeveloped either. Whether you like the KOP or not, it is part of the stadium, part of Anfield. It will never be recreated.

I'd miss it and the Hill. An upper tier would make it look strange.

We don't need to redevelop, so why bother?

Stupido

Lads.....

The hill was (reputedly) made up of rubble from O'Connell Street after the rising. This may be so but......

The rubble was removed in the 1970's when the hill was redeveloped, and that was subsequentley also rebuilt in the 1980's

Then you had the redevelopment of Croker as it is today. So there is nothing of the physical historical attachment still surviving there except the lore and tradition.

Nobody had a problem doing things in the 1970's & 1980's.....whats the big deal finishing the stadium with a tier above the terrace?

btw the atmosphere would be much better once it was fully enclosed.

theram

Browney7 wrote: »

Don't you mean the 'Aviva' stadium:D By God if the GAA ever tried to pull a stunt like that with Croke Park I wouldn't be a happy Camper!!

What the hell if they did? No one would call it that anyway, and the GAA would have another wedge to put into growing the game at the lower levels?

Small thing imo.

There's stadiums in Germany that have seats which can be changed to terracing if needs be in no time at all. Building a stand over a terrace would be a thing of nothing. The GAA had plans to do it, but IE put the kibosh on it because they werent willing to build the station under the stand the GAA wanted. A railway going right into the Stadium, how could this not be a good idea?

Marse

paul larry wrote: »

croker is perfect as it is. esp with hill 16. it was great to be there twice in last 6months and see the dubs eating that humble pie. particularly back on that rainy day in august. and it will be a great place to watch the o neill county pick up every sam maguire for the forseeable future...... tir eoghain for sam 09

Why, did donegal knock us out?

mikemac

Leave it as it.

Lived for two years on Clonliffe Road, I was renting so don't flame me as a NIMBY.
There is just an incredible lack of space to do anything with Hill16.

Even if you build over the railway line and even if you buy up the affected properties on the south side of Clonliffe Road it still causes problems.
You instantly have the stadium towering over houses on Clonliffe Road, will the residents accept it? I saw what happened over floodlights, this will be even bigger!

I've gone through what the residents deal with, I can't see it happening. I realize the residents get little sympathy in this forum (from what I've seen) but realy, I say leave it as it is

Stupido

FYI

JohnJericho

What about simply putting a roof on the hill? it would at least make it half decent looking.

conf101

Stupido wrote: »

FYI

Looking at that there seems to be very little possibility it'd happen!

blackbelt

There is no room to build any further.The aerial shot further to my pic proves that it is way too tight to even put scaffolding up.

Stupido

have a look at thew following for close-ups

http://maps.live.com/

zoom in to Dublin, then use Birds Eye View. You can look from 4 directions. lots of room for most part, although gardens at Jones road might be a problem. However it could be done without the need to demolish any houses.

Deedsie

conf101 wrote: »

Looking at that there seems to be very little possibility it'd happen!

I disagree, Why cant it be done like Landsdowne road, built over the Dart line? We could actually have a new Dart stop on the clonliffe road to appease residents somewhat.

It should be completely rounded off with a standing section in the lower tier.

Prob wont happen, but thats a shame.

Deedsie

Does anyone know how many houses the GAA actually own on the Clonliffe road?

decob

blackbelt wrote: »

There is no room to build any further.The aerial shot further to my pic proves that it is way too tight to even put scaffolding up.

we can but dream

Mushy

Deedsie wrote: »

I disagree, Why cant it be done like Landsdowne road, built over the Dart line? We could actually have a new Dart stop on the clonliffe road to appease residents somewhat.

It should be completely rounded off with a standing section in the lower tier.

Prob wont happen, but thats a shame.

The train line is much higher up than at Lansdowne, so the bottom tier would be at a different angle to the rest of the stadium. At LR, train line is roughly pitch level(give or take a metre or two), at CP, line is much higher than pitch.

decob wrote: »

we can but dream

Would look lovely but the roof on the Cusack would have to be changed:D

Stupido

There would be sufficent clearance for the train line and the upper most tier. The supporting framework could be designed to straddle the line.

It would be a long shot to suggest a station but it could be done with some good design.

Mushy

Stupido wrote: »

There would be sufficent clearance for the train line and the upper most tier. The supporting framework could be designed to straddle the line.

It would be a long shot to suggest a station but it could be done with some good design.

There could be trouble when it comes to things like the basic structure of the whole stand. Theres more to it than just the concrete structure, a roof and seats.

theram

conf101 wrote: »

Looking at that there seems to be very little possibility it'd happen!

Looking at that makes me even more convinced it could be done.

Stupido

Not really Mushy,

The upper tier is supported on a Diamond frame structure, essentially a single footprint support column which expands out mid way up to hold the upper tier - just like the shape of a diamond standing on end. Structurely it is a free standing structure from the other parts of the stands

Mushy

Stupido wrote: »

Not really Mushy,

The upper tier is supported on a Diamond frame structure, essentially a single footprint support column which expands out mid way up to hold the upper tier - just like the shape of a diamond standing on end. Structurely it is a free standing structure from the other parts of the stands

Could work that way, but then would still look crap inside with bottom tiers at one incline level, and Hill 16 at another. And surely problems would arise with the train line in the construction.

And what about the premium boxes if they were to be put in there? They'd be way too close to the train itself with the level they are on.

Stupido

I don't think it would work with the premium level (boxes are tucked in under the upper tier so they might fit).

Proposal is just for the top most tier to cover the terrace below.


I agree with the roof.....it should/could be redone and extended, esp the clear plexiglass pannels which would give more light!

Mushy

Stupido wrote: »

I don't think it would work with the premium level (boxes are tucked in under the upper tier so they might fit).

Proposal is just for the top most tier to cover the terrace below.


I agree with the roof.....it should/could be redone and extended, esp the clear plexiglass pannels which would give more light!

For just a top tier, then it could definitely be done alright. Am guessing you mean that diamond-style frame attached to one side of the wall which the train runs on? Be interesting to see it.

Stupido

no, it is the design used for the upper tier in the stand in the stadium. Basically it can run around behind the rail line, and canteliever (sorry for the spelling!) over the rail line.

An engineerng solution would be needed in places where a support column footprints on the track, but this is no biggie

The rail line is on an elevated embankment which slopes down away from the ground at the back. In effect the columns can pierce this and hold the seats above.

As things stand, three corner segments could be constructed over the hill.

The Hill corrisponds with the lower tier of the Cusack stand, and does not extend up beyond it

Mushy

Stupido wrote: »

no, it is the design used for the upper tier in the stand in the stadium. Basically it can run around behind the rail line, and canteliever (sorry for the spelling!) over the rail line.

An engineerng solution would be needed in places where a support column footprints on the track, but this is no biggie

The rail line is on an elevated embankment which slopes down away from the ground at the back. In effect the columns can pierce this and hold the seats above.

As things stand, three corner segments could be constructed over the hill.

The Hill corrisponds with the lower tier of the Cusack stand, and does not extend up beyond it

Risky, but that way could be done.

ronaneire

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Croke Park isnt all about Dublin's preferences

True too, and isn't Parnell Park the home of Dublin Football?

IIMII

ronaneire wrote: »

True too, and isn't Parnell Park the home of Dublin Football?

Where that?:D Guarantee you half the hill supporters on a given Leinster/All-Ireland championship day have never even been there. That's why Pillar lost it - for some strange reason Hill = Dubs in Dublin, but Croke Park is Headquarters, not a soccer-style home ground and that attitude annoys me even though I'm a Dub

Stupido

croker is the home of the dubs......nothing can change that. Fact of life! Thats why everyone loves beating the dubs there.

IIMII

I'd accept that every other county loves beating the dubs in Croker. But that's not because they see Croker as the home of Dublin GAA (they see it as headquarters which happens to be in Dublin), but rather because they know it annoys the hell out of Dublin supporters..

cruiserweight

Back on topic please people, this thread is about whether or not Croke Park should be extended. For the record Parnell Park is Dublins home ground, Croke Park is supposed to be a neutral ground.

Stupido

Parnell park issue is important.

If Dublin played more games at 'headquarters' they would presumably get greater crowds for two reasons

1) Easier access and the fairweather fan likes going to croker (an event in itself) as opposed to walking around killester trying to find parking or what not

2) Opposition fans like going to croker

With greater crowds the arguement for increased capacity and finishing the bowl becomes more compelling.

Also why not have Kildare & Meath play big 'home' games there as well? Sure they are part of greater dublin anyway?

ronaneire

Also why not have Kildare & Meath play big 'home' games there as well? Sure they are part of greater dublin anyway?[/quote]

No they are commuter belts, not part of Dublin. Do you think that Croke Park could be filled for a league game? Hardly... Have you any idea the costs of having to open Croke Park to play a game? I wouldn't think the GAA are going to start losing money just for the sake of it.

Stupido

ronaneire wrote: »

Do you think that Croke Park could be filled for a league game? Hardly... Have you any idea the costs of having to open Croke Park to play a game? I wouldn't think the GAA are going to start losing money just for the sake of it.

hmmm......Dublin v Tyrone 2007 & 2008

amazing what a bit of marketing can do to a game!

Blackjack

Stupido wrote: »

hmmm......Dublin v Tyrone 2007 & 2008

amazing what a bit of marketing can do to a game!

Check the Law of diminishing utility.

Also, residents, for some reason, don't like there being games at Croker.

IIMII

Stupido wrote: »

Also why not have Kildare & Meath play big 'home' games there as well? Sure they are part of greater dublin anyway?

. The terms 'Greater Dublin' and the GAA don't sit well together. Particularly as GAA is weaker in Dublin than either of the other two counties on a per capita basis. And considering that Meath and Kildare of populations of circa or less than 200,000, they would struggle to half fill Croke park on any other than big match days

ronaneire

Stupido wrote: »

hmmm......Dublin v Tyrone 2007 & 2008

amazing what a bit of marketing can do to a game!

Yeah fair weather supporters may ring a bell!