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Midlands International Airport: Good idea or not?

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    #92
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    veryangryman wrote: »
    What is your fascination with that Bog? You must have mentioned it 10 times by now. Do you think they're going to rename Dublin Airport to Ballymun Airport or something? Honestly, if you dont like the idea then nuts to you.

    I've mentioned it twice I believe. You want an airport opened in Horseleap. Is that not in the Bog of Allen?
    veryangryman wrote: »
    I'm very dissapointed with the lack of ambition displayed on this thread. If history has thought us anything, it is that some of the best development opportunities come from a recession.

    I'm very disappointed that the parochial mindset that you display is still such a potent force in Irish life.

    This is the mindset that forced the goverment to fund Knock Airport in the mid-1980s at a time when the country was broke. This is the mindset that continued to insist on the Shannon stopover to the detriment of the country. This is the mindset that refuses to acknowledge the fact that you cannot have the same facilities in areas with rural/small town populations that you have in large cities. This is the mindset that elects governments to look out for local interests instead of the interests of the country as a whole. This is the mindset that refuses to learn from our own history which should have taught us (although many have clearly not been taught) that wasting money on wasteful duplication of public services and infrastructure only holds this country back.

    The midlands is already connected to Dublin by four motorways. It is already connected to Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Ennis, Galway and Sligo by the main railway lines. By the end of next year it will be connected to Dublin Airport, Shannon Airport, Galway Airport and Cork Airport by motorways or high- quality dual carriageways.

    It has the best transport infrastructure of any rural/small town (and believe me, Athlone, Mullingar, Tullamore, Portlaoise etc are small towns) region in Ireland and yet you still want taxpayers from outside this region to fund an airport. And all because you don't want the 'inconvenience' of having to travel more than 50 miles to an international airport.

    Get real.

    If you think that this proposed airport is going to be such a success then put your money where your mouth is: take a financial stake in the company that wants to develop it.


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    #93
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    In principle the area east of the midlands would be ideal for an airport, because Dublin must be one of the largest European cities to only have one airport and no 2nd tier low cost out-of-city type alternative. There would also be plenty of potential passengers in the midlands area as well as those using it from the city, I know of people from as far away as North Tipp and Cavan that use Knock sometimes as a less hastle alternative to Dublin.

    However, in reality it is had to imagine such a development getting off the ground in such a highly populated area without encountering major local opposition - everyone wants an airport nearby, but nobody wants one right next door.

    People have a very over-blown notion of how big Dublin actually is. By international standards it's quite a small urban area. It is the 32nd largest urban area in the EU, after Marseille-Aix-En-Provence, Turin, Lyon and Stuttgart.

    Most cities that size do not have more than one Airport!

    It's not Paris (10.6 million people) or London (8.32 million people). Even cities that we tend to compare Dublin with like Barcelona has a population closer to the entire population of Ireland. Madrid's urban population is larger than Ireland at almost 5 million people.

    Take a look at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union for a bit of perspective :)


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    #94
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,574 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    [

    If you think that this proposed airport is going to be such a success then put your money where your mouth is: take a financial stake in the company that wants to develop it.

    That'll ermmm...be the tax money me and you spend. Weve already taken much dumber stakes in Anglo Irish due to Messers Cowen and Lenihan. At least this one has some chance of a return in my lifetime

    And yes, sometimes you have to gamble with a business idea. Nobody makes easy money starting new ventures up. You even gamble with a savings/pension fund - who's to say you will live to 65 per se? Knock was a huge gamble, funded in bad times and is now showing benefits for the region. Nobody knew that Ryanair were going to set up there back in 'day


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    #95
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    veryangryman wrote: »
    That'll ermmm...be the tax money me and you spend. Weve already taken much dumber stakes in Anglo Irish due to Messers Cowen and Lenihan. At least this one has some chance of a return in my lifetime

    And yes, sometimes you have to gamble with a business idea. Nobody makes easy money starting new ventures up. You even gamble with a savings/pension fund - who's to say you will live to 65 per se? Knock was a huge gamble, funded in bad times and is now showing benefits for the region. Nobody knew that Ryanair were going to set up there back in 'day

    As Schuhart has pointed out, the midlands counties get more in government funding than they pay in taxes. So it wouldn't be tax money coming from 'me and you'. It would be tax money coming from other parts of Ireland, excluding anyone who lives in midlands counties.

    And, as Schuhart has again pointed out, Knock attracts about 2% of air passengers and Mayo has about 2% of the population.

    If Knock was funded exculsively by Mayo taxpayers it might represent value for money to them, but it certainly doesn't represent value for money for taxpayers nationally.

    There are far more infrastructure projects that we could spend whatever billions it would cost to build an international airport in the midlands which is the most well-connected region of Ireland for its population profile.

    Face reality: all the largest towns in the midlands are an easy drive or train journey to Dublin. Mullingar, Athlone and Portlaoise all have dual carriageways and motorways connecting them directly to Dublin. Tullamore is only about 6 or 7 miles from the nearest motorway junction.

    All these towns have good train services to Dublin and to other towns and cities.

    Once the major inter-urban routes are complete by the end of 2010 (probably sooner in most cases) they'll be connected by motorway and dual carriageway to Cork, Shannon and Galway airports.

    The midlands is spoilt for choice when it comes to airports.


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    #96
    mumhaabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭mumhaabu


    Run a high speed maglev from Dublin to the Airport and you are sorted, if we had maglev trains Ireland could survive with one large mega airport with a full service terminal and a large cattleshed about three miles from the main terminal for Mick Leary & co. Close Dublin, Shannon, Kerry, Knock and Galway airports and build a motorway access. Make the airport less than 2hrs transport from anywhere on the Island.


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    #97
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Run a high speed maglev from Dublin to the Airport and you are sorted, if we had maglev trains Ireland could survive with one large mega airport with a full service terminal and a large cattleshed about three miles from the main terminal for Mick Leary & co. Close Dublin, Shannon, Kerry, Knock and Galway airports and build a motorway access. Make the airport less than 2hrs transport from anywhere on the Island.

    We should just give everyone rocket packs.


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    #98
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Everyone in the midlands especially around the Bog of Allen who begrudges it doesn't have it's international super Airport.

    Should be given free rocket packs, as a means of travelling around the world and not having to travel via car by over 50miles to airport. If your extra nice, I will give you free googles to give more comfort and better views while flying. The view over the bogs are amazing. Just WOW.


    The Rocket packs, would be designed for all modes of traffic, even long haul! Enjoy your flight. Remember they cost alot of money.

    :D:D


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    #99
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    mysterious wrote: »
    Remember they cost alot of money.

    :D:D

    That's hardly important. We might make money using them. ;):D


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    #100
    Gruffalo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    As a midlander, I think this is the most ridiculous idea I have heard in a while. We need to close some airports not open new ones. Along the west coast we could easily close:

    Donegal Airport - It only flies to Dublin and weekend flights to Glasgow, and it is as easy to get to Derry
    Sligo Airport - Only flies to Dublin and has a train line. Besides Knock is nearby
    Kerry Airport - Only flies to Dublin and has a train line. Kerry people have the choice of Cork or Shannon.

    Flying is a luxury and there is no excuse for subsidising people to fly across the country, as we are too small. Any airport which relies on these subsidies should be closed.

    With road and rail links improving the whole time the midlands is well served by Dublin, Shannon, Knock and Cork. There simply is no need for an airport in the midlands and it is highly unlikely that there ever will be.


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    #101
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,574 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    Donegal Airport - It only flies to Dublin and weekend flights to Glasgow, and it is as easy to get to Derry
    Sligo Airport - Only flies to Dublin and has a train line. Besides Knock is nearby
    Kerry Airport - Only flies to Dublin and has a train line. Kerry people have the choice of Cork or Shannon.

    Appreciate your point of view outside of what ive quoted, however these airports DO fly to other destinations. In the case of Kerry and Sligo, some quite significant ones

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donegal_Airport#Airlines_and_destinations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sligo_Airport

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Airport


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    #102
    Gruffalo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    veryangryman wrote: »
    Appreciate your point of view outside of what ive quoted, however these airports DO fly to other destinations. In the case of Kerry and Sligo, some quite significant ones

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donegal_Airport#Airlines_and_destinations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sligo_Airport

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Airport


    I obviously confused Kerry with somewhere else, my bad.

    Even the Sligo Wiki site, and the Sligo Airport site list Dublin as the only Destination.

    Donegal Airport site lists only the routes I have given. The others you see on the wiki page are charter services.

    So I still say close Donegal and Sligo. If Kerry can stand on its own two feet without the PSO's then let it be.


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    #103
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    mysterious wrote: »
    But the roads there are really bad.

    All the local roads spill onto the N7, and there is really bad connections in general.


    The Only way I see that going ahead
    1. If Metrowest was completed.
    2. The Naas Road widened to four lanes each way to Redcow including NWC junction.
    3. a distrubuter road built from Newlands to Newcastle and onto the Kill roads
    4. Auxullary lanes built for the Baldonnel/Citywest/local traffic grade separated from the heavy long distance traffic i.e N7
    Example of number 4 would be the Lyon A6 near the Paris suburbs.

    Would also have to be link to N4.

    Doesn't the existing rail line travel near enough to Baldonnel?


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    #104
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Solair wrote: »
    People have a very over-blown notion of how big Dublin actually is. By international standards it's quite a small urban area. It is the 32nd largest urban area in the EU, after Marseille-Aix-En-Provence, Turin, Lyon and Stuttgart.

    Most cities that size do not have more than one Airport!

    It's not Paris (10.6 million people) or London (8.32 million people). Even cities that we tend to compare Dublin with like Barcelona has a population closer to the entire population of Ireland. Madrid's urban population is larger than Ireland at almost 5 million people.

    Take a look at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union for a bit of perspective :)


    Very interesting and 32nd is high when you consider we are 74th in terms of metropolitan area size.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_European_metropolitan_areas


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    #105
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    This was all answered at the start.
    GerardKeating wrote: »
    If Dublin/Cork/Shannon airports and the motorway network did not exist, then the midlands would be the best place for a single large international airport to servce the country with the motorway network radiating out from it to Dubln/Cork/Limerick/Galway/Sligo/Dundalk/Kilkenny/Wexford etc.., but they do exist and wont go away any time soon.

    but if it does happen, it will be an even bigger white elephant than Knock...

    The time for a midlands airport is long gone.

    Unless you let the US military build it....:eek:


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    #106
    slx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭slx


    Godge wrote: »
    Very interesting and 32nd is high when you consider we are 74th in terms of metropolitan area size.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_European_metropolitan_areas

    The list I posted only looks at EU countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union

    The list you've posted is the entire continent of Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_European_metropolitan_areas

    So it includes many places beyond the borders of the EU which would push Dublin down to 74th place. Basically, it's a small fish in an even bigger pond!


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    #107
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    That is incredibly misleading.

    Most of the cities, include agglomeratios 15/20 miles out.
    If Dublin was to go by these standards.
    Then you could add much of the sprawl surrounding 15/20miles out.


    Dublin metropolitian area only takes in Dublin county.
    The sprawl now stretches into Meath to as far as Donboyne, Greystones in country Wicklow, MaynoothRathcoole county Kildare.

    Dublin metroplolitian area is about 1.5million. Dublin is small in Europeans standards, but it's population is hugely deflated on those charts.


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    #108
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    yah could use the canal to connect it to dublin, high speed barge anyone?


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    #109
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    This should have been built 50 years ago, with a motorway stretching east to west, and north to eventually branch out towards NW and NE and southwards to then branch out to Limerick, Cork and Waterford.


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    #110
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    So let me get this straightened out.


    If the midlanders get rocket packs. and we suffer at expense travelling 50 miles.

    Can we have some too? It's not fair. I think it's anooooover kill doing 50miles to the nearest airport, and all the midlanders fly direct from their homes in the near future to any destination they are set too.


    Pfffttt this life sucks:mad:


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    #111
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    mysterious wrote: »
    That is incredibly misleading.

    Most of the cities, include agglomeratios 15/20 miles out.
    If Dublin was to go by these standards.
    Then you could add much of the sprawl surrounding 15/20miles out.


    Dublin metropolitian area only takes in Dublin county.
    The sprawl now stretches into Meath to as far as Donboyne, Greystones in country Wicklow, MaynoothRathcoole county Kildare.

    Dublin metroplolitian area is about 1.5million. Dublin is small in Europeans standards, but it's population is hugely deflated on those charts.

    It doesn't really change anything, if you applied that methodology to any of the urban areas on the list you would inflate their size. E.g. you'd be giving Paris a population of close to 17 million + Same with London.

    It would even give Cork a population of well over 300,000.

    It defines a metropolitan area, not a metropolitan area + all the towns within 100km of it.

    There is no continuous urban development from Dublin to those areas. There's some ribbon development along the motorways and that's about it. They do not form part of the metropolitan Dublin area. They're just commuter belt towns that are economically linked to Dublin and a scattering of low density one-off houses along roads.

    The Dublin metropolitan area ends where the dense development ends. That's basically the edges of places like Tallaght, Blanchardstown etc. Once you go beyond that it's just ribbons along motorways, there is nothing between them. You can see it clearly if you fly over Dublin or even if you look at it on Google Maps.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dublin+ireland&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=37.188995,56.865234&ie=UTF8&ll=53.346452,-6.2677&spn=0.4386,0.888519&t=h&z=10

    There's actually very little to the North of the City.

    Bray and Greystones are only really an extension of coastal sprawl. There's no dense development to the south of the city other than a strip which is narrowly confined to the coast.


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    #112
    Alfasud
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭Alfasud


    Its a brilliant idea. So many people have such hassle going to Dublin. The road network is ideal. It should be done now during the recession just as the motorways should have been. :D


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    #113
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Incase you have forgotten, we don't live in an ideal world.


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    #114
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Wow, I can't believe I've only just seen this thread.

    Hmmm... to put it simply, and to prevent this thread from escalating once again into a repititive mess...

    Midlands airport? Good idea?

    No.

    End of story.


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    #115
    Alfasud
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭Alfasud


    Seems a typical opinion of those who think the world ends outside The Pale.


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    #116
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Well I'm sorry it has nothing to do with the eastern Ireland pale complex.

    It has to do with the fact, that its INANE to build an international Airport in a bog, with the nearest town Tullamore 15 miles and a population of 15,000 ffs.

    Air transport is falling in Dublin by 20 percent apparently. Ireland has to many Airports anyway. There is just no logical reason to build another airport. It's a waste of taxpayers money.


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    #117
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Alfasud wrote: »
    Seems a typical opinion of those who think the world ends outside The Pale.

    There's hardly anywhere in Leinster more than 2 hours from the airport, especially with new road projects coming on stream.
    Why waste much needed cash on yet another airport and that would only be the start...all those subsidies would have to be given as well.

    A total non runner in my opinion. I am in favour of opening Baldonnel to civilian flights as an alternative to Dublin.But as traffic is dropping with the reccession thats probably not even a runner right now.


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    #118
    Gruffalo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    mysterious wrote: »

    It has to do with the fact, that its INANE to build an international Airport in a bog, with the nearest town Tullamore 15 miles and a population of 15,000 ffs.

    While you are right that it is a ridiculous idea, you could do with learning your geography of Ireland. It is not in the middle of a bog and Tullamore is not the nearest town.

    Other than that you are bang on. It is stupid, stupid, stupid. And I am from nearby. From where they suggest to put that airport, you could be in Dublin, Knock or Shannon Airports in 2 hours (Dublin well inside 2 hours).


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    #119
    Alfasud
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭Alfasud


    :p
    mysterious wrote: »
    It's not opinion, it's fact.
    There is no need for or neccessity to have another international Airport.
    Cork and Shannon, still have extra capacity. Dublin aiport T2 is coming onstream. Knock Airport is only carrying 2% of international traiffic of this country.

    There is no NEED for another international Airport. Nobody is to far from an internatioanl airport.

    This is a small country. Dublin/Shannon/Cork/Knock is enough.




    So why would we need another international airport, for the "craic"


    That is your only argument, its for the craic and the benifet of people like you who begrudge travelling to an airport that is 50miles away.

    Good god. do you actually realise, this is utter delusion.


    An Airport 50 or 70miles away is the norm.

    It is actually a luxurious to have an airport in 50miles in a rurul area.

    Tullamore doesn't have the demand for an international airport.



    So yeah lets have every town 50miles from an international airport.:rolleyes:

    This is like, every rural town needs a limo service, because the next town has it.

    The problem, is that there isn't a demand for another international airport in this country. The midlands is about an hour ro Dublin airport. Seriously would you get real. With two motorways from the Midlands direct Dublin. Your not far from an Airport.

    Seriously you have a car use it. international airports are not on a local needs list, get used to it.

    Your going to have to acccep this. if you want an intenational airport for white elephant baloney. Then you raise the funds.
    Dont worry. Its private investors that will be paying for it----not the taxpayer


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    #120
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Alfasud wrote: »
    :p
    Dont worry. Its private investors that will be paying for it----not the taxpayer

    So was Knock. But guess who ends up paying for the PSO on the routes.


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    #121
    Gruffalo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    mfitzy wrote: »
    So was Knock. But guess who ends up paying for the PSO on the routes.

    The EU would not allow you to fly from the Midlands to anywhere on in the country as you can get to all the major cities in about 2 hours. They have some directive along those lines anyway.

    Dont worry about PSO's. This thing will never happen.


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