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Another victim?? Another first time buyer??

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  • 12-02-2009 11:00pm
    #1
    geggles1
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭


    Where is our bailout????

    We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

    We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

    Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

    Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself for not doing more research about the collapse of other markets, but when you have people of what were once reputable institutions and everyone one around you is advising you to take the leap, it's no wonder there are so many of us stretching ourselves to the limit to provide as best as possible for our children.

    So I ask, where is our bail out? Where is the Taoiseach's help when we need it most? Well it would seem, that the petty criminals i.e. the fat cats sitting in our banks are getting all the help while we pay for their actions. How dare they get bailed out whilst we cling to our jobs for our life. After all, it is without doubt, that their actions over the past 10 years are what have contributed most to this recession. Not only have they been bailed out, but they continue to get rewarded for their bad decisions over the years - a 30% pay cut is a joke. Cowen should be looking to Obama and following in his footsteps with a $500K cap on their earnings. It would seem that our government is completely inept and incapable of being able to relate to what the people of this country actually need.

    I have a family and both myself and my partner work hard - damn hard actually, and I am fed up to the bone of being ripped off by our overpriced market - our wages are absorbed by our mortgage so clearly this is the first point of my frustrations and I know that I am not the only one.

    I would be really interested to hear everyone's thoughts and in particular from other first time buyers to see what type of guideance (if any) was given when purchasing your property. I thinks it's time we took at stance on this and stood together!!


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    #2
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,299 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    If the banks didn't get bailed out, the banks wouldn't lend money to anyone. Not to people looking to get a house, not to people trying to start a business. No-one.


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    #3
    MissMoxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭MissMoxy


    the banks were the ones who caused this whole mess... im losing my wages and people are losing their jobs because of what the banks have done... dont defend them.. If we had a taoiseach with a set of balls maybe he could come up with a better plan to attempt to sort this mess out.... maybe politicians cud take a large pay cut? Heres an idea they cud give up their expenses which is a joke anyway?? They cud give up their jet that has them flying all over the world on hols sorry "business"??


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    #4
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

    You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.


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    #5
    punchestown
    Registered Users Posts: 660 ✭✭✭punchestown


    geggles1 wrote: »
    Where is our bailout????

    We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24,

    Please tell me by first you mean first time buyer and not first as in the beginnings of a budding property portfolio that was your 'pension'


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    #6
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    AARRRGH wrote: »
    Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

    You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

    I am inclined to agree with you. In the last 4 years or so I was in a position where I could buy a house, but to get a house similar in size and close enough to where I work, and also have monthly repayments of a similar amount to what I was paying in rent, would take me roughly 40 years to repay.

    I didnt take the bait, and now am entering this recession in a very comfortable position. While my wages are staying the same, my rent has gone down, what I spend on food/clothes/travel has gone down, and when the house prices hit rock bottom I will be in a position to get a really nice house for a sensible price.

    Sorry OP, but "I didnt know" is not a good enough reason to complain. In the 21st century when information has never been so easy to get a hold of, to say you didnt know that buying a house when prices were sky rocketing is not enough in my opinion.

    Sorry.


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    #7
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I don't know what the OP is sore at? Surely if he could afford it in 2006 then he should also afford it now unless his job prospects change. Even though I bought my home over 10 years ago, the loss of my job would have the same effect when it comes to losing my home as if I bought in the height of the boom.


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    #8
    mopeds
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭mopeds


    AARRRGH wrote: »
    Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

    You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

    Its great to see there are other people out there who think that people need to take responsibility for their own mistakes, it was very clearly a big bubble and if you didnt see that OP its your own fault. Banks didnt help but their main job is to make money for their shareholders, Its your responsibility to look after your own interest


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    #9
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    The banks are indeed being bailed out. That's because the country needs them to continue to function.

    Whether or not the people running those banks get bailed out remains to be seen. Most of Anglo's board is gone. IL&P's board will hopefully be gone by tomorrow.

    Brian Goggin says he expects to earn less than €2M this year. Given the look on Brian Lenihans face on Prime Time this evening, I think Goggin may be lucky to finish this year in posession of his testicles never mind millions in cash.

    Leninan actually agreed with and used the term 'economic treason' this evening in relation to the IL&P Anglo revelations :eek:

    Having said that, the Financial Regulator seems to have gotten away with it and John Hurley is still running the Central Bank :mad:

    Unfortunately none of this helps you OP, but many commentators & observers were warning us long before the peak of the madness.

    Caveat emptor.


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    #10
    Firetrap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭Firetrap


    OP, you have every reason to feel sore about what's happened to you but just like paper never refuses ink, mortgage brokers won't ever refuse a customer. If you went back to that broker today to buy a house, he would tell you the same thing; that you're getting a great deal. The only difference of course would be that you would be told that you're getting a really great deal because you're buying at the bottom of the market :rolleyes:

    Ultimately, you and I and the rest of the people on this board are the small people. What happens to us doesn't amount to a whole lot in the grand scale of things. A bank on the other hand - now that's a different story.


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    #11
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    Ok only on your 4th paragraph do you even consider that you might have some responabilty in the situation and even then it doesnt seem to be serious.

    Break out the violins please.

    I would have had a lot more sympathy if you would accept personal blame 1st then look at the other factors.

    No one put a gun to your head and if the boom was still continuing would we be hearing a world of complaint from you?


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    #12
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    OP, have you lost your job? can you not afford your repayments? has your mortgage not decreased in the last 6 months? Are you getting more interest relief now?

    It sounds to me like your upset that the value of your house has dropped and that is all. Had you of done even the most basic research, like reading this site and even askaboutmoney.com in early 2006, you would have seen that there was a growing number of people question the market and marking strong arguments why it was all going to end in tears.

    You are right that the Financial Regulator should have been putting a stop to such reckless lending by banks, but at the end of the day you are responsible for you own actions and no one else's.
    As for EA's, builders, developers and mortgage brokers taking advantage, what else do you expect? Do you go into a secondhand car dealer and expect that the sales man is working in your best interest and trying to save you money? NO they are there to sell you what they have and for as much money as possible, you cannot blame anyone else for trusting these types but yourself.


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    #13
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    As what others had said i'd like to add the following..

    The one signal i would have had in your position OP without any knowledge of housing markets is:
    Would a house that was going for over 300k in D24 represent good value to you? (tbh, think they were 350k-400k there at the time)

    You, me and alot of others know the answer(madness) to that and that should of been a personal warning sign to everyone that something was amiss and made you walk away from that transaction.


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    #14
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    No sympathy from here either I'm afraid. If you take the biggest financial decision of your life without researching it properly you only have yourself to blame. I think the way the banks behaved was stupid and irresponsible, but banks are businesses and it's naive to expect a business to act in its customers' interests rather than its own.

    What exactly do you expect to be bailed out from anyway? You still have your home, and you knew what it was going to cost you to live there when you bought it didn't you? Are you just feeling deprived of the feeling of security that you imagine owning an appreciating asset would give you?


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    #15
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    geggles1 wrote: »
    Where is our bailout????

    We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

    We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

    Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

    Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself..

    So I ask, where is our bail out? Where is the Taoiseach's help when we need it most? Well it would seem, that the petty criminals i.e. the fat cats sitting in our banks are getting all the help while we pay for their actions.

    You only have your self to blame. Its an unregulated market and you went out and paid top whack. What did you expect -prices to continue to rise?

    Do you have a car loan and should you be bailed out of that too.


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    #16
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    If your house shot up in value by 100k, would you be on boards calling for help for people who took a cautious approach and who continued to rent as they didn't want a mega long term mortgage in an undesirable area?

    Nah, you'd be delighted with yourself for your canny knowledge and what you could with your equity. Maybe trade up to a far better area then Dublin 24?

    You still have your home, you've been meeting your mortgage payments since 2006 so continue to do that and nobody can touch you! So what have you to complain about? You were happy with the price you paid so deal done, what are you looking for?
    Hey I see in the news if you become unemployed and can no longer meet your payments you can pause your mortgage for 12 months

    Hold on while I tell my landlord I can't make rent payment this month, where's my bailout? :P


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    #17
    Highsider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭Highsider


    AARRRGH wrote: »
    Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

    You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.
    Harsh but fair.


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    #18
    Rockshamrover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Rockshamrover


    Has anyone noticed how over the years whenever there were questions raised in the media about property being over priced, the big banks would wheel out their "chief economists" to RTE. These guys would then spout on about how all was well and that the doom and gloom merchants hadn't a clue. Unfortunately most people believed the bank's experts.

    These same experts are still in their jobs and are still being wheeled out but they are singing a different tune now.

    Those unfortunates who now find themselves in dire straits should gather together a collection of the 'All is well" broadcasts and take the banks to the courts.

    I thank God that I am not in the same position as all those who have had their fingers burned. I find it hard to condemn them for being caught out. Especially as their only crime was to believe what their banks told them.


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    #19
    aquascrotum
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭aquascrotum


    AARRRGH is spot on. House vendors, estate agents, mortgage brokers, banks - they're not there for your benefit, they're there for their own.

    The banks, regulator, and our FF "leaders" (and many others) have made an utter balls of things but that doesn't remove personal responsibility the equation. If a person decides to willingly commit to a lifetime of needless debt "because the agent said it was a good deal" without putting in some cursory research and being aware of the implications (above and beyond a sales pitch) then it's their problem.

    If people were gullible enough to suck it all in then tighten them. No sympathy at all for the OP.


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    #20
    MysticalSoul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭MysticalSoul


    OP: You buy a house, you take a chance. Everyone, or so I thought, knew it could not keep going as it was. I too bought in 2006, and I am not complaining, despite having had a 10% pay cut this year (private sector too). The way I look at it, the value doesn't really matter, unless you are thinking of selling.


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    #21
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    aquascrotum wrote: »
    AARRRGH is spot on. House vendors, estate agents, mortgage brokers, banks - they're not there for your benefit, they're there for their own.

    The banks, regulator, and our FF "leaders" (and many others) have made an utter balls of things but that doesn't remove personal responsibility the equation. If a person decides to willingly commit to a lifetime of needless debt "because the agent said it was a good deal" without putting in some cursory research and being aware of the implications (above and beyond a sales pitch) then it's their problem.

    If people were gullible enough to suck it all in then tighten them. No sympathy at all for the OP.

    Yup we are a free market economy and blaming the seller or mortgage company or estate agent for wanting to make a profit is just silly.Blaming the government is like blaming God for the weather.

    You dont go to a bookie for a refund if your horse doesnt win.


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    #22
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    What rubbish.

    Situation a: You have a job and can afford your mortgage. So what if you house falls in value, thats your problem. if it was a good idea to pay x amount in rent 2 years ago then its still ok today.
    situation b: You can't afford your mortgage from losing job or income. Great now the country has to bail out the bank who has a bad asset on their books. Thanks for wasting all our money for being too clueless to realise what you were doing.


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    #23
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Climate Expert wrote: »
    What rubbish.

    Situation a: You have a job and can afford your mortgage. So what if you house falls in value, thats your problem. if it was a good idea to pay x amount in rent 2 years ago then its still ok today.
    situation b: You can't afford your mortgage from losing job or income. Great now the country has to bail out the bank who has a bad asset on their books. Thanks for wasting all our money for being too clueless to realise what you were doing.

    +1 its your fault OP and taxpayers money is bailing you out


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    #24
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    our wages are absorbed by our mortgage so clearly this is the first point of my frustrations and I know that I am not the only one.

    But interest rates have gone way down? So when you got the mortgage you were paying even more. At what point when you were getting a house did you think 'this is quite affordable'?
    You're just bitter because your 'investment' hasn't worked and you can't boast about the value of your home to others.


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    #25
    HashSlinging
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭HashSlinging


    Climate Expert nail on the head.. All the party conversations are "how safe is your job".. not "how much is your house worth" now.. I predicted the burst of the bubble but due to personal circumstances had to buy a house, nothing but kips to rent in the area i was living so bought the cheapest house in the most decent area I could find (afford).. couldnt jump into council accommodation as I didnt qualify (to well off by bout 5k per year) well I hope things start looking up soon.. Some of us are not as lucky as others.


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    #26
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    I nearly bought 2 years ago..house was €290k for a bog standard 3 bed semi-d..got 100% mortgage and had Contracts etc in front of me ready to sign...had a change of heart and pulled out...the house is now on the market for €210k...:eek:

    I just thank my lucky stars I didnt sign those papers..very lucky escape..if I had bought it was my own fault and nobody elses..the hysteria this country went through was unreal...

    the OP is just another Celtic Tiger sob story


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    #27
    dny123456
    Closed Accounts Posts: 431 ✭✭dny123456


    Climate Expert wrote: »
    But interest rates have gone way down? So when you got the mortgage you were paying even more. At what point when you were getting a house did you think 'this is quite affordable'?
    You're just bitter because your 'investment' hasn't worked and you can't boast about the value of your home to others.

    OP might be on fixed rate?

    I'm in a similar situation as OP, except on tracker and bought in 05. House price probably dropped at this stage, I dont know. Dont really care either, mortgage adjusting for Interest reliief, is still a lot less then rent for the same house would be. I've 3 years taken off the 30 year term of the loan. Who cares if the value has gone down. In 27 years I'll have a house :-)

    OP don't worry, its not as bad as you think.


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    #28
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    geggles1 wrote: »
    Where is our bailout????

    a for sale sign maybe?

    geggles1 wrote: »
    We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

    Congratulations, compared to what some banks were lending 5 1/2 times combined seems reasonable enough
    geggles1 wrote: »
    We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

    So considering you were about to make the biggest purchase of your life and get into a few decades of death did you not think of doing some of your own research?
    geggles1 wrote: »
    Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

    Why didn't you do more? the financial regulator is not your personal investment advisor, if your going to purchase a home the onus is on you to get clued in to watch the market maybe pick up a new paper? normal research?
    geggles1 wrote: »
    Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself for not doing more research about the collapse of other markets, but when you have people of what were once reputable institutions and everyone one around you is advising you to take the leap, it's no wonder there are so many of us stretching ourselves to the limit to provide as best as possible for our children.

    why would vested interests advise you against making them money?

    geggles1 wrote: »
    I have a family and both myself and my partner work hard - damn hard actually, and I am fed up to the bone of being ripped off by our overpriced market - our wages are absorbed by our mortgage so clearly this is the first point of my frustrations and I know that I am not the only one.

    I would be really interested to hear everyone's thoughts and in particular from other first time buyers to see what type of guideance (if any) was given when purchasing your property. I thinks it's time we took at stance on this and stood together!!

    did the bank not tell you how much your re-payments would be? did you not add up the figures to see if you could afford the property?

    i dont see why you want to take a stance you purchased a property i take you still live in it? so what exactly is your problem? are you annoyed it's worth less??

    if your property increased by 100k would you want to take a stance?

    i'm really confused to what your issue actually is

    you bought a house your now living in it

    happy days no?


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    #29
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    ntlbell wrote: »
    So considering you were about to make the biggest purchase of your life and get into a few decades of death did you not think of doing some of your own research?

    Suitable typo. :)


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    #30
    Fozzie Bear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Fozzie Bear


    Ah christ almighty would half of ye STFU. Talk about Shadenfraud gone mad. Some posters seem to be actually taking pleasure in rubbing peoples noses in their misfortune. Its your own fault, personal responsibility, I knew it was a bubble, I did not buy, I am great blah blah blah.

    The OP bought an over priced house off the back of the advice they received off their broker, our government, the banks, the media, estate agents and the property developers. These fúckers one and all should be taken out and strung up by their toes nails for what they have done to the country. The ordinary joe soaps on the street who are left with crippling debts, no job and in all likely hood no home do not deserve to be pontificated to by you or me from a top our moral high horse. It is pathetic that all we can say is it's your own fault to the OP.

    His own fault for wanting a home? His own fault that the Government let house prices run unchecked? His own fault that our leaders, bankers and property developers all climbed into bed together and raped the rest of us for all they could and got rich off our blood, sweat and now tears.

    It is not his own fault. It IS the fault of the vested interests in this country who created the bubble and despite knowing what it was and where it was headed continued to advise families to buy knowing they were headed for massive debt, wrecked credit ratings, negative equity, hardship and suffering for the rest of their lives! There are people out there right now who will loose their homes and spend much of their remaining years renting or living with parents while paying off debts and interest while never being able to get credit/loans again.

    As my grandmother used to say "mocking is catching" and some day some of you who are so happy to gloat at the OP might well find yourself in the same boat as the OP and be struggling to meet your debts and obligations because of bad advice or someone else misleading you.

    I'm sure if you do, you will be able to take comfort from people you turn to for help when they reply "its your own fault".


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    #31
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    That post really upset me.

    What about help for the rest of us that didn't mess up. **** the OP and his ilk. **** the bankers, the developers and the journalists who all contributed to this mess which I'm paying for it.
    This is something which has and will have a massive impact on my job prospects, my wage and on my standard of living for the next decade and its not my fault. Its his fault so he can go jump looking for sympathy from me.


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