Drogheda United Gain PD Licence - the LoI Is a complete farce - I'm out

Gavin "shels"

gimmick wrote: »

Take a bow, and your medal is in the post. You will have to share it with your other shels fans though, as I could not be arsed buying one for all 5 of ye.

And the manual can read whateevr the **** it wants, we got the license. Live with it.

Did you read it? And did it contradict what the FAI have said today? I find the answer to the latter question to be yes it did contradict the Licensing Manual, if you see otherwise I'll be happy to know and I'll purchase a new pair of specs for myself.;)

pablomakaveli

Gavin shels wrote: »

No one did, but saying that we seem to be the only fans that know how to read the 2009 Licensing Manual, for your convenience I've linked the Manual:

http://www.fai.ie/pdf/FAI_Club_Licensing_Manual_2009.pdf have a read of page 88, Fin 1.03 and 1.04.

Then compare them two rules to what the FAI have said today

City came to an agreement with the owed parties before the deadline.

Read p.87 of the manual.

The "deferred by mutual agreement" part specifically.

Gavin "shels"

pablomakaveli wrote: »

City came to an agreement with the owed parties before the deadline.

Read p.87 of the manual.

The "deferred by mutual agreement" part specifically.

Mutual agreement? I think not, more of an agreement on Cork's side and basically f*ck all the rest.

I have a feeling this arguement could go on until the end of this season.:D

CiaranC

pablomakaveli wrote: »

City came to an agreement with the owed parties before the deadline.

Read p.87 of the manual.

The "deferred by mutual agreement" part specifically.

Which deadline? Im confused as to which of the three deadlines the FAI invented for yous to meet you are talking about.

You only agreed to pay Matthews off last week ffs.

pablomakaveli

Gavin shels wrote: »

Mutual agreement? I think not, more of an agreement on Cork's side and basically f*ck all the rest.

I have a feeling this arguement could go on until the end of this season.:D

No they reached a mutual agreement to pay back the owed money. The condition to their licence is that this money will be paid back as agreed. They came to that agreemant before the 31st of January. It's in the manual that you've claimed to have read.

monkey9

Gavin shels wrote: »

No one did, but saying that we seem to be the only fans that know how to read the 2009 Licensing Manual, for your convenience I've linked the Manual:

http://www.fai.ie/pdf/FAI_Club_Licensing_Manual_2009.pdf have a read of page 88, Fin 1.03 and 1.04.

Then compare them two rules to what the FAI have said today

Did you actually read that whole manual??

Quint

There shouldn't even be a thread on licences. Every year every club gets the licence they need, even though there's about 5 clubs that shouldn't. The whole licence thing is a joke

Gavin "shels"

monkey9 wrote: »

Did you actually read that whole manual??

No I didn't, read the important parts, e.g. Stadium, finances, etc...

monkey9

Gavin shels wrote: »

No I didn't, read the important parts, e.g. Stadium, finances, etc...

Bloody hell, i was wondering. I mean, there's having an interest in the league and all. But the thought of having to plough through that....!??????!!!!

ctrl-alt-delete

Gavin shels wrote: »

No I didn't, read the important parts, e.g. Stadium, finances, etc...

Mr. Lenihan?

Gavin "shels"

monkey9 wrote: »

Bloody hell, i was wondering. I mean, there's having an interest in the league and all. But the thought of having to plough through that....!??????!!!!

Ye 224 pages is a bit far fetched tbh, I'd say I've read about 50 pages over the last 2 weeks of it.

LeixlipRed

I read the part which said FAI at the start and threw it away.

fermoyboy

Many different opinions on here, some people angry at decisions and some people happy their clubs got licenses!

The decisions may be dodgey, the crew that run the league may be useless and the problems with the whole thing too many to mention...........but we all know that regardless of how things pan out we're all still gonna go to our clubs games every week!!

The fact that we get worked up over the decisions means we care about the league and our clubs and not foreign teams!!

I can't wait for the new season to get up and running!

eagle eye

fermoyboy wrote: »

Many different opinions on here, some people angry at decisions and some people happy their clubs got licenses!

The decisions may be dodgey, the crew that run the league may be useless and the problems with the whole thing too many to mention...........but we all know that regardless of how things pan out we're all still gonna go to our clubs games every week!!

The fact that we get worked up over the decisions means we care about the league and our clubs and not foreign teams!!

I can't wait for the new season to get up and running!

This is not the GAA section, its the soccer forum or Association football which has its roots in England(the home of association football).

Maybe those that follow teams in England appreciate the history of Association Football. Maybe those same people appreciate the history of Irish games and support their local gaa clubs.

If you want to sing the praises of a League and an FAI who change the rules when it suits them, give licenses to teams who have made a shambles of their clubs but demote others for the same thing, who refuse to grant a license to a historically successful club like Dundalk in their first year of the new league, and had the great traitor Louis Kilcoyne as their chairman after what he did, then fire ahead but don't come all high and mighty and wailing about foreign teams.

DSB

Stopping supporting Shels because the FAI are clowns has got to be one of the least wise ideas I've heard in quite a while. Makes no sense.

SectionF

eagle eye wrote: »

This is not the GAA section, its the soccer forum or Association football which has its roots in England(the home of association football).

Maybe those that follow teams in England appreciate the history of Association Football. Maybe those same people appreciate the history of Irish games and support their local gaa clubs.

Well, like it or not, they are foreign.

Maybe, so that it doesn't read negatively, amend it so that is reads... 'and not solely foreign teams'.

CHD

Find yourself a nice barstool Des.

dreamers75

So theres 1 less shels fan , does that mean they are down to only 2 now?

Eirebear

Des if you Pm me your address i can send over a Rangers jersey if you want

DSB

dreamers75 wrote: »

So theres 1 less shels fan , does that mean they are down to only 2 now?

FAIL. Pats average attendance was only 800 higher than Shels last season. Given that away teams in the Premier Division actually bring fans, and the amount of Dublin derbies you had, this doesn't say much for Pats.

invincibleirish

Ramblers demoted to the A division, no surprise i suppose. Still disappointing for Cobh.

GuanYin

Trolling League of Ireland fans doesn't sparkle with me.

You have been warned.

fermoyboy

eagle eye wrote: »

If you want to sing the praises of a League and an FAI who change the rules when it suits them, give licenses to teams who have made a shambles of their clubs but demote others for the same thing, who refuse to grant a license to a historically successful club like Dundalk in their first year of the new league, and had the great traitor Louis Kilcoyne as their chairman after what he did, then fire ahead but don't come all high and mighty and wailing about foreign teams.

Maybe you'd like to explain where I was being all high and mighty and wailing about foreign teams???

I never said there was no faults with the league because everyone can clearly see that there has been problems with the running of the league for years. I didn't exactly come on here singing praises of the FAI now did I??

The people posting in this conversation are, as far as I can see, supporters of LoI teams, that go to games, travel around the country on cold, wet Tuesday nights to watch games. People whose moods can change for the week depending on the result their team got in a game. Everyone of these people know there are serious faults with the league yet everyone of these people still supports their team through thick and thin.

My post that you replied to was one in which I was stating that as bad as things may get, none of us are gonna walk away from our team.......which is what one person said he'd do. We (and maybe you too, I don't know you) are people who enjoy going to football and watching live games rather than shouting at tv's

Nalz

can see my attempt to lighten the mood with a song to Des failed badly!

kerash

Trilla wrote: »

can see my attempt to lighten the mood with a song to Des failed badly!

I liked your song. Good effort.:) Poor old Des, he's really very annoyed. I'm sure he'll come to his senses sooner or later.

redzerdrog

have to say i am delighted we got a prem licence:D:D:D:D:D:D

a couple of months ago we would have been happy with an A championship licence as long as there was a club thats all that mattered to the fans, many of who worked so hard and gave so much to help the club out. hopefully lessons will be learned and we wont have to go through the last 6months ever again.

themont85

Another shining example of the shambles that is the FAI and by extension the LoI is. Once again this brings negative press to the League and all they have done is sweep some problems under the carpet ignoring rules which were supposed to make it a viable league.

Personally I often see on this forum and other LoI fans bitching about what a shambles the FAI are and how they treat the league. Well, interesting that the lads who's clubs got licenses are so happy despite their own clubs being run poorly. An attitude of 'Well i don't care, its not my fault they got the licence. I'm delighted and **** Shels we all laughed when it happened to them' may be great short term cos your still in the league but basically you are going along with the FAI shambles and are apart of it, imo abdicating any right to bitch and moan about the FAI in the future.

GuanYin

I wonder if you guys copied our system and sold franchises to clubs from the league organization down, would your league system improve? Even if you set it up over a 5-10 year period before letting the clubs loose to self-govern, it might be a way to get all the clubs off the ground, build a fanbase and get your league in shape.

Gavin "shels"

GuanYin wrote: »

I wonder if you guys copied our system and sold franchises to clubs from the league organization down, would your league system improve? Even if you set it up over a 5-10 year period before letting the clubs loose to self-govern, it might be a way to get all the clubs off the ground, build a fanbase and get your league in shape.

American or Australian?

My opinion on the matter would be to shove it so far up someones arse that it would never see the life of day again. Our teams have history, most histories which consist of around 100 years, to go and throw that away like Cork, etc... did, no thanks.

I could picture Ollie Byrne jumping out of his grave and kicking whos idea it was up the arse.:D

themont85

GuanYin wrote: »

I wonder if you guys copied our system and sold franchises to clubs from the league organization down, would your league system improve? Even if you set it up over a 5-10 year period before letting the clubs loose to self-govern, it might be a way to get all the clubs off the ground, build a fanbase and get your league in shape.

Oh dear God, i wouldn't be suggesting that around these parts, it doesn't end well trust me.

To be fair the sensible fan knows that something has to change in the LoI, more false dawns than in Ann Frank's diary for the average LoI fan.

_blank_

Franchise football is a horrible idea.

Horrible.

Shelhemians?

Dublin United (lol)

Midlands Rovers

Louth Lions

Northeast Neptunes

No thanks.

SectionF

Welcome back Des.

_blank_

SectionF wrote: »

Welcome back Des.

I'm not back anywhere, but as a fan of football, I think franchising it out is a disgusting idea, especially when proper teams already exist.

smackbunnybaby

i think a form of Franchise football may work in some areas of the country and help bring some new clubs into the league.

The people who are anti-franchise tend to be from Dublin who have a wealth of teams at their disposal to follow.

but i would welcome a league team from Mayo, Kerry, Carlow/Kilkenny area, Offaly/Laois, Tipperary - with the team being made up of the players from that county's league system.

this way you keep all the current teams from Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick etc etc.

Maybe franchise is the wrong word to use here?

_blank_

smackbunnybaby wrote: »

i think a form of Franchise football may work in some areas of the country and help bring some new clubs into the league.

The people who are anti-franchise tend to be from Dublin who have a wealth of teams at their disposal to follow.

but i would welcome a league team from Mayo, Kerry, Carlow/Kilkenny area, Offaly/Laois, Tipperary - with the team being made up of the players from that county's league system.

this way you keep all the current teams from Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick etc etc.

Maybe franchise is the wrong word to use here?

Kind of how the Gah works?

It would be very hard to organise, but do-able.

It would mean some kind of co-operation between the LoI and Junior Soccer all over the country, and the two organisations are poles apart, always have been.

smackbunnybaby

Des wrote: »

Kind of how the Gah works?

It would be very hard to organise, but do-able.

It would mean some kind of co-operation between the LoI and Junior Soccer all over the country, and the two organisations are poles apart, always have been.

yes it would be similar to how the Gah works, particularly in areas like Kerry where you have teams like North Kerry, South Kerry etc competing with the bigger clubs like Stacks and O'Rahillys.

Like you mentioned about Junior Leagues, this does happen at underage levels? i remember when growing up there was a Kerry District League team and similarly for Tipperary.

The biggest problem could be infiltrating Gah communities however, despite Association Football being one of the popular sports to actually play.

_blank_

Football is absolutely huge in the gah stronghold that is Kerry, in fact, and I don't know if you know this or not, The Kerry League has entered a team into the LoI League Cup in a number of recent seasons.

GuanYin

Des wrote: »

Franchise football is a horrible idea.

Horrible.

Shelhemians?

Dublin United (lol)

Midlands Rovers

Louth Lions

Northeast Neptunes

No thanks.

Well 1. we won't let you name the teams and 2. I think you mis-understand how the MLS franchise operates.

Simply put, club franchises are owned by the league and the franchise rights are leased to the franchise holders. So in the case of, Drogheda (if Americans were running LoI it would be easier to spell the names of your clubs intuitively) the league would lease the rights to the board, the league would give all clubs an equally divided budget each year, all player contracts would be held by the league so all players would be paid by the league, all profit would be divided between clubs.

This would mean that bankrupt clubs would never happen in the the LoI. Even if the franchise system only lasted 5 years, it would be 5 years of setting up sustainable business models for clubs so that when the leases were turned back over the clubs would have a fighting chance. OK, I've simplified the system down to a form of communism and it isn't wholly accurate, but for the intents of explaining, it is what it is.


I really don't understand the attitudes of some LoI (and former LoI) fans. You guys talk about wanting a league that is well run and can compete in Europe, not losing your best players to England and drawing fans. However, you reject any notion of not doing things "your way". You want all these things but you only want them if they happens in a very specific and completely unrealistic manner. You reject any notion of changing the league to accommodate growth (the merger with the Northern League, franchise football etc) and you alienate those would-be fans every chance you have.

I grew up with no pro-league, it didn't get into action until 1996 and it was nothing like the EPL... ya know what? I was just happy that we were getting a pro-league and I would get to see live soccer games with pro-players. Our league started crappy, we didn't have too many famous names but with time and compromise, we have sustainable clubs a large homegrown player pool for internationals and expanding franchises (we can now even afford to set up a pro-women's league).

You guys could have what you want, you just have to change the attitude of how you go about getting it.

_blank_

GuanYin wrote: »

You reject any notion of changing the league to accommodate growth (the merger with the Northern League

:eek:

This is untrue.

Many, many LoI posters on this forum have weighed in behind the notion of a unified all-ireland league.

I see it as the way forward, but the two associations, for their own greedy reasons, don't.

Your other ideas though, they have some merit.

GuanYin

Des wrote: »

:eek:

This is untrue.

Many, many LoI posters on this forum have weighed in behind the notion of a unified all-ireland league.

I see it as the way forward, but the two associations, for their own greedy reasons, don't.

Ok, I'm sorry if I got that wrong, I remember some aggressively negative posts about the idea, but then again, I tend to remember them .

stovelid

GuamYin, I agree with a lot of your points but more supporters (and clubs) fancied the idea of an all ireland league than you think.

In addition, any LOI supporters with sense want to see prudent business models in place at their clubs. The lesson is being learned painfully and slowly as each club implodes. Unfortunately, the directors of clubs (including some member clubs) need to quit the short term oneupmanship or looking to speculators to provide the income that isn't being generated at the gates. Most importantly, the FAI need to provide strong leadership if the rules are flouted, and a vision for the league similar to that provided by the GAA.

As for putting off new recruits. People will come to games if they want to. I really don't believe that the reason for low attendances is down to the (admittedly, but often understandably) bitterness of some LOI supporters. I didn't see any of the 25000 fans that turned up to Shels and Deportivo crying in the corner about their prospective abuse in football forums across the country, in fairness.

Strangely enough, my own friends were apoplectic when I once jokingly suggested that in order to break the stranglehold of big clubs in leagues like the EPL (and the fans of other clubs that have no chance of silverware) that some formula could be devised whereby players are part of a pool that is spread (especially the marquee players) around the clubs every season to give every club a long-term chance of trophies. As player loyalty to a club is a apocryphal concept these days, and supporter loyalty is to a club rather than player, it would probably work.

I was only jesting, but they didn't like that at all.

CiaranC

GuanYin wrote: »

Well 1. we won't let you name the teams and 2. I think you mis-understand how the MLS franchise operates.

Simply put, club franchises are owned by the league and the franchise rights are leased to the franchise holders. So in the case of, Drogheda (if Americans were running LoI it would be easier to spell the names of your clubs intuitively) the league would lease the rights to the board, the league would give all clubs an equally divided budget each year, all player contracts would be held by the league so all players would be paid by the league, all profit would be divided between clubs.

This would mean that bankrupt clubs would never happen in the the LoI. Even if the franchise system only lasted 5 years, it would be 5 years of setting up sustainable business models for clubs so that when the leases were turned back over the clubs would have a fighting chance. OK, I've simplified the system down to a form of communism and it isn't wholly accurate, but for the intents of explaining, it is what it is.


I really don't understand the attitudes of some LoI (and former LoI) fans. You guys talk about wanting a league that is well run and can compete in Europe, not losing your best players to England and drawing fans. However, you reject any notion of not doing things "your way". You want all these things but you only want them if they happens in a very specific and completely unrealistic manner. You reject any notion of changing the league to accommodate growth (the merger with the Northern League, franchise football etc) and you alienate those would-be fans every chance you have.

I grew up with no pro-league, it didn't get into action until 1996 and it was nothing like the EPL... ya know what? I was just happy that we were getting a pro-league and I would get to see live soccer games with pro-players. Our league started crappy, we didn't have too many famous names but with time and compromise, we have sustainable clubs a large homegrown player pool for internationals and expanding franchises (we can now even afford to set up a pro-women's league).

You guys could have what you want, you just have to change the attitude of how you go about getting it.

Excellent post.

But the reality of the situation is that for my club, which is fan owned and run, this would mean handing over the reigns to the FAI. Ill repeat that: Give the keys to SRFC to the FAI.

Im sure I dont have to tell you the issues members might have with that.

So its a non-runner before we even start.

Anto McC

The FAI are insulting the intelligence of every LoI fan

It's an insult to our intelligence to expect us to believe that Drogheda are worthy of a Premier licence.

It's an insult to our intelligence to expect us to believe that they were only awarded it today and they had no prior knowledge of it, when they were able to hire a manger 3 weeks ago, on the assurance they they'd be a Premier club.

It's an insult to our intelligence that they expect us to believe the Licencing committee are "Independant"

It's an insult to our intelligence that they expect us to believe that Stepen McGuinness, head of the PFAI has no conflict of interest while working out of offices they provide.

It's an insult to our intelligence that they expect us to believe all is rosy in the garden and that the league isn't in crisis.

It's an insult that after Shels have pretty much paid, or are in the process of paying any bill we ever had and for the full amount, that the FAI's licencing committee would give us a premier licence when 2 teams in the last 6 months have renaged on paying their employees full wages, entered into examinership and then made deals with the examiner and are also awarded the exact same licence as us.

_blank_

Fair play Anto.

But you left out your last line.

Anto McC

True but because i don't think it'll have as much significance here as it does on Shelsweb but i'll say it just fo you Des. The line "F*ck them all" from the Shels chant has never been more apt since yesterdays licencing fiasco.

SectionF

GuanYin wrote: »

Well 1. we won't let you name the teams and 2. I think you mis-understand how the MLS franchise operates.

Simply put, club franchises are owned by the league and the franchise rights are leased to the franchise holders. So in the case of, Drogheda (if Americans were running LoI it would be easier to spell the names of your clubs intuitively) the league would lease the rights to the board, the league would give all clubs an equally divided budget each year, all player contracts would be held by the league so all players would be paid by the league, all profit would be divided between clubs.

This would mean that bankrupt clubs would never happen in the the LoI. Even if the franchise system only lasted 5 years, it would be 5 years of setting up sustainable business models for clubs so that when the leases were turned back over the clubs would have a fighting chance. OK, I've simplified the system down to a form of communism and it isn't wholly accurate, but for the intents of explaining, it is what it is...

Sounds to me to be a great model for addressing what ails the uncompetitive EPL, but a magic wand and a spot of off-the-cuff branding (I like our spellings, thanks) won't bring Irish people to Irish football.

More than likely, the most it would generate would be a field day for the enemies of the game here, career EPL hacks whose notion of Siberia is covering a LoI game, and GAA heads pronouncing on what would be framed* as yet another Irish football soccer fiasco.

Incidentally, I vigorously supported the idea of an all-Ireland league here and elsewhere, and still do.





*

therecklessone

SectionF wrote: »

a magic wand and a spot of off-the-cuff branding (I like our spellings, thanks) won't bring Irish people to Irish football.

But it might just put an end to the farcical situation re. club finances and licenses being awarded to clubs who have breached regulations, to the effect that it might prevent current fans from walking away.

How about we learn to walk before we run?

There is no doubt in my mind that this last few days has done untold damage to an already ailing league, if for no reason other than to provide the naysayers with more ammunition.

SectionF

therecklessone wrote: »

But it might just put an end to the farcical situation re. club finances and licenses being awarded to clubs who have breached regulations, to the effect that it might prevent current fans from walking away.

How about we learn to walk before we run?

There is no doubt in my mind that this last few days has done untold damage to an already ailing league, if for no reason other than to provide the naysayers with more ammunition.

I don't think so. There's a disproportionate number of rather bitter Shels fans on here (although the most vocal one and thread OP said he was out and isn't) and they won't be happy until they come up or the whole edifice comes down.
The league will survive this. The season is a couple of weeks away, and, away from the doom-mongers, the excitement is building. We will have seriously competitive football, in Ireland, for Irish football lovers, and that can't be bad.
Two in a row for the Bohs!

GuanYin

SectionF wrote: »

The league will survive this. The season is a couple of weeks away, and, away from the doom-mongers, the excitement is building. We will have seriously competitive football, in Ireland, for Irish football lovers, and that can't be bad.
Two in a row for the Bohs!

Is surviving enough? And what about next time? Or the time after? It isn't as if club management is the only thing you guys are struggling with. Your facilities look awful, they will only get worse and if your'e keeping yourself above water barely, how will you improve them?

I've watched some league or Ireland (I apologize for referring it to Irish league btw, I have had myself severely sanctioned for that) and I wholeheartedly believe that the MLS, a league 12 years old built from the ground up, is a stronger, more competitive league.

As I've said before, given our potential player pool, the only thing holding us back from attaining equality with English top leagues is the NCAA's archaic rules on scholarships and pro-contracts that were created with domestic sports in mind.

Our attendances are averaging 20K across the league and OK, we don't have your atmosphere or history, but it will come.

I wonder would this make a better thread of it's own. Something on models for a successful league.. meh...

In short, if you want things like this to stop happening in Irish Soccer, you need to draw a line under past failures and take a completely new approach imo.

SectionF

GuanYin wrote: »

I've watched some league or Ireland (I apologize for referring it to Irish league btw, I have had myself severely sanctioned for that) and I wholeheartedly believe that the MLS, a league 12 years old built from the ground up, is a stronger, more competitive league.

As I've said before, given our potential player pool, the only thing holding us back from attaining equality with English top leagues is the NCAA's archaic rules on scholarships and pro-contracts that were created with domestic sports in mind.

Can we have some perspective? You are comparing a U.S. national league with one on one part of this island with 4.5m people. If it weren't stronger I'd be deeply concerned for its future.