Civil Servants on Less than 60K!!

SkepticOne

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

What is the median wage?

Not calculated in Ireland to my knowledge. It would be something below the average.

dvpower

thomasj wrote: »

its amazing that up to a few years ago private sector workers wouldnt dare go into the public sector because of the low pay and now after being out of the job they finally realise 25-30 better than nothing. Sour grapes i tell ya.

The problem with the public sector (CS in particular) is that its very difficult to move in and out. Someone who has 5 years experience in administration can't join as a Clerical Officer on point 5. A project manager with 5 years experience can't just join as an HEO half way up the scale. If you want to get into the public service, you generally have to join at a few predefined points, so it's practically closed to many people.

thomasj wrote: »

Its amazing that for all the whining out there that probably half of private sector employees didnt even apply to contribute to a pension and now they are giving out because the public sector have been paying a pension contribution

I'd have little sympathy for some complaining about their lack of pension if they haven't sorted one out. But I have great sympathy for those (of us) that have been paying large chunks of our salary into personal pension schemes only to see this going down the tubes. If I could pay an extra 9% to convert my defined contribution pension into a defined benefits one, I would in a heartbeat.

thomasj wrote: »

i dont know where you got the idea that the job is permanent i know mine is not and i am post 1995

Worst of both worlds; not getting the benefits but still paying the price.

thomasj wrote: »

and lets not talk about the paid christmas parties bonuses paid for in some cases health contributions and nights out

Fair enough, but the people most at risk of losing their jobs now aren't those who have been getting the big perks.

... and lets not talk about the flexi time, the privilege days, the half day xmas shopping (is that still going?), the time off to travel home for xmas (I presume that one's gone by now?)

L.R. Weizel

Terrance Zealous Snowmobile wrote: »

Anybody see the Impact union rep on Saturday stating that ""despite the public perception most civil servants aren't well paid and are on less than €60K"".

That to me shows the bubble they are living in when they think a salary of 60K is not well paid.

One of my colleagues who was laid off last week (along with 300 others in the company) mentioned in passing that with his degree in computer science and 10 years experience he was on €43K.

I have not been laid off yet but with my Engineering Degree and my almost 20 years experience in the private sector I too am on less than 60K, but I consider myself well paid.

Another key difference is that I have no job security.

Incidentally my family has also taken a pay cut with my wife being laid off. She too has an IT degree and was also paid much less than 60K.

My Dad is retired and my Mum is a public servant earning much less than 60K. They need the money to fix up the house. I'm sorry but I think you're completely out of touch, my mother is a modest worker and is taking a huge cut in her wages.

iseethelight

Impact don't represent the lower paid Civil/Public Servants the CPSU do listen to what they have to say.

pete

dvpower wrote: »

... and lets not talk about the flexi time, the privilege days, the half day xmas shopping (is that still going?), the time off to travel home for xmas (I presume that one's gone by now?)

Why not talk about them?

Flexi time is effectively free overtime for the employer. You work an extra 10.5 hours over a 4 week period, you can take the 10.5 hours over the following 4 week period. What's wrong with that?

Privilege days are a carryover from the british empire and are a total anachronism - orginally days off for the monarch's birthday (?) and something else not suitable for the Free State, I think. They should have been rolled up into annual leave entitlements years ago.

Someone once told me that the the "time off to travel home for christmas" was where the christmas shopping leave originated. It's a joke anyway. Don't think it happens everywhere, but definitely should have been knocked on the head.

pete

iseethelight wrote: »

Impact don't represent the lower paid Civil/Public Servants the CPSU do listen to what they have to say.

Impact represent the "professional grades" - engineers, architects and the like. Certainly not Civil Servants as understood by joe public, anyway.

Still, I'd like to know what the actual question was that this nameless Impact rep was responding to.

dvpower

EF wrote: »

Public service jobs are filled through open competitions so they are available to quite a lot of people.

But only at a limited set of levels. As I've said above, in general, you can only join at the bottom of your level. The private sector is far more open.

EF wrote: »

21 days holidays for me is about average.

which for many civil servants at least can be augmented by up to 18 flexi days. I accept that this is worked time, but still pretty handy to be able to work an extra 1/2 hour a day and take this as days off.

EF wrote: »

If I work more than my agreed hours I get flexi time off, max 1.5 days a month.

In many public sector jobs you get nothing for extra time worked or you have some ad-hoc deal. It is generally accepted that you will work more than your contracted hours.

EF wrote: »

Paid over-time is a very rare event.

I've heard tales about paid overtime, but haven't personally experienced it.

EF wrote: »

My pension will be well funded by me once the levy kicks in.

My personal pension was well funded by me, but I'm afraid to look at it now.

EF wrote: »

I got bonuses in the private sector, never in the public sector.

Fair enough.

EF wrote: »

What public sector worker would risk taking out a mortgage now with the focus of cuts to be on public sector pay?

What bank would risk giving a mortgage to someone who isn't a public sector worker?

EF wrote: »

There must be enough potential tax revenue and jobs locked up in the empty properties around the country to get this economy back on its feet.

We can only hope. I'm off to troll on the "Should we introduce a property tax on second properties?" thread

iseethelight

pete wrote: »

Impact represent the "professional grades" - engineers, architects and the like. Certainly not Civil Servants as understood by joe public, anyway.

Still, I'd like to know what the actual question was that this nameless Impact rep was responding to.

Yes I'd like to know that.I feel the unions are making a shocking job of representing the normal public sector worker. They need to get some alternative proposals to the table.

pete

ixoy wrote: »

Well then your unions are mis-representing you - why not get on to them because these are the sort of words and phrases that appear in press releases, in the paper, and on the news. They're doing you no favours if they're persisting this image of civil servants being well paid, especially given how the divide has broadened.
Also, I believe APs can reach that salary and HEOs, after years of service, wouldn't be too far off.

Some civil servants are well paid. Nobody's denying this. And, similarly, some aren't.

But IMPACT - the subject of this thread - are a broad public service union, rather than a civil service union.

On a Civil Service union scale:

CPSU members (COs & SOs)are generally low to OK paid
PSEU (EOs, HEOs & AOs) members range from OK to well paid
AHCPS (APOs & POs) members are well paid

It's all relative depending on which union is making the statements.

Sticking with a PSEU grade, the post-1995* HEO salary starts at €49k, rising to a max of €62K after 12 years. A very, very small number of HEOs would be on the higher scale (a sort of merit based non-promotion), the max of which is €64k after 8 years. The last two points on the standard HEO scale are 'long service increments' which are paid after 3 and 6 years. These don't exist on the higher scale.

I know that civil service grades can be pretty meaningless to outsiders looking to make comparisons, but I've worked in different sections over the years where single HEOs had no staff, 2 staff, 4 staff and 55+ staff.



* PRSI contributions increased for anyone recruited to the CS after 1995 and the salary scales were adjusted upwards to reflect this. Pre-1995 recruits are paid less, but don't pay a full A contribution so don't get the dental, optical, unemployment benefits etc. Lose-lose.

dvpower

pete wrote: »

Flexi time is effectively free overtime for the employer. You work an extra 10.5 hours over a 4 week period, you can take the 10.5 hours over the following 4 week period. What's wrong with that?

Hardly free overtime since the time is taken off later. More like time in lieu.

As I understand it, it's entirely up to the employee if they want to avail of it or not. So its a perk, and a sweet one at that.

Schuhart

L.R. Weizel wrote: »

My Dad is retired and my Mum is a public servant earning much less than 60K. They need the money to fix up the house. I'm sorry but I think you're completely out of touch, my mother is a modest worker and is taking a huge cut in her wages.

Well, in a situation where the Government is borrowing one third of everything it spends (including your mum's salary) I think its fair to ask who is out of touch with what.

iseethelight wrote: »

Impact don't represent the lower paid Civil/Public Servants the CPSU do listen to what they have to say.

Why, are the CPSU saying that their members get a 30% premium over private sector equivalents, while Impact's members merely get a 10% premium?

I feel more reliable information might come from the ESRI

THE PAY premium enjoyed by public sector workers should - as a matter of urgency - be put on the agenda for discussion between the Government and the social partners in light of the recession, Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) researchers say in the organisation's new quarterly report.

Conservative estimates suggest that the pay of senior public servants was more than 10 per cent ahead of their private sector counterparts in 2006, while public servants on the lowest grades earned a premium in excess of 30 per cent.

According to researchers Elish Kelly, Séamus McGuinness and Philip O'Connell, the extent of the gap between public and private sector pay in Ireland is "far higher" than in many other countries. The average wage advantage increased to 20 per cent in 2006 from less than 10 per cent in 2003 thanks to several rounds of pay awards, while the pay gap in the rest of Europe rarely exceeds 10 per cent. "This differential would be difficult to justify in normal economic circumstances," they say.

Incidently, I've seen some try to mistakenly suggest that the ESRI study didn't take account of different education levels. In fact, as they say on page 12 of their report,

By adopting a multivariate estimation strategy, we can assess the extent to which higher earnings in the public sector go beyond the level that can be attributed to characteristic effects i.e. the framework allows us to accurately estimate the extent of any public sector wage premium, controlling for differences in educational levels, work experience and so on.

Now, let me stress, I'm not suggesting for a moment that public sector workers need to hang their heads in shame. Clearly, these jobs are open to whomever wishes to apply for them.

All I'm really saying is:
1) if the Government is borrowing one third of its budget, then it needs to cut back. So either we have fewer public servants or lower paid public servants, or a bit of both.

2) Public sector workers are quite well paid by comparison to the private sector. Hence, it seems reasonable to cut pay.

3) Junior public servants are relatively better paid by comparison to the private sector than senior public servants. Therefore, there is no particular reason to cut the pay of junior public servants by less.

pete

dvpower wrote: »

Hardly free overtime since the time is taken off later. More like time in lieu.

It's extra hours worked over and above the contracted amount, and at no cost to the employer. Ergo, free

As I understand it, it's entirely up to the employee if they want to avail of it or not. So its a perk, and a sweet one at that.

Working an extra day this month so you can take a day off next month? Oh yeah, that's a real swish perk alright.

pete

just on that ESRI survey - so a CO starting on €24,397 is being paid about €5,500 (i.e. 30%) too much? What's the comparable job in the private sector?

K-9

iseethelight wrote: »

Impact don't represent the lower paid Civil/Public Servants the CPSU do listen to what they have to say.

Indeed. I think even FF have said they are open to changes here.

Nobody is saying there aren't Civil Servants on 25k, same as 30% of the Private Sector.

Tbh, I can see FF compromising on this and looking good to the lower paid/Working class vote.

K-9

pete wrote: »

just on that ESRI survey - so a CO starting on €24,397 is being paid about €5,500 (i.e. 30%) too much? What's the comparable job in the private sector?

Good question. I suppose you'd need to add on the Pension calculation, about 15% and rising and job security if permanent.

What is it comparable to? What exactly does a CO do?

Firetrap

pete wrote: »

just on that ESRI survey - so a CO starting on €24,397 is being paid about €5,500 (i.e. 30%) too much? What's the comparable job in the private sector?

Bog standard secretaries?

Scofflaw

pete wrote: »

It's extra hours worked over and above the contracted amount, and at no cost to the employer. Ergo, free

Working an extra day this month so you can take a day off next month? Oh yeah, that's a real swish perk alright.

Still better than working an extra day this month and again next month, with no time off in lieu at all...also, they have to "repay" you the day. Ergo, not free.

cordially,
Scofflaw

thomasj

dvpower wrote: »

The problem with the public sector (CS in particular) is that its very difficult to move in and out. Someone who has 5 years experience in administration can't join as a Clerical Officer on point 5. A project manager with 5 years experience can't just join as an HEO half way up the scale. If you want to get into the public service, you generally have to join at a few predefined points, so it's practically closed to many people.



I'd have little sympathy for some complaining about their lack of pension if they haven't sorted one out. But I have great sympathy for those (of us) that have been paying large chunks of our salary into personal pension schemes only to see this going down the tubes. If I could pay an extra 9% to convert my defined contribution pension into a defined benefits one, I would in a heartbeat.




Worst of both worlds; not getting the benefits but still paying the price.



Fair enough, but the people most at risk of losing their jobs now aren't those who have been getting the big perks.

... and lets not talk about the flexi time, the privilege days, the half day xmas shopping (is that still going?), the time off to travel home for xmas (I presume that one's gone by now?)

I do agree with regards to the pension aspect, it was unfair. What makes me wonder though is with all the goings on in the banking sector etc could this major loss have been avoided?

Ok regarding the public service perks you got me there!! (time off to travel home is gone not sure what else) each in it own we were not allowed to be seen to go out and social occasions if we did we paid for it ourselves the same with the bonus.

with regards to the co ive been a co for 6 years am currently on just over 30k a year gross (26k net)

pete

Scofflaw wrote: »

Still better than working an extra day this month and again next month, with no time off in lieu at all...

yeah it's also better than having your fingernails pulled out. what's your point?

also, they have to "repay" you the day. Ergo, not free.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It doesn't cost anybody anything. It's flexibility - nothing more, nothing less. Zero cost all round.

pete

K-9 wrote: »

Good question. I suppose you'd need to add on the Pension calculation, about 15% and rising and job security if permanent.

So about €21,500? (technically a CO on the first two points of the scale has no job security since they're on probation)

edit: Actually I'm basing that figure on the assumption that the ESRI's "30% premium" means they're being paid 130% of what they should be. If you were to say that they should only get 70% of what they're on now then that works out €17,078. Or €19,640 if we include your assumption of 15% for pension, but not including the new pension levy they'll soon be hit with. Worth bearing in mind that the last round of benchmarking suppressed salaries by 12% because of these pension entitlements, so your 15% is a double hit.

What is it comparable to? What exactly does a CO do?

As little as possible, ho ho ho.

The Clerical Officer position is the first step into an exciting career in the Civil Service.

Clerical Officers work in all departments in Ireland, providing vital input to the team through a range of general office duties. Promotional opportunities are available to all Clerical Officers when they are made permanent. Clerical Officers need a good general standard of education and a customer focused attitude.

It used to be the basic paper shuffling, form filling, data entry stuff, but they're also the people on social welfare or tax office counters. There are also COs doing IT helpdesk support (and i'm not talking the CO IT grades here - just regular COs) and other more specialised work.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

otwb wrote: »

Are these the same teachers that get a €5k allowance for having a degree and can earn over 60k for the same job they were paid a 35k starting salary for just for hanging on in there for 20 years or so?

...35k starting salary for nine months work a year ain't that bad...

This all smells like sour grapes. 10 years ago IT "specialists" etc were bragging about starting salaries that would put most teachers wages in the shade.
€60k after 25 years is more like it for primary teachers and I'd hardly call that OTT.
Comparing IT to COs to Teachers it's all bull. Everyone is a legend in their own minds and everybody else is getting overpaid for doing sweet FA.:rolleyes:

ixoy

pete wrote: »

yeah it's also better than having your fingernails pulled out. what's your point?

Oh come on - it's a good bit more decent than that. If you worked an extra half hour a day, you could then, after three weeks, take an extra day off. That is a nice perk, especially given that there's plenty in the private sector who would get no pay nor extra time off for their overtime - now that is free overtime.

pete

so we're classifying being treated fairly as a perk now?

ParkRunner

dvpower wrote: »

But only at a limited set of levels. As I've said above, in general, you can only join at the bottom of your level. The private sector is far more open.



which for many civil servants at least can be augmented by up to 18 flexi days. I accept that this is worked time, but still pretty handy to be able to work an extra 1/2 hour a day and take this as days off.


In many public sector jobs you get nothing for extra time worked or you have some ad-hoc deal. It is generally accepted that you will work more than your contracted hours.



I've heard tales about paid overtime, but haven't personally experienced it.



My personal pension was well funded by me, but I'm afraid to look at it now.



Fair enough.



What bank would risk giving a mortgage to someone who isn't a public sector worker?


We can only hope. I'm off to troll on the "Should we introduce a property tax on second properties?" thread

Yes, if you want to join the public service, you generally have to start at the bottom and work your way up. I entered the public service in 2006 having worked in the private sector since 1999. I joined as a CO on low pay and am working my way up the ladder. Short term pain for long time gain.

There are perks in the public sector but there seems to be a wide disparity in perks available in the private sector..going from no paid overtime, poor pensions, no work-life balance arrangements to supplied company car, free gym membership, free health insurance, christmas/project bonuses, corporate box tickets for events, team building trips away etc..

So it seems no one can still get a mortgage. The banks, the developers and the government hold the key to stabilising of this economy, let's hope it is sorted soon so we can move onto the next pro-treaty/anti-treaty, Roy Keane and Saipan, public sector v private sector, Stephen Ireland for Ireland debate as this one is well covered.

ixoy

pete wrote: »

so we're classifying being treated fairly as a perk now?

We're talking about its impelementation being quite nicely done - you work a few extra hours over a couple of weeks and then you can have a long weekend, without having to touch your holiday balance. That great flexibility is a perk - no it's not for nothing, but you often wouldn't find such an option in the private sector to build up to 18 extra days off for doing a bit of overtime.

grahamo

ixoy wrote: »

We're talking about its impelementation being quite nicely done - you work a few extra hours over a couple of weeks and then you can have a long weekend, without having to touch your holiday balance. That great flexibility is a perk - no it's not for nothing, but you often wouldn't find such an option in the private sector to build up to 18 extra days off for doing a bit of overtime.

How is being on flexitime a perk? I think some of the young people on here are seriously jealous because people in the public sector are treated fairly and lawfully. You do realise that people have to be in the workforce years to reach the top of their scales and gain any seniority in their workplace. What I've seen over the last 10-15 years are people coming into the workforce (Whether it be public or private sector, I've worked in both) straight from college expecting to start on the top of the scale. The fact they begrudge whatever pay & conditions people that have been in the workforce longer than them have shows a total lack of life experience.
As for stuff like time off to travel home or Christmas shopping time??? Have a day off will youse! Some posters on here are making this stuff up as they go along
The hours have been worked,you are then owed those hours, why should you have to touch your annual leave when you've worked up the hours???

Mr. Presentable

ixoy wrote: »

We're talking about its impelementation being quite nicely done - you work a few extra hours over a couple of weeks and then you can have a long weekend, without having to touch your holiday balance. That great flexibility is a perk - no it's not for nothing, but you often wouldn't find such an option in the private sector to build up to 18 extra days off for doing a bit of overtime.

It's all about the language you use really, isn't it?

If I work in a factory and do enough hours over the year for 18 days, that would be overtime at 150%. If I am a Civil Servant I get it as time off at 100%. Yes it is a flexible solution, yes it is good to have, but no, it is not a "perk" - the hours have been worked. It is also worth noting that there are rules for flexible working also - how much you can accrue, how long you can carry the hours, when you can accrue hours (usually early in the morning or late in the evening) during the day.

It is worth noting also, that flexible hours exists outside of the CS and HSE. It is becoming more common in industry also as a means of allowing staff with long commutes to work earlier in the day and leave earlier to avoid traffic, for example.

molloyjh

Terrance Zealous Snowmobile wrote: »

One of my colleagues who was laid off last week (along with 300 others in the company) mentioned in passing that with his degree in computer science and 10 years experience he was on €43K.

Speaking as someone with an IT degree and just about 10 years experience (4 of that done while earning my degree so not particularly relevant to it) I left the private sector last year on slightly over what your friend was on and have recently been spoken to regarding a number of other private sector jobs for well over 50k. And that was after spending about 6 of those 10 years as a bog standard bank official where the remuneration wasn't exactly up to IT professionals standards too.

There has been plently of money out there over the last number of years and it sounds to me like your friend just didn't make the best of it. I know plenty of people with IT degrees and 7/8 years experience who are on over 60k. Sorry to hear he was laid off (genuinely) but there has been good money to be had in IT over the last 10-15 years and to try and claim there hasn't flies in the face of what many of us know to be true.

Also as Srameen pointed out the < 60k doesn't mean 59k and is all relative to what they are actually referring to, i.e. some of the outlandish claims in papers and on boards about civil service salaries.

molloyjh

ixoy wrote: »

Oh come on - it's a good bit more decent than that. If you worked an extra half hour a day, you could then, after three weeks, take an extra day off. That is a nice perk, especially given that there's plenty in the private sector who would get no pay nor extra time off for their overtime - now that is free overtime.

That is the terms of their employment. Many areas in the private sector pay overtime and some do flexitime as well as or instead of. It's a bit daft to blame the civil service for individual private companies terms and conditions of employment, especially when its particular to individual companies and not the entire sector. That is begrudgery of the highest order to be honest.

I've worked in 3 different private companies and all have paid overtime at more than the standard rate of pay. In the semi-state organisation I'm in now I don't get paid overtime and instead can build up a limited number of hours that entitles me to at most an extra day every 4 weeks. I get, at best, rewarded with a like for like hour. If I do more than the 1 equivalent days work I get nothing for that additional work at all. So I'm technically worse off for that arrangement even though it is more convenient. You don't see me crying out for the levels or rates of overtime in the private sector to be limited so that they don't have an advantage over me, why should you be allowed to?

thehamo

thehamo wrote: »

I hate everyone lumping teachers in as civil servants! They are not, they are public service not civil servants. Teachers salary start on in the early thirties and takes at least ten years of employment to reach the 40k mark.

I'm a credit controller. When i started work I was on 13k pounds. I've been in this industry for over 13 years... know what the high end wage is in Ireland? 30k-31k... :rolleyes:

I know a serious amount of civil servants on less than 35k too. 60k is not a representative figure for all the lower paid civil servants and I think it is a very bad use of language for Impact to use.

35k is still quite a bit considering the salaries available to most private sector workers not in management. Add in the job security, and pension help, and civil servants come out far ahead of the average worker in the private sector.

IM not saying that these are bad salaries, especially in times like this. However they are not half as extortionate as they are made out to be in a lot of cases.

I believe they are. There is something strange in a country when public sector employees earn quite a bit more than their private sector colleagues..
Civil servants are working less hours than most private sector employees, have more holidays, receive more governmental benefits, and are being paid more.. Don't you find that odd?