Civil Servants on Less than 60K!!

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

35k is still quite a bit considering the salaries available to most private sector workers not in management.

He said less than 35k. In other words he knows a sizable number of people who are on around the same as you or less and you're complaining about that!? You're complaining that what you get isn't enough but yet it is too much for a civil servant. The job security is just a part and parcel of the nature of that sector which you are just as entitled to work in but chose not to. And the pension thing could be seen as a reward for service to the State IMO. Why not!? Especially seeing as many in the public sector do not get bonuses while many in the private sector do.

I can't stand this attitude so many people have where they are pointing their fingers at so many other people. Private sector and public sector are different by nature. There are pro's and cons to both and we all make a call at various times as to where we want to go for employment. Neither side should be held entirely accountable for the mess we're in and neither side should be treated any differently. At the end of the day, top level management aside, we're all in the same boat together. Why is it we have to turn on one another and begrudge and blame each other the whole time. It's tired, stale and old. Give it a rest. It's time for more positive and constructive input.

population

Having worked in the private sector my entire working life, I have never bumped into anyone who left a public service role to take up a private sector role. I am sure at the top where the money is lala in both sectors it happens a fair bit but on my level, earning 30k I just dont see it.

Why? Because public sector workers have a much better deal with pay pensions and working conditions. I met a guy I used to work with the other night who quit a few years ago to join the fire service. All his firemen mates were complaining about the levy. I asked him what he thought and he just smiled and said out straight that these people had no idea of the real world.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

He said less than 35k. In other words he knows a sizable number of people who are on around the same as you or less and you're complaining about that!? You're complaining that what you get isn't enough but yet it is too much for a civil servant. The job security is just a part and parcel of the nature of that sector which you are just as entitled to work in but chose not to. And the pension thing could be seen as a reward for service to the State IMO. Why not!? Especially seeing as many in the public sector do not get bonuses while many in the private sector do.

I can't stand this attitude so many people have where they are pointing their fingers at so many other people. Private sector and public sector are different by nature. There are pro's and cons to both and we all make a call at various times as to where we want to go for employment. Neither side should be held entirely accountable for the mess we're in and neither side should be treated any differently. At the end of the day, top level management aside, we're all in the same boat together. Why is it we have to turn on one another and begrudge and blame each other the whole time. It's tired, stale and old. Give it a rest. It's time for more positive and constructive input.

I stand corrected.

Dannyboy83

Terrance Zealous Snowmobile wrote: »

Anybody see the Impact union rep on Saturday stating that ""despite the public perception most civil servants aren't well paid and are on less than €60K"".

That to me shows the bubble they are living in when they think a salary of 60K is not well paid.

One of my colleagues who was laid off last week (along with 300 others in the company) mentioned in passing that with his degree in computer science and 10 years experience he was on €43K.

I have not been laid off yet but with my Engineering Degree and my almost 20 years experience in the private sector I too am on less than 60K, but I consider myself well paid.

Another key difference is that I have no job security.

Incidentally my family has also taken a pay cut with my wife being laid off. She too has an IT degree and was also paid much less than 60K.

I have a degree in computer science and 5 years "industrial" experience, and I would consider myself rich if I was making €43K.
I had a post on this the other day, none of my buddies from college are even hitting the 35k mark.

Now I understand why my father always wanted me to go into the civil service!:eek:


On the other hand, I did do an exam for a computer's position in the civil service, i.e. 1 position.
The exam was in croke park.
There were approx 300 people, of every colour and creed.
Savage competition.


I generally advise people not to go into computing and science unless they adore it, the money isn't here unless you're in management.

I should have become a security guard in UCC.:)
Big bucks

mountainyman

Schuhart wrote: »

The best paid public servants seem to be Prison Officers and Gardaí. Tbh, in the case of Prison Officers especially, I'd say that's understandable.

Prison Officers are disposable. Sack the lot and replace with them with Moroccans at 2 euro an hour. I don't care how stressful the job is they are disposable.

grahamo

population wrote: »

Having worked in the private sector my entire working life, I have never bumped into anyone who left a public service role to take up a private sector role. I am sure at the top where the money is lala in both sectors it happens a fair bit but on my level, earning 30k I just dont see it.

Why? Because public sector workers have a much better deal with pay pensions and working conditions. I met a guy I used to work with the other night who quit a few years ago to join the fire service. All his firemen mates were complaining about the levy. I asked him what he thought and he just smiled and said out straight that these people had no idea of the real world.

I'd agree that the lower public sector grades are better paid than some corresponding private sector jobs. Lets face it a lot of employers only pay minimum wage or slightly above. However, there are many many different public sector jobs, everything from road sweeper to pathologist and many of thes jobs would pay better in the private sector. For a lot of people the public sector is the only area where you have any chance of getting good pay & conditions & I don't blame them for that.
At the same time the highly qualified and professionals can certainly earn more in the private sector.
I've worked in the public sector for the last 10 years (after 16 years in the private sector) and a lot of the lads I've worked with have left for better paid jobs or to start their own business and done very well for themselves.

jim o doom

The Corinthian wrote: »

What are your hours?
Do you get overtime? What rate? How much generally?
How many holidays do you get?
How's the pension plan?
Can you lose your job?

I ask these things because you would then need to compare this against someone in the private sector. I have never gotten overtime, unless I negotiated (blackmailed) it. My hours have consistently been over 40 per week, probably averaging out at around 44 during a non-deadline period. Other than public holidays, I have always gotten no more than 21 days per year. I have only ever received once any kind of pension contribution from any employer - I get no pension from work. And I've been made redundant on one occasion.

Let me know how you compare.

My hours; five days a week 36 hours (so about 4 under your hourse)

I don't get overtime, never have, never will - don't have it in my section.

20 days holidays a year

dunno about the pension plan - I am paying it (against my will) as I plan to move abroad in a few years, so its money DOWN THE JACKS really isn't it?

My job security is quite good however, which I am eternally thankful for.

All the above answers reflect most of my colleagues in the tax office I work in (although the PAYE staff do get over time, nobody else does). I earn 26k, of which they want to take 1.5k. This is over the top, I earned the same wage roughly for similar hours and everything else in the private sector, but I had more days off in the private sector (but no flexi time or job security).

It's all good and well to say "the public wage bill is too high" - Yes it is - for pretty much ANY management whatsoever, from the lowest to the highest they make SIGNIFICANTLY more than one of the largest parts of the civil service, the clerical officers, who earn sweet feck all for a normal job.

As you can see my work situation is VERY similar to yours - yet my bosses have much better retirement plans, wages, holidays, entitlements, travel allowances for work - the strike is very simple. It's about the lowest paid being WALKED on - and guess what, NONE of us are going to take it.
I'll certainly be bugg€red if I am going to have an unfair amount of my wage taken, when the bosses are STILL swanning around with cash shooting out of their collective rectums.

grahamo

mountainyman wrote: »

Prison Officers are disposable. Sack the lot and replace with them with Moroccans at 2 euro an hour. I don't care how stressful the job is they are disposable.

Only a student would post something like this:rolleyes:

Dannyboy83

mountainyman wrote: »

Prison Officers are disposable. Sack the lot and replace with them with Moroccans at 2 euro an hour. I don't care how stressful the job is they are disposable.

Having worked in nightclub security for years, I can tell you with 100% reliability that there are many qualified Polish Prison officers working in the nightclubs here.

The problem is that when we start this game, where do we stop?
I don't want some Indian chap from Bangalore TC coming over to take my job either.

Also, do moroccans have a vested interest in Ireland?
Will they smuggle phones, drugs and take cuts if they're planning to go home in 4 years anyway?

Dannyboy83

jim o doom wrote: »

My hours; five days a week 36 hours (so about 4 under your hourse)

I don't get overtime, never have, never will - don't have it in my section.

20 days holidays a year

dunno about the pension plan - I am paying it (against my will) as I plan to move abroad in a few years, so its money DOWN THE JACKS really isn't it?

My job security is quite good however, which I am eternally thankful for.

All the above answers reflect most of my colleagues in the tax office I work in (although the PAYE staff do get over time, nobody else does). I earn 26k, of which they want to take 1.5k. This is over the top, I earned the same wage roughly for similar hours and everything else in the private sector, but I had more days off in the private sector (but no flexi time or job security).

It's all good and well to say "the public wage bill is too high" - Yes it is - for pretty much ANY management whatsoever, from the lowest to the highest they make SIGNIFICANTLY more than one of the largest parts of the civil service, the clerical officers, who earn sweet feck all for a normal job.

As you can see my work situation is VERY similar to yours - yet my bosses have much better retirement plans, wages, holidays, entitlements, travel allowances for work - the strike is very simple. It's about the lowest paid being WALKED on - and guess what, NONE of us are going to take it.
I'll certainly be bugg€red if I am going to have an unfair amount of my wage taken, when the bosses are STILL swanning around with cash shooting out of their collective rectums.

A senior person I know in the civil service has admitted to precisely the same thing as what you have just written.
Top dogs are cleaning up ridiculously, while the grunts are just as shafted as the private sector.

BTW, if you're in your pension less than 3 years, you should be able to cash it in, although you will pay 20% tax on it at your present income level.

dvpower

molloyjh wrote: »

I can't stand this attitude so many people have where they are pointing their fingers at so many other people. Private sector and public sector are different by nature. There are pro's and cons to both and we all make a call at various times as to where we want to go for employment.

This is precisely why people point fingers. The public sector is largely closed off to most public sector workers, while public sector workers can choose an any time to move into the private sector.

The public sector (and its customers) would benefit if there was much more movement in and out of it.

dvpower

grahamo wrote: »

Only a student would post something like this:rolleyes:

In fairness, he is a mountainyman who lives on a boat.

mountainyman

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I have a degree in computer science and 5 years "industrial" experience, and I would consider myself rich if I was making €43K.

What do you think a 27 year old employed as a computer programmer with a primary degree only should be paid? I guarantee there are not many 27 year olds in the civil service earning 43K.

molloyjh

dvpower wrote: »

This is precisely why people point fingers. The public sector is largely closed off to most public sector workers, while public sector workers can choose an any time to move into the private sector.

The public sector (and its customers) would benefit if there was much more movement in and out of it.

I moved into a public sector job from the private sector about 10 months ago just as easily and readily as I could move into or around the private sector. Just because the jobs don't appear on irishjobs or some such doesn't mean they aren't there or you can't apply for them. Like any organisation though the jobs are open to internal applicants and internal applicants almost always have the advantage.

mountainyman

grahamo wrote: »

Only a student would post something like this:rolleyes:

I'm not a student. A prison officer should should live in council house.

mountainyman

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Will they smuggle phones, drugs and take cuts if they're planning to go home in 4 years anyway?

No change from now then except we won't be overpaying a bunch of knackers. 99% of prison officers are people I wouldn't allow on the upper deck even yp clean it.

molloyjh

mountainyman wrote: »

I'm not a student. A prison officer should should live in council house.

Why!? That's the most ludicrous statement I think I've ever read on boards!?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I have a degree in computer science and 5 years "industrial" experience, and I would consider myself rich if I was making €43K.
On the other hand, I did do an exam for a computer's position in the civil service, i.e. 1 position.
The exam was in croke park.
There were approx 300 people, of every colour and creed.
Savage competition.

Have we lost the run of ourselves? A primary degree and only 5 years experience and you are complaining. 5 years is nothing. I know people with 30 years experience who would jump at the chance of €43k. 300 for one job? Back in 1978 I applied for a job and was called to exams that 2200 sat with 2 positions available. (Starting Salary was IR£2,184 per annum BTW)Then there were all those not called to exam. I feel you all need to get some perspective and stop this assumption that everybody else is earning more than us and doing less work with less qualifications. We're getting at each others' throats over it. 10 to 15 years ago the IT guys bragged about the huge starting salaries but the rest of the workforce, while jealous, didn't openly moan about it. Things have changed and perhaps the slow and steady Public Sector are coming out on top at the moment - more power to them they did lose out a lot during the bubble. The bankers made huge bonuses (at all levels) for years and it's gone for now. We could pick and choose where we worked and now we're chasing jobs. Some of us made the most of the boom to have a good standard of living and spend spend spend; others took the opportunity to lay down foundations for the future. We made our choices why now knock others who did differently to us?

molloyjh

Giovanna Prehistoric Crane wrote: »

Have we lost the run of ourselves? A primary degree and only 5 years experience and you are complaining. 5 years is nothing. I know people with 30 years experience who would jump at the chance of €43k. 300 for one job? Back in 1978 I applied for a job and was called to exams that 2200 sat with 2 positions available. (Starting Salary was IR£2,184 per annum BTW)Then there were all those not called to exam. I feel you all need to get some perspective and stop this assumption that everybody else is earning more than us and doing less work with less qualifications. We're getting at each others' throats over it. 10 to 15 years ago the IT guys bragged about the huge starting salaries but the rest of the workforce, while jealous, didn't openly moan about it. Things have changed and perhaps the slow and steady Public Sector are coming out on top at the moment - more power to them they did lose out a lot during the bubble. The bankers make huge bonuses (at all levels) for years and it's gone for now. We could pick and choose where we worked and now we're chasing jobs. Some of us made the most of the boom to have a good standard of living and spend spend spend; others took the opportunity to lay down foundations for the future. We made our choices why now knock others who did differently to us?

Giovanna Prehistoric Crane has a point. Too many of us have all of our experience in the boom times and are evaluating the entire scenario from a skewed position. A bit of perspective wouldn't go astray.

warrenaldo

I have a computer science degree and was working in a company for 3 years - earning about 38k. I left and took an 6k pay cut to join the civil service 2 years ago.

Since I joined, I see that some people in here are on salaries which I believe they do not merit. It seems as though people got promotions very easily through the boom times and now sit pretty in high up jobs - which would not have happened in the private sector. Now I am not saying that all civil servants dont merit their salary, as there are many who earn their salary and deserve to be paid it but I see a good bit that dont also.

Job security was my reason for joining the civil service and taking a pay cut.

yoshytoshy

There was never the amount of public service jobs as there is now.
No one can compare anything to what is happening now ,it never happened before. The government chose to make ireland look good ,by increasing it's own worforce and lowering unemployment.
It was a lazy thing to do and it has backfired.

mountainyman

molloyjh wrote: »

Why!? That's the most ludicrous statement I think I've ever read on boards!?

It is a completely unskilled stereotypically working class job. Anyone could do it, it requires less skill than a bus driver or a ditch digger. Someone has to be poorly paid and prison officers by any reasonable measure should be poorly paid.

[1] The skill required to do the jobs
[2] The intellectual ability needed to do the job
[3] The need to attract 'the right people'

[1] No skill is required to be a prison officer
[2] No intellectual ability is needed
[3] We do not have the right people as can be seen by the sleveenism of the prison service as whole, the crimnal conduct of a minority and the simple fact that only an underclass type person would become a prison officer.

Cut their wages by 70% if they don't like it sack them.

thomasj

Nonsense i don't where i saw this report but public service employment numbers are down from 10 years ago at least

K-9

pete wrote: »

So about €21,500? (technically a CO on the first two points of the scale has no job security since they're on probation)

edit: Actually I'm basing that figure on the assumption that the ESRI's "30% premium" means they're being paid 130% of what they should be. If you were to say that they should only get 70% of what they're on now then that works out €17,078. Or €19,640 if we include your assumption of 15% for pension, but not including the new pension levy they'll soon be hit with. Worth bearing in mind that the last round of benchmarking suppressed salaries by 12% because of these pension entitlements, so your 15% is a double hit.

The pay figure would be €18,766, the €24,397 is 130%, not 100%. Maths may not be your strong point!

Add on the 15% for the pension, though remember this value is increasing, we get €21,581.

The pension entitlement was factored into the 130% AFAIK.

K-9

thomasj wrote: »

Nonsense i don't where i saw this report but public service employment numbers are down from 10 years ago at least

Jaysus, you are talking nonsense.

Why do you think the pay bill is a problem?

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/slash-public-sector-pay-to-allow-tax-cuts-1542330.html

jim o doom

dvpower wrote: »

The public sector (and its customers) would benefit if there was much more movement in and out of it.

NO actually, not in all sectors; in a tax sector take VAT, or any other major tax - it takes a significant amount of training to get the basics of said tax (for someone who hasn't done taxation in college, which I certainly didn't) - and then a lot of on the job experience to learn all the ins and outs of ANY tax.

If a person who has a lot of experience in that tax leaves a section - that section is losing "experience" and someone must be trained to make the difference up. If there was a lot of movement, no one would fully understand what legislation was important (not to mention that legislation changes regularily). Despite the job being low paid, it isn't as simple as sitting at a screen drooling into your lap - you actually need to know and understand what you are doing.

How would a high turnaround of staff in an area like that help at all, what soever? It simply wouldn't.

pete

K-9 wrote: »

The pay figure would be €18,766, the €24,397 is 130%, not 100%. Maths may not be your strong point!

Reading comprehension may not be yours!

Add on the 15% for the pension, though remember this value is increasing, we get €21,581.

Or about €21.5K. Like I said, I've included your 15% pension assumption.

I gave two figures - ((salary / 130 )x 100) + 15% vs ((salary / 100) * 70) + 15%

The pension entitlement was factored into the 130% AFAIK.

Don't think so, but 12% was assumed in the last round of benchmarking to allow for its benefit.

thomasj

K-9 wrote: »

Jaysus, you are talking nonsense.

Why do you think the pay bill is a problem?

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/slash-public-sector-pay-to-allow-tax-cuts-1542330.html

The point made was

There was never the amount of public service jobs as there is now.
No one can compare anything to what is happening now ,it never happened before. The government chose to make ireland look good ,by increasing it's own worforce and lowering unemployment.
It was a lazy thing to do and it has backfired.

I responded with

Nonsense i don't where i saw this report but public service employment numbers are down from 10 years ago at least

Heres a slightly more reliable source than the herald!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0909/1220629652929.html

and that "government policy therefore has actually decreased the total number of public sector employees as a percentage of the labour force and decreased the overall public sector wage bill as a percentage of GDP".

This was last september bear in mind that since last january there has been a recruitment freeze in the public sector, retired folk not being replaced and a pay freeze as well

ParkRunner

dvpower wrote: »

This is precisely why people point fingers. The public sector is largely closed off to most public sector workers, while public sector workers can choose an any time to move into the private sector.

The public sector (and its customers) would benefit if there was much more movement in and out of it.

In the last 3 years I have worked in three different Govt Departments, the first two were temporary contracts before finally getting a permanent contract, subject to probation. I was also offered a job with the HSE (thank god I didn't take it). All this while looking for an apprenticeship (solicitor) in the private sector, which are extremely tough to get (thank god I didn't get one in hindsight). If you really wanted a public sector job in the last 5 years I think there were great opportunities there. Yes you probably would have to have taken a pay cut at the start but that's life

jim o doom

mountainyman wrote: »

blah blah loads of rubbishCut their wages by 70% if they don't like it sack them.

Of course - but regardless of how "unskilled" the job is - there is the simple factor of DANGER, is there not? All criminals are not tax evaders, or non payers of their tv licence. In fact plenty of them are dangerous, in there for assault, murder & whatever else.


The simple fact of it is that working in a prison is DANGEROUS and any money they get is representative of that.


And if the government really were foolish enough to "fire" any section of the public service for being unwilling to take an INSANE cut in their wages, when they do an already dangerous job & hire in whoever it is you personally seem to think fit to do the job, there would be a MAJOR uprising, certainly in the public service, but I would like to think in the private world as well, because the prisons keep all of US safe from those interred within, servant of the public or private business service regardless.