Should Croker Bowl be completed?

Stupido

IIMII wrote: »

. ...And considering that Meath and Kildare of populations of circa or less than 200,000, they would struggle to half fill Croke park on any other than big match days

surely there are Meath folk and Kildare folk who live in Dublin, pop1.1m???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

IIMII

Yes, but not another 900,000 of them

Stupido

Bernabau, Old Trafford, Celtic park, Nou Camp .....all large stadia that hold games every 14 days or so, San Siro...every 7 days

what's wrong with exploiting Croke park as much as possible?

Residents issues could be mitigated by the opening of 2 train stations (Canal end & Hill 16 end) as well as metro north station in drumcondra, pedestrian access diverted along the canal banks takes people off the streets (and mitigates the flower watering issue)

The closing of the bowl would reduce noice emmissions dramatically, as well as light overspill from the floodlights

So finishing the stadium would actually improve the impact on the surrounding areas

In Milan, after games at the San Siro, there are dozens of free trams lined up outside the stadium. These take most of the crowds off the surrounding streets. Likewise after big games at Wembley and the tube station. Something similar could be done at Croker.

Blackjack

Stupido wrote: »

Bernabau, Old Trafford, Celtic park, Nou Camp .....all large stadia that hold games every 14 days or so, San Siro...every 7 days

what's wrong with exploiting Croke park as much as possible?

Residents issues could be mitigated by the opening of 2 train stations (Canal end & Hill 16 end) as well as metro north station in drumcondra, pedestrian access diverted along the canal banks takes people off the streets (and mitigates the flower watering issue)

The closing of the bowl would reduce noice emmissions dramatically, as well as light overspill from the floodlights

So finishing the stadium would actually improve the impact on the surrounding areas

In Milan, after games at the San Siro, there are dozens of free trams lined up outside the stadium. These take most of the crowds off the surrounding streets. Likewise after big games at Wembley and the tube station. Something similar could be done at Croker.

What you are proposing is exceptionally costly - 2 train stations?.
Not to mention the purchase of the properties to the rear of the hill.

Why should Meath and Kildare move their games from their home grounds either?

In the current Financial Environment, who would fund these changes?.

Fozzie Bear

I did the stadium tour of Croker 2 years ago. (Really worth while if you ever get the chance to do it). Our tour guide was saying that the GAA had looked into developing the Hill so that it matched the rest of the stadium. However to do so they would have to build out and over the existing railway track. This is possible and not a hugely difficult engineering task. However the air space above the railway track is owned by CIE and they are unwilling to sell/lease it to the GAA! This is the major stumbling block at the moment to developing the Hill end according to our guide that day.

There is also an almost completed railway station already built under one of the stands, I forget which one it was. Obviously it would require the re-alinement of the tracks but it would be a huge addition to Croker if its ever opened.

Stupido

its the Canal end. Stand was designed to have a station from day one. Space is there. Just needs a service and a willing IE to finish it off.

If the Hill 16 end was closed off, platforms could be encorporated to the side of the tracks (if you are going to the trouble of completing the stadium, might as well do this as well).

Anyway we all know that Irish Rail have to be hit over the head with a good idea before they do anything.:P

danlen

make a bowl? in a word absolutely

Stupido

looked like a great atmosphere at croker last sat (according to the english scribes anyway.

Imagine what it would be like with the bowl complete?


Also, championship matches in the late evening under lights? would be great!

abadref

Leave our Headquarters alone Please. Hill 16 is a living Monument to this country's republican saviors.

cruiserweight

abadref wrote: »

Hill 16 is a living Monument to this country's republican saviors.

How?

Stupido

abadref wrote: »

Leave our Headquarters alone Please. Hill 16 is a living Monument to this country's republican saviors.

look up-thread. Hill 16 has been dealt with.

IIMII

Slightly off topic but I saw the end of the game on Saturday - the hill looked very dreary, there didn't seem to be much colour but that might have been the light. At least I thought it was the hill, some of the camera angles looked funny. Is this year the end of rugby and soccer in Croke park?

Quint

IIMII wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I saw the end of the game on Saturday - the hill looked very dreary, there didn't seem to be much colour but that might have been the light. At least I thought it was the hill, some of the camera angles looked funny. Is this year the end of rugby and soccer in Croke park?

The cold weather, everone wearing jackets. If it was in the summer you'd see a lot more colour

Daysha

IIMII wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I saw the end of the game on Saturday - the hill looked very dreary, there didn't seem to be much colour but that might have been the light. At least I thought it was the hill, some of the camera angles looked funny. Is this year the end of rugby and soccer in Croke park?

Lansdowne reopens April 2010, so Croker will still play host to next years 6Ns and the rest of the WC qualifiers. But last Saturday was probably the last time you'll hear God Save The Queen in Croke Park for quite some time.

But like the other poster said, you'll not get much colour in a stand during a night time game in the winter.

As much as I've enjoyed going to rugby and soccer matches in Croker, I'll look forward to Lansdowne reopening. The whole novelty of foreign sports at Croker has kinda worn off at this stage, and even though you'll get the odd occasion like the France or England matches, the general atmosphere for the 2 sports in the stadium has been mediocre at best.

Denis Irwin

deise59 wrote: »

As much as I've enjoyed going to rugby and soccer matches in Croker, I'll look forward to Lansdowne reopening. The whole novelty of foreign sports at Croker has kinda worn off at this stage, and even though you'll get the odd occasion like the France or England matches, the general atmosphere for the 2 sports in the stadium has been mediocre at best.

Indeed. As a northsider it's been great for me getting to the Ireland games (football) but I have to admit since the move to Croker from Lansdowne the atmosphere at the games has been sh*te and I can't wait to go back to Lansdowne Road (AKA The Aviva Stadium)

Machman

I worked on the New Hogan Stand, and at the time there were no provisions made for any further stand.
*Fact - It IS possible to build a complete bowl. It's big engineering, but it can be done.
*Fact - Irish Rail have been an issue, but not to the extent Croke Park say.
*Fact - CP when starting to rebuild the stadium had a chance to buy all the houses north of the hill, they didn't and the cost now would be seriously prohibitive.
*Fact - You would need all this space to construct the new closure, as you would need everything north of the hill for site offices, compound, laydown, materials .etc.etc.etc. and then to have spectator access and exits.
*Fact - CP will not 'finish' the stadium,.. because it's finished.

cruiserweight

Machman wrote: »

I worked on the New Hogan Stand, and at the time there were no provisions made for any further stand.
*Fact - It IS possible to build a complete bowl. It's big engineering, but it can be done.
*Fact - Irish Rail have been an issue, but not to the extent Croke Park say.
*Fact - CP when starting to rebuild the stadium had a chance to buy all the houses north of the hill, they didn't and the cost now would be seriously prohibitive.
*Fact - You would need all this space to construct the new closure, as you would need everything north of the hill for site offices, compound, laydown, materials .etc.etc.etc. and then to have spectator access and exits.
*Fact - CP will not 'finish' the stadium,.. because it's finished.

Any back up or proof for any of those facts?

justsomebloke

I still don't see what the need for an extention is. At the moment there are only a few games a year that fill croker as it is so why the need to increase it even further

ardmacha

they didn't and the cost now would be seriously prohibitive.

I reckon the Corpo should CPO everything between Croke Pk and Summerhill and redevelop it. There are a lot of poor quality buildings here and sites that are too small. Equivalent districts in Belfast have been cleared and are the better for it. This could also tie in with a stadium redevelopment.

Nalced_irl

blackbelt wrote: »

Croke Park is perfect the way it is.Why standardise it to soccer or "European standards"?

The Hill is a big piece of history for the GAA alone and caters for those who prefer to stand at games (me included).

Plus it would cause too much disruption to residents and the railway line going to Maynooth and the west.

Then you have the elements..sunshine,wind etc.The Hill allows for the natural elements to have its bearing on the game which is what happens at every other intercounty or club match.

4 stands??...no thanks.

Spot on, obviously us Dubs want to keep the Hill for our own reasons but there is alot more to the terrace than that. While it isnt built by the actual blocks from 1916 anymore, it is still a part of history. Plus it makes the stadium unique. Its like no other in europe or indeed the world so i say leave it as it is.

IIMII

Nalced_irl wrote: »

us Dubs want to keep the Hill for our own reasons

Some Dubs. And I don't think I've read anyone proposing anything other than adding a lid and some seats on an upper tier. And I couldn't give a damn about soccer standards, though I suppose looking at international best practice doesn't do any harm (though I gather we took our leads mainly from the States for our demi-bowl)

cogITere

Increase the capacity of the Stadium?
Is that necessary?

For the handful of games that reach capacity and considering the number of games where atmosphere is lost due to the poor attendance, even when there maybe a "triple header", I would have to say leave it as is!
If the GAA do decide that they have cash to burn at these times, build/develop a good stadium that can hold these "lesser supported" games in a good atmosphere, not a ghost town.

deiseman21

today on six1 sport christy cooney gave an absolute no to the idea of seat the hill and thus killing the croker bowl idea completely.

Victor

You do realise there are two railways and their is no absolute need to have both open, although having both is particularly convenient.

Flukey

As Victor has mentioned and has been mentioned in the thread already, the railway lines, a general lack of space and more importantly the residents having light blocked by a higher structure are the practical reasons for having no further development of Hill 16. That would include a fully completed bowl with upper and lower decks or even just putting a roof over the current terrace. Hill 16 and Croke Park as it now is, is fine. Those of you that remember Croke Park before any of the development began will know how much of an improvement it is. See below:

The Cusack Stand in 1986:


The Canal End in 1986:


The Hogan, Nally and Hill16 in 1989:


Those are just the internal improvements. There have also been external ones. Any of you that remember what it was like trying to get out of the old Cusack Stand, with just one long passage way for everyone to exit from, will know how much it has improved.

Aidric

Xavi6 wrote: »

The stadium, while generally magnificent, just looks unfinished with that horrible looking Hill. If they want to keep it then fair enough but at least build on top of it.

Correct.If finished it would be one of the finest stadiums in the world. As it is it just looks a work in progress. Trust the GAA and it's clinging to tradition at every turn to resist modernisation. Terracing forms no part of modern stadia and Croke Park should be no different.

deiseman21

And lets face it, if they were ever going to buy up property for more space, NOW IS THE TIME.
Maybe we can get it in under NAMA:D
The train line is an excuse nothing more.
It could easily be re-alinged.

chinguetti

The stadium looks unfinished if you are basing it on a soccer/other sport but people forget that its GAA stadium so if doesn't fit that system. Its fine the way it is and why do people want to turn it into a souless ground like thousands of others just to make it looks like a soccer pitch?? Its a GAA ground not a soccer pitch

homerjay2005

redeveloping the hill cost 20 million already, so i dont think its ever going to be budged. maybe in 20 years or more, but sure who knows....they talked about tradition on the program earlier...hill16 is part of that tradition and it wont go too easily.

saying that, the only way i can see a change, is if they legally have to seat it, but that would reduce capacity by about 6,000. the existing design of the hill could be better, would be ideal to be at the exact same level as the bottom tier of the stands and standing, but they dont have the space....

Flukey

Xavi6 wrote: »

The stadium, while generally magnificent, just looks unfinished with that horrible looking Hill.

The Hill is not horrible looking and the ground does not look unfinished if you are familiar with it. When the blue of Dublin, or indeed the colours of any county, fill Hill 16 it looks particularly special, in a way that no seated part of the ground does. A terrace has a different dynamic to it in any ground, especially Hill 16. Even when you are not on it, looking at it is a wonderful sight.

Croke Park has a special sort of open feel to it because there is no stand at one end. It doesn't feel enclosed like other stadiums do. Croke Park has a special character to it that enclosed stadiums just don't have. The U shape works well, and it looks great when you see the external camera angle looking in from that end of the ground that they have on big match days. You wouldn't be able to get a shot like that in an enclosed stadium.

The GAA folk in this thread that have spent their lives going to Croke Park know what a special place it is, and the significance of Hill 16. The new Croke Park meant we lost some of the character of the old stadium, but the new one has great character too. For a whole host of reasons that have been expressed in this thread, both practical and sentimental, Hill 16 and the open end of the ground should be left as it is.

Blackjack

Aidric wrote: »

Correct.If finished it would be one of the finest stadiums in the world. As it is it just looks a work in progress. Trust the GAA and it's clinging to tradition at every turn to resist modernisation. Terracing forms no part of modern stadia and Croke Park should be no different.

Go to a Game and Stand in the Hill - if you actually enjoy the sport, you'll understand that terracing is a great place to spend a game.

If you're just on to have a go at the GAA, then fair enough, you probably don't bother going to or watching games in any case, so it shouldn't bother you too much.

Aidric

Blackjack wrote: »

Go to a Game and Stand in the Hill - if you actually enjoy the sport, you'll understand that terracing is a great place to spend a game.

If you're just on to have a go at the GAA, then fair enough, you probably don't bother going to or watching games in any case, so it shouldn't bother you too much.

I spent many a game in the terraces in Lansdowne road. I've had a ticket in the stand for any game I've seen at Croke Park. At no time did I think Oh I wish I was over there in the exposed terrace running the risk of standing behind some tall guy who is limiting my view. Terraces are a thing of the past but we all know how slow the GAA are to change.

Blackjack

Aidric wrote: »

I spent many a game in the terraces in Lansdowne road. I've had a ticket in the stand for any game I've seen at Croke Park. At no time did I think Oh I wish I was over there in the exposed terrace running the risk of standing behind some tall guy who is limiting my view. Terraces are a thing of the past but we all know how slow the GAA are to change.

ah Right, well, once the new Aviva Stadium is completed, you won't have to worry yourself about any of that auld GAA stuff anymore.

Daysha

The unfortunate thing is radical redevelopment ideas never come to fruition until major disasters occur or are close to occurring. It took the loss of 96 lives in Hillsbrough to close all terraces in the top-tier of English football, while the ideas for refurbishing the Croke Park as we see it today only took shape when a near-catastrophe was averted in the Dublin-Galway AI final in 1983.

I would hope that the GAA don't wait for lives to be lost before steps are taken in the future, but one thing for sure is that terraces won't be around forever. When Croke Park does need renovating in the decades to come logic suggests it'll be the Hill that will get most of the focus. Perhaps a covered, single tier seated stand with the roof swooping down from either end, a la the new Lansdowne Rd.

megadodge

Daysha, that is a very misleading post.

Using antiquated practices that no longer apply due to Health & Safety standards you could get a disaster. NOT ANYMORE !!!

Between receiving the go-ahead before every match from Gardai, Fire, Health & Safety inspectors etc. and the actual strategically-placed-staggered-barriers design of the Hill there is NO chance of any form of a crush occuring.

Enough scare-mongoring.

Bluetonic

Investment needs to be made on an extension to the roof. Our seasons are getting wetter and the stadium just isn't up to scratch in that it's spectators can't be guaranteed to watch a game in comfort.

As it is the Hogan roof is wider than the Cusack roof.

The money is there now (unlike when it was built) to give the stands the roofs they deserve.

homerjay2005

the terracing is safe. what caused the other incidents back 20+ years ago was over crowding and fencing. the hill is never going to be over crowded as the cops and stewards have it well sussed and close off sections when they sense areas are approaching full. the gaa wont seat the hill until they are legally told to. those grounds, such as semple, PUC and killarney but the name a few....are way under their safe capacity. killarney for example was 45,000 originally buy was then reduced to 41,200 before work was done. semple was reduced.

all these grounds have a fire and safety capacity, which is well safe.

Casei11

The ticket prices would be increased to pay for this development and the gaa have stated they dont want to do this

tatoo

The Hill is fine ,
leave it alone .