National Demonstration set for Feb 21... Are you participating?

Darragh29

Right, according to the ICTU website www.ictu.ie, there will be a national protest/demonstration on 21st February starting at Parnell Square at 2PM.

It's for all workers to protest at the way this government is going about making an already terrible situation, a lot worse.

I'm participating for defo and I'm not even in a union. I'm self employed and I'm protesting at the lack of a strategy to protect jobs and tackle unemployment. I could do so much more if I had some backing or access to capital. As things stand, I'm doing what I can with what I have. I'm lucky that I'm still in business at the moment to be honest, I had to close one business down a year ago and I kept others open, these are small business operations by the way, not big wealthy ventures. I've colleagues/friends who are also self employed who are letting people go now on a daily basis and I don't think it is good enough so I'm all for a good decent protest. These people cannot get access to working capital from the banks because the banks are using their capital to support extremely wealthy developers who cannot service their huge loans.

So I'm wondering, how many other people on the forum will be going and if so why will you be protesting, and if not, well then why not??? I seriously don't want this thread to turn into a public -vs- private sector, just if you are participating or not and why...

P. Breathnach

It's group therapy for the disaffected.

Permabear

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irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

+1

he speaks the truth

i for one will be happy to join a protest , a counter protest to theese sacred cows who would happily bleed the rest of us dry so as to maintain thier status as europes highest paid public sector

Scofflaw

If there's anyone who didn't profit from the boom at all, but is being asked to pay for the bust, then I will support their protest. Anyone else is simply complaining that they had the gain, but don't want the pain.

unsympathetically,
Scofflaw

lods

irish_bob wrote: »

+1

he speaks the truth

i for one will be happy to join a protest , a counter protest to theese sacred cows who would happily bleed the rest of us dry so as to maintain thier status as europes highest paid public sector

+ 2 , good post

murphaph

Great post donegallfella-sums up my feelings entirely. The country and the people NEED this recession to teach us that we have to work hard for our prosperity and not just borrow it. This is going to be really hard for the folks who recently joined the 'property ladder' and who must now service mortgages which are well above the true value of their homes.

I would be afraid that any ICTU organised march would send the exact opposite signal to the politicians, ie that we are not ready for pay cuts and a reduced standard of living. We must tell them that we are ready for this AND that we expect the boys at the top to resign if they are in any way culpable and take massive pay cuts if they are not. No golden handshakes. No secret deals. Hard work and honesty from all is needed in good measure in this country.

thomasj

irish_bob wrote: »

+1

he speaks the truth

i for one will be happy to join a protest , a counter protest to theese sacred cows who would happily bleed the rest of us dry so as to maintain thier status as europes highest paid public sector

I presume by that you mean the government?
They earn 50% more than their british counterparts and do about 50% less work (in sitting in dail) than their british counterparts!

That is the biggest ripoff! :mad:

TDs paid far more than MPs for less work

THE new year is just a fortnight old and many more Irish workers find themselves out of a job.

But there are 166 lucky Irish workers who haven’t returned from the holidays yet, haven’t lost their jobs and have not been docked pay... they are TDs.

In the lead-up to Christmas there was much discussion over the difference in euro and sterling prices for the same goods in the same shops.

So considering that the Irish parliamentary system is a copy of the British one, how do our TDs compare with MPs, and are we being ripped off in politics as much as we are in the shops?

In 2008, the Dáil sat for 97 days compared with 155 days for the House of Commons. The Commons sat for 19 four-day and 12 five-day weeks.

In contrast the Dáil only managed one lousy four-day week during 2008.

It must to nice for the increasing numbers of Irish workers on a three-day week to know their TDs have being doing just that on full pay for years.

Naturally, TDs will excuse their behaviour by saying they have to attend to constituency business and that rural TDs have long distances to travel.

But MPs have to attend to constituency business, too, and look at the distances that Scottish and Welsh MPs have to travel.

Also each TD has only an average of 25,500 constituents to attend to, but an MP has more than 94,000.

So if MPs sit 50% more days, have longer working weeks and shorter holidays, have nearly four times more constituents to look after and have to travel vastly longer distances, they must be on fantastic pay.

Well, an MP gets the sterling equivalent of around €70,000 compared to €105,000 for a TD; a British minister gets roughly €160,000 compared to €240,000 for an Irish minister and the Prime Minister earns €220,000 compared with €310,000 for the Taoiseach. We have a deepening financial crisis and there is much debate of late on radical cuts in public sector pay and numbers, more taxes on Irish workers and calls for patriotism as a solution.

But while TDs do less work for 50% more pay than MPs, they are just not entitled to participate in such debates and make demands on others.

So for the rest of January, I request all TDs to take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and ask if there shouldn’t be radical cuts in both the numbers and pay of Irish politicians.

As an example of how radical, perhaps politicians should be paid according to the number of days their parliament sits.

If an MP is paid €450 for each day the House of Commons sits, then a TD would have his salary cut by nearly 60% to €43,650.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...story81968.asp

Alot of people letting these people getting away with murder!

lods

thomasj wrote: »

I presume by that you mean the government?
They earn 50% more than their british counterparts and do about 50% less work (in sitting in dail) than their british counterparts!

That is the biggest ripoff! :mad:

you can't compare the British system with the Irish one. Iwouldn't do their job. Your on call 24/7 . Just because their not in the Dail does not mean their not working.

murphaph

thomasj wrote: »

I presume by that you mean the government?
They earn 50% more than their british counterparts and do about 50% less work (in sitting in dail) than their british counterparts!

That is the biggest ripoff! :mad:



http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...story81968.asp

Alot of people letting these people getting away with murder!

...and they represent about 25,000 constituents each while an MP at Westminster represents 95,000. Reform needed from the TOP down alright!

turgon

Does the OP realize that this march is not a general protest at the state of the economy, it is simply a mechanism by which the unions hope to cling onto all they undeservedly got?

A simple analogy: if you spoil your child with candy, as soon as you stop giving candy, or expect reward in return, you will be dealing with a moaning crying little infant. The governments gave the unions a lot more candy than they were ever entitled to, and now that its drying up they are pulling their hissy fit. Boo hoo.

murphaph

lods wrote: »

you can't compare the British system with the Irish one. Iwouldn't do their job. Your on call 24/7 . Just because their not in the Dail does not mean their not working.

.....but that's the problem! The Dail is a glorified county council chamber. TDs and MPs are elected to......legislate. Their job is to promulgate laws for society. Their job does not include getting planning or a replacement hip for Mrs. Murphy down the road. They SHOULD be sitting as much as Westminster and getting laws through efficiently.

thomasj

The grievance is that the lower paid civil servants are having to fork out!

While I have no problem with that, I think the fact that people with more than me can claim allowances resulting in some cases in people with greater salary than me forking out less.

This also couples with the recommendation that senior civil servants and TDs get a 10% rise. whatever happened to the more you pay the more you earn, because of this allowance rule not enough will be collected from this!

turgon

thomasj wrote: »

The grievance is that the lower paid civil servants are having to fork out!

To pay for their own pension. I fail to see the problem?

thomasj

murphaph wrote: »

.....but that's the problem! The Dail is a glorified county council chamber. TDs and MPs are elected to......legislate. Their job is to promulgate laws for society. Their job does not include getting planning or a replacement hip for Mrs. Murphy down the road. They SHOULD be sitting as much as Westminster and getting laws through efficiently.

And I'm not so sure whether that happens or not! :rolleyes:

mike65

I may throw some cake.

thomasj

They already pay for their own pension. (6.5%)

Its not a pension levy, in that those who are not entitled to a pension (ie less than 20) have to pay aswell.

MG

I won't be participating because I don't live in La La Land

turgon

thomasj wrote: »

They already pay for their own pension. (6.5%)

Its not a pension levy, in that those who are not entitled to a pension (ie less than 20) have to pay aswell.

What do you men by "less than 20"?

I do believe I am right though, although tell me wrong if am. Up to now public service contributions to their pension have not been sufficient to fund it; ie on top of their wage they got a secure pension. And now they just have to pay for it.

NewDubliner

turgon wrote: »

What do you men by "less than 20"?

I do believe I am right though, although tell me wrong if am. Up to now public service contributions to their pension have not been sufficient to fund it; ie on top of their wage they got a secure pension. And now they just have to pay for it.

No exactly. The pension is not secure and the money is being paid (along with loads of our tax money) to allow the banks to forgive the debts of property speculators.

It should be noted that for many private sector workers the amount they pay in PRSI and also into defined benefit pension plans is not sufficient to pay for their pensions either. We all pay for their pensions though taxes and higher prices for goods and services.

irish_bob

thomasj wrote: »

I presume by that you mean the government?
They earn 50% more than their british counterparts and do about 50% less work (in sitting in dail) than their british counterparts!

That is the biggest ripoff! :mad:



http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...story81968.asp

Alot of people letting these people getting away with murder!

i mean politicians , nurses , guards , teachers , all across the public sector , wages are far higher than in the rest of europe

this country was never any richer than the likes of the netherlands , the uk , germany belguim and france , the mirrage that was the property boom and cheap credit only gave the illusion that it was , wages and prices are completly out of whack with the rest of europe
we need a new round of benchmarking , benchmark us against other european nations

turgon

NewDubliner wrote: »

We all pay for their pensions though taxes and higher prices for goods and services.

So point that they are giving out because they finally have to pay their own way is true. Greedy baxtards.

thomasj

I leave it at this I am just stunned that as this country falls down the drain as a result of

ppars
e-voting
banking bailouts and scandals
increasing wages (senior management and TDS)
tribunials
Politician claiming a pension for each department
Beverley cooper flynn
The government jet
Kildare stud
Decentilisation
The payoff of the banking ombudsman
not to mention the development sector

Just to name a few, it is disgusting that all this is brushed to a side and when the PS who worked with the public (not like politicians not showing up for dail events) some of us have sense to know how bad things are asking to share th burden and people are greedy enough in this age still not to! :mad:

thomasj

turgon wrote: »

So point that they are giving out because they finally have to pay their own way is true. Greedy baxtards.

We always have, this levy is not for our pensions! Its to help get us out of this mess!

But theyll get the estimate wrong and some other stelth tax will have to appear!

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

No exactly. The pension is not secure and the money is being paid (along with loads of our tax money) to allow the banks to forgive the debts of property speculators.

Can you provide a link or even tell me where you heard that the banks won't be pursuing their developer customers for their debts? Huge mistakes have been made but I can't see any benefit for any bank in writing off debts without making every effort to recover their loans. The banks need capital. The precise mechanism for injecting capital is imperfect IMO but sadly it seems it must happen or banks will fold. The international loss to our reputation would make us like another Iceland-the IMF just a call away and would ensure this recession turns into a depression and Ireland stays in a downturn while the rest of the world recovers.

NewDubliner

turgon wrote: »

So point that they are giving out because they finally have to pay their own way is true. Greedy baxtards.

I take it that you're referring to the public sector workers? What you say would be true if the money was being applied towards their pensions. It is not.

The whole anti-public-sector frenzy whipped up by IBEC and IN&M is drawing attention away from the bank recapitalisation. You guys are getting excited about the 2bn being taken from PS workers, while another 5bn is being taken out of everyone's back pockets.

dresden8

turgon wrote: »

To pay for their own pension. I fail to see the problem?

That's the thing you see. They're not paying for their pension.

The government is throwing this money at the banks. The National Pension Reserve Fund is being thrown at the banks. Today's 7 billion is the start of it. They are bankrupting the country to bail out their developer mates. Very shortly there will be no pension money.

You may remember that the government were all about how we were in a national emergency, the situation was dire, we are screwed something must be done and done now. Public servants must take a pay cut.

This sense of national urgency lasted just until somebody mentioned that maybe those who made the money from the unsustainable boom should maybe pay some of that back.

Miraculously, it bacame "Slow down, don't act too hastily, wait for the results of the report".

What has happened is the government and IBEC have scapegoated public servants, some of whom Lenihan is now hiding behind.

They have spent the last six months on their masterplan. Which consists of shafting Public Servants. We knew they were going to do that from the start so why the long wait?

Maybe they could have used that time to come up with a proper plan instead of targetting just one section of society.

Rest assured though, once they have beaten the Public Service and split the workers, they will move onto the next sector and shaft them on a rolling blitzkrieg against the low to middle paid, children, old people and the poor. You know, the people who don't count.

Don't expect me to have too much sympathy when they come for you.

Permabear

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Darragh29

turgon wrote: »

Does the OP realize that this march is not a general protest at the state of the economy, it is simply a mechanism by which the unions hope to cling onto all they undeservedly got?

A simple analogy: if you spoil your child with candy, as soon as you stop giving candy, or expect reward in return, you will be dealing with a moaning crying little infant. The governments gave the unions a lot more candy than they were ever entitled to, and now that its drying up they are pulling their hissy fit. Boo hoo.

From what I can make out about the protest on www.ictu.ie this protest is not for public sector workers exclusively, although the ICTU says that this issue of the public sector levy is one of the ten points on their plan for a recovery in the situation facing us. Check out www.ictu.ie

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You obviously haven't been reading the threads where public servants are public enemy number 1 then, have you?

irish_bob

while the banks have behaved appallingly , i think its unfortunate that the banks are being used as a convenient excuse not to tackle public sector ineficency , over staffing and over pay relative to our european neighbours
the public sector has a breathtaking sense of entitlement , developed through years of being pandered to by various goverments