National Demonstration set for Feb 21... Are you participating?

nesf

thomasj wrote: »

okay fair enough i see what you mean. but the point of that article was to show that even in the good times the increases compared to the european average, like 3.6 to 6.2 just goes to show. Also the point that some people the government and media tell them what to think, they have a closed mind afraid to look the other way.

One of the core problems is that we spend roughly the European average of GDP on the public pay bill while taking in far below the European average in taxes out of GDP.

We can't have it both ways unfortunately.

jetsonx

donegalfella wrote: »

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+ 1 ....this is ther kernel of the whole situation. Nobody spoke out when times were good.

K-9

thomasj wrote: »

okay fair enough i see what you mean. but the point of that article was to show that even in the good times the increases compared to the european average, like 3.6 to 6.2 just goes to show.

No it shows our tax revenues were reliant on Construction for the last 5/6 years, unlike a lot of European countries.

That resulted in big stamp duty, Corporation Tax etc. receipts, built on a bubble, unlike many other EU Countries. PAYE/PRSI Income was huge through full employment and immigrants.

Our Construction tax revenues were huge, so the 3.6 is a skewed figure.

K-9

nesf wrote: »

One of the core problems is that we spend roughly the European average of GDP on the public pay bill while taking in far below the European average in taxes out of GDP.

We can't have it both ways unfortunately.

Nail on head.

Pride Fighter

I might go for the laugh.

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

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In the weeks leading up to the big announcement we were all wondering in work about how much public servants were going to be hit for, and what else was going to be done.

We were listening to Cowen's speech when fear and acceptance turned to absolute outrage.

15 or so minutes of sh1te to cover

Pension Levy
Black babies get less money
Fiddle around with NDP to save a couple of hundred million on the accounting practices

And

......

Wait for it

......

?

.....

That's it. Bog all else.

Six months to come up with that. We had a long campaign by the government and IBEC against Public Servants and that was the plan.

That's when fear turned to outrage. The country, and especially public servants were set up for pay cuts, tax hikes, service charges and whatever hell else was coming our way. (Which public servants knew they'd have to pay as well by the way.)

But no, public servants are b@st@rds and we're going to screw them.

That's why we're p1ssed off.

dresden8

jetsonx wrote: »

+ 1 ....this is ther kernel of the whole situation. Nobody spoke out when times were good.

This story has been developing since the 2002 OECD report which said that the Irish economy was over-dependant on construction and extremely vulnerable to a downturn.

I think you'll find that those of us who spoke out were told to go kill ourselves.

Permabear

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dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

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I don't know how many will be public servants but some of them will. And no, nobody's job is safe these days, no matter what the government is telling you.

And don't throw the ESB at us. They're not paying the levy* and they get a pay rise. Just like Bank of Ireland. How fair is that?

The private sector likes to carry the unemployed on a cross before them saying they're getting screwed.

Some of the private sector are not getting screwed, they are getting bonuses.

All of the public sector is taking a cut.

*When I say paying the levy I mean taking a pay cut.

Permabear

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Lplated

When ICTU proposes some sensible way of marrying the difference between our 57billion expenditure and 39 billion income, i might listen to them or join their 'day of action'.

Lplated

dresden8 wrote: »

All of the public sector is taking a cut.

*When I say paying the levy I mean taking a pay cut.

They're not 'taking a cut' - they're paying something towards their guaranteed pensions.

gandalf

donegalfella wrote: »

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I agree wholeheartedly with this mans comments. I entered the workforce towards the end of the last recession, I was lucky that taught me to save and when I did make a decision to buy a place of my own I had enough aside to ensure I wasn't burdened with a huge mortgage.

If people were silly and overspent whether it was reckless or they were easily led by the spin and crud that the FF spin doctors wove around the mystical Celtic Tiger then they have no one but themselves to blame. Booms historically are cyclical and they have to end and when they do there is pain. The Government if they had done their job properly should have prepared for this by streamlining the Public Services to ensure they were capable of delivering service and value for money. They copped out.

dresden8

Lplated wrote: »

They're not 'taking a cut' - they're paying something towards their guaranteed pensions.

No.

If you pay something towards your pension it goes into an investment fund where it hopefully earns money to pay for future pension liabilities.

This is a pay cut so that the government can afford to put more money in the banks. They are putting the National Pensions Reserve Fund in the banks. 7 billion just disappeared into a black hole yesterday. More of yours and my pension money is going to disappear into this black hole.

Very shortly there will be no pension money. Nobody remember that Pension timebomb? Well, it just got worse.

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, but a lot of people who haven't lost their jobs or are not going to lose their jobs are riding on the back of those who have or are about to.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not only high profile bankers, no.

donegalfella wrote: »

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If you had bothered to read my early reply there was an acceptance that there would be cuts. We were prepared for a package to sort out the economy. We're not prepared to be the only ones. Any goodwill the government had they threw out the window.

Permabear

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thomasj

and you honestly think throwing all the money into the banking sector is acting in the national interest?

How long does this country have to stop all investment, jobs creation etc. just to keep banks afloat before we realise it was a big waste?

BroomBurner

"The relevancy is that the unions main constituency are the public sector workers. Therefore, the main interest is in protecting the pay and remuneration of the workers in that sector, even where that is not in the interests of public sector workers, or the country as a whole. Even worse, they have developed a cozy relationship with the government itself. Therefore they are compromised and will make no criticism of even the most blatant excesses within the political system. Excesses which are contributing in no small way to the overall problem."

My quote thing isn't working for this.

Anywayn, K-9, the unions are doing their job, so what? that's what they're there for.

This whole thread has become the same useless bandying about of hatred, ignorance and vitriol

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

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We were expecting a "solid dose of realism" as you put it. We are still prepared to accept it. The whole freaking country needs to accept a "solid dose of realism". We will not be scapegoated and singled out.

Seriously, read my replies please.

Permabear

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yoshytoshy

nesf wrote: »

Letting a bank fail I've no problem with, letting the entire banking system fail would amount to more than a few ripples in the pond and I'm not convinced that people who call for such fully realise how big these ripples would be.

Thats exactly the problem that the public sector fails to see. The banks will repocess everything to recoup any cash available ,the 7bn will hopefully cover the banks until we get back on our feet again.

The biggest issue over the years has been estate agents push on prices and the banks greed.
The government were happy to collect the taxes.

K-9

BroomBurner wrote: »

"The relevancy is that the unions main constituency are the public sector workers. Therefore, the main interest is in protecting the pay and remuneration of the workers in that sector, even where that is not in the interests of public sector workers, or the country as a whole. Even worse, they have developed a cozy relationship with the government itself. Therefore they are compromised and will make no criticism of even the most blatant excesses within the political system. Excesses which are contributing in no small way to the overall problem."

My quote thing isn't working for this.

Anywayn, K-9, the unions are doing their job, so what? that's what they're there for.

This whole thread has become the same useless bandying about of hatred, ignorance and vitriol

Yes the Unions are doing their job, doesn't mean it's the right thing or that they should be listened to.

The thread really is simple. €39 Billion tax revenues and falling versus €57 Billion.

ixoy

dresden8 wrote: »

We were expecting a "solid dose of realism" as you put it. We are still prepared to accept it. The whole freaking country needs to accept a "solid dose of realism". We will not be scapegoated and singled out.

Would you be prepared to accept the levy if, at the same time, the government introduced a number of other measures: increased taxes, much harsher punishment of banks...?

Permabear

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thomasj

ixoy wrote: »

Would you be prepared to accept the levy if, at the same time, the government introduced a number of other measures: increased taxes, much harsher punishment of banks...?

I would the problem I have is that for this 7 billion the banks are getting, they are going to be allowed to continue their shoddy practicing.

I am bracing myself for tax increases am ready for them, and will accept them no problem. But so has the private sector to. My point is, that sqeezing every possible cent out of the public sector is not going to be nearly enough. Everyone public and private must be prepared to bite the bullet.

yoshytoshy

thomasj wrote: »

I am bracing myself for tax increases am ready for them, and will accept them no problem. But so has the private sector to. My point is, that sqeezing every possible cent out of the public sector is not going to be nearly enough. Everyone public and private must be prepared to bite the bullet.

I know of people in trouble going back over two years ,2,000 jobs lost yesterday.
The bracing has finished ,it's time to leave your time machine.

ongarite

thomasj wrote: »

I would the problem I have is that for this 7 billion the banks are getting, they are going to be allowed to continue their shoddy practicing.

I am bracing myself for tax increases am ready for them, and will accept them no problem. But so has the private sector to. My point is, that sqeezing every possible cent out of the public sector is not going to be nearly enough. Everyone public and private must be prepared to bite the bullet.

I don't think I have ever heard a private sector worker say they are unwilling to bite the bullet and pay more taxes. Already taken a pay cut and expect a large tax increase also.

Not complaining, won't be marching on 21st February as I will be in work doing my best to keep my job.

dresden8

ixoy wrote: »

Would you be prepared to accept the levy if, at the same time, the government introduced a number of other measures: increased taxes, much harsher punishment of banks...?

Yes, that was what the whole country was waiting for. For example, if the country can't afford the pay deal, cancel it for all employees, not just public servants.

I realise they may very well carry out these things in the future, but why wait, the situation is dire.

P1ss or get off the pot.

Oh, and it's still not a levy, it's a pay cut.

Scofflaw

thomasj wrote: »

I would the problem I have is that for this 7 billion the banks are getting, they are going to be allowed to continue their shoddy practicing.

I am bracing myself for tax increases am ready for them, and will accept them no problem. But so has the private sector to. My point is, that sqeezing every possible cent out of the public sector is not going to be nearly enough. Everyone public and private must be prepared to bite the bullet.

We bite the bullet in different ways. In the private sector we can lose our jobs, our businesses, our livelihoods. We can be left doing the job of two people because the other has been let go. We can wind up having to work weekends or second jobs to make up for lost customers. When unemployment rises it doesn't mean there's simply a segment of the workforce that has no job while the lucky ones keep theirs - it means that everyone has an increased chance of spending time out of work. That means everyone has an uncertain future - those of us that have jobs and businesses do not know whether we will still have them by summer, or next Christmas.

Until all that is true of the public sector, you're simply not sharing the same kind of pain.

cordially,
Scofflaw

destroyer

Fairness is needed so..........

Put the levy on all workers , Public and Private sector, then sack 40,000
public sector workers and cut wages of those left by 10%, then all will
be suffering equally and all can march together against the tyranny of
the Gov. Happy days.