National Demonstration set for Feb 21... Are you participating?

Hillel

cavedave wrote: »

That's British pound which i think was at parity at the time. When did dev say that?

*"that no man is worth more than the country can afford to pay" from 1933
In 2007, £1000 0s 0d from 1933 is worth
£50,880.52 using the retail price index.
£193,898.29 using average earnings.

Not a bad benchmark, ballpark €220,000 or €280,000 dollars.
It also compares favourably with Barack Obama's $500,000 salary limit on senior executives at companies receiving “extraordinary aid” under the federal bailout.

Mad Finn

Dark_lord_ire wrote: »

I do feel bad for everyone losing there jobs and will accept a pay cut but its not fair its the foot soldiers thats are paying the most.

You're not getting a pay cut.

That may sound like a semantic argument given that you are, or will be, seeing a reduction in your take home pay, but the money that is being deducted is nominally going into your pension.

This is important because those lucky enough to be on defined benefits pensions, which I believe includes most civil servants, have their pensions calculated on what their final salary was. So when you come to collect that pension, it will not be reduced by your wages being cut because strictly speaking, they weren't.

Now take somebody from the private sector. Especially the self employed. Many of them will have to reduce their payments into their personal pension plans because their income has slumped. Also, when they come to cash in their pensions, the amount they get will be related directly to what they put in. It will also be related directly to the state of the stock market at the time they cash in. If their investments have tanked, then too bad. They only get what their fund was worth.

Those fortunate enough to be on defined benefits schemes will have no such worries. If the market has tanked, they still get paid a proportion of their final salary. Who makes up the shortfall? The poor old tax payer, that's who. Including those whose pensions have been reduced because their funds declined. "Through no fault of their own."

Forgive me if I don't burst into tears for the public sector employees who have that security in retirement to look forward to. All that has happened is they have to pay a little more now for that life long security later. I feel my sympathies are more deserved elsewhere.

And no, I won't be taking part in any march led by SIPTU.

NewDubliner

Mad Finn wrote: »

Those fortunate enough to be on defined benefits schemes will have no such worries. If the market has tanked, they still get paid a proportion of their final salary. Who makes up the shortfall? The poor old tax payer, that's who.

You're making the assumption that the only defined benefit schemes are public-sector ones, funded by the taxpayer.

Hillel

NewDubliner wrote: »

You're making the assumption that the only defined benefit schemes are public-sector ones, funded by the taxpayer.

You're absolutely correct. There are defined benefit schemes in the private sector.
But there are differences:
1. Most, if not all, are closed to new entrants.
2. Most, if not all, are not index index-linked.
(Where there is provision for annual increases, which is not always the case, the maximum yearly increase tends to be capped at a modest level.)
3. Most, if not all, have no provision for linking pensioners pay to that of serving grades.
4. The pension fund is not state guaranteed.
5. The concept of benchmarking for pensioners does not exist in the private sector.

So, to the limited extend that they do exist in the private sector, they are not nearly as valuable as the defined benefit pension in the public sector.

With regard the above, I am open to correction in relation to specific private sector Defined Benefit Schemes.

Hillel

Mad Finn wrote: »

You're not getting a pay cut.
Now take somebody from the private sector. Especially the self employed. Many of them will have to reduce their payments into their personal pension plans because their income has slumped. Also, when they come to cash in their pensions, the amount they get will be related directly to what they put in. It will also be related directly to the state of the stock market at the time they cash in. If their investments have tanked, then too bad. They only get what their fund was worth.

To be fair, many self-employed made serious money during the good times. Money that most PAYE workers, public or private, could not come near.
The more substantive issue, to me at any rate, is that money paid by all private sector workers pension funds has now been hit hard, with losses of 30% +. This is a savage hit and appears to be beyond the comprehension of public sector workers.

NewDubliner

Hillel wrote: »

The more substantive issue, to me at any rate, is that money paid by all private sector workers pension funds has now been hit hard, with losses of 30% +. This is a savage hit and appears to be beyond the comprehension of public sector workers.

I think everyone understands that the too much of the funds invested by private sector workers to top up their defined benefit Social Welfare Contributory (SWCP) entitlement, were invested in in high-risk businesses and activities & in some cases, the money was recklessly managed by the private sector in a way not dissimilar to fraud.

truthflyer

Don't fret, the IMF will be along soon enough.

B****ing about a 7% pension levy.....LOL

Public Servants, 50% pay cuts and 70K of the parasites to go

mojorisin

We do need to protest, but not for unions, pay deals or pension levies. We need to protest to get Fianna Fail out of government and have a FG/Labour government in power.

We need to protest to get Pat Neary and Sean Fitzpatrick in prison.

We need to protest to get Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan in prison.

Why are we paying for their incompetence?

OUST OUST OUST!!!

lostexpectation

is charlie mccreevy in the country, its his fault we need to protest him

lods

mojorisin wrote: »

We do need to protest, but not for unions, pay deals or pension levies. We need to protest to get Fianna Fail out of government and have a FG/Labour government in power.

We need to protest to get Pat Neary and Sean Fitzpatrick in prison.

We need to protest to get Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan in prison.

Why are we paying for their incompetence?

OUST OUST OUST!!!

Oh yes , it'll all be solved with Enda leading us:rolleyes:

MG

lods wrote: »

Oh yes , it'll all be solved with Enda leading us:rolleyes:

Yeah bring back Bertie!

Or is he too busy explaining those loans. They should leave him alone about those loans, sure what have they got to do with anything?

Hang on a sec - dodgy loans? Bertie? Sean Fitzpatrick? My God there's a pattern here! :rolleyes:

lods

MG wrote: »

Yeah bring back Bertie!

Or is he too busy explaining those loans. They should leave him alone about those loans, sure what have they got to do with anything?

Hang on a sec - dodgy loans? Bertie? Sean Fitzpatrick? My God there's a pattern here! :rolleyes:

Irish Nationwide gave tens of millions worth of sterling and dollar loans to Mr FitzPatrick as part of his loan transfers between the two institutions to conceal up to €122 million in borrowings from Anglo Irish.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0217/angloirish.html
The two are so similar:rolleyes:; don't let the truth get in the way of a little Bertie bashing. You’re very naïve if you believe a change of government will solve the problems were in at the moment. As for the country being led by Enda Kenny:eek:, Your having a laugh. Maybe if FG got rid of him and put Richard Bruton in maybe.

gandalf

lods wrote: »

As for the country being led by Enda Kenny:eek:, Your having a laugh.

At this stage even Bosco would be an improvement on Brian Cowan :rolleyes:

And even then we still have a puppet as the Taoiseach

LMulhaire

This is ICTU's brief outline of what this protest is about.

Protecting Jobs and Tackling Unemployment
The Banking Crisis and the Public Interest
Competitiveness
The Pay Agreement
Fairness & Taxation
Restoring Consumer Confidence
The Public Sector Pension 'Levy'
The Private Sector Pension Crisis
Employment Rights
National Recovery Bond

This is not about public versus private sector. This is about the state of the nation as a whole and the fact that our leaders have their heads in the sand. The country cannot move forward without the support of the public and private sectors and the sooner we stop attacking each other the better. This tendency to isolate ourselves and look out for number one is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. And yes, I will be attending even though I am not a public servant or a member of a union.

Darragh29

LMulhaire wrote: »

This is ICTU's brief outline of what this protest is about.

Protecting Jobs and Tackling Unemployment
The Banking Crisis and the Public Interest
Competitiveness
The Pay Agreement
Fairness & Taxation
Restoring Consumer Confidence
The Public Sector Pension 'Levy'
The Private Sector Pension Crisis
Employment Rights
National Recovery Bond

This is not about public versus private sector. This is about the state of the nation as a whole and the fact that our leaders have their heads in the sand. The country cannot move forward without the support of the public and private sectors and the sooner we stop attacking each other the better. This tendency to isolate ourselves and look out for number one is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. And yes, I will be attending even though I am not a public servant or a member of a union.

Couldn't agree more. I'm self employed and am marching because I think the way things are going here, our great great grandchildren will still be picking up the pieces of this mess. This isn't about a levy for me, there is an absence of any direction at all to getting us out of this, the man simply isn't up to the job, it's as simple as that...

lods

Thousands of people have gathered in Dublin city centre to demonstrate over the impact of the economic recession on workers.
An estimated 10,000 people have turned out for the protest, which started at Parnell Square at 2pm

General Secretary of ICTU David Begg has said that if 50,000 attend the protest march it will send a resounding message to the Government that people do support Congress' ten point plan for social solidarity.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0221/protest.html

Way short of the 50K David Begg was looking for & a fine day, so no excuses.

nesf

lods wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0221/protest.html

Way short of the 50K David Begg was looking for & a fine day, so no excuses.

RTE are now reporting 100,000 according to the unions, or 70,000 to 80,000 according to the Gardaí.

mallet head

lods wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0221/protest.html

Way short of the 50K David Begg was looking for & a fine day, so no excuses.

Hopefully he'll crawl back under the rock he was under till the public sector got hit.

Unions in this country are a joke.

yankinlk

nesf wrote: »

RTE are now reporting 100,000 according to the unions, or 70,000 to 80,000 according to the Gardaí.

Independent adjudicators to the helicopters please!

lods

nesf wrote: »

RTE are now reporting 100,000 according to the unions, or 70,000 to 80,000 according to the Gardaí.

yeah not much between 10,000 and 100,000
:rolleyes:

ixoy

It'd be interesting if we got to find out how many were public and how many private - I'm still far from convinced that this is about everyone, and not mostly about the pension levy and the unionised industries no matter how many posters ICTU plaster about the place.

mike65

Never trust turn out figuers, unless you use imaging any estimate is a guess that'll be higher or lower depending on teh agenda.

Hopefully the media will be doing vox-pops to try to get a feel for public/private ratio

*Honey*

nesf wrote: »

RTE are now reporting 100,000 according to the unions, or 70,000 to 80,000 according to the Gardaí.

I was up at the top when the speeches were being made... the offical Gardai figures were 100,000 people in attendance.