Views on keeping high-maintenance exotics (and other ethical issues)

SCI · 22-02-2009 3:06pm

It's sad that they won't except that some exotics are more suited
for some people as pets and they can easily fits into peoples lives better
than the more traditional pets do.

sorella · 22-02-2009 6:23pm

Education is clearly needed; but this tends to be a slow process needing patience and forbearance on all sides, rather than refusing to help?

That solves nothing?

SCI wrote: »

That seems to be the problem in the UK,the RSPCA and the USPCA have made it clear they don't like people keeping reptiles and exotics as pets and many people that would have the knowledge to help wouldn't touch them with a barge poll.

Our man in Havana · 22-02-2009 6:50pm

Why would anyone want to assist an organisation that is trying actively to stop you from keeping your exotics?

SCI · 22-02-2009 7:10pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Why would anyone want to assist an organisation that is trying actively to stop you from keeping your exotics?

I totally agree,why would it benefit keepers to help them? I think they
need to change there ways in a big way before I'd even consider it. In
my eyes it's ridiculous having a charity trying to act like some sort of animal
police. I guess in the ideal world there would be a section of every police force just for animal cruelty,who would treat all animals keepers be they farmers,dogs owner etc the same and fairly with specialists in as many different fields as they can get there hands on.

Discodog · 22-02-2009 7:26pm

SCI wrote: »

That seems to be the problem in the UK,the RSPCA and the USPCA have made it clear they don't like people keeping reptiles and exotics as pets and many people that would have the knowledge to help wouldn't touch them with a barge poll.

I have kept & rescued many animals including protected wild species. I have never found the RSPCA to be anything other than helpful. How can you expect an inspector to be an expert on every species ?. They are paid peanuts, take abuse all day long & have to make instant decisions on the spot.

A friend of mine has a "reptile zoo" & he runs triaining courses for rescues & the RSPCA. Instead of moaning about inspectors why don't you either become one or volunteer to help ?. Inspectors are always looking for people who can help, someone to phone when they find an exotic & the upside is that they may ask you to home a nice exotic for free.

The reference to RSPCA applies equally to the SPCA's here.

As for the "dirty tank man" I wonder if he ranted & raved or took the time to explain the situation ?.

ISPCA Watch · 22-02-2009 7:46pm

Under what statuatory provisions do the SPCAS derive their alleged powers?

SCI · 22-02-2009 7:50pm

Discodog wrote: »

I have kept & rescued many animals including protected wild species. I have never found the RSPCA to be anything other than helpful. How can you expect an inspector to be an expert on every species ?. They are paid peanuts, take abuse all day long & have to make instant decisions on the spot.

A friend of mine has a "reptile zoo" & he runs triaining courses for rescues & the RSPCA. Instead of moaning about inspectors why don't you either become one or volunteer to help ?. Inspectors are always looking for people who can help, someone to phone when they find an exotic & the upside is that they may ask you to home a nice exotic for free.

The reference to RSPCA applies equally to the SPCA's here.

As for the "dirty tank man" I wonder if he ranted & raved or took the time to explain the situation ?.

The answer to that's simple,because I don't like there policy on exotic animals and I live in N.Ireland there is no RSPCA here.

Discodog · 22-02-2009 7:54pm

Well volunteer for the USPCA then !

Discodog · 22-02-2009 7:55pm

What alledged powers ?. Inspectors don't have powers which is why they work with the Police & Gardai.

Our man in Havana · 22-02-2009 8:02pm

ISPCA Watch wrote: »

Under what statuatory provisions do the SPCAS derive their alleged powers?

There are none. There are no laws on the books that give the ISPCA, or any other such organisation any statutory role or any special powers.

An aside, any person can establish a SPCA without any permission from any governmental authority.

SCI wrote: »

The answer to that's simple,because I don't like there policy on exotic animals and I live in N.Ireland there is no RSPCA here.

There is no RSPCA in Scotland either. But that don't stop them collecting money in Scotland and spirting it away south of the border. The Scottish SPCA is livid.

Discodog wrote: »

Well volunteer for the USPCA then !

He has explained his reasons why he does not want to.

Discodog · 22-02-2009 8:11pm

The only "policy" of the USPCA that mentions exotics is section
1.2.1

"The display of animals in pet shops, pet supermarkets and garden
centres can lead to impulse buying without proper regard for the
responsibilities of animal ownership. Exotic animals such as snakes, lizards and terrapins are difficult to look after and will rarely be provided with adequate facilities".

If you are a reptile lover you can't disagree with that. We have all seen the situation where someone goes to a pet shop, sees something exotic & takes it home with no idea of how to look after it.

Many enthusiasts research their choice & go to great lengths to ensure that they are well kept. The USPCA comments are clearly not aimed at them.

Discodog · 22-02-2009 8:19pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Why would anyone want to assist an organisation that is trying actively to stop you from keeping your exotics?

Can you please post proof/links ?

If you are making allegations then it is reasonable to post some refs

SCI · 22-02-2009 8:56pm

Discodog wrote: »

If you are a reptile lover you can't disagree with that. We have all seen the situation where someone goes to a pet shop, sees something exotic & takes it home with no idea of how to look after it.

.

Yes and the same thing could be said for any pet not just reptiles. Most
shops that I know of wouldn't let a person out there door with one of there
animals if they hadn't a clue.

SCI · 22-02-2009 8:58pm

Discodog wrote: »

Can you please post proof/links ?

If you are making allegations then it is reasonable to post some refs

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmenvfru/52/52we43.htm

It was this statement from the RSPCA makes there feelings pretty clear.

The first statement is that "animals that are kept in cages (or presumably any container), do not generally make suitable companion animals) pets) which means that virtually only cats and dogs are suitable as pets. The second statement categorically states that reptiles do not make suitable pets.

Rory123 · 22-02-2009 9:14pm

SCI wrote: »

.

The first statement is that "animals that are kept in cages (or presumably any container), do not generally make suitable companion animals) pets) which means that virtually only cats and dogs are suitable as pets. The second statement categorically states that reptiles do not make suitable pets.

Hamsters, canaries, fish etc etc. FFS LIKE!

SCI · 22-02-2009 9:29pm

Rory123 wrote: »

Hamsters, canaries, fish etc etc. FFS LIKE!

Yep the whole lot mate.

Lauragoesmad · 22-02-2009 9:55pm

I think the question that all animal keepers should ask themselves is "Am I enriching the life of this animal by keeping it in my care?" If the answer to this is no, then you shouldn't have the pet. Simple as.

The amount of exotic animals that are bought as pets and die prematurely due to ignorant or lazy owners or because they are bought as an impulse buy and the person never bothers to find out how to look after them properly.

Also, most of the people and petshops selling these animals are doing it just for the money. They don't care if someone is going to look after their lizard or parrot or monkey properly. They're just interested in the cash. Just as I would not buy from a dog breeder, I will not buy exotics from a petshop.

Busta Hyman · 22-02-2009 9:58pm

Discodog wrote: »

"The display of animals in pet shops, pet supermarkets and garden
centres can lead to impulse buying without proper regard for the
responsibilities of animal ownership. Exotic animals such as snakes, lizards and terrapins are difficult to look after and will rarely be provided with adequate facilities".

i kinda agree but tbh the pet shops need to be held accountable. ive seen ppl come back after 24hrs with a dead snake only for the reptile person place the snake under his jumper for 5 mins and the snake to become more active. ppl buy without prepareing. you CANNOT buy a fish tank and stock it the same day it takes a week to run the chlorine out the water and another week of "stocking up" to get the bio filters working without overloading. the same has to be said for reptiles buy / build your viv and run it for a week and take temp readings at the max BEFORE you fit your thermostat. that way you find out how hot your taank can get and add small vents. by tuneing in this way and designing your tank so the stats dont have to reduce temps that much if your stat fails with always on scenario ( it happened to me a while ago in a fish tank and nearly ended with boiled fish) you know that with due diligence its gonna be picked up before any damage is done.

Our man in Havana · 22-02-2009 10:02pm

Pet shops are unregulated. They should not be selling to muppets like that.

SCI · 23-02-2009 12:22pm

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

I think the question that all animal keepers should ask themselves is "Am I enriching the life of this animal by keeping it in my care?" If the answer to this is no, then you shouldn't have the pet. Simple as.

The amount of exotic animals that are bought as pets and die prematurely due to ignorant or lazy owners or because they are bought as an impulse buy and the person never bothers to find out how to look after them properly.

Also, most of the people and petshops selling these animals are doing it just for the money. They don't care if someone is going to look after their lizard or parrot or monkey properly. They're just interested in the cash. Just as I would not buy from a dog breeder, I will not buy exotics from a petshop.

Some pet shops I think are like that granted but in the North I think you would be surprised. I have to disagree that most breeders are into reptile breeding for the money,most wouldn't sell to anyone.You would need to be pretty thick not to realize that there are easier ways to make money than breeding reptiles and that's even if you do make a few quid.I've been breeding snakes for 5 years now and I've never made a penny not 1.I think most keep reptiles because they have a love for them and yes they better there lives.If reptiles were unhappy or stressed in the environment keepers keep them in would they do so well,breed and thrive.

Lauragoesmad · 24-02-2009 2:55am

SCI wrote: »

Some pet shops I think are like that granted but in the North I think you would be surprised.

To be honest, I am only going by breeders and petshops in the south.

SCI wrote: »

I have to disagree that most breeders are into reptile breeding for the money,most wouldn't sell to anyone.

So you think the majority of reptile breeders keep all they breed?

SCI wrote: »

You would need to be pretty thick not to realize that there are easier ways to make money than breeding reptiles and that's even if you do make a few quid.

I have heard dog breeders use the same argument.

SCI wrote: »

I've been breeding snakes for 5 years now and I've never made a penny not 1.

TBH, I think you are one of the few who can honestly say that. You obviously care for your animals if you bother to come on here to share advice with others but I really think you know most reptile breeders can't say the same.

SCI wrote: »

I think most keep reptiles because they have a love for them and yes they better there lives.If reptiles were unhappy or stressed in the environment keepers keep them in would they do so well,breed and thrive.

Animals will adapt to bad surroundings. Look at the dogs that carry to term in puppy farms. I'm in no way saying they will reproduce at the same rate or be as healthy as if they are in perfect conditions but they will still breed. And I really don't think that the majority of people who keep reptiles have large enough enclosures for them, therefore their lives are not enriched. Most are in small vivariums as you will well know you can often get the pet for less than the vivarium. They are big bucks.

sorella · 24-02-2009 9:21am

Amen to this.

Discodog wrote: »

I have kept & rescued many animals including protected wild species. I have never found the RSPCA to be anything other than helpful. How can you expect an inspector to be an expert on every species ?. They are paid peanuts, take abuse all day long & have to make instant decisions on the spot.

A friend of mine has a "reptile zoo" & he runs triaining courses for rescues & the RSPCA. Instead of moaning about inspectors why don't you either become one or volunteer to help ?. Inspectors are always looking for people who can help, someone to phone when they find an exotic & the upside is that they may ask you to home a nice exotic for free.

The reference to RSPCA applies equally to the SPCA's here.

As for the "dirty tank man" I wonder if he ranted & raved or took the time to explain the situation ?.

SCI · 24-02-2009 11:12am

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

To be honest, I am only going by breeders and petshops in the south.

So you think the majority of reptile breeders keep all they breed?

I have heard dog breeders use the same argument.

TBH, I think you are one of the few who can honestly say that. You obviously care for your animals if you bother to come on here to share advice with others but I really think you know most reptile breeders can't say the same.

Animals will adapt to bad surroundings. Look at the dogs that carry to term in puppy farms. I'm in no way saying they will reproduce at the same rate or be as healthy as if they are in perfect conditions but they will still breed. And I really don't think that the majority of people who keep reptiles have large enough enclosures for them, therefore their lives are not enriched. Most are in small vivariums as you will well know you can often get the pet for less than the vivarium. They are big bucks.

I know many breeders and some shops in the south and I could say the same about them too.You could say that vets,groomers,farmers an endless list are just into animals for the money,does it make it wrong? I know I'm sure 50% but likely more of the reptile breeder up here and I know them all from the net from forums to share advise. Yes animals to adapt to poor environments but many reptile don't,if not fed properly,given the correct heat and cycles correctly the majority will not breed and likely dye from stress related disease.

You mentioned about reptile cages(vivariums),this is the first mistake many people make with the husbandry of many reptiles,they assume there needs are the same a mammals they keep and that they need lots of room.This may be the case of lot of large to med sized lizards but not snakes and many invertebrates. Take cornsnake and royal pythons that I keep and have bred,I would almost bet my life if you put a baby cornsnake or royal python into a 3ft viv,the snake would never come out,it would dehydrate,stop eating and if the owner continued to keep it this way it would dye.Snakes and especially young snake are agoraphobic and like small vivariums. Yes you are correct some reptile vivariums can be expensive to setup and indeed run but then again many rescue dogs are free,its what comes after costs money and is something every pet owner should think about before they buy/home a new pet.On another note not all snakes for example are expensive to set-up,I can set-up a baby cornsnake with everything it needs for around £40.

SCI · 24-02-2009 11:58am

sorella wrote: »

Amen to this.

Did you read the link I put up?

SCI · 28-02-2009 4:44pm

Statistics on Human Fatality Linked to Captive Reptiles,interesting statistics from the states were many people keep so called dangerous reptiles.

http://www.riobravoreptiles.com/care_fatalities.htm

sorella · 01-03-2009 4:22am

???

I think we are at cross-purposes here.

This is UK law; it is Southern Ireland that concerns.

And you are speaking of exisiting laws, rather than what needs to be in place to protect..

SCI wrote: »

Did you read the link I put up?

SCI · 01-03-2009 11:16am

sorella wrote: »

???

I think we are at cross-purposes here.

This is UK law; it is Southern Ireland that concerns.

And you are speaking of exisiting laws, rather than what needs to be in place to protect..

It shows the the RSPCA stance on things,to which to said amen to.

sorella · 01-03-2009 1:54pm

Ah I see..

Well that is one view which clearly not all share

We know many SPCA and other rescue folk here and they try to do a difficult job well.

Old saying that to travel at the pace of the weakest lamb; and thus those who have skills share them also.

SCI wrote: »

It shows the the RSPCA stance on things,to which to said amen to.

SCI · 01-03-2009 2:34pm

sorella wrote: »

Ah I see..

Well that is one view which clearly not all share

We know many SPCA and other rescue folk here and they try to do a difficult job well.

Old saying that to travel at the pace of the weakest lamb; and thus those who have skills share them also.

I have no problem with rescue "folk",indeed I've rescued many reptiles myself and so do many friends. Yes it can be a difficult and expensive job to do but the stance the Rspca & uspca have taken is only making that job harder and is cutting back on 10 of thousands of pound in funding they could be having. I only hope the ispca don't go down the same road.

sorella · 01-03-2009 5:11pm

God reward you for that good work.

If I see a snake in trouble, I will know who to call:)

SCI wrote: »

I have no problem with rescue "folk",indeed I've rescued many reptiles myself and so do many friends. Yes it can be a difficult and expensive job to do but the stance the Rspca & uspca have taken is only making that job harder and is cutting back on 10 of thousands of pound in funding they could be having. I only hope the ispca don't go down the same road.

Views on keeping high-maintenance exotics (and other ethical issues)

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