Another victim?? Another first time buyer??

Firetrap

I assume the OP's bitter because servicing the mortgage is gouging out a large percentage of their income and now they see that they could have bought a house for less and have more money in their pocket.

johnnyskeleton

amdublin wrote: »

I am completely perplexed with the OP's post.

He/she wanted to buy house. He proceeded to buy a house. He is now unhappy with the house because it is now worth less than he paid and he thinks somebody should have advised him of this risk before he bought it???? And he thinks that as this is not his fault he should be "bailed out".

It is almost certain that someone along the line advised him of the risk. For a start, the banks & mortgage brokers usually give these warnings. They are required to give the warnings about repayments going up as well as down and that you might lose your house, but they might often say that the price of the house could go up as well as down. Second was probably at least one friend or family member who told him that it was possible that house prices could go down. Third, most people were at least aware of the likes of David McWilliams and Morgan Kelly and could have looked into them if they cared. Fourth, throughout the boom there were warnings about how prices could come down. I remember very clearly when PTSB & FA launced 100% mortgages every radio, tv and newspaper was talking about the risk of instant negative equity if the price went down. Finally, with the internet the information you need to understand house prices is out there and easily accessable. I think it is beyond doubt that he was told about the risk one way or another. It seems incredible that someone wouldn't know about it. But most likely he chose to ignore this risk.

I think what the OP wanted was someone to predict the future for him, and/or to have someone he can sue for breaching the "property only ever goes up" contract.

johnnyskeleton

Firetrap wrote: »

I assume the OP's bitter because servicing the mortgage is gouging out a large percentage of their income and now they see that they could have bought a house for less and have more money in their pocket.

How about a bailout for the people who couldn't afford to buy during the bubble? This is probably the best thing for the OP. Give everyone who couldn't afford a house during the bubble €100k free with which to buy a house. This will surely buoy up his house price and make good his investment.

Firetrap

Shhhhh. Don't suggest such a thing - next thing we know, Tom Parlon and his buddies will be hailing the scheme :rolleyes:

TwoShedsJackson

Firetrap wrote: »

I assume the OP's bitter because servicing the mortgage is gouging out a large percentage of their income and now they see that they could have bought a house for less and have more money in their pocket.

I think the Irish need to get over their money/property fixation which has in any event brought us to the dire economic straits in which we now find ourselves.

I bought my house in late 2005, fortunately I only needed about an 80% mortgage so we wouldn't be in negative equity I don't think (although probably not far off it).

However here's the thing about negative equity - I don't care if I am in it or not because I love the house and have no intention of selling or moving in at least the next five/six years, probably longer. As a result I don't care about any pie in the sky, pulled it out of my arse number that my house may or may not be worth.

Oh yeah, the other crucial thing, we checked to see if we could afford our repayments over 25 years, and what they might be like if rates went up a few per cent, as they did, and we could still afford it.

I'm not trying to say this in a 'yah booh, we did our research so sucks to be you!!' manner, but I find it hard to be all that sympathetic to people who voluntarily entered into a decades-long financial agreement with such little forethought. Sorry.

00112984

Sorry, OP, while I can see your frustration, I can't see your logic.

We bought in 2006 because an opportunity came up with a property that suited us for a specific reason (we needed wheelchair accessibility for a family member and wanted a place that already had this besides having to adjust anything). We were renting across the street at the time and knew the area. While we weren't actively looking to buy, we had some savings behind us and were in a position to look if something piqued our interest.

Long story short. We bought the property. It's not in an amazing area or anything and it's not gimmicky but we love it and plan on living here for at least another six years. Even if/when we do move, we want to hold on to this property so aren't worried about being in negative equity. Ideally, I'd love to keep this place and leave it to our future children some day.

When we were buying, we paid a lot of attention to the stress testing of payments to account for what position we'd be in if X or Y happened.

You can gripe and moan about being "lead" into thinking you were getting a good deal but, at the end of the day, nobody pointed a gun to your head. If you can still afford the payments, you're no worse off than you were and other economic reasons have probably lead to decreasing bills in other areas.

Look, if you bought in, say, 2001 and were paying €600 a month mortgage, that's all well and good but take someone in that situation and a person paying, say, €1500 a month. If both people lose their jobs, everyone is screwed.

Fatloss08

first off i agree with many , it was your choice to buy a house etc etc if u couldnt pay it

but i agree with op , banks regardless of how much you earn gave the money out willy nilly when there the ones ud expect sound financial dealings with , obviously the banks should have said hey this guy on 30k a year cant pay for a 400k house etc etc , or you dont meet criteria etc , but they threw money at you and now there up **** creek for their dealings and beg the government for help them , so the government in turn are using tax payers money to help the banks screw us more

is that right ?????

forget about the " the government needs banks to keep the country going " the fact is they need us " the people " to keep it going

i find it harsh that our tax payers money is helping the fat cats miss use their powers or money and expect bail outs , at what point do you say " **** it , u created the mess and u sort it "

AARRRGH

If your house is now worth less than you paid for it, you made a bad investment.

If you could never afford the mortgage the bank gave you, then yes, the banks were wrong for giving you that mortgage. However, if you are like the OP and you can afford your mortgage, well then the banks did nothing wrong.

It's a terrible fault to have to blame others for your mistakes.

Fatloss08

AARRRGH wrote: »

If your house is now worth less than you paid for it, you made a bad investment.

If you could never afford the mortgage the bank gave you, then yes, the banks were wrong for giving you that mortgage. However, if you are like the OP and you can afford your mortgage, well then the banks did nothing wrong.

It's a terrible fault to have to blame others for your mistakes.

i agree

but why should the government help banks out ???

why not help owners

loads of what if's on this subject

CDfm

Fatloss08 wrote: »

i agree

but why should the government help banks out ???

why not help owners

loads of what if's on this subject

because by helping the banks they restore confidence it the financial system.

AARRRGH

Fatloss08 wrote: »

i agree

but why should the government help banks out ???

why not help owners

loads of what if's on this subject

Because without a stable banking system our country is a basket case.

jmayo

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout????

We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself for not doing more research about the collapse of other markets, but when you have people of what were once reputable institutions and everyone one around you is advising you to take the leap, it's no wonder there are so many of us stretching ourselves to the limit to provide as best as possible for our children.


...

Ahhhh.
Why do you want us all to say or are you just taking the preverbial here ?

If not the latter then, tough sh**.
Here it is in large letters... YOU MADE A DECISION SO YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.

Sorry, but you are a grown up now, so take a bit of responsibility for your actions.

It appears it is only now you have copped on, we were in a bubble and had you bothered learning about the likes of the Netherlands, Finland, Japan, UK, etc etc ... you might not be in this mess.
Did you just see euro signs and want to get on the gravy train to riches like your mates ?
Did you really have to buy ?
If the vested interests told you Santa was coming at Christmas would you have believed them ?

And before someone has a go that I am cruel.
It is one thing to say I bought and I am angry my house has dropped in value and times are hard, but it is quiet another thing to be looking for a bailout because I couldn't be assed doing a bit of research, I believed all the sh*** I was spoonfed and I am not responsible for my own actions.
Thus I now want someone else to carry the can for my mistakes.

GROW UP and begin acting like an adult.

MG

geggles1 wrote: »

Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself

Deep down, I think people like the OP know this full well.

Strangely enough I was looking through some old posts and came accross quite a few threads from 2006, when the OP bought, with lots of warnings about the collapse.

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

If your house is now worth less than you paid for it, you made a bad investment.

If you could never afford the mortgage the bank gave you, then yes, the banks were wrong for giving you that mortgage. However, if you are like the OP and you can afford your mortgage, well then the banks did nothing wrong.

It's a terrible fault to have to blame others for your mistakes.

I think the general consensus would be that helping banks(as much as I personally disagree with it) is a way to help us all. As opposed to just helping people who bought a house during a boom.

Y'know, it always irked me when David McWilliams' show was on and everyone was giving out about him. He didn't know what he was talking about apparently. It's not like every single person was being positive about property investment. There were many dissenting voices. People chose not to listen. If I knew that buying was a bad idea, then I don't see how other people who were signing half their paycheck away for the next 40 years didn't know.
I would honestly consider myself a spendthrift, but I would seriously put more consideration into buying a roll in spar than some people put into buying a house.

book smarts

Those with property during the boom looked down their noses at those without. They seriously thought they were set for life, and on the way to a property empire. Then they could swan around Brown Thomas in their Mercedes, thinking they were better than the rabble beneath them. It reminds me of that ad a few years ago, where a bunch of 30 somethings at a dinner party are ridiculing friends who've sold everything and opened a restaurant in India. "Where did they go? " one says, "Straight to the bottom of the property ladder!, naw haw haw , haw-haw!" says another.

Well who's laughing now b1tch? I have zero sympathy.

bobbiw

Why should you get a bailout. YOu wanted a house and now you moan and cry that it dropped in price.

Get over it, we need people like you. Without the people who buy houses at the top of the bubble there would be no crash.

And as for the fool who said he would be in a comfortable position to buy a house, that is laughable.

Ireland is headed to an economic catastrophy, it makes nothing, supports nothing and is just a US subsidy.

You might be able to buy a house in dublin for 100k in 4 years time, but most people will not be working and those that are will be getting 5k a year.

Lord Nikon

syklops wrote: »

I am inclined to agree with you. In the last 4 years or so I was in a position where I could buy a house, but to get a house similar in size and close enough to where I work, and also have monthly repayments of a similar amount to what I was paying in rent, would take me roughly 40 years to repay.

I didnt take the bait, and now am entering this recession in a very comfortable position. While my wages are staying the same, my rent has gone down, what I spend on food/clothes/travel has gone down, and when the house prices hit rock bottom I will be in a position to get a really nice house for a sensible price.

Sorry OP, but "I didnt know" is not a good enough reason to complain. In the 21st century when information has never been so easy to get a hold of, to say you didnt know that buying a house when prices were sky rocketing is not enough in my opinion.

Sorry.

...and you will continue to pay someone elses mortgage, and never have a place of your own, cause the banks are never gonna lend you money.

ntlbell

neuromancer wrote: »

...and you will continue to pay someone elses mortgage, and never have a place of your own, cause the banks are never gonna lend you money.

What sort of nonsense statement is this.

if the rent he's paying is cheaper than paying the interest on the mortgage for the same place how is it paying someone else's mortgage? and the house he might buy is dropping like a ton of bricks?

he's paying for a service receiving the service.

Every time you pay for a service somewhere a long the line you're paying someone else's mortgage it's a ridiculous statement to make

NTL - CABLE = dead money
ESB = dead money
eircom phone line = dead money
Internet service provider = dead money
paying for the cinema = deed money

just about every service you pay for is dead money

you get the service it's gone end of

stop talking utter nonsense.

Electric Sheep

neuromancer wrote: »

...and you will continue to pay someone elses mortgage, and never have a place of your own, cause the banks are never gonna lend you money.

That's the mindset that caused the property bubble. You and the whole country of Ireland really need to grow out of it.

CDfm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I think the general consensus would be that helping banks(as much as I personally disagree with it) is a way to help us all. As opposed to just helping people who bought a house during a boom.

Y'know, it always irked me when David McWilliams' show was on and everyone was giving out about him. He didn't know what he was talking about apparently. It's not like every single person was being positive about property investment. There were many dissenting voices. People chose not to listen. If I knew that buying was a bad idea, then I don't see how other people who were signing half their paycheck away for the next 40 years didn't know.
I would honestly consider myself a spendthrift, but I would seriously put more consideration into buying a roll in spar than some people put into buying a house.

I cant agree more but we need the banking system .

How many people who bought did so on the basis that houses would increase in value, like the OP they were speculators who borrowed money. They speculated with the homes they were living in.Its like going out and putting all your wages on a greyhound dog from Navan. Then you have to speculate to accumulate:rolleyes:

What about the Hobbit - Eddie Hobbs - truly a prophet who said that the civil service were being paid too much and we couldnt really afford them and that we were living beyond our means.

Eddie for President:D

mrgaa1

when you buy a car it normally decreases in value - not a lot of complaints about that. Any commodity that you buy can go up as well as down, pensions, shares, cars etc...
So really the banks need the help - personally I think the Irish Government needs replaced as they are not managing the problem in a way that gives confidence. At this time we need strong leaders, those who can stand in front of a camera etc... and talk the talk, sound good and are not afraid to make hard decisions but do them in a way that we all understand. At the moment Ireland is rudderless and leaderless - we need STRONG leadership who will lead. Also get rid of all the unions - they are not helping.

CDfm

mrgaa1 wrote: »

- personally I think the Irish Government needs replaced as they are not managing the problem in a way that gives confidence. At this time we need strong leaders, those who can stand in front of a camera etc... and talk the talk, sound good and are not afraid to make hard decisions but do them in a way that we all understand. At the moment Ireland is rudderless and leaderless - we need STRONG leadership who will lead. Also get rid of all the unions - they are not helping.

They also need strong and professional advisors and IMHO the Civil Service who are supposed to be able to provide the professional skills here are a vested interest and not an impartial group.

Strong leadership will mean tackling the civil service and the unions.

Would Fine Gael do it , would Labour do it, would the Greens do it?

How can it be done?

jackal

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout???? <etc>

Personally, as someone who could have bought into the property party, but didn't, if there is a bailout organised for the likes of you, I'm not hanging around to bloody pay for it with my taxes.

I love the way you managed to blame pretty much everyone except yourself there. This was probably the biggest purchase made thus far in your life, and you left it in the hands of others to make that decision for you? Take some responsibility.

As a general life tip, perhaps you should use your own judgment in future, and be particularly wary of advice given by those who are trying to sell you something and "advising you" at the same time.

AARRRGH

jackal wrote: »

As a general life tip, perhaps you should use your own judgment in future, and be particularly wary of advice given by those who are trying to sell you something and "advising you" at the same time.

I know a guy who bought a load of properties during the boom. Everyone thought he was a genius.

Then last year himself and a few others decided to buy some property in Romania. Lo and behold it turns out this particular genius based all his decision on what sales people told him. "He said the prices will double in five years", "it's guaraneed rent", etc.

Now, of course, he's screwed.

Moral of the story: sales people are full of ****!

The_Conductor

While I can recognise why many posters are displaying schadenfreude towards the OP- indeed I'd be hard-pressed to not do so myself, what I would argue is that we really should slaughter a few of our sacred cows.

The argument is that we need a stable financial system, and bailing out the banks, the developers etc is good for the economy for the lesser intelligent politicians might sound like sense, but for anyone with a modicum of grey matter between their ears- is infuriating in the extreme.

Personally I think that the bank guarantee and the subsequent bizarre actions by the government have been counter productive in the extreme. It costs us over 4% more to borrow money than it costs the Germans, and over 1.2% more than the next worst performer in the Eurozone (Greece). We are embarking on a borrowing spree nonetheless to fund these bailouts- it now seems we may be borrowing just over 26 billion in 2009- a figure which now seems to be in excess of 10% of our GDP.

Why couldn't Anglo Irish have been allowed go up the wall. Why couldn't BOI and AIB been forced to merge with stronger international institutions- Santander was definitely interested- but Lenihan said it wasn't in our national interest. Fianna Fail's national interest more like.......

We have gotten ourselves into an 'entitlement culture' where we can devolve ourselves of responsibility for our actions- safe in the knowledge that if the worse does come to pass- that a little bit of civil disobedience will have the government scrambling to cover its arse (aka the climbdown on the medical cards......)

Saving 2 billion in public sector pay in 2009 is a load of bollox. We need to save about 10 billion- and simultaneously raise another 6-7 billion in additional taxes. We don't have any leadership- nor do we have anyone willing to speak plainly to the people of Ireland about what we need to do. Even that thief Haughey had the balls to address the nation and spell out what needed to be done- we need someone willing to stand up to the challenge.......

As for the OP lamenting his lack of a bailout due to his poorly timed purchase- caveat emptor. In some areas we are already back at 2000-2001 prices (at which stage the IMF had pronounced our housing market overpriced by 20-25%).

There is a whole generation of people out there who were lied to by their elected representatives, the media, their financial consultants, their solicitors- literally every single institution that was supposedly acting in their interests. That generation of self-confident 20 and 30 somethings who grew up in the 90s- are going to be increasingly bitter- when they see their taxes paying for pensions that they know they will never have, the luxuries they have grown accustomed to- will be forgotten before long. What have this group of people to look forward to- nothing but backstabbing by the various interest groups who will be barracking the government to continue to pander to their whims- as they have done for years.

I can understand why the OP is pissed- hell, I'm pissed, and I bought years ago. Being pissed off isn't a solution to anything though- the biggest problem of all is that we quite simply don't have any manner of making our displeasure with solicitors/the media/the financial institutions/ politicians etc felt.

I saw an article about an unknown gentleman who pelted eggs at an AIB branch in Cork in the Examiner on Wednesday. Its probably the most productive thing that he could do- and while it achieves exactly nothing- perhaps he feels some element of self satisfaction for having done so. It would be nice to think that we could exercise some similar element of public shame on vested interests in this case. I'm not suggesting bringing back public floggings etc- though at times you do have to admire how they manage things in Singapore.........

oceanclub

geggles1 wrote: »

Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk.

Are you saying truthfully that you didn't read a single commentator or hear a single person who said that there might be a property crash? What forums did you read, for example, before you made your purchase?

You made a bad call, and now want those of us who didn't make a bad call to give you money. If you had made a good call, and property prices were going up, I'm sure you'd laugh if those of us who hadn't asked you for money.

P.

oceanclub

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Has anyone noticed how over the years whenever there were questions raised in the media about property being over priced, the big banks would wheel out their "chief economists" to RTE. These guys would then spout on about how all was well and that the doom and gloom merchants hadn't a clue. Unfortunately most people believed the bank's experts.

And it's up to an adult to realise that advice coming from someone who has a vested interest in you buying property is utterly worthless.

P.

oceanclub

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

Ah christ almighty would half of ye STFU. Talk about Shadenfraud gone mad. Some posters seem to be actually taking pleasure in rubbing peoples noses in their misfortune. Its your own fault, personal responsibility, I knew it was a bubble, I did not buy, I am great blah blah blah.

I have every sympathy with the OP up to the point where he assumed it was the duty of the rest of us to pay for his mistake.

P.

miju

AARRRGH wrote: »

Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

exactly. To be honest OP theres even a thread on this section of boards about the housing bubble bursting as far as back at the end of 2006.

If you chose not to educate / do research yourself and chose to listen to obvious vested interests whose job it is to blow smoke up your ass about how great a time it is to buy etc, etc before making the biggest purchase of your life then you have no one else to blame but yourself.

Eglinton

This is one of the funniest threads I've read in while. Thanks OP! You are the ultimate Celtic Tiger cub.

The whole thing reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIYB9sC_kZo

and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQ9A99pUQg