The Ultimate Irish Hunting Knife

lordarpad

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Double Barrel wrote: »

Interesting subject Mr Moore and you seem to have garnered a fair amount of interest. Ten pages and by the looks of it we have a ways to go.

I have a question, is the knife in question primary job to be as a field dressing knife - or - as an all-around hunting knife ? I know the title is "The Ultimate Irish Hunting Knife" but I think we need a few parameters.

John Griffin and others have broached this subject but I am not aware of an outcome and now we have come to the length of the blade.

If the primary purpose is "field dressing" then IHMO you only need a knife to cut through the hide and through the animals stomach muscle, genital to the sternum. Cut the diaphragm away from the deer's chest cavity, cut the oesophagus out (a gralloching blade would be handy here). After it is cut simply pull the heart and lungs out and with it comes the rest of the intestines. Done. Dispose of the entrails. Drag the deer to a vehicle and home. Skinning and butchering are usually done at home and require different knives and saws etc.

Maybe I missed it as I admit to not reading every word in this thread.
Great thread by the way.

That and the killing stroke would be my required uses. If i could cale fish with the back that'd be a bonus.

lordarpad

Maybe, I don't know yet.

emcor wrote: »

Same here - really interesting
How about a gut hook on it?

Not a fan. That's what your hands are for.

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

Double Barrell, Thanks for the post
It's a good one as I have to agree with all of the points you made.

We are still in the very early stages though only 2 decisions have been made and they were relatively easy choices to make.

It will be a fixed blade knife and it will by the looks of it be a full tang.

The knife should be an all round hunting knife i.e. one suitable to carry and use while hunting regardless of the game type. This is not to say that just any old knife will do.

What is the ideal blade profile for and why?
How thick should this knife be and why?
How long a blade is required and again why ?

At the end of the project I will build a knife. It will be a knife designed by members of the hunting community in Ireland therefore should be a great hunting knife. This however is assuming that real care and attention is given to each individual step or design element. If it is then the project will succeed. If however it is badly thought out or is just a series of random ideas then the knife will be a failure.

I came to the hunting community with this project because I believe that this is the best place to find out what the ideal knife would be. You folks use knives in the field more than any other community I can think of and I truely believe that if you put your heads together and work through the design, as a team, that the resulting knife will really be the ultimate, as the title of the thread suggests.

I thought John had made some great points in this thread and I would like to see him more involved in the blades design, if he was still nterested in participating. A fixed blade wasn't Johns choice and a full tang wouldn't have been my choice, but the choices have been voted on, so onwards we go.

As I said earlier, at the end of this project, I am going to build A knife .What it will look like, and/or perform that's down to your design. I hope it's the ultimate Irish hunting knife but if it's not thought out seriously then as you know it will be just another gimmicky looking piece of steel among the millions already out there.

I am hoping that you the hunting community see this as a real opportunity to re-design one of the most important tools of your sport.

Mellor

Maybe, I don't know yet.

davymoore wrote: »

What is the ideal blade profile for and why?
How thick should this knife be and why?
How long a blade is required and again why ?

Profile: Heavy Drop profile, see design submitted previously
Reason: Curved edge is best, in my opinion, for generall hunting tasks, skinning, chopping/cutting flesh. The curved edge allows a smaller area of contact which in turn creates greater pressure. This edge profile could also be used with a clip back, the reason I prefere a drop back is that it more naturally fits the hand when additional pressure or control is needed and you place a hand on the back.

Thickness: 3-4mm
Any lighter is too thin in my opinion, 5mm+ is too heavy for a field knife (more suited to utility/tool blades)

Length:90-110mm
Ideal length for general field work

jwshooter

Mellor wrote: »

Profile: Heavy Drop profile, see design submitted previously
Reason: Curved edge is best, in my opinion, for generall hunting tasks, skinning, chopping/cutting flesh. The curved edge allows a smaller area of contact which in turn creates greater pressure. This edge profile could also be used with a clip back, the reason I prefere a drop back is that it more naturally fits the hand when additional pressure or control is needed and you place a hand on the back.

Thickness: 3-4mm
Any lighter is too thin in my opinion, 5mm+ is too heavy for a field knife (more suited to utility/tool blades)

Length:90-110mm
Ideal length for general field work

if you ever used that type of knife in the field it would do your head in
i would not carry this type of blade .
i seen your design and think its not a hunting knife more a skinner and i have half a dozen victorinox knifes in the larder for this type of work.
as i dont skin in the field i would have no use for a knife of this profile .
saying that i use a sharp pointed blade in the larder as i mostly glove skin warm deer .
i have a custom knife in the same profile and dont use it .
if the knife is to be used in the field for dispatching deer or gutting a trout the blade has to be pointed as i have said before .

the very first design davy put up is not too far off ideal.
google is flat out looking for knife related topics , me thinks
not a lot of practially in some of the posts .

Offy

Mellor wrote: »

Profile: Heavy Drop profile, see design submitted previously
Reason: Curved edge is best, in my opinion, for generall hunting tasks, skinning, chopping/cutting flesh. The curved edge allows a smaller area of contact which in turn creates greater pressure. This edge profile could also be used with a clip back, the reason I prefere a drop back is that it more naturally fits the hand when additional pressure or control is needed and you place a hand on the back.

Thickness: 3-4mm
Any lighter is too thin in my opinion, 5mm+ is too heavy for a field knife (more suited to utility/tool blades)

Length:90-110mm
Ideal length for general field work

I agree with everything Mellor says. Sounds just about perfect for an all purpose hunting knife.
It can be curved jwhunter and still have a point but when Im hunting Im often camping so I skin, gut cut meat in the field. I dont want a collection of knives with me, just one that will provide meat, hide, cut light wood, gut fish and on occasion open a tin of beans.

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

Having read the arguments put forward by Offy, JWshooter and Mellor it appears that there is a difference of opinion on the shape of the blade. It sounds like it was a toss up between skinning abilities and dispatching abilities.

Offy and Mellor both seemed to have agreed on a blade length of around the four inch mark. JW I think wanted something a little longer pointier everyone however seemed to agree that a narrow blade was the preferred option but should not be so narrow as to weaken the knife.

Looking at Mellors design I had issues with the Ricasso area and the lack of a choil making it harder to sharpen and with all that blood around I was worried about my hand slipping and catching the business end of the blade

As a compromise would this work ? Not as a final design, but as a starting point.

Offy

I really like that design, would it be possible to sharpen both sides?

Grizzly 45

I like...Could we bring it up to an OA of 10ins and add a thumb rest groove?Might be useful on such a thin blade if we are putting downward pressure?

lordarpad

Maybe, I don't know yet.

and I totally don't, too untraditional for me.

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

Something like this ?



It can be done... not sure if I like the look of it though

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

lordarpad wrote: »

and I totally don't, too untraditional for me.

Fair point mate ... Is there any chance you could do a rough sketch of what you had in mind ?

gofaster_s13

Offy wrote: »

I really like that design, would it be possible to sharpen both sides?

Does anybody know the legalities of carrying a knife like this I thought 3 1/2 inch was the longest blade you could carry and fixed or locking blades were out of the question and Afaik the Guards have a big problem with double edged blades.

Grizzly 45

There is no blade length ASFIK limitations here. Lock back knives are no problem,neither are fixed blades either[two differnt types of knife design]
Not really,just pointy things in general carried and used in the wrong places and times. IOW you are hunting or fishing,which would suggest a legal activity[still].Not down in "Le Gurrier" Nite club on a Sat night looking for aggro cos somone spilled your pint.
Nor is that a full double edge in general like a genuine dagger or FS commando knife.Which due to it's blade shape is as much use for hunting as an ash tray on a motorbike.It is a so called "False edge".

Mellor

Maybe, I don't know yet.

jwshooter wrote: »

if you ever used that type of knife in the field it would do your head in
i would not carry this type of blade .
i seen your design and think its not a hunting knife more a skinner and i have half a dozen victorinox knifes in the larder for this type of work.
as i dont skin in the field i would have no use for a knife of this profile .
saying that i use a sharp pointed blade in the larder as i mostly glove skin warm deer .
i have a custom knife in the same profile and dont use it .
if the knife is to be used in the field for dispatching deer or gutting a trout the blade has to be pointed as i have said before .

Thats fair enough. Obviously what ever knife one uses now or first used will influence what you find best.
I wasn't intending for my design to be a skinner, but a general all rounf blade (not just deer also).

davymoore wrote: »

Looking at Mellors design I had issues with the Ricasso area and the lack of a choil making it harder to sharpen and with all that blood around I was worried about my hand slipping and catching the business end of the blade

Good point regarding the choil, was only a starting point.
I had intended the stainless steel piece at the ricasso to be oversizes to act as a thumb/finger guard, but adding in a more pronounced one is obviously a plus for safety.

Offy wrote: »

I really like that design, would it be possible to sharpen both sides?

I wouldn't be a fan of a double sided hunting knife, I might be missing something but what exactly is the point (besides staying sharp for longer)

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It is a so called "False edge".

It's only a false edge if it's not sharpened but to be honest I preferred the lines on the first pic

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Does anybody know the legalities of carrying a knife like this I thought 3 1/2 inch was the longest blade you could carry and fixed or locking blades were out of the question and Afaik the Guards have a big problem with double edged blades.

PART III OFFENSIVE WEAPONS

[GA]Possession of knives and other articles. 9.—(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), where a person has with him in any public place any knife or any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed, he shall be guilty of an offence.
[GA](2) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
[GA](3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had the article with him for use at work or for a recreational purpose.
[GA](4) Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him), has with him in any public place—
[GA]( a ) any flick-knife, or
[GA]( b ) any other article whatsoever made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person,
[GA]he shall be guilty of an offence.
[GA](5) Where a person has with him in any public place any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise, he shall be guilty of an offence.
[GA](6) In a prosecution for an offence under subsection (5), it shall not be necessary for the prosecution to allege or prove that the intent to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate was intent to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate a particular person; and if, having regard to all the circumstances (including the type of the article alleged to have been intended to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate, the time of the day or night, and the place), the court (or the jury as the case may be) thinks it reasonable to do so, it may regard possession of the article as sufficient evidence of intent in the absence of any adequate explanation by the accused.
[GA]( 7 ) ( a ) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both.
[GA]( b ) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (4) or (5) shall be liable—
[GA](i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both, or
[GA](ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both.
[GA](8) In this section "public place" includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise, and includes any club premises and any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.
[GA](9) In this section "flick-knife" means a knife—
[GA]( a ) which has a blade which opens when hand pressure is applied to a button, spring, lever or other device in or attached to the handle, or
[GA]( b ) which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and when released is locked in an open position by means of a button, spring, lever or other device.


Hope this helps

It's gone up to Five years for possession now though

gofaster_s13

davymoore wrote: »

PART III OFFENSIVE WEAPONS

which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and when released is locked in an open position by means of a button, spring, lever or other device.

This would include most locking blade folders

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

Mellor wrote: »

I had intended the stainless steel piece at the ricasso to be oversizes to act as a thumb/finger guard

Heads Up

We will be reffering to this down the line as the "Bolster" or "finger Guard"

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

This would include most locking blade folders

Not true

Blades which lock open are fine

Blades which spring open or are deployed by any of the above methods and then remain locked open are illegal

jwshooter

just had the tape out on my knifes .
the longest blade i have is 9.5 cm to 8cm s
the one fixed blade i have is 8cm s and its long enough.
the handle on it is 120 cms and i have a big hand so its plenty total length 20 cm s.
one of the knifes a buck alpha, has a small choil on the blade take my word its a curse in the field getting snagged when gralloching and working on deer i filed it off

Mellor

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is no blade length ASFIK limitations here. Lock back knives are no problem,neither are fixed blades either[two differnt types of knife design]
Not really,just pointy things in general carried and used in the wrong places and times. IOW you are hunting or fishing,which would suggest a legal activity[still].Not down in "Le Gurrier" Nite club on a Sat night looking for aggro cos somone spilled your pint.

Grizzly is spot on.
Its illegal to carry any knife or blade.
A reasonable defense is any suitable reason or need due to work or hobby.

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

PART III OFFENSIVE WEAPONS
which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and when released is locked in an open position by means of a button, spring, lever or other device.

This would include most locking blade folders

No it wouldn't. The ban is quite clear. It would apply to a folder that was loose enough to flick open, but thats hardly a suitable hunting knife or one that was suggested here

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

By the way if any of you are looking for inspiration TRY HERE

If your looking for a reasonably priced custom knife ......well you'll see for yourself

Offy

Mellor wrote: »

I wouldn't be a fan of a double sided hunting knife, I might be missing something but what exactly is the point (besides staying sharp for longer)

With two blades I can sharpen one for skining and one for general use. Its something Ive done since I was a teen. One side for skining and cutting meat and one side for wood or anything that might damage the good side.

lordarpad

Maybe, I don't know yet.

davymoore wrote: »

Heads Up

We will be reffering to this down the line as the "Bolster" or "finger Guard"

Not quillon?

BTW here is my drawing:



main blade hollow ground mefinks.

This one strikes me as very nice, only straight and not bent: http://www.knifeart.com/chuboblayhuk.html

jwshooter

lordarpad wrote: »

Not quillon?

BTW here is my drawing:



main blade hollow ground mefinks.

This one strikes me as very nice, only straight and not bent: http://www.knifeart.com/chuboblayhuk.html

its a BIG knife
also think 2mm it thick enough for the blade

lordarpad

Maybe, I don't know yet.

5" blade would be too big for me too, but i like the basic aesthetic. the gig hollow ground part and the quillon.

jwshooter

davymoore wrote: »

I would like to move on to step 2 but I can't end the blimmin Poll as it won't time out till Friday Morning. Also I cant add a second poll. I am hoping that when the current poll eventually times out that I can add another at that point.

Anyway regarding Step 2 Mellor you are bang on mate

Blade Shape and Thickness

But also (As it looks like it will definitely be a fixed blade)

Full Tang or Hidden Tang

Just in case you are not sure of the difference.



No need to vote yet but feel free to express your opinions on why you like dislike a particular style.

Davy

I'll post some basic blade shapes later just to get the ball rolling

i very much like the shape of this blade ,not sure whats its called but i would use it .
as long as it was not thick or long

fish slapped

I would have to agree with JW, I quite like the profile of that knife, except a straighter handel

fish slapped

I would have to agree with JW, I quite like the profile of that knife, except a straighter handel and I think a 4 1/2" blade would be just about right.

lordarpad

Maybe, I don't know yet.

good old bowie knife

Double Barrel

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Thanks for the clarification DavyM.

How about this one lads, I thought it a bit long at first but it feels like a smaller knife when I put it to work. A well balanced knife and holds an edge.




Blade: 4.75 - 120mm x 1.0" - 25.4mm
Knife: 9.375 - 235mm
Thick:.170 - 4.3mm

Double Barrel

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Overall length: 7 1/2"
Blade length: 3 3/8"
Blade thickness: 0.135”
Weight: 4.5 oz.
Blade steel: D2

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

DB
I find it interesting that you have chosen two knives with very modern looking lines. What really intrigues me is the fact that neither of these handle options include either finger guards, Bolsters or Pommels.

Would this be your preference in general and why ? What I mean is, is it the aesthetics you prefer or is there some practical reason for these choices ?

[Edit]
Just noticed the kydex sheath

jwshooter

DB i would not have the first knife but the second one has to be worth a another look size is good and the profile of the blade is getting there .

davy the modern look i have no problem with as long as its well made with good quality material.
but this is further down the line for decision.
may i ask you a question .as a crafts man like myself you must be able to see in your minds eye the finished knife ,i would be very interested in your interpretation of it .

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

JW To be totally honest with you I can't see it. I would have gone with a hidden tang and played around with the design elements of the handle to get that Irish feeling maybe using antler and silver but we are gone down a different path.

It is possible that we might go down a more modern route alltogether and that's fine by me as I do like some of the modern makers work.

Double Barrel

Maybe, I don't know yet.

"is it the aesthetics you prefer or is there some practical reason for these choices ?"

DavyM

Purely practical. They are tools. The first knife is almost always in the Land Rover and the smaller one is tucked away in the tractor cab. They are working knives. I try not to abuse them but if need be I will take some lea-way

Now the knives below are aesthetically pleasing and no doubt will do the job but you will not find me taking knifes like those out in the soaking rain and muck or letting them sit in the LR or barn for weeks on end. I consider them fair weather knifes.

JW, the smaller knife is reached for regularly.


Sorry to say none of these are mine. But I like them.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3617/3287563323_34209f0d93_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3656/3287563257_8fec3bee6f_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/3287563423_2a4a3e1d9a_o.jpg

gofaster_s13

This is the knife that I have found to be nearly perfect as an all round hunting knife be it for skinning or for making hides


Blade Length - 4 1/2"
Blade Thickness - 3/16"
Overall Length - 9"
Handle - Respirine C;
Material - SR101 Steel hardened at 58-60 RC, cryo quenched;

The handle material is particularly suited to hunting knives as it is a rubberised material which is nice in cold weather also remains very grippy even when soaked in blood etc(or diesel as it has been). The blade shape is also nice and seems suited to many tasks though it would be nice for it to be sharpened for maybe 10mm down from the tip on the back of the blade. Not sure could it be "Irished" though.

Double Barrel

Maybe, I don't know yet.

I would classify these as "Hunters".
I like the "looks" and hold the blades to between 3.75 & 4.75".

Double Barrel

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Meat and Potatoes Knife:
Blade:3.75 - Handle: 4.75 - 440C

jwshooter

one problem with them all DB ...no blood on them

jwshooter

davymoore wrote: »

JW To be totally honest with you I can't see it. I would have gone with a hidden tang and played around with the design elements of the handle to get that Irish feeling maybe using antler and silver but we are gone down a different path.

It is possible that we might go down a more modern route alltogether and that's fine by me as I do like some of the modern makers work.

i hope so davy, a practical knife made to be used .

i would also like to see the same knife made but it would be a collectors knife for occasional use ,that you can show your true talent on .

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

It's very interesting to me that the knives picked out , by photograph, for display in the thread ,as favourites or ideas, fit into two distinct categories, So Far

I realize that anyone can post their next pick and refute this but So Far .......

What we have is either a modern styled knife with no fancy fittings and that knife being full tang............ Or a more traditional looking knife that is hidden tang and more ornate.

I have also found this day to day whilst building commissions.

Is there a reason for this?

What I mean is... does a perceived lack of strength [myth .. [see hidden v full tang arguments] inhibit artistic license or intricacy? Even if it's only our own perception

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/3287563423_2a4a3e1d9a_o.jpg

DB

That J Nielson Bowie is fantastic, He is one of the worlds top makers and he along with Jerry Fisk is among my knifemaking heroes. I was lucky enough to live in Arkansas for some years and got to see some of their outstanding workmanship.

there's a fisk knife on the same website
http://www.arkansasknifemakers.com/maxpages/Art_Award

jwshooter

A hell davy your a bling man

Offy

davymoore wrote: »

It's very interesting to me that the knives picked out , by photograph, for display in the thread ,as favourites or ideas, fit into two distinct categories, So Far

I realize that anyone can post their next pick and refute this but So Far .......

What we have is either a modern styled knife with no fancy fittings and that knife being full tang............ Or a more traditional looking knife that is hidden tang and more ornate.

I have also found this day to day whilst building commissions.

Is there a reason for this?

What I mean is... does a perceived lack of strength [myth .. [see hidden v full tang arguments] inhibit artistic license or intricacy? Even if it's only our own perception

I had a hidden tang knife years ago, the handle split when I was using it one day and since then I've prefered full tang knives with a solid handle, I hate a knife that slips as Im using it. I dont really care what the knife looks like as long as it cuts cleanly. The blade length and shape are also important, 3-4" suits me well with a slightly curved blade. I can use a knife that size and shape but anything bigger I find awkward and cumbersome.

J.R.

Maybe, I don't know yet.

davymoore wrote: »

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/3287563423_2a4a3e1d9a_o.jpg

DB

That J Nielson Bowie is fantastic, He is one of the worlds top makers and he along with Jerry Fisk is among my knifemaking heroes. I was lucky enough to live in Arkansas for some years and got to see some of their outstanding workmanship.

there's a fisk knife on the same website
http://www.arkansasknifemakers.com/maxpages/Art_Award

That fisk knife is an absolute beauty!

lordarpad

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Double Barrel wrote: »

I would classify these as "Hunters".
I like the "looks" and hold the blades to between 3.75 & 4.75".

any of these I would take, just go away with that modern **&^%%$!!!!

Mellor

Maybe, I don't know yet.

davymoore wrote: »

What we have is either a modern styled knife with no fancy fittings and that knife being full tang............ Or a more traditional looking knife that is hidden tang and more ornate.


What I mean is... does a perceived lack of strength [myth .. [see hidden v full tang arguments] inhibit artistic license or intricacy? Even if it's only our own perception

I've noticed it too Davy, but i personally think the reason might be the other side. Somebody intending to buy or make a ornate knife avoids full tang because or precieved plainness.

I know I mentioned strength as a reason for choosing full tang. And at this point I feel I wasn't clear. I was refering to weight and the odd butt bashing. I don't think anyone believes that a hidden tang knife might shear off at the hilt (so to speak). It should be plainly obvious that if it was to fail, a timber or bone handle would fail before the steel (bare an impact fracture)

If we are going full tang, I see no reason why we can't skip the mass and go fully ornate.

davymoore

Yes, Sat 22nd only

So what would you think of this blade shape on a full tang knife