Anglo told Regulators about share deal

nesf

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5734201.ece

A secret transaction engineered by Anglo Irish Bank to prevent its stock falling was given tacit approval by the financial services authorities

Or so says the Sunday Times. Apparently, the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator were aware of and tacitly approved the secret share transaction that happened outside of the stock market involving a 10% stake in the company. The Department of Finance also knew something of this but seem to be claiming that they were unaware of the details.


This raises extremely serious questions about the oversight of our stock market and if true will hugely undermine national and international confidence in our system. This kind of behaviour will ruin the credibility of our institutions at a time when we need them at their strongest.

Sand

You know, for guys who apparently arent to blame for the crisis, the banks, the regulator and the government seem to be at the root of undermining confidence in our entire economy and the management of it.

galwayrush

And yet, the financial regulator was awarded a massive golden handshake and an amazing pension for basically ****ing up big time. Surely this is enough to make any contract on his appointment for such amazing benifits null and void?
Why are the fraud squad not involved at this stage?
Would they have to get involved if a member of the public made a complaint?

Dob74

I can see now why the banks share price continued to fall even after the bank gaurantee. Everyone one in the finanical community most have known that Anglo's books where cooked.
It will be interesting to see if AIB & BOI have been up to the same things. Looking at thier share price it looks very likely. Why should banks making over a billion on there books need a 7 billion euro bail out. Unless??????????

Dannyboy83

This just keeps getting worse and worse unfortunately.

I honestly believe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg thus far.
Its gradually becoming apparent why Brian Cowen never came forward in an expected show of Leadership.
He chose to remain silent in order to prevent any futher loss of confidence and an attempt to keep all this on the QT.

Nesf, how was this disclosed to the public/media?
Was it leaked or revealed by government?

I would love to know exactly what the government were and were not aware of pre-nationalisation.
It

I saw a report concerning Ireland on Bloomberg yesterday.
It was just a non-stop parade of the fraud that is being exposed to anyone here.
From what I understand, no one is willing to invest money here anymore, although it wouldn't take a genius to figure that out given the bank shares.

Does anyone know what our credit rating status is now at?
Is it still Triple A?

Mr.Micro

The system was to protected at all costs, collusion inadvertently or otherwise between the Regulator, the Cental Bank, ILP, Anglo and the Dept of Finance. So serious breaches and unacceptable loans etc were tolerated so as to keep the Golden Goose going. Its the tip of the iceberg IMO. Perhaps we are seeing why Anglo was saved now? Lenihan should go.

mike65

The business and chatfests tomorrow morning on radio should be worth listening to.

Sand

Does anyone know what our credit rating status is now at?
Is it still Triple A?

The AAA rated countries have been split into three categories - Germany is in the highest, UK and US in the middle one and Ireland is in the "negative" category. Strictly speaking Ireland is still AAA but its on the bottom rung and with the stream of stories coming out of Ireland highlighting the corruption and mismanagement and deliberate falsifying of financial records...the AAA rating is effectively gone.

Dannyboy83

Sand wrote: »

The AAA rated countries have been split into three categories - Germany is in the highest, UK and US in the middle one and Ireland is in the "negative" category. Strictly speaking Ireland is still AAA but its on the bottom rung and with the stream of stories coming out of Ireland highlighting the corruption and mismanagement and deliberate falsifying of financial records...the AAA rating is effectively gone.

Not as bad as I thought then:rolleyes:

Cheers mate

Mr.Micro

As of 30 Jan 2009 our rating was Aaa.



www.ntma.ie/Publications/2009/moodys_rating_jan30.pdf

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Nesf, how was this disclosed to the public/media?
Was it leaked or revealed by government?

I only know what's in the Sunday Times article, no more.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

A secret transaction engineered by Anglo Irish Bank to prevent its stock falling was given tacit approval by the financial services authorities I would love to know exactly what the government were and were not aware of pre-nationalisation.

A lot of people would but the problem is untangling what the different branches of the Government knew and then what they knew about what each other knew. It's entirely possible (depressingly so) that the Regulator could be off doing stuff that the Dept. of Finance was only tangentially aware of. Never mind what the Dept. of Finance had told Lenihan. The idea that Lenihan is aware of everything the Regulator, Central Bank and Dept. of Finance is up to is a fallacy I'm afraid.

Pride Fighter

This is huge news, expect the ISEQ to fall by at least 10% on Monday.

deadhead13

I think this story has a long way to run yet and expect more heads to roll. All depends on whether there is a paper trail. It would be extremely stupid of them if there was - but then again......

Pal

Answer me this. Anybody. Please.

Why did Permo get involved in cooking Anglo's books ?

Why did they do it ?

pdb123

Lenihan should go

I get the feeling what i am going to say wont be popular, but I think Lenihan is doing a good job on what he has been giving to work with..

*runs away*

jmayo

nesf wrote: »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5734201.ece

Or so says the Sunday Times. Apparently, the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator were aware of and tacitly approved the secret share transaction that happened outside of the stock market involving a 10% stake in the company. The Department of Finance also knew something of this but seem to be claiming that they were unaware of the details.

This raises extremely serious questions about the oversight of our stock market and if true will hugely undermine national and international confidence in our system. This kind of behaviour will ruin the credibility of our institutions at a time when we need them at their strongest.

Our stock market regulation is a joke anyway before this.
Remember the Fyffes insider share dealing debacle.

Things are very cushy in Irish business circles and it is one big cirle jerk.
Nobody wants to rock the boat as everyone is on everyone elses board.
Do a board check and you keep finding familiar names cropping up.
There is even a cross over between private and public, with public bodies such as Aer Lingus (I know they are now private), DDDA, ESB being filled by cronies of the government.

I seem to remember Shane Ross (I think ???) complaining at Smurfit AGM a few years ago about dividends and share prices. He alluded to fact that major shareholders (i.e. the banks) were well represented on the board but did nothing for the smaller shareholders.

Now it appears there was complicity between two banks, Financial Regulators Office, Central Bank and Dept of Finance in affectively cooking the books, to all intense and purposes, and distorting the true financial standing of a financial institution.
Why the hell would any investor now touch an Irish financial company ?

Why should anyone put money into an Irish pension fund that will invaribly be invested in dear ould Irish companies run by a bunch of chancers and monitored by their buddies ?

Could an insurance fund take an action against some of the above parties for losses in Anglo ?

PS Of course I await stepbar's withering wit to counter the fact that to everyone bar bankers, these guys were cookling the books with their "lend us a deposit for a few days" scheme or "we give you money to buy our shares" scheme.
Of course they may have done nothing illegal in Ireland :rolleyes:

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

A lot of people would but the problem is untangling what the different branches of the Government knew and then what they knew about what each other knew. It's entirely possible (depressingly so) that the Regulator could be off doing stuff that the Dept. of Finance was only tangentially aware of. Never mind what the Dept. of Finance had told Lenihan. The idea that Lenihan is aware of everything the Regulator, Central Bank and Dept. of Finance is up to is a fallacy I'm afraid.

Do you think we should show them what a wiki is mate?;)

We could revolutionise the Dept.:rolleyes:

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you think we should show them what a wiki is mate?;)

We could revolutionise the Dept.:rolleyes:

A wiki wouldn't work. The reasons should be obvious.

asdasd

the feeling what i am going to say wont be popular, but I think Lenihan is doing a good job on what he has been giving to work with..

didnt he find FitzPatrick's loan, something which was not obvious to the regulators, or the private auditors, even though this is not his field.

Lenihan may be not up to this daunting task but he is not corrupt, I think.

we need to triple the size of the Fraud Squad and get them to do their job.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

A wiki wouldn't work. The reasons should be obvious.

Enlighten me please bro.

BTW, if you're talking about one group of langers deleting info, thats the advantage of an iterated wiki, plus you could just give read permissions to most people.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Enlighten me please bro.

BTW, if you're talking about one group of langers deleting info, thats the advantage of an iterated wiki, plus you could just give read permissions to most people.

The problems would come from when none of the three groups have access to all the information and are all editing the wiki simultaneously. Whose edits do you give the most credence to? From which combinations do you extrapolate further information from? There's also the problem of what do you share and what don't you, since large amounts of the business in each separate department is of no interest or use to the others but it's difficult to say a priori which is which.

stepbar

jmayo wrote: »

Our stock market regulation is a joke anyway before this.
Remember the Fyffes insider share dealing debacle.

Things are very cushy in Irish business circles and it is one big cirle jerk.
Nobody wants to rock the boat as everyone is on everyone elses board.
Do a board check and you keep finding familiar names cropping up.
There is even a cross over between private and public, with public bodies such as Aer Lingus (I know they are now private), DDDA, ESB being filled by cronies of the government.

I seem to remember Shane Ross (I think ???) complaining at Smurfit AGM a few years ago about dividends and share prices. He alluded to fact that major shareholders (i.e. the banks) were well represented on the board but did nothing for the smaller shareholders.

Now it appears there was complicity between two banks, Financial Regulators Office, Central Bank and Dept of Finance in affectively cooking the books, to all intense and purposes, and distorting the true financial standing of a financial institution.
Why the hell would any investor now touch an Irish financial company ?

Why should anyone put money into an Irish pension fund that will invaribly be invested in dear ould Irish companies run by a bunch of chancers and monitored by their buddies ?

Could an insurance fund take an action against some of the above parties for losses in Anglo ?

PS Of course I await stepbar's withering wit to counter the fact that to everyone bar bankers, these guys were cookling the books with their "lend us a deposit for a few days" scheme or "we give you money to buy our shares" scheme.
Of course they may have done nothing illegal in Ireland :rolleyes:

Nice rant there. When are you taking to the streets? Many joining you?.....

ejmaztec

I've been involved with many company audits over the years, and each firm of auditors has been worried to death should some official from a regulatory body examine the audit files and find something wrong.

The auditors would religiously check the files to make absolutely certain that a 100% job was done - and that they hadn't been hoodwinked by anyone.

It now seems after recent events that they needn't have bothered.

jmayo

ejmaztec wrote: »

I've been involved with many company audits over the years, and each firm of auditors has been worried to death should some official from a regulatory body examine the audit files and find something wrong.

The auditors would religiously check the files to make absolutely certain that a 100% job was done - and that they hadn't been hoodwinked by anyone.

It now seems after recent events that they needn't have bothered.

Oh no those rules would be enforced in most instances.
But there are certain protocols in Ireland which dictate who are subject to rules and regulations.
If you reach a certain status, it appears you are immune from such mundane things as rules and regulations.

Banks and bankers would have you believe that there are no loopholes and what they did was not wrong or illegal.
Funny how most independent financial analysts in this country and probably all those round the world would have different views.
But if we dare get angry at these people we are accused of ranting.

asdasd

Nice rant there. When are you taking to the streets? Many joining you?.....

Who needs the streets, not the irish way. any party that mentions an increase in resources for the fraud squad will get my vote.

stepbar

jmayo wrote: »

Oh no those rules would be enforced in most instances.
But there are certain protocols in Ireland which dictate who are subject to rules and regulations.
If you reach a certain status, it appears you are immune from such mundane things as rules and regulations.

Banks and bankers would have you believe that there are no loopholes and what they did was not wrong or illegal.
Funny how most independent financial analysts in this country and probably all those round the world would have different views.
But if we dare get angry at these people we are accused of ranting.

That's all you're doing buddy. Ranting.

Now go ahead and name one law for me like a good little boy.

Who needs the streets, not the irish way. any party that mentions an increase in resources for the fraud squad will get my vote.

LOL at the notion of the fraud squad. Just LOL.

asdasd

LOL at the notion of the fraud squad. Just LOL.

Laugh all the way to jail mate. This country is corrupt, but the tide is turning. Seriously. Lots of people are going to jail.

LOL at the self serving bankers still defending the indefensible.

SkepticOne

Relax, low level staff will probably escape scrutiny.

mike65

No one is going to jail unless the Youghart that passes for an enforcement culture in this country has changed overnight.

asdasd

Now go ahead and name one law for me like a good little boy.

There are no laws against deceiving shareholders? Who'd thunk it.

In any case we can bend existing laws, like criminal negligence. Doctors can be jailed for negligence, even if tired, even if there was no intent to kill or injure. An engineer can be jailed if a bridge collapses. Where there is intent to defraud, and/or negligence which brings down an entire financial system the case is easily made.

stepbar

asdasd wrote: »

Laugh all the way to jail mate. This country is corrupt, but the tide is turning. Seriously. Lots of people are going to jail.

LOL at the self serving bankers still defending the indefensible.

Sorry still laughing. Laughing Very Hard.