Anglo told Regulators about share deal

asdasd

No one is going to jail unless the Youghart that passes for an enforcement culture in this country has changed overnight.

Let me put it this way: my 62 year old mother, a Fianna Fail supporter all her life wants these muppets jailed and Fianna Fail out of office.

Just one party has to mention jail time, that we must increase resources to the police to investigate this white collar crime and it will shoot up 10%+ in the polls. The others will ahve to act tougher.

The next government will jail bankers.

asdasd

Sorry still laughing. Laughing Very Hard.

You can laugh at your buddies going to jail in a few years. Until then, I suggest just smirking a bit.

By the way doesnt the existance of Stepbar et al. put the lie to the "not all bankers were in it" nonsense. Banking seemed to attract a certain type.

holly1

stepbar wrote: »

Sorry still laughing. Laughing Very Hard.

Your day will come:p

stepbar

asdasd wrote: »

There are no laws against deceiving shareholders? Who'd thunk it.

In any case we can bend existing laws, like criminal negligence. Doctors can be jailed for negligence, even if tired, even if there was no intent to kill or injure. An engineer can be jailed if a bridge collapses. Where there is intent to defraud, and/or negligence which brings down an entire financial system the case is easily made.

O so now there was an intent to defraud, eh? Sure :rolleyes:

asdasd

O so now there was an intent to defraud, eh? Sure

Do read the thread title, or about FitzPatrick's dealings. In any criminal negligence wouldnt need intent.

Nodin

asdasd wrote: »

Laugh all the way to jail mate. This country is corrupt, but the tide is turning. Seriously. Lots of people are going to jail.

I'd like you to be right. However I gravely doubt that you are. 'Quality' people rarely do time. Thats not a conspiracy theory, just a fact.

Out of all the tribunals, and related revelations, for instance, how many did jail time?

stepbar

asdasd wrote: »

You can laugh at your buddies going to jail in a few years. Until then, I suggest just smirking a bit.

By the way doesnt the existance of Stepbar et al. put the lie to the "not all bankers were in it" nonsense. Banking seemed to attract a certain type.

Christ you love the generalisations, still talk lots yet say sfa. None of ye can tell me what exactly are "the bankers" going to be sent to jail for. Jeez I must have asked that question a hundred times and I still haven't got an answer or even close to an answer.

nesf

Lads there's far too much heat and not enough light in this thread. Quit sniping at each other please.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

The problems would come from when none of the three groups have access to all the information and are all editing the wiki simultaneously. Whose edits do you give the most credence to? From which combinations do you extrapolate further information from? There's also the problem of what do you share and what don't you, since large amounts of the business in each separate department is of no interest or use to the others but it's difficult to say a priori which is which.

All of those issues are very, very easily resolved.
Simple in fact.

For relevance, use pre-assigned permissions.
I could do this in 7 days.

Edits - you don't need to give credence or priority to anything.
This is what an iterative wiki is for mate.
Not sure if you have ever used Confluence, but you easily review any and all changes.

For all editing at the same thing - How do you think software developers work on projects mate?:rolleyes:
There are many ways around this.
Subversion almagamated into a central repository for one.

Dannyboy83

stepbar wrote: »

O so now there was an intent to defraud, eh? Sure :rolleyes:

Erm.................yes, LOL.
Do you keep up with current events at all mate?

Besides, it doesn't matter how it does or does not look to you.
You're 1 person.
To the international community and the people who invest their money here, it looks like collusion and fraud.

In the last 4 days: BBC, Bloomberg, Russia Today, CNN Internation, AlJazeera International, France 24

Unless we get some heads on sticks and get some type of regulation and quickly, we will be no regarded as no different than Venezula or Nicaragua or whatever.

I'm not saying its going to happen.
I'm not saying the people who deserve to be prosecuted will be.
I'm just saying they should be.

“Only little people pay taxes.” – Leona Helmsly

Dannyboy83

stepbar wrote: »

Christ you love the generalisations, still talk lots yet say sfa. None of ye can tell me what exactly are "the bankers" going to be sent to jail for. Jeez I must have asked that question a hundred times and I still haven't got an answer or even close to an answer.

Simple.

• Serious misconduct and Fraud
• Tax evasion
• Accounting Fruad
• Corporate Abuse
• Insider Trading (not saying who as I don't want to be up in court myself
• Unfair dismissal (there are probably a few more whistleblowers like this RBS chap)

Don't assume it stops at the top:
"Kevin P Hannon, 46, former chief operating officer for the broadband unit, pleaded guilty to conspiracy in August 2004 for scheming with other executives to exaggerate Enron's broadband network capabilities to impress analysts and inflate company stock."

Potential for serious action in the financial departments/Financial Regulator over collusion


If the Anglo shareholders sue the government (and rightly so), there will be a lot of angry taxpayers.
Perhaps then we will finally see some justice.

Dannyboy83

Nodin wrote: »

I'd like you to be right. However I gravely doubt that you are. 'Quality' people rarely do time. Thats not a conspiracy theory, just a fact.

Out of all the tribunals, and related revelations, for instance, how many did jail time?

Good point and one of my pet hates.
We have big expensive tribunals and fail to regulate/legislate against anything.

The thing is though, the likes of Bertie in Mahon -ethical grounds, and Charlie - pocket money [expenditure abuses are commonplace among government ministers nowadays as we saw with Willie O Dea spending 164,000 to go to Texas or Fas/Florida etc.].

Anglo Irish however - country on its knees, colossal public debt, whole system broken, seriously overleveraged, lies, collusion, corruption, Ireland going from 5th richest country to financial basket case of Europe and laughing stock of financial world.

Its like comparing a capgun and a nuclear bomb.

The world is waiting for action.
Ireland has to deliver.
It'll probably be some poor bas@rd from middle management when the scumbags on top buy their freedom.

asdasd

The thing is though, the likes of Bertie in Mahon

Someone gave Bertie a house. Not the same league as bankrupting the economy. When the tribunal gets off the gravy trains and produces a indictment it can go to the DPP for processing. Obviously the tribunals are a total waste of money, and the last thing we need is for more of that gravy train investigating the recent fraud.

Let the police look into it at least. We have a fraud squad. In fact close down the tribunals and let the police lose on the politicans with the existing evidence.

Dannyboy83

asdasd wrote: »

Someone gave Bertie a house. Not the same league as bankrupting the economy. When the tribunal gets off the gravy trains and produces a indictment it can go to the DPP for processing. Obviously the tribunals are a total waste of money, and the last thing we need is for more of that gravy train investigating the recent fraud.

Let the police look into it at least. We have a fraud squad. In fact close down the tribunals and let the police lose on the politicans with the existing evidence.

If you read the rest of my post, that was precisely my point.
Hence the cap gun/nuclear bomb analogy.

The tribunals haven't been a total waste of time, they've gotten back some amount of cash, disgraced a few knackers and made some legal bods exceedingly rich, both senior and junior.

The thing is, this is a criminal case, and needs criminal investigation.
Will it happen?
I hope so.
But I wouldn't hold my breath.

asdasd

stepbar wrote: »

Christ you love the generalisations, still talk lots yet say sfa. None of ye can tell me what exactly are "the bankers" going to be sent to jail for. Jeez I must have asked that question a hundred times and I still haven't got an answer or even close to an answer.

I gave the answers. Fraud. Negligence. And whatever else we can throw the book at them for. The junk bond traders in New York were not technically guilty of junk bond trading, Milkin et al., since it was not illegal. But they were jailed anyway.

All we need is RICO. Racketeering can be defined as you want it.

gnxx

In absolute and total agreement with this.

We have seen too many dodgy deals ranging from brown envelopes, inappropriate expense claims, directors loans and fraud.

Increase the headcount at CAB by 100% and investigate every single allegation made in the last 24 months. Jail and assert seizure to follow.

Personally I'd privatise CAB :-) Offer shares on the stock exchange !!

asdasd wrote: »

Someone gave Bertie a house. Not the same league as bankrupting the economy. When the tribunal gets off the gravy trains and produces a indictment it can go to the DPP for processing. Obviously the tribunals are a total waste of money, and the last thing we need is for more of that gravy train investigating the recent fraud.

Let the police look into it at least. We have a fraud squad. In fact close down the tribunals and let the police lose on the politicans with the existing evidence.

Dannyboy83

gnxx wrote: »

In absolute and total agreement with this.

We have seen too many dodgy deals ranging from brown envelopes, inappropriate expense claims, directors loans and fraud.

Increase the headcount at CAB by 100% and investigate every single allegation made in the last 24 months. Jail and assert seizure to follow.

Personally I'd privatise CAB :-) Offer shares on the stock exchange !!

The problem is that, with the likes of FitzPatrick, what he did was ethically wrong, but not criminally wrong (in this country, so far as I'm aware).

Sad state of affairs really.:(


The other shower are applicable for the CAB treatment tho.

Pub07

asdasd wrote: »

In any case we can bend existing laws, like criminal negligence. Doctors can be jailed for negligence, even if tired, even if there was no intent to kill or injure. An engineer can be jailed if a bridge collapses. Where there is intent to defraud, and/or negligence which brings down an entire financial system the case is easily made.

Yeah except this is not China where individual employees of organisations can be punished. No doctor or engineer in this country ever was or ever will be jailed for criminal negligence no matter how terrible their crime, example: Dr. Michael Neary. I dont see any of these current crowd of bankers getting charged much less getting some jail time. If this was the United States they would've been led out of their workplaces in the middle of the day with handcuffs on by now. HOW HAS THEIR NOT BEEN A F*CKING GARDA RAID ON THESE BANKS YET? Do they want to give them time to cover it all up or what?

Dannyboy83

Pub07 wrote: »

Yeah except this is not China where individual employees of organisations can be punished. No doctor or engineer in this country ever was or ever will be jailed for criminal negligence no matter how terrible their crime, example: Dr. Michael Neary. I dont see any of these current crowd of bankers getting charged much less getting some jail time. If this was the United States they would've been led out of their workplaces in the middle of the day with handcuffs on by now. HOW HAS THEIR NOT BEEN A F*CKING GARDA RAID ON THESE BANKS YET? Do they want to give them time to cover it all up or what?

Thats not actually correct, there have been a few cases.
Granted, its not the norm.
But not correct.
Off the top of my head, I don't recall the cases unfortunately.

I sympathise with your anger about the delay in investigation/prosecution.

I believe the answer to this is that there is much more destructive stuff still being hidden.
I can't really think of any other answer.

Pub07

You are saying a doctor/engineer has done time in Ireland for criminal neglegience? I cant recall one person getting jail time from the myriad of health scandals we've had in Ireland over the years.

mike65

Doesn't happen often - here's rare example http://www.meathchronicle.ie/articles/1/23800 and its not due to negligence so slightly OT.

Dannyboy83

Pub07 wrote: »

You are saying a doctor/engineer has done time in Ireland for criminal neglegience? I cant recall one person getting jail time from the myriad of health scandals we've had in Ireland over the years.

Ah, no, you've got me there.
I thought you were referring to financial institutions etc.



In fact, there is a famous doctor in Dublin who diagnoses every child who sees him as Hyperative/ADD.
Its known industry wide as my cousins (nurses) were telling me about him, and then about a year later, my boss told me that his son had been diagnosed by the same fella.

Nothing seems to be done about him! Beats me!


(Wasn't there one recently about a doctor prescribing medication to patients and then sending them out to the car park where her son (a pharmacist from a different county) was selling them drugs from the boot of his car and putting 2 & 3 months supply through letterboxes etc.)

LOL, Who said the wild west was dead, Welcome to Ireland cowboy:D

asdasd

The problem is that, with the likes of FitzPatrick, what he did was ethically wrong, but not criminally wrong (in this country, so far as I'm aware).

Not criminally wrong? He hid a personal loan from shareholders, and the Board. How in Gods name can that not be attempt to defraud.

Look, here is the thing. A PM getting a house back when he was Minister of Finance does not really sully our repetation around the world, and most countries either have similar issues with housing ( In the UK, Jacqui Smith recently) or give politicans of that magnitude free housing anyway. It really sent no ripples around the world.

There were foreign shareholders in Anglo. Are we really saying that Irish corporate law does not countenance that as fraud? Really? Are we actually trying to end all investment in any Irish company for ever?

Dannyboy83

asdasd wrote: »

Not criminally wrong? He hid a personal loan from shareholders, and the Board. How in Gods name can that not be attempt to defraud.

Look, here is the thing. A PM getting a house back when he was Minister of Finance does not really sully our repetation around the world, and most countries either have similar issues with housing ( In the UK, Jacqui Smith recently) or give politicans of that magnitude free housing anyway. It really sent no ripples around the world.

There were foreign shareholders in Anglo. Are we really saying that Irish corporate law does not countenance that as fraud? Really? Are we actually trying to end all investment in any Irish company for ever?

Apparently so mate, hard to believe, but apparently its not fraud.
In this country anyway.

I agree with all your other points.

stepbar

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Erm.................yes, LOL.
Do you keep up with current events at all mate?

Besides, it doesn't matter how it does or does not look to you.
You're 1 person.
To the international community and the people who invest their money here, it looks like collusion and fraud.

In the last 4 days: BBC, Bloomberg, Russia Today, CNN Internation, AlJazeera International, France 24

Unless we get some heads on sticks and get some type of regulation and quickly, we will be no regarded as no different than Venezula or Nicaragua or whatever.

I'm not saying its going to happen.
I'm not saying the people who deserve to be prosecuted will be.
I'm just saying they should be.

“Only little people pay taxes.” – Leona Helmsly

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Simple.

• Serious misconduct and Fraud
• Tax evasion
• Accounting Fruad
• Corporate Abuse
• Insider Trading (not saying who as I don't want to be up in court myself
• Unfair dismissal (there are probably a few more whistleblowers like this RBS chap)

Don't assume it stops at the top:
"Kevin P Hannon, 46, former chief operating officer for the broadband unit, pleaded guilty to conspiracy in August 2004 for scheming with other executives to exaggerate Enron's broadband network capabilities to impress analysts and inflate company stock."

Potential for serious action in the financial departments/Financial Regulator over collusion


If the Anglo shareholders sue the government (and rightly so), there will be a lot of angry taxpayers.
Perhaps then we will finally see some justice.

asdasd wrote: »

Not criminally wrong? He hid a personal loan from shareholders, and the Board. How in Gods name can that not be attempt to defraud.

Look, here is the thing. A PM getting a house back when he was Minister of Finance does not really sully our repetation around the world, and most countries either have similar issues with housing ( In the UK, Jacqui Smith recently) or give politicans of that magnitude free housing anyway. It really sent no ripples around the world.

There were foreign shareholders in Anglo. Are we really saying that Irish corporate law does not countenance that as fraud? Really? Are we actually trying to end all investment in any Irish company for ever?

asdasd wrote: »

I gave the answers. Fraud. Negligence. And whatever else we can throw the book at them for. The junk bond traders in New York were not technically guilty of junk bond trading, Milkin et al., since it was not illegal. But they were jailed anyway.

All we need is RICO. Racketeering can be defined as you want it.

So far we have big words like

Fraud, Collusion, Negligence, Racketeering and Tax Evasion ( I especially love the last two LOL). This is hilarious. Tax fcuking evasion and Racketeering FFS :rolleyes:
Big words indeed boys.

I don't see any Laws there boys...... Care to quote any? Mind you I don't see much of anything TBH but shur don't let that get in the way of some form of truth.

Youse seem to be fully intent on absolving people (as in the borrowers) of any blame in all this.

I'm starting to very seriously believe the Indymedia lads have sent a few of yiz over to stir sh1te. Some of the stuff wrote in this thread is absolutely mindblowing :rolleyes:

Dob74

stepbar wrote: »

So far we have big words like

Fraud, Collusion, Negligence, Racketeering and Tax Evasion ( I especially love the last two LOL). This is hilarious. Tax fcuking evasion and Racketeering FFS :rolleyes:
Big words indeed boys.

I don't see any Laws there boys...... Care to quote any? Mind you I don't see much of anything TBH but shur don't let that get in the way of some form of truth.

Youse seem to be fully intent on absolving people (as in the borrowers) of any blame in all this.

I'm starting to very seriously believe the Indymedia lads have sent a few of yiz over to stir sh1te. Some of the stuff wrote in this thread is absolutely mindblowing :rolleyes:

Please stop defending the indefensible.

Corporate Criminal Offences:

Section 297A(1)(B) of the Companies Act 1963
"any person Knowingly"..............for any fraudulent purpose" the court may impose personal liability for some or all of the company's debts on that person.

Section 297(1)(a) of the companies act 1963
On reckless trading

Section 297(6)

The list is endless, on what they can charge your heroes with.

I know Anglo issued a statment before christmas saying they did nothing illegal. That is about believable as the tooth fairy

nesf

Ok, enough of this. People are not in a position to determine whether or not any laws were broken without having all the facts to hand. Rant all you want but do not start accusing people of specific crime. If you want to do such, start a blog.