National Demonstration set for Feb 21... Are you participating?

Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

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Hang on, me and the OH, we bought ONE house together around 5 years ago. We bought the house to live in and start a family in. We went to Cyprus on holiday one year and Portugal the next year and every year, we went away for a week in the sun, nothing extravagant or sexy, one week away self catering. I do not accept that our decision to buy one house and have a one week holiday once a year has contributed in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, to the crisis that the country is now in.

Permabear

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eoinbn

dresden8 wrote: »

That's the thing you see. They're not paying for their pension.

The government is throwing this money at the banks. The National Pension Reserve Fund is being thrown at the banks. Today's 7 billion is the start of it. They are bankrupting the country to bail out their developer mates. Very shortly there will be no pension money.

:rolleyes:

That sorta nonsense doesn't help. The government ARE bailing out the banks, not their developer pals. Developers are asset rich, but cash poor. Not only are the assets worth less than what they paid for them, but nobody wants to buy them- they are the toxic assets. So the banks go after the developers and take their assets, but those assets are worthless atm- hence the BANK bailout.

As for the unions and their members- just more rolleyes for them. They were in bed with FF for the last 20 years- maybe they should of "offered" them some useful advice during that time? Instead of asking for pay hikes at every occasion maybe they should of demanded they take action on house prices, and prices in general.
Reap what you sow etc.

Permabear

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Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

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Unfortunately this has turned into a debate about public sector -vs- private sector workers as I had feared it would.

I'm getting the impression that there is a view emerging here that any person who feels like protesting is basically protesting against themselves, as "we were all in it". I simply don't accept this. I know I have been struggling since 2005 with business start ups and before that I worked in a 30K a year job in the private sector. I don't know how anyone can suggest that a Garda or a nurse or a Fireman should take a 10% hit.

When I'm driving around, I see more people driving 80K BMW's, Lexus & Mercedes cars and SUV's than I see driving any other type or value of vehicle. Who are the people who can afford to drive around in 80K cars???

I don't think they are nurses or gardai. So who are they???

Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

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There definitely was an element of Bertie Aherne throwing pallets of cash at any group who threatened to cause industrial unrest, through the benchmarking process. If we need a smaller public sector, then the answer is to cut the numbers, not levy those that are working there.

NewDubliner

Darragh29 wrote: »

When I'm driving around, I see more people driving 80K BMW's, Lexus & Mercedes cars and SUV's I don't think they are nurses or gardai. So who are they???

Banksters.

Permabear

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nesf

Darragh29 wrote: »

Unfortunately this has turned into a debate about public sector -vs- private sector workers as I had feared it would

The main instigators of this protest were public sector unions, it was impossible for this not to have an element of public vs private in it. ICTU is trying to incite unity between the two groups and there are sizeable numbers of the private sector who don't see things that way. Such is just the lay of the land at the moment.

turgon

Ok so let me try to get my point striaght, and sorry if I ve been wrong.

I am led to believe that up to now public sector workers (like my teaching father) havent been paying 100% of their pension; ie the government makes a lot of the contribution. But now this "pension levy" is being applied which I see as the workers finally starting to pay more of the overall pension contribution, right?

Now, if thats all true, saying this levy is going towards bankers is ridiculous, and its a red herring. We could as easily say that the levy is going towards social welfare, if phrased thus would people be as easy on your case? I think not.

So instead of criticizing the government for the levy, which ye do, admit the levy is ye simply paying for what ye already get for free, then stop beating about the bush and give out about the governments spending policies.

doolox

There has existed in Ireland for many years two different economies. One had a monopolistic grip on the other, sought and obtained pay rises well beyond what they deserved or the country at large could afford.
The other economy was exposed to the full rigours of international competition and was denied payrises at every turn. The formation and recognition of trade unions was denied to them. They were forced to compete for work with non-irish who have no idea of employment rights or customs of this country and give more than most employers deserve in terms of increased productivity, flexibilty and in some cases, working hours with little or no return in term of pay increases etc.
People in the private sector still work standard 39 hour week while those in the public sector work 37.5 and some work 35 hours a week.
Teachers in the secondary sector have class contact hours of 22 hrs a week.
Many professionals have similar short weeks, compare that to Engineers or other professionals in private industry who work even longer hours than the ordinary workers and all unpaid overtime...it is expected.
We have in the past lost jobs in the private sector because Ireland is too dear a place in which to do business. SR Technics is gone in North Dublin precisely because of high wages and rising costs.
The private sector workers are expected to compete with the public sector for housing, food and services etc and so need a higher wage here than their counterparts elsewhere can command in order to live.
Unfortunately, lacking the monopoly of the public sector ( cf. ESB and their recent 3.5% pay rise, and their double-digit rate increases despite cheaper oil......) They haven't enough bargaining power to get pay rises to keep pace with their counterparts in public service and many have lost their jobs as the work goes to the lowest bidder ( cf Irish Ferries and non-Irish crews......).
We are not unique in this. Many sectors in the US economy are restricted, monopolistic and lay distorted claims on the financial resources of their country but are eventually met with legal action and resolved. Anti trust and competition law is centuries old in the States and elsewhere in Europe but we haven't even started yet.
Only in the last 10 years or so have I heard the sort of challenging high prices and fighting rising costs which is taken as normal in other countries.
I think the internet, exposing as it does, the difference in price between "dear" old Ireland and the rest of the World has a part in this.
Also increased education, travel, immigration and other exposure to other nationalities and cultures has opened eyes to the cancerous rip-off paralysing our country.
In summary, the exposed private sector ie. farmers shopkeepers and other self employed people, factory workers and sevice providers in the private sector etc... need to be protected from rising costs relative to their competitors in the rest of the world.
While we need to watch rises in wages etc we also need to transition all workers to a more skilled level of work so as to meet the challenge of foreign competition. We may not be able to compete on cost but should be able to compete in terms of quality, up-to-dateness and innovation etc.
While this requires input from the government and employers in terms of planning, research time and money, it also requires a mature approach from employees which in the past many were not encouraged to give.

Muggy Dev

Great posts Donegalfella.

The ongoing outrage about the price difference between shops in the North and those in the republic illustrates how difficult we are finding it coming to terms with our present difficulties.A 50% differential is common but try as we may,we cannot reconcile it.This despite the fact that the average industrial wage in Ireland is E36,000 and the UK is 24,000UKP ,50% dearer.I don´t have the exact figures for energy but I´ll bet we´re mile away from being competitive.We are in serious denial.

Under normal circumstances Jack O´Connor´s (SIPTU) "call to arms" last week would have been dismissed as hot air.But in the context of our present predicament,it was,in my view,treasonous.

The_Minister

murphaph wrote: »

.....but that's the problem! The Dail is a glorified county council chamber. TDs and MPs are elected to......legislate. Their job is to promulgate laws for society. Their job does not include getting planning or a replacement hip for Mrs. Murphy down the road. They SHOULD be sitting as much as Westminster and getting laws through efficiently.

And who makes them do local work or they lose their job?

Us.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

irish_bob wrote: »

+1

he speaks the truth

i for one will be happy to join a protest , a counter protest to theese sacred cows who would happily bleed the rest of us dry so as to maintain thier status as europes highest paid public sector

+ Me

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Unfortunately this has turned into a debate about public sector -vs- private sector workers as I had feared it would.

I'm getting the impression that there is a view emerging here that any person who feels like protesting is basically protesting against themselves, as "we were all in it". I simply don't accept this. I know I have been struggling since 2005 with business start ups and before that I worked in a 30K a year job in the private sector. I don't know how anyone can suggest that a Garda or a nurse or a Fireman should take a 10% hit.

When I'm driving around, I see more people driving 80K BMW's, Lexus & Mercedes cars and SUV's than I see driving any other type or value of vehicle. Who are the people who can afford to drive around in 80K cars???

I don't think they are nurses or gardai. So who are they???

of course the gardai and nurses should take a pay cut , they are far higher paid then thier counterparts in other european countries and this is not a richer country than the likes of the netherlands , germany belguim , france or the uk
this country can no longer afford sacred cows , nurses work hard but that does not make them special or immune from the sacrafices needed to ride out a rescession , guards on the other hand for the most part dont work hard but are still extremly well paid


ps, judging from your posts , its clear you have a persecution complex , this of course is common among the public sector

BroomBurner

To answer the OP's question, before all of you jumped back up on your high horses and spouted off again, I'm not sure yet whether I will be protesting.

The main reason is that the general public are still mainly ignorant as to why we would be protesting, so it would be hard to garner support.

On the other hand, I find the whole levy thing unfair. I'm all for paying my way (and I hate seeing wasters in my office whinging about having to do a days work), but the levy is weighted incorrectly.

I also think it's time to hit those on a public sector pension aswell. For instance, Bertie Ahern is getting €260,000 a year on his, €100,000 for being a TD and the balance for being the Taoiseach. Maybe that could be cut by €60,000. Neary's also.

Looks like I'll be balloted soon though on more than one days strike, so guess it's sh*t or get off pot time.

If I decide to protest, it will be based on the wholly unfair way in which low and middle income earners are being hit harder than those on more money.

irish_bob

BroomBurner wrote: »

To answer the OP's question, before all of you jumped back up on your high horses and spouted off again, I'm not sure yet whether I will be protesting.

The main reason is that the general public are still mainly ignorant as to why we would be protesting, so it would be hard to garner support.

On the other hand, I find the whole levy thing unfair. I'm all for paying my way (and I hate seeing wasters in my office whinging about having to do a days work), but the levy is weighted incorrectly.

I also think it's time to hit those on a public sector pension aswell. For instance, Bertie Ahern is getting €260,000 a year on his, €100,000 for being a TD and the balance for being the Taoiseach. Maybe that could be cut by €60,000. Neary's also.

Looks like I'll be balloted soon though on more than one days strike, so guess it's sh*t or get off pot time.

If I decide to protest, it will be based on the wholly unfair way in which low and middle income earners are being hit harder than those on more money.

id have no problem with the unions and public servants opposing the fact that the local guy working a shovel on the side of the road is paying a disproportionatley larger amount of his wage towards his pension than the local pompous ass of a judge but that arguement is at the bottom of the page in small print , the headlines appear to read that the unions and public sector are against any form of levy or pay cut at all

BroomBurner

irish_bob wrote: »

id have no problem with the unions and public servants opposing the fact that the local guy working a shovel on the side of the road is paying a disproportionatley larger amount of his wage towards his pension than the local pompous ass of a judge but that arguement is at the bottom of the page in small print , the headlines appear to read that the unions and public sector are against any form of levy or pay cut at all

Perhaps you should start reading the full text then, and not just the headlines. EVery statement from my Union, and that of the CPSU has been pretty much in line with my own thoughts.

Darragh29

nesf wrote: »

The main instigators of this protest were public sector unions, it was impossible for this not to have an element of public vs private in it. ICTU is trying to incite unity between the two groups and there are sizeable numbers of the private sector who don't see things that way. Such is just the lay of the land at the moment.

I remember back on 2006, my old man had a serious health scare. He was rushed to St. James A & E where, due to the very best of immediate medical care, he survived a medical event that should have killed him stone dead before he even got to the hospital. At the time, I had an independent garage in Dublin and a few short months after this event happened, a nurse working in the same A & E ward in the same hospital (who didn't know me or my old man), came into my garage with her car with a problem. She had just finished a night shift and told me that she had stopped off in the oratory in the hospital, to pray that there was nothing seriously wrong with her car, because she couldn't afford a major or even a non-major car repair bill.

Now this same nurse, 2-3 years later is being asked to shoulder the banks. Not on I say...

K-9

Unions don't represent most Private Sector workers.

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

I remember back on 2006, my old man had a serious health scare. He was rushed to St. James A & E where, due to the very best of immediate medical care, he survived a medical event that should have killed him stone dead before he even got to the hospital. At the time, I had an independent garage in Dublin and a few short months after this event happened, a nurse working in the same A & E ward in the same hospital (who didn't know me or my old man), came into my garage with her car with a problem. She had just finished a night shift and told me that she had stopped off in the oratory in the hospital, to pray that there was nothing seriously wrong with her car, because she couldn't afford a major or even a non-major car repair bill.

Now this same nurse, 2-3 years later is being asked to shoulder the banks. Not on I say...

that nurse sounds like the daughter of a farmer , playing the poor mouth

still im sure that sob story works a lot of the time

BroomBurner

K-9 wrote: »

Unions don't represent most Private Sector workers.

Sorry, what?

K-9

BroomBurner wrote: »

Sorry, what?

The latest Quarterly National Household Survey, which measured union membership, published in April of this year, found that there were 551,700 union members in 2007.

This is a bit more than a quarter of the workforce, which is over 2.1 million. However, when you consider that there are (depending on how you measure it) about 350,000 employed in the public sector, where the vast majority are union members, it leaves union penetration in the private sector at somewhere less than 15 per cent.

Excluding owners and their families and the self-employed, it still leaves union penetration at less than 20 per cent in the private sector.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/08/10/story35050.asp

BroomBurner

K-9 wrote: »

The latest Quarterly National Household Survey, which measured union membership, published in April of this year, found that there were 551,700 union members in 2007.

This is a bit more than a quarter of the workforce, which is over 2.1 million. However, when you consider that there are (depending on how you measure it) about 350,000 employed in the public sector, where the vast majority are union members, it leaves union penetration in the private sector at somewhere less than 15 per cent.

Excluding owners and their families and the self-employed, it still leaves union penetration at less than 20 per cent in the private sector.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/08/10/story35050.asp

Sorry, I just don't understand the relevancy of that to the thread.

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

that nurse sounds like the daughter of a farmer , playing the poor mouth

still im sure that sob story works a lot of the time

That is spite.

K-9

BroomBurner wrote: »

Sorry, I just don't understand the relevancy of that to the thread.

It might explain the lack of support by many on this thread, Unions are dying except for some strange reason in the public sector.

They are just as out of touch as the Govt. is.

NewDubliner

irish_bob wrote: »

the headlines appear to read that the unions and public sector are against any form of levy or pay cut at all

That would be because the newspapers are owned by big business.

k-9 wrote:

it still leaves union penetration at less than 20 per cent in the private sector.

No doubt because private sector workers are so well treated by their employers they don't need unions to help them. (BTW Does the IBOA count as a union?)

nesf

Darragh29 wrote: »

Now this same nurse, 2-3 years later is being asked to shoulder the banks. Not on I say...

You do realise that fixing the banking system is not optional and that we have little or not choice over the matter don't you?

nesf

NewDubliner wrote: »

That would be because the newspapers are owned by big business.

And because of the rhetoric coming out of the likes of Liam Doran et al.

K-9

NewDubliner wrote: »

No doubt because private sector workers are so well treated by their employers they don't need unions to help them.

I thought the private sector was better paid than the Public Sector and there's loads of bonuses and perks there?