Anyone interested in putting together a 'political party'???

markesmith

A party that puts the welfare of the individual at its heart would do well, with the right kind of orator that gets the point across. I mean I don't even know who Labour's leader is these days.

I think a party that is essentially leftist (better & cheaper health & education), with ecological overtones, and a slightly right-of-centre approach to immigration and crime, would do well in Ireland. Note how I said "slightly right-of-centre". As in realistic.

Flame me!

af_thefragile

markesmith wrote: »

A party that puts the welfare of the individual at its heart would do well, with the right kind of orator that gets the point across. I mean I don't even know who Labour's leader is these days.

I think a party that is essentially leftist (better & cheaper health & education), with ecological overtones, and a slightly right-of-centre approach to immigration and crime, would do well in Ireland. Note how I said "slightly right-of-centre". As in realistic.

Flame me!

You kinda there managed to fuse the worst aspects of both the left and right ideologies!!
Hitler and Stalin would be proud!

markesmith

af_thefragile wrote: »

You kinda there managed to fuse the worst aspects of both the left and right ideologies!!
Hitler and Stalin would be proud!

Absolutely ridiculous, af_thefragile. Would you prefer I included state-sponsored terror, forced labour of political dissidents, ethnic cleansing to "improve" the genetic stock, and an ideal of living space for our people in Wales?

The reason a good orator is required is that Irish people respond to this. Good speaking skills does not necessarily translate to Hitler. The welfare of the individual should be a given in politics.

A slightly right-of-centre approach to crime and immigration - how do you see totalitarianism in that? In my town, a guy has just been fined €250 for threatening three Gardai with a knife - I'm sure that fine will ensure he does not re-offend. And I'm not talking about locking him up for life, but a realistic approach is required.

And unfettered immigration is a problem, leading to hardened right attitudes among the working classes. You can't call me a racist for this opinion, just look at the increasing numbers on Stormfront, and the way that posts on boards.ie are going. I don't need to tell you that I'm not racist, but it feels like I need to respond pre-emptively in any debate on immigration. It's an easy but tired rebuke that stops any kind of sensible debate from taking place, and is the reason that our Government has not taken proactive measures on this important issue.

I could go on, but in short...comparing my previous post to Hitler and Stalin is ludicrous. Such a knee-jerk reaction.

turgon

In fairness those who have strong opinons on immigration are going to go out of their way to post, and those who dont have strong convictions just arent going to bother. So when your reading an immigration thread it would seem, yes, that cart loads of people are anti it.

@af_thefragile: I realize where your coming from, its just from my own personal experience my parents didnt prepare me in any way for sex, instead just staying quite or preaching abstinence when ever I got a girlfriend. So when it came to it, I had no clue what I was doing and I continued to stay in the dark for a long long time. And at least I had the sense to use a condom, I dont know how many kids dont. Do you see how parents can intentionally mislead there kids?

Iwasfrozen

I agree with markesmith, we need to cut down on immigration though. truth be there are too many non - nationals claiming on the Dole and not contributing to the State.
@af_thefragile: How about we calm down on the immediate critisism of anything that isn't Archo-Capitalism, huh ?

markesmith

af_thefragile, you seem an intelligent fellow with some interesting opinions. But back to the OP's question - obviously, we'd need to know what the party was.

Any party that can rein in free-market capitalism, so that society does not have to endure the cycle of boom/bust, would be well-received, I think. A party that allows business to flourish, while at the same time regulating heavily the use of money to manipulate markets. Hedge funds, stock speculation, over-excited property development, etc.

Our economy is expected to contract by over 9% this year, much more than other Western economies. They're comparing Ireland's to the worst contraction by a Western economy since the early '30s.

In many countries across Europe, left-wing parties are being voted in. But in Ireland, we don't really have a viable left alternative.

I think that, in place of another party to dilute the effectiveness of the proportional representation system, we should look to improve and modernise the Labour Party.

turgon

markesmith wrote: »

Any party that can rein in free-market capitalism, so that society does not have to endure the cycle of boom/bust, would be well-received, I think.

Thats what every single party in the Dail is preaching to do.

And as to no viable left wing alternative - what do you call the Labour party?

markesmith

turgon wrote: »

And as to no viable left wing alternative - what do you call the Labour party?

I just don't think Gilmore is doing a great job at promoting the party. They really should be out there, getting themselves across. Now is a good opportunity for Labour - people are disillusioned with Fianna Fail, and a lot of us think Fine Gael aren't going to represent any huge change in policy. Both are essentially centre-right Christian Democrat parties. It's time Labour pushed itself seriously as an alternative.

So, unlike in the UK, Labour is not exactly a viable alternative, i.e. if they do get in Government they'll pay the price of power - minority party in a coalition Government.

As an aside, I've noticed that there's a bit of a tendency to jump on remarks in this forum. You really have to watch what you're saying. What's all that about? I'd say it keeps a lot of people from contributing.

turgon

markesmith wrote: »

So, unlike in the UK, Labour is not exactly a viable alternative, i.e. if they do get in Government they'll pay the price of power - minority party in a coalition Government.

Yeah but the alternative is to start a new Left Wing party, and they will certainly by even more of a minority than Labour. There is always Sinn Fein...

markesmith wrote: »

As an aside, I've noticed that there's a bit of a tendency to jump on remarks in this forum. You really have to watch what you're saying. What's all that about? I'd say it keeps a lot of people from contributing.

Internet, Serious Business

But sorry if I "jump" on your remarks

af_thefragile

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

@af_thefragile: How about we calm down on the immediate critisism of anything that isn't Archo-Capitalism, huh ?

Apologies... i guess i was a little too hasty to jump to that!


When i first posted my manifesto in this thread, i was still a very left wing socialist.
But since then i've changed and realised a libertarian free market state is the perfect state. I believe in power to the people not a handful of elite.

Both right and the left only have one objective. More power to the bureaucrats. They just have different ways of achieving it but thats what they do over time. Pass on regulations to restrict people's liberty and freedom over time.




Anyway, the best way to solve (not fight) the problem of growing number of immigrants and the pressure thats putting on the economy is to cut out the incentives for them to come in the first place. There is no need to be overly generous at one end to give all sorts of refugees and immigrants social and welfare security while on the other hand beat them with a big stick with immigration laws and such. The only thing this will do is make it harder for the genuine qualified immigrants who are contributing to the Irish society legally and fairly.

Now i really don't think immigrants can claim any social and welfare benefits here, the non EU immigrants don't get anything from the government. They're just here mostly as students (contributing to the economy by paying college fees) or working odd jobs, which i think its the fault of the Irish who are too lazy to work odd jobs, its much more easier for employers to hire immigrant workers who are much more willing to take up the job and work much harder.


Forget left and right, a libertarian party is the one that will solve all problems by letting the people decide for themselves what they want. This will fix the economy, create more local businesses creating more jobs, attract more foreign businesses bringing more revenue to the country and creating more jobs. Socialism will not fix this economic crisis.

All the top economists (who aren't government propaganda economists) are saying the same thing. Bailing out businesses, pumping more money (created out of thin air) into the economy is only gonna create more debt and inflate the economic bubble more. The government is fighting hard to control bank interest rates and inflation. But all this will do is prepare the market for another bigger collapse and is gonna make sure this depression drags on for another 5-10 years. The only way to fix the economy is to just leave it. The market will fix itself and sure you'll have one bad year but then things will get back right. Here's the choice, you could either let the market fix itself by having one bad year where you reduce spending, let some businesses fail and go bankrupt, face a hard time. Or you could keep fighting this recession by more government sanctions and regulations and make sure this goes on for another decade till we have completely exhausted all of our reserves and finally realise, yup, its time to change.


I'm gonna be signing off this site, so this is probably gonna be my last post.
I've said all i had to say. I follow people like Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Lew Rockwell so if you wanna know what's the way we need to progress to ensure freedom and liberty for everyone, i'll say go listen to them and see what they've gotta say about it. They're a few handful of people who have got it right. Peter Schiff was ridiculed back in 2006-2007 when the economies were doing great and he predicted this recession around the corner. Peter Schiff is still being ridiculed today when he's criticising the Obama administration's plans of saving the economy and predicting the dollar to collapse soon. Logic and previous patters tell us thats exactly where we are heading. Towards a total economic collapse and unless we change our ways, its gonna be inevitable. You don't need to dream or work for a socialist state cuz we're heading right in that direction. But its not the kind of socialism Marx dreamed of.

A libertarian state would solve most of the crisis of the modern day western world. But no one likes to give away their hard earned power back to the people!

Thats it from me!

markesmith

af_thefragile wrote: »

I'm gonna be signing off this site, so this is probably gonna be my last post.

Something I said, af_thefragile? I hope not

Some really good points in your last post. But I think we can't really be black and white about how we'll get out of this. Libertarian policies would work very well in that we'd probably have less of a tax requirement.

Schiff predicted the coming downturn, but in fairness a lot of people did. Now he's talking about stocking up on guns and ammo to survive the coming apocalypse. Rockwell is not terribly different from that (e.g. "10 Core Values of Survivalism"). Ron Paul advocates the US leaving everything (UN, NATO, etc).

The Libertarian viewpoint that you espouse would, in my view, erode any remaining sense of community in this country. It would perpetuate the whole "me fein" attitude that's been so prevalent in Irish society in the last 20 years. You political viewpoint is, essentially, every man for him/herself.

I can see where you're coming from with it, it might suit the US, but it's just not something I'm into at all.

Driseog

I know its sounds cliche and totally unrealistic but a completely fresh organisation is needed and everything about the current system needs to be totally transformed.
The whole political, business, banking set up is rotten to the core and its so bad the people in there can't even see it. Its rotten on the left and the right. I think there is as much cronyism among the unions as there is among the bankers.
Its just embedded in our culture even though that doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it. I think we as a nation are going to be forced to radically change the way we do business because I've a very bad feeling the IMF are going to be called in before the end of the year to take us over.
The government at the moment is behaving like the banks did 10 months ago, telling us that "we're ok and we'll get through it". The politicians aren't in touch with reality anymore, the worst is only around the corner. Maybe in the long term it'll be a good thing if it means we change the way we run the country in the future. Sorry bout the rant.

Scofflaw

turgon wrote: »

In fairness those who have strong opinons on immigration are going to go out of their way to post, and those who dont have strong convictions just arent going to bother. So when your reading an immigration thread it would seem, yes, that cart loads of people are anti it.

Indeed, those who feel strongly the other way don't bother posting, because there simply isn't any point. I don't think anyone has ever been persuaded out of disliking immigration.

cordially,
Scofflaw

edanto

industrialhorse wrote: »

YO!

calling together any system analysts, web designers/developers, programmers, musicians and allsorts to bring their views into the mix and see what we can come up with?? whos interested???

Hey - what happened to you?! One post and out?! That's not really encouraging for the rest of us that might want to join you!

Seriously - all you'd need to get together would be another hundred people according to Smithy's post and we could all join it. Of course we'd need at least a basic idea of what we have in common and might be campaigning on and how it might be better than/different to other parties.

I'll join in, but I don't have much time at the moment so I could only come to a few meetings. You set it up, we'll get a few heads there!

Iwasfrozen

Seriously - all you'd need to get together would be another hundred people according to Smithy's post and we could all join it. Of course we'd need at least a basic idea of what we have in common and might be campaigning on and how it might be better than/different to other parties.

Before you even think of joining a party its wise to at least know what that party stands for.
To be honest I think this was a prank, the op didn't even post his prospective parties ideology/stance on issues.

edanto

Ah of course yeah.

Also, I reckon the OP was just someone who felt strongly about one particular issue and then maybe thought of an idea to improve the political system and couldn't see a way to implement that through political parties that are out there at the moment.

It's such an incredible amount of work to help out on even one small issue - like if the desire took you, it would be possible to spend 30h a week campaigning on environmental issues and still have very little success influencing government policies. I think politics is harder work than it looks!

AngryHippie

Unless you know how to play the game and who to talk to and/or have something to offer thats why the systemis pretty much fcuked

turgon

edanto wrote: »

Hey - what happened to you?! One post and out?! That's not really encouraging for the rest of us that might want to join you!

The developers got to him already

Belfast

KeyLimePie wrote: »

the first manifesto is very liberal and the second is conservative..

They both seem too radical for Ireland in the present climate.

For any radical change to be made the people need to shown the flaws of the present system is not confined to the government but to all the political parties in the Dail., all their polices are more or less the same ( variations on a theme)


Better Idea that a political party is a Think Thank.

It can analyse what the political parties are doing and the flaws.
It can look at the law already passed and those about to be pasted and show their flaws
The media should do this but does not.

The Think Tanks should be able to analyze issue from a
Marxist,
Libertarian,
Anarchist
etc
points of view.

The idea is not to favour any one point of view, but to show up the lack of ideas and poor quality of the present parties.

This hopefully will get people think for themselves and force the present political parties to adopt new ideas or be consigned to the dust bin of history.
if this happen and the present parties are discredited then new parties could be formed with some chance of success.