Do you consider yourselves Brainwashed?

book smarts

Nothing against any religion, this is about it's relation to human nature and psychology.

It is a well known fact that if someone is told something repeatedly, or tells themselves something in their own head repeatedly, they will eventually believe that to be the truth, even if it isn't. Can you not see this?

Also, if I said I believed in a flying teapot that circled the earth, and was the creator of everything etc, would you not think I wasn't thinking logically? Yet, if I said it was written in some old book and was therefore an absolute unquestionable truth, because I had been told repeatedly by elders in my community that it was unquestionable, would you again not think I wasn't thinking properly?

I understand that community pressure is very great, and elders are respected and listened to, but does that mean they are right? They are human beings, can't they be wrong? Can you not recognise areas of your life where you thought one thing at one time (like you liked Man Utd for example), and then years later you realised, what was I thinking? (you now like Liverpool). But at the time you thought you would always like Man Utd.

I'm wondering do you see any characteristics of brainwashing in what you believe? This is not an attack on anyones beliefs. These are genuine questions. Mods please dont ban, delete or move this. There's nothing offensive in this.

hivizman

I thought that you might have posted this on the Christianity forum as well, but it seems not.

Isn't the question you ask problematic? If someone has been successfully "brainwashed", surely they will consider that they do what they do and think what they think because that is what they have chosen (or perhaps they simply don't think of an alternative). So anyone who answers "yes" to the question "do you consider yourself brainwashed?" can't be brainwashed.

This doesn't imply that anyone who answers "no" must be brainwashed - they could have chosen what they believe and do through a careful and sincere process of reflection. We might not agree with their choices, but we should be able to follow their thought processes. Of course, many people adopt beliefs and practices unreflectingly, following others in their community, or under the influence of persuasive advocates of particular ways of life, but is it appropriate to describe this as "brainwashing"?

I know that some people metaphorically "reach for their gun" when Wikipedia is cited, but the article on brainwashing seems to be reasonably well-balanced. This article questions the concept of "brainwashing" as usually understood. It points out that there can be settings in which physical and psychological pressures can act as strong forces directing people towards certain beliefs and actions, but I get the sense that such pressures would arise in situations where many people would be uneasy in using the term "brainwashing", though others would certainly do so - I'm thinking of something like army basic training here. I would say that some of the contributors to the Wikipedia article would compare army basic training, in terms of the way in which recruits are removed from normal social interaction, kept intensely busy with ritualistic activities, and encouraged to think what their trainers want them to think, with the activities of various religious cults. So "brainwashing" is simply a pejorative term for the process by which someone comes to hold strong views that you dislike.

Jannah

I love the way people post things like this with such a condescending tone while all the while their main message is 'I don't mean to offend you BUT you're a complete idiot'

book smarts wrote: »

Nothing against any religion, this is about it's relation to human nature and psychology.

Well, obviously you do have something against religion, seeing as how you felt so strongly against it to decide that it wasn't enough for you to have the opinion that it's nonsense which we are brainwashed with, but you wanted other people to think it too with your "Can you not see this?" and "I'm wondering do you see any characteristics of brainwashing in what you believe?" so don't even try to give the illusion that you're coming into this with an impartial stance

book smarts wrote: »

It is a well known fact that if someone is told something repeatedly, or tells themselves something in their own head repeatedly, they will eventually believe that to be the truth, even if it isn't. Can you not see this?

So you're going to completely close off any chance that it is the truth, yes? What you are describing is blind faith and personally I don't feel that it constitutes as faith at all. I believe what I believe because I have done the research on it and feel strongly about it. If you don't feel religion will benefit you in your life- fine, there's no compulsion. At the end of the day, everyone makes their own minds up and nobody knows what is to be of them until it's too late anyway. Cults brainwash- that's specific intensive targeting of people with terrible concequences. Religion shows a certain path and way of life and you can either take it or leave it.

book smarts wrote: »

Also, if I said I believed in a flying teapot that circled the earth, and was the creator of everything etc, would you not think I wasn't thinking logically?

Aha, so we're not thinking logically? Actually, Islam and Catholicism both agree with the theory of the big bang etc, the only difference is that God is seen as the force that spurred it all to happen. Logic differs from person to person and it doens't exactly help that you chose such an obscure 'example'. For instance, I don't think it's particularly logical thinking to allow drinking to be legal when it causes so much hardship, accidents and illness, yet to someone else it is perfectly logical to go drinking every weekend. Who is right? Logical thinking can be objectable at the best of times.

book smarts wrote: »

Yet, if I said it was written in some old book and was therefore an absolute unquestionable truth

If it was the case of it being "some old book" why aren't people getting spiritual guidance from the dead sea scrolls? In fact, I think that is downright disrespectful of you to call a book which people have so much respect for "some old book".

book smarts wrote: »

I understand that community pressure is very great, and elders are respected and listened to, but does that mean they are right? They are human beings, can't they be wrong? Can you not recognise areas of your life where you thought one thing at one time (like you liked Man Utd for example), and then years later you realised, what was I thinking? (you now like Liverpool). But at the time you thought you would always like Man Utd.

At the end of the day religion is a moral influence- Man United isn't. People these days are turning to things like celebrities and the media to influence what they believe as moral instead of religion (make what you will which is the better influence, but I certainly know where I stand).

book smarts wrote: »

I'm wondering do you see any characteristics of brainwashing in what you believe?

I'm pretty sure if someone thought they were being brainwashed, they wouldn't have anything to do with the religion

book smarts wrote: »

This is not an attack on anyones beliefs.

"... I'm just saying that they're about as likely as a flying teapot"

book smarts wrote: »

There's nothing offensive in this.

"... I just think what you believe in is bull**** and you're being brainwashed"

At the end of the day, whether a person is religious or not they still have a duty to do right by their fellow man and if they can't do this, then regardless of their faith, they've failed their purpose on this earth. You shouldn't gloat of your superiority because you don't have a belief and look down on others as being "brainwashed"- you should take the time to see if their religion is a motivation to do good in life, and, if it is, then no organised religion need add or take from that

book smarts

You have done the research on it? Scientific research was it? You have proof that what you believe is true? Or you just assume it is?

You say there's no compulsion? Like in Swat?

Specific intensive targeting? Like kids rocking back and forth and reciting verses for hours on end?

You can either take it or leave it? Not according to some interpretations.

Downright disrespectful? So the book is above question?

Religion is far more than a moral influence.

Drinking causes hardship, accidents and illness, but it also causes much joy, relaxation and fun, so it is quite logical. Hey, I think socially enforced sexual abstinence for virile young men causes hardship, accidents and illness, which doesn't sound logical to me.

They've failed their purpose on this earth? So you know what everyones purpose on earth is to be? I thought they could take it or leave it?

You seem to have some knowledge of psychology and are quite obviously a learned individual. By flattering you just now I am already manipulating you, in an attempt to cool your boots. You may not like me manipulating you, but you can't help it. Another technique used is when you make people feel important. People love to feel important. You are quite obviously an important individual.

This is just to show you how easily people are manipulated on a daily basis. All of us. If you can see the manipulation of a Coca Cola advert or Man Utd., can you not see the other manipulations?

One of the characteristics of brainwashed people is that their belief system becomes their identity, and if you question that belief system, they take it as you attacking their identity, attacking who and what they are, personally. If they have spent their whole life defining themselves by that system, it becomes entrenched in their thought processes.

I suggest you read up on hypnosis, suggestibility, neuro-linguistic programming, and various psychological tricks that have been used throughout history to manipulate the human mind.

ChocolateSauce

Booksmarts, no religious person will think they are brainwashed, and I think you should have realised it's pointless to ask. Further, I don't even think they're all brainwashed. Some are, some aren't. The ones who use logic to come to a conclusion which I happen to think is incorrect are not, the ones who say "god is real because. Just because" are. Of course, try getting them to see that...

book smarts

book smarts wrote: »

Do you consider yourselves brainwashed?

Do you honestly think anyone is going to say "yes actually you're right, I am"?

BuffyBot

Have you been brainwashed into believing what you believe?

It is a well known fact that if someone is told something repeatedly, or tells themselves something in their own head repeatedly, they will eventually believe that to be the truth, even if it isn't.

Fact? Very vague and non-specific for a fact. How many times have you told yourself that, and do you truly believe it?

Jannah

book smarts wrote: »

You have done the research on it? Scientific research was it? You have proof that what you believe is true? Or you just assume it is?

Do you have proof that what I believe is false? I don't assume anything, and while I don't rely on 'scientific' proofs, I was in no way brainwashed- in fact, I researched Islam by myself and received little to no input from others- so how exactly am I brainwashed? Unless I managed to brainwash myself, in which case I would be very interested to hear how that would be conducted?

book smarts wrote: »

You say there's no compulsion? Like in Swat?

Oh don't just take my word on it- see for yourself

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)

book smarts wrote: »

Specific intensive targeting? Like kids rocking back and forth and reciting verses for hours on end?

Because terrorist inspired madrassas are all the rage now :rolleyes: Specific targeting is chosing the vulnerable and forcing them to convert- yet in Islam, to do so would be against the morals of the faith. There is nothing in the qur'an that states people should recite it non stop and rock back and forth

book smarts wrote: »

You can either take it or leave it? Not according to some interpretations.

Do enlighten me. Don't be all talk unless you're willing to back it up with evidence- after all, you do love your facts

book smarts wrote: »

Downright disrespectful? So the book is above question?

Questioning and riducling are two very different things. As I already said, I don't believe in blind faith. I don't feel that someone has true faith in something until they have questioned all areas that they have doubts about and come to a resolution. Mockery is pointless- it's only aim is to prove yourself as being an ignorant elitist who can't accept that others don't agree with your beliefs. I don't care if people believe in something different to me, but they don't have the right to call me brainwashed for holding my beliefs. I could have equally told you that you must be brainwashed by the Godless western media, that you're simply regurgitating Dawkins hysteria blah blah blah, but I respect that others think differently.

book smarts wrote: »

Religion is far more than a moral influence.

Religion is a lifestyle, it is a guide to how we should behave socially and it is contains rites of passage to mark all aspects of our lives- yet in the end all of these link back to its overall moral influence

book smarts wrote: »

Drinking causes hardship, accidents and illness, but it also causes much joy, relaxation and fun, so it is quite logical.

And you think it is okay that the world should endure the hardship, accidents and illnesses associated with drink so that some other people can get a bit of pleasure- even though it is wholly unnecessary and avoidable? The mind boggles.

book smarts wrote: »

Hey, I think socially enforced sexual abstinence for virile young men causes hardship, accidents and illness, which doesn't sound logical to me.

Would you prefer for these 'virile young men' to go around spreading AIDs, STIs, STDs and HPV (causes 90% of cervical cancers) causing huge social problems with teenage and unwanted pregnancies? You can hardly call abstinence 'hardship'- it's called self control and if people weren't so sexualised these days it wouldn't be such an issue. I'm wondering if you've seen the boy (4ft tall, that's all he is) who conceived a child at 12 and is a father at 13, wondering how he will support a child on his pocket money of £10 a week? Don't you ever wonder about the hardship caused there? I don't see how abstinence can possibly cause "accidents and illness" - completely ridiculous.

book smarts wrote: »

They've failed their purpose on this earth? So you know what everyones purpose on earth is to be? I thought they could take it or leave it?

You obviously didn't read my post properly at all. They can take or leave religion, but if your purpose on this earth ISN'T to make some kind of positive contribution to the society you're in, then I really don't know what it is.

book smarts wrote: »

You seem to have some knowledge of psychology and are quite obviously a learned individual. By flattering you just now I am already manipulating you, in an attempt to cool your boots. You may not like me manipulating you, but you can't help it.

And this has what exactly to do with religion? Men manipulate women all the time (they probably wouldn't get laid otherwise). I have never had Islam forced on me so I really don't know how exactly I could be 'brainwashed' into it- if anything, people are being deterred from Islam because of the bad rap it gets in the media.

book smarts wrote: »

One of the characteristics of brainwashed people is that their belief system becomes their identity, and if you question that belief system, they take it as you attacking their identity, attacking who and what they are, personally. If they have spent their whole life defining themselves by that system, it becomes entrenched in their thought processes.

That's ridiculous- you're not attacking the religion itself, you're attacking the people that follow it by calling them brainwashed. Criticism of Islam I don't mind- so long as it stays within a respectful boundary (just like when people critise Irish people- so long as they remain respectful and logical, I don't care what they say- in fact, oftentimes I'd agree with them). If you're going to attack a person, you're obviously going to piss them off. A lot of people take on a belief as their identity because they feel strongly about it and it plays an intrinsic role in the morals that guide how they lead their life- would you say that Nationalists are brainwashed? They have a belief system that they feel is very much part of them, don't they? So who brainwashed people like Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse, Eamonn de Valera or the ENTIRE Sinn Fein organisation?

book smarts wrote: »

I suggest you read up on hypnosis, suggestibility, neuro-linguistic programming, and various psychological tricks that have been used throughout history to manipulate the human mind.

I suggest you find a different medium for being a poncy show-off and trying to prove yourself as some kind of 'intellectual'

book smarts

Jannah wrote: »

Do you have proof that what I believe is false? I don't assume anything, and while I don't rely on 'scientific' proofs, I was in no way brainwashed- in fact, I researched Islam by myself and received little to no input from others- so how exactly am I brainwashed? Unless I managed to brainwash myself, in which case I would be very interested to hear how that would be conducted?

The onus is to prove it's true, not to disprove it. False until proven true. You researched it by yourself? So if Islam had never existed and no book had ever been written, you would have come up with it all by yourself? Don't be ridiculous. It's easy to brainwash oneself. Just repeat something enough times and eventually you'll believe it.

Jannah wrote: »

Oh don't just take my word on it- see for yourself

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)

So because IT IS WRITTEN, that makes it true? Why should I take the word of some book? Because you told me to?

Jannah wrote: »

Because terrorist inspired madrassas are all the rage now :rolleyes: Specific targeting is chosing the vulnerable and forcing them to convert- yet in Islam, to do so would be against the morals of the faith. There is nothing in the qur'an that states people should recite it non stop and rock back and forth

Then why do they do it?

Jannah wrote: »

Do enlighten me. Don't be all talk unless you're willing to back it up with evidence- after all, you do love your facts

I thought the worldwide muslim caliphate under sharia was a goal of all muslims? (With burkas,honour killings and beheadings for all)

Jannah wrote: »

Questioning and riducling are two very different things. As I already said, I don't believe in blind faith. I don't feel that someone has true faith in something until they have questioned all areas that they have doubts about and come to a resolution. Mockery is pointless- it's only aim is to prove yourself as being an ignorant elitist who can't accept that others don't agree with your beliefs. I don't care if people believe in something different to me, but they don't have the right to call me brainwashed for holding my beliefs. I could have equally told you that you must be brainwashed by the Godless western media, that you're simply regurgitating Dawkins hysteria blah blah blah, but I respect that others think differently.

You don't start from the book and work from there, you start with nothing and work up. If you had never seen the book, would you have written it yourself? Of course not.

Jannah wrote: »

Religion is a lifestyle, it is a guide to how we should behave socially and it is contains rites of passage to mark all aspects of our lives- yet in the end all of these link back to its overall moral influence

Well thankfully with secular humanism we don't need religion anymore. We certainly don't need it to "mark all aspects of our lives". It's a relic from an age when people didn't have science as we know it. Plenty of atheists live perfectly happy and good lives without any need for it, at all.

Jannah wrote: »

And you think it is okay that the world should endure the hardship, accidents and illnesses associated with drink so that some other people can get a bit of pleasure- even though it is wholly unnecessary and avoidable? The mind boggles.

Most drinkers thoroughly enjoy it with little to no hardship- maybe a hangover the next day. A small minority do too much, but some people do too much of all kinds of things, including religion.

Jannah wrote: »

Would you prefer for these 'virile young men' to go around spreading AIDs, STIs, STDs and HPV (causes 90% of cervical cancers) causing huge social problems with teenage and unwanted pregnancies? You can hardly call abstinence 'hardship'- it's called self control and if people weren't so sexualised these days it wouldn't be such an issue. I'm wondering if you've seen the boy (4ft tall, that's all he is) who conceived a child at 12 and is a father at 13, wondering how he will support a child on his pocket money of £10 a week? Don't you ever wonder about the hardship caused there? I don't see how abstinence can possibly cause "accidents and illness" - completely ridiculous.

Human beings have natural sexual desires, and to supress them is mentally unhealthy- just look at priests. It quite often makes them bitter and jealous, and makes sex into a huge big deal- they are in a perpetual state of teenage frustration. They justify this by calling normal people "sexualised", as if it was the worst thing in the world- when there's nothing wrong with it.

Also that kid couldnt 'be the father- he's only a chipmunk! Even if he is, plenty of societies actually encourage teenage marriage- India for example. And it's quite common for Pakistani muslim men to marry their 13 year old cousin against her will, so don't dare be preaching about that.

Jannah wrote: »

You obviously didn't read my post properly at all. They can take or leave religion, but if your purpose on this earth ISN'T to make some kind of positive contribution to the society you're in, then I really don't know what it is.

Well if you knew the purpose of life you'd be a first!

Jannah wrote: »

And this has what exactly to do with religion? Men manipulate women all the time (they probably wouldn't get laid otherwise). I have never had Islam forced on me so I really don't know how exactly I could be 'brainwashed' into it- if anything, people are being deterred from Islam because of the bad rap it gets in the media.

It doesn't have to be forced to be brainwashing- subtle propaganda does the trick.

Jannah wrote: »

That's ridiculous- you're not attacking the religion itself, you're attacking the people that follow it by calling them brainwashed. Criticism of Islam I don't mind- so long as it stays within a respectful boundary (just like when people critise Irish people- so long as they remain respectful and logical, I don't care what they say- in fact, oftentimes I'd agree with them). If you're going to attack a person, you're obviously going to piss them off. A lot of people take on a belief as their identity because they feel strongly about it and it plays an intrinsic role in the morals that guide how they lead their life- would you say that Nationalists are brainwashed? They have a belief system that they feel is very much part of them, don't they? So who brainwashed people like Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse, Eamonn de Valera or the ENTIRE Sinn Fein organisation?

Respectful boundary- like a cartoon? I agree that nationalists are brainwashed.

Jannah wrote: »

I suggest you find a different medium for being a poncy show-off and trying to prove yourself as some kind of 'intellectual'

Poncy show-off? Moi?

ChocolateSauce

Quran wrote:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion.

Except that if you don't join, you will be cast into hell and tortured for all eternity.

Mickeroo

That whole teapot analogy was stolen right out of The God Delusion right?

Jannah

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Except that if you don't join, you will be cast into hell and tortured for all eternity.

Buuut if you don’t believe in Islam, surely you don’t believe in the eternal fires of hell either? The vast majority of religions don’t paint a rosy picture of what will happen to unbelievers. The moral of there being no compulsion in religion is that it is unislamic to force someone to be a Muslim, as only they alone can submit their will to Allah and if it is not their choice, their faith won’t be sincere.

book smarts wrote: »

False until proven true.

Wow, I’d hate to have you on a jury…

book smarts wrote: »

You researched it by yourself? So if Islam had never existed and no book had ever been written, you would have come up with it all by yourself? Don't be ridiculous.

So if a book about gravity or evolution wasn’t written, they wouldn’t have existed either? The whole reason the Qur’an was given the Muhammad was to enlighten people- God doesn’t expect for us to be telepathic and simple ‘know’ something before we’ve even heard of it. My point is that since I was the person to initiate the research of Islam, that completely overturns your belief that people need to be ‘brainwashed’ into it from relatives or from birth. One doesn’t need Islamic beliefs to be forced on them to appreciate their worth.

book smarts wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous. It's easy to brainwash oneself. Just repeat something enough times and eventually you'll believe it.

In fairness, that’s a fairly stupid thing today. You could apply that to anything- you can keep repeating “There is no God” and eventually believe it, but it won’t change anything either. And, for the record, I didn’t use this ‘method’!

book smarts wrote: »

So because IT IS WRITTEN, that makes it true? Why should I take the word of some book? Because you told me to?

The Qur’an isn’t seen as being ‘some book’ – it’s the word of God that was send through the prophet Muhammad. Of course, don’t take my word for it. There are many reasons to believe that this book couldn’t have possibly been ‘made up.’ It was narrated over 23 years and yet it doesn’t have one single contradiction, it was narrated to an illiterate man who was able to produce of the most beautifully composed pieces of writing to ever been produced- it’s rhythm, it’s poetic nature and its grammar are so advanced that much of Arabic grammar is based on the Qur’an alone. It was also revolutionary in implementing a much more civilised society in one that was plagued by pagan beliefs, female infanticide, murder, stealing, usury, unfair contracts etc. Through the Qur’an, women achieved many rights- the right to property, to inheritance, a greater social standing, and rights for marriage, divorce and child custody. During a time that men were accumulating vast harams of women, the Qur’an became the one (and only) religious scripture which put a limit on the amount of wives a man could have and gave strict regulations on how they should be maintained. There is an abundance of great innovations that the Qur’an achieved.

book smarts wrote: »

Then why do they do it [rock back and forth during recitation]?

This is a practice that is not simply confined to Islam and it is in no way harmful to the person. Orthodox Jews also have a habit of swaying/rocking the body during prayer (both seated & standing) and this custom has been documented since ancient times. In the Zohar (which is one of the main texts of Jewish scripture of the Kabbalah) Rabbi Yossi asks Rabbi Abba: "Why is it that among all nations the Jews alone have the habit of swaying the body when they study the Torah?" Rabbi Abba answers: "It illustrates the excellence of their souls. Proverbs 20:27 refers to them: 'The soul of man is the candle of the Lord ' The light of that candle flickers and wavers in unison with the light of the Torah." While they are swaying their bodies during prayer or recitation they are like the dancing & flickering flame because, "The soul of man is the candle of the Lord."

book smarts wrote: »

I thought the worldwide muslim caliphate under sharia was a goal of all muslims? (With burkas,honour killings and beheadings for all)

[/FONT][/COLOR]
Hoho, I get a feeling this is going to be a long post…! Okay, so obviously, all religions would be happy to have everyone under the one united faith, but in Islam it is acknowledged that if Allah had wanted us all to be Muslim, Allah would have created us all Muslim- yet where is the test in faith there? Allah wants us to come to him of our own free will with sincere faith.
(6:107) Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.
(88:21)And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

Noooow to burkas- quite simply, they are completely unnecessary. It is a tribal tradition that predates Islam (like female genital mutilation). It was actually used by the very wealthy women who didn’t want the plebeians looking at their faces- and for that reason, I feel it’s not only unnecessary but attention seeking and snobbery. There are no rewards for such actions, no matter what people many say. Women are only required to cover their bodies except for their hands and face. This was devised so that women could go about their daily lives without harassment or anyone looking at them in a lewd way- its purpose is to liberate women.
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).
“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

Honour killings are COMPLETELY against the spirit of Islam and it is completely forbidden to take the law into our own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. It is also very wrong to hurt an innocent person. Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it. “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)
The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community." (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

As for beheading, I’m sure you are referring to the cases in the media where British and American journalists and whatnot are being beheaded- which, one again, is against Islam. Allah in the Qur'an forbade Muslims from killing non-combatants, and allowed them only to fight against combatants. The Qur'an, in numerous verses, illustrated that. For example: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress; for Allah does not love not transgressors (Al-Baqarah 2:190)
Obviously, these civilians were clearly not fighters. Even if, hypothetically, those civilians were serving invading troops are partners in the transgression, these hostages would then be "prisoners of war" (Arabic: asraa). And beheading is not the way that the Qur'an, to quote it again as a reference, dealt with prisoners of war. In fact, they would be well cared for.
And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive of war - [Saying] We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks. We only fear a Day of distressful Wrath from the side of our Lord." So, Allah will deliver them from the evil of that Day, and will shed over them a light of beauty and joy (Al-Insan 76:8-11)
Therefore, it is an Islamic duty to feed the captives of war, treat them well, and to respect their humanity. Once the war is over, it is their duty to either free them or to ransom or exchange them.
“When you [Muslims] have overcome them [the fighters], then make them prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favour or let them be ransomed, until the war terminates.” (Muhammad 47:4)

book smarts wrote: »

You don't start from the book and work from there, you start with nothing and work up. If you had never seen the book, would you have written it yourself? Of course not.

Think of the best book you’ve ever read (“The God Delusion” no doubt :P) would you have been able to write it yourself? More than likely no. Yet does it stop it from being a brilliant book? Does it make that book any less real? Allah chose not to reveal the Qur’an to me (good call on his part, I must say!) but he did reveal it and I can appreciate it’s greatness.

book smarts wrote: »

Well thankfully with secular humanism we don't need religion anymore. We certainly don't need it to "mark all aspects of our lives". It's a relic from an age when people didn't have science as we know it. Plenty of atheists live perfectly happy and good lives without any need for it, at all.

Subconsciously we all mark certain parts of our lives- birthdays, new year, anniversaries, marriage and- of course- the ones you don’t get a choice in- birth and death! They’re all landmarks in your life- why not have a religious ceremony to mark significant parts of your life too? Yes, atheists live perfectly happy lives- so do Muslims. And Christians. And Hindus. The fact is, religion enriches many peoples’ lives too and the teachings of religions on how to lead a good life significantly benefit them too. The idea is that nobody will ever live long enough to fully, 100% understand why we should do things, their consequences and the best way to live- that is why people look to the words of Allah for guidance because, as our creator, he knows best. Also, there is an ever so SLIIIGHT difference in their eventual treatment in the afterlife, but since you don’t believe there is an afterlife, I’m sure you don’t care to hear about that

book smarts wrote: »

Most drinkers thoroughly enjoy it with little to no hardship- maybe a hangover the next day. A small minority do too much, but some people do too much of all kinds of things, including religion.

Firsly, excess in religion is not allowed in Islam:
(as narrated by Imams Ahmed, Al-Ne’sa’ee, Ben Maja, Al Ha Kim and Sahih)
I warn you of religious extremism; nations before you have perished because of religious extremism
Qur'an 5:77-80 Surah Al-Ma'idah
O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper) trespassing beyond the truth nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by who misled many and strayed (themselves) from the even way.
Qur'an 4:171 Surah An-Nisaa
O people of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth.

Secondly, drinking alcohol is always harmful for your body- half of all crimes committed are drink related. It is not simply a hangover that is the hardship- sure just the other week a UCC student who was drunk managed to crush himself with his own car during rag week- and I’m sure he thought he was simply having fun too. If religion is practiced correctly, it can cause a lot of good, but no matter what way you drink, it will always intoxicate you, make you do things you wouldn’t normally do and has because this social crutch in our society that leads to unprotected sex, rape, fights, crime, disease and the like- when it is wholly unnecessary

book smarts wrote: »

Human beings have natural sexual desires, and to supress them is mentally unhealthy- just look at priests.

Are we animals? No? Then why on earth would we not be able to CONTROL (not suppress) our sexual desires? Yes, it is natural, and my point is that when sex is taken beyond the boundaries of marriage is can hurt everyone involved- the illegitimate child, the single mother, the grandparents who often take on the burden of the child, the father who must provide for a child that he may not be sure is his and also that he is not prepared to financially support. Promiscuity can lead to hurt feelings, sexually transmitted diseases- even death. You sure do but a high price on pleasure. Also, in regards to priests, I do not agree with their lifestyles one bit. This kind of cebibate living is not condoned in Islam as it is seen as unnatural and it is believed that marriage is half of a person’s faith and that one must live as a householder.
(Sahih Muslim - Book 008, Number 3237)
The Messengger of Allah (may peace be upon him) rejected (the idea) of Uthman b. Muz'unliving in celibacy (saying): And if he (the Holy Prophet) had given me permission We would have got ourselves castrated.

book smarts wrote: »

It quite often makes them bitter and jealous, and makes sex into a huge big deal- they are in a perpetual state of teenage frustration. They justify this by calling normal people "sexualised", as if it was the worst thing in the world- when there's nothing wrong with it.

Lol, trust me, I’m sure the vast majority of bitter and jealous people out there aren’t so because of a lack of sex! I’m not bitter and jealous (you don’t need to comment of whether you agree with that, thanks!!) nor as I “unhealthy” because I don’t have sex. I think one of the biggest problems in this world is that people don’t make a big enough deal about sex. One only has their virginity once and having sex with someone is creating a bond with them and by doing so there are chemicals in your brain (especially for women) that make you get very attached to this person- it is not simply a quick fix for if you’re feeling up for it

book smarts wrote: »

Also that kid couldnt 'be the father- he's only a chipmunk! Even if he is, plenty of societies actually encourage teenage marriage- India for example. And it's quite common for Pakistani muslim men to marry their 13 year old cousin against her will, so don't dare be preaching about that.

Aha, so you’re a DNA expert too, yes? Three boys (for that’s all they are) have come forth as being the possibly fathers of this 15 year old girl’s baby. That’s horrendous. At least within a marriage there would be some sort of stability and commitment- this situation is a very sorry one. It is against Islam to marry someone against their will:
"A guardian has no concern with a woman previously married and has no husband, and an orphan girl (i.e. virgin) must be consulted, her silence being her acceptance." [Sunan of Abu Dawud 2095, Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas]
"Her guardian should not make a promise (to somebody to get her married to him) without her knowledge..." [Sahih Al-Bukhari 7.56]

book smarts wrote: »

It doesn't have to be forced to be brainwashing- subtle propaganda does the trick.

So where exactly is this propaganda that you speak of? Because I’ve never encountered such a ridiculous thing in all my research of Islam.

book smarts wrote: »

Respectful boundary- like a cartoon?

Oh come on!! That was hardly a ‘respectful boundary’- that was a full out attempt to provoke the Muslim community as depicting Allah or Muhammad is seen as a terribly disrespectful thing to do and was wholly insensitive. It was not there to question something, or prove a point other than the fact that they are ignorant of other people’s beliefs and completely disrespectful

book smarts wrote: »

I agree that nationalists are brainwashed.

Gee whiz, who ISN’T brainwashed then? You? You’re the only one on this earth, right? Because you’ve never been influenced by one thing around you? You could have been born in the jungle and you’d still think the exact same things as you do today? Don’t be so ignorant.

Mickeroo wrote: »

That whole teapot analogy was stolen right out of The God Delusion right?

I think the vast majority of his theories are spin offs from The God Delusion under a thin disguise of it being ‘his’ opinion- quite ironic that he would denounce others for taking heed of a book that they felt held all the answers too. The funny thing about people like Dawkins (and I have read that book btw) is that he’s such a snobby elitist who believes it’s his way or the highway and YET in the same breath he goes on about how we should be tolerant and outlines his own ‘ideal’ society and its rules when in fact he’s making people miserable by bashing their beliefs and not even thinking of how religion can be a great motivator in many peoples’ lives to live better and treat people well.

ChocolateSauce

Buuut if you don’t believe in Islam, surely you don’t believe in the eternal fires of hell either? The vast majority of religions don’t paint a rosy picture of what will happen to unbelievers. The moral of there being no compulsion in religion is that it is unislamic to force someone to be a Muslim, as only they alone can submit their will to Allah and if it is not their choice, their faith won’t be sincere.

So you must voluntarily and sincerely submit to Islam (or many other religions, just to be fair), or else you will be tortured for all eternity?

Jannah

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

So you must voluntarily and sincerely submit to Islam (or many other religions, just to be fair), or else you will be tortured for all eternity?

The point is that if you don't believe in Islam, you don't believe you'll be tortured for all eternity either. So I guess you have nothing to worry about then

I find it so funny how BookSmarts decided to make a statement of "You are brainwashed" into a (ridiculous) question to bypass 'offending' anyone... and failed. Pretty strange way of going about it. Of course, I wouldn't have noticed that, what with my weak brainwashed mind and all

book smarts

Jannah wrote: »

Wow, I’d hate to have you on a jury…

Would that be a sharia jury? Oh wait, they don’t have them, just the whim of some old man, with his absurd logic.

Jannah wrote: »

So if a book about gravity or evolution wasn’t written, they wouldn’t have existed either?

Science is independently testable with experiments. Religion is the UNPROVABLE, UNTESTABLE word of some authority.

Jannah wrote: »

My point is that since I was the person to initiate the research of Islam, that completely overturns your belief that people need to be ‘brainwashed’ into it from relatives or from birth. One doesn’t need Islamic beliefs to be forced on them to appreciate their worth.

That completely overturns nothing. You merely completed the brainwashing yourself. It was initiated by your family or imam or whoever showed you the book in the first place. If some cult approached you in the street and gave you literature, it’s the same thing.

Jannah wrote: »

In fairness, that’s a fairly stupid thing today. You could apply that to anything- you can keep repeating “There is no God” and eventually believe it, but it won’t change anything either. And, for the record, I didn’t use this ‘method’!

Why does the default belief have to be- "there is a god?" why not- “there is is no god until proven.” The universe has order, we’re trying to understand it- why not just leave it at that? There's no need to project human qualities onto nature- a “creator” etc.

Jannah wrote: »

The Qur’an isn’t seen as being ‘some book’ – it’s the word of God that was send through the prophet Muhammad..

It was written by someone as ideas came into their head- it does not mean they came from a divine source. Why, because he said do?

Jannah wrote: »

This is a practice that is not simply confined to Islam and it is in no way harmful to the person….

So kids reciting unprovable dogma for hours on end isn’t harmful? How would you feel if your kids were in some cult doing the same?

Jannah wrote: »

This was devised so that women could go about their daily lives without harassment or anyone looking at them in a lewd way- its purpose is to liberate women.

It “liberates” women? What? Would YOU like to cover up? Would that “liberate” you? That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. It oppresses women. Ask any woman in the West and they’d agree.

Jannah wrote: »

Honour killings are COMPLETELY against the spirit of Islam

According to some interpretations, honour killings are perfectly acceptable. Islam condones stoning for adultery, killing and slavery of infidels, and jihad. Throughout history, muslims have enslaved millions of Africans and slaughtered millions of Europeans, all in accordance with the quran. Killing is supported by many parts of the book.

Jannah wrote: »

Think of the best book you’ve ever read (“The God Delusion” no doubt :P) would you have been able to write it yourself? More than likely no.

That book contains common sense that atheists figured out themselves long ago. So more than likely, yes, I could write it, or something like it, if I had to.

Jannah wrote: »

Yet does it stop it from being a brilliant book? Does it make that book any less real? Allah chose not to reveal the Qur’an to me (good call on his part, I must say!) but he did reveal it and I can appreciate it’s greatness.

Well, my God, let’s call him Teapot, has just this minute revealed to me his book. Let’s call it the Book of Teapots. You should believe and follow it! Why? Because I said so!!! If you independently “research” this book you will verify it to be true.

Jannah wrote: »

why not have a religious ceremony to mark significant parts of your life too?

Because we don’t need to.

Jannah wrote: »

Yes, atheists live perfectly happy lives-

So you see- you don’t need religion.

Jannah wrote: »

that is why people look to the words of Allah for guidance because, as our creator, he knows best.

First of all, he doesn’t exist. Second, who are you, or this non-existent entity, to say what’s best for anyone?

Jannah wrote: »

Also, there is an ever so SLIIIGHT difference in their eventual treatment in the afterlife, but since you don’t believe there is an afterlife, I’m sure you don’t care to hear about that

There is no proof of an afterlife. Absolutely none. There was nothing before, why should there be anything after? You are an organism. You live, you die. That’s it. There is no happy ending. Just accept it. Like all the countless trillions of organisms since life began.

Jannah wrote: »

Secondly, drinking alcohol is always harmful for your body- half of all crimes committed are drink related…..

Most people drink without those bad things happening. You’re again taking the actions of a few and condemning all drinking because of it.

Jannah wrote: »

Are we animals? No? Then why on earth would we not be able to CONTROL (not suppress) our sexual desires? Yes, it is natural, and my point is that when sex is taken beyond the boundaries of marriage is can hurt everyone involved- the illegitimate child, the single mother, the grandparents who often take on the burden of the child, the father who must provide for a child that he may not be sure is his and also that he is not prepared to financially support. Promiscuity can lead to hurt feelings, sexually transmitted diseases- even death. You sure do but a high price on pleasure. Also, in regards to priests, I do not agree with their lifestyles one bit. This kind of cebibate living is not condoned in Islam as it is seen as unnatural and it is believed that marriage is half of a person’s faith and that one must live as a householder.

Controlling desire is suppression. When you see a girl you like, you may not act on your desires, but you still have them. You can’t help it. But if you don’t score sooner or later, it can fukc with your head.
Sex outside marriage is harmless and all those bad thing you mention don’t happen to the majority of people. There are plenty of married people who are unhappy and have no stability. Or they live in fear of their cruel husband who beats them like cattle and wont let them out of the house.

And lol @ promiscuity leading to hurt feelings!! That’s a good one. There is no price. You’re imagining it.

All those unmarried young muslim men (and women) must be living unnaturally then! Sexual repression is one of the reasons why so many muslims are so angry, I think. They think the “decadent” west are “sex crazed animals”, lol. You should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about westerners’ sex habits on Saudi TV!! Considering some of their women have sex with the burka on! Does that sound natural to you?

Jannah wrote: »

Lol, trust me, I’m sure the vast majority of bitter and jealous people out there aren’t so because of a lack of sex! I’m not bitter and jealous (you don’t need to comment of whether you agree with that, thanks!!) nor as I “unhealthy” because I don’t have sex.

So you’re an unmarried young man? Maybe if you got laid you wouldn’t see sex as such a big deal.

Jannah wrote: »

.It is against Islam to marry someone against their will:

Yet muslims do it all over the middle east and in their communities in the west.

Jannah wrote: »

So where exactly is this propaganda that you speak of? Because I’ve never encountered such a ridiculous thing in all my research of Islam.

Propaganda is everywhere. Every book, picture and ad, that tries to change your belief.

Jannah wrote: »

Oh come on!! That was hardly a ‘respectful boundary’- that was a full out attempt to provoke the Muslim community as depicting Allah or Muhammad is seen as a terribly disrespectful thing to do and was wholly insensitive. It was not there to question something, or prove a point other than the fact that they are ignorant of other people’s beliefs and completely disrespectful

So muslims get offended at the drop of a hat, yet they can say what they like about other religions? They responded with their own derogatory cartoons about christianity and Judaism. They rioted, caused millions in damages and killed several people. Did the christians do something similar? No. Islam routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west.

Jannah wrote: »

Gee whiz, who ISN’T brainwashed then? You? You’re the only one on this earth, right? Because you’ve never been influenced by one thing around you? You could have been born in the jungle and you’d still think the exact same things as you do today? Don’t be so ignorant.

Everyones brainwashed in some way. I said that already

Jannah wrote: »

The funny thing about people like Dawkins (and I have read that book btw) is that he’s such a snobby elitist who believes it’s his way or the highway ...

Dawkins is absolutely right. Some people just don’t want to admit it, especially if they’ve spent their whole lives being wrong.

Please don’t respond with passages from the book, they’re meaningless. Logic and reason please.

ginada

I have almost completed my degree in Psychology, thesis next year and this is exactly the topic that I'd love to tackle- please PM your email, if you think that you could contrabute.
Basically, I became Muslim at 24, I'm almost 35 now, I have been studying Psychology and Philosophy for the past 5 years. I have a logical mind and I needed to tie up loose ends. Basically the human begins life as a tabula rasa- blank, no influences except an innate nature for good which is contradicted by babies bashing each other over the head with toys-lol. I have a brother who claims to be an Atheist-lol, he has a beautiful daughter and I feel that parents often need to believe that there is an entity protecting their child. One of my tutors is an atheist and he was devastated when his friend died suddenly- a belief in an afterlife is psychologically useful, believing that you know it all is incorrect and not beneficial to mental health. Religious people are happier. (References available LOL )
Slan

DinoBot

ginada wrote: »

I have almost completed my degree in Psychology, thesis next year and this is exactly the topic that I'd love to tackle- please PM your email, if you think that you could contrabute.
One of my tutors is an atheist and he was devastated when his friend died suddenly- a belief in an afterlife is psychologically useful, believing that you know it all is incorrect and not beneficial to mental health. Religious people are happier. (References available LOL )
Slan

I always found it quite psychologically harmful when you have to explain hell to children. No comfort in the afterlife for Kafur's.

Please provide references for the studies showing religious people are happier.

ginada

I became Muslim at 24 so my entire family would be called 'KAFIR' by some and if not all then at least my atheist brother. Christians should be called AHL AL KITAB, people of the book, the bible which is also from God- also the Qur'an says anyone who believes in one God is going to Heaven and anyone with even an atoms weight of faith- so I certainly won't be damning anyone to hell.
:rolleyes:, You don't sit down with kids and start telling them about Hell, unless you're a bit nuts yourself-lol. All children go to Heaven according to Islam regardless of their actions as they are not responsible prior to puberty. Basically its a kinda do unto others what you would like people to do to you, kinda thing--y'now...even atheists will teach their kids morals and right from wrong. So, my kids are not being psychologically damaged by talk re: Hell. Regarding references-I'll get them at the end of the week. I'm late with an assignment and I'm searching for references for that at the mo.
So..would you be interested in putting an opposing view to the religious one for my thesis- I might have a questionaire to do up and if you tell me which bits of religiousity that you find most illogical, it'll help me a lot.
Talk soon
Slan :cool:

DinoBot

ginada wrote: »

I became Muslim at 24 so my entire family would be called 'KAFIR' by some and if not all then at least my atheist brother. ............ also the Qur'an says anyone who believes in one God is going to Heaven and anyone with even an atoms weight of faith- so I certainly won't be damning anyone to hell.

I think the main point for access to heaven from your description above is:

(1) anyone who believes in one God
Surly you mean the one true god here, believe in one god could not be enough. Like if I believe Jesus is god, does that count ?

(2)anyone with even an atoms weight of faith
Again, I take it you mean that an atoms weight of faith in Islam ie, 'There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah'

So, can I ask, would your christian family fit the requirement ?

ginada wrote: »

:rolleyes:, You don't sit down with kids and start telling them about Hell, unless you're a bit nuts yourself-lol. All children go to Heaven according to Islam regardless of their actions as they are not responsible prior to puberty. Basically its a kinda do unto others what you would like people to do to you, kinda thing--y'now...even atheists will teach their kids morals and right from wrong. So, my kids are not being psychologically damaged by talk re: Hell.

Perhaps my understanding is wrong. I thought hell would be something you would want to warn your kids about. I teach my kids about safety in the road and talking to strangers so if hell is real for you whats the problem with teaching kids about it ? (of course at an age appropriate level)

ginada wrote: »

Regarding references-I'll get them at the end of the week.
Slan :cool:

Cool, thanks

Simon.d

ginada wrote: »

I became Muslim at 24 so my entire family would be called 'KAFIR' by some and if not all then at least my atheist brother. Christians should be called AHL AL KITAB, people of the book, the bible which is also from God- also the Qur'an says anyone who believes in one God is going to Heaven and anyone with even an atoms weight of faith- so I certainly won't be damning anyone to hell.

Could you explain to me the meaning behind these verses:

“Those who disbelieve among the People of the Book and the Polytheists, will be thrown in hellfire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures” (98:6).

“Those people who say that God is the third of three (i.e. the Christian trinity) are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist.” (5:72)

If your Christian family, following exposure to Islam subsequently reject it, will they go to hell? i..e If they don't convert after you telling them about your faith are they destined for eternal pain and misery?

I also assume you believe that your Atheist brother will end up in hell?

Jannah

ginada wrote: »

Basically, I became Muslim at 24, I'm almost 35 now, I have been studying Psychology and Philosophy for the past 5 years.

Masha'Allah- it's great to see successful Muslim women who are living proof that Islam doesn't mean a life of repression, seclusion or denial of education by a LONG SHOT. I wish you all the best.

book smarts wrote: »

Science is independently testable with experiments. Religion is the UNPROVABLE, UNTESTABLE word of some authority.

Since the basis of religion is highly historical, I doubt that very much. The Qur'an knew of scientfic facts long before any ordinary human being came to a conclusion on it by studying about it, including about fault lines in the earth, sea floor spreading, iron within the earth, the Big Bang, the formation of mountains etc
http://www.55a.net/en/miracles/a047.php

book smarts wrote: »

That completely overturns nothing. You merely completed the brainwashing yourself. It was initiated by your family or imam or whoever showed you the book in the first place. If some cult approached you in the street and gave you literature, it’s the same thing.

I've never met an Iman and my family knows nothing about Islam, so you're theory is, again, wrong. I have had very little contact with actual Muslims in Cork and that was only when I initiated it myself. So who, by your standards, is 'brainwashing' me? Islam most definititely wasn't 'some cult that approached me in the street' so don't even go there

book smarts wrote: »

Why does the default belief have to be- "there is a god?" why not- “there is is no god until proven.” The universe has order, we’re trying to understand it- why not just leave it at that? There's no need to project human qualities onto nature- a “creator” etc..

Science has failed to explain everything in the earth and for as long as there is the inexplainable, there will be religion that gives people the answers. Why not just leave it at that? Because religion is the foundation of many peoples' morals, cultures and a great support to them in times of deaths or tragedy. If you don't want to believe that there is a God, that's your problem, but the fact is that you must allow people to continue their faiths and neither your atheism nor their religion should be disrupted while each individual is leading a morally constructive life that doesn't interfere in a negative way with others. Insulting them by calling them 'brainwashed' only heightens the fact that you are ignorant.

book smarts wrote: »

It was written by someone as ideas came into their head- it does not mean they came from a divine source. Why, because he said do?

'As ideas came into his head' is so ridiculous on so many levels. My last post explaining Muhammad's illiteracy, it's 24 years of narration without fault or contradition, its scientific proofs that were yet unknown to humans, its perfect Arabic script etc all explains why the Qur'an is indeed a divine source

book smarts wrote: »

So kids reciting unprovable dogma for hours on end isn’t harmful? How would you feel if your kids were in some cult doing the same?

Firstly, Islam is not a cult.
Secondly, if someone was a Muslim, it would not be 'unproven dogma'
Thirdly, I would have absolutely no problem with my children learning to recide the Qur'an

book smarts wrote: »

It “liberates” women? What? Would YOU like to cover up? Would that “liberate” you? That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. It oppresses women. Ask any woman in the West and they’d agree.

HA! Okay, women in the west may consider themselves 'liberated' but the fact is that they're being thrown half naked across billboards and advertisements in order for people to sell their goods, they're under horrendous pressure to always look beautiful, balance a high powered career and raise a perfect family all at the same time, their role models are impossibly thin and more often than not completely mentally unstable, many are still being paid less than men, still face a glass ceiling in their employment and are constantly being subjugated by males by wolf whistling, beeping horns and indecent proposals in public. If a woman is still a virgin in her 20s there "must be something wrong with her" and all the while they're under social pressure to have boyfriends, have sex and wear revealing clothes. If that's what you call 'liberation' then it's a sad world.
Would I like to cover up? Yes. Simple as. Some Muslim women don't cover, but that doesn't stop the fact that it is said in the Qur'an. They are most certainly not oppressed- they are taking control of their bodies and not allowing some lecherous man to salivate all over them like they're some piece of meat.

book smarts wrote: »

According to some interpretations, honour killings are perfectly acceptable.

REALLY? I wholeheartedly disagree with you. If you're going to be making outrageous statements like that, I'd like to see real evidence.

book smarts wrote: »

That book contains common sense that atheists figured out themselves long ago. So more than likely, yes, I could write it, or something like it, if I had to.

Would you be able to write it in such an eloquent way that the English language itself would be based on your writings? Would you unearth some new scientific discoveries? Oh, and while you're at it, not have one single contradiction or mistake and be the basis of the second largest religion in the world? Nope, thought not.

book smarts wrote: »

Well, my God, let’s call him Teapot, has just this minute revealed to me his book. Let’s call it the Book of Teapots. You should believe and follow it! Why? Because I said so!!! If you independently “research” this book you will verify it to be true.

Could I not say that, by your definition, you are brainwashed by "The God Delusion"? For one thing, you keep spewing this teapot crap which you wouldn't have thought of had it not been for Dawkins, therefore it has infiltrated your mind and you're obviously swayed by its opinions.

book smarts wrote: »

Because we don’t need to.

We also don't 'need' to celebrate birthdays, have recreational activities or have many modern appliances yet we still do- why? Because we like to.

book smarts wrote: »

So you see- you don’t need religion.

It's the afterlife that atheists need to worry about

book smarts wrote: »

First of all, he doesn’t exist. Second, who are you, or this non-existent entity, to say what’s best for anyone?

If you don't believe that God exists, then the Islam forum obviously isn't the place for you. As our creator, it is my belief that God, because he has created us and knows our strengths and weaknesses, knows what is best for everyone.

book smarts wrote: »

There is no proof of an afterlife. Absolutely none. There was nothing before, why should there be anything after? You are an organism. You live, you die. That’s it. There is no happy ending. Just accept it. Like all the countless trillions of organisms since life began.

There is also nothing to disprove the afterlife and if you believe that you just get 70 or 80 years of life and then you just die and turn into dust and nothing happens, off you go, but that's not my belief of it

book smarts wrote: »

Most people drink without those bad things happening. You’re again taking the actions of a few and condemning all drinking because of it.

Whenever you drink, you are hurting your body- shouldn't something that causes so much harm be gotten rid of completely?

book smarts wrote: »

Controlling desire is suppression. When you see a girl you like, you may not act on your desires, but you still have them. You can’t help it. But if you don’t score sooner or later, it can fukc with your head.

What you've just described it the subjugation of women that is the west. In Islam, the woman dresses so as not to arouse such thoughts in others and secondly, the man is asked to lower his gaze and not be so animalistic and degrading as to see her as a piece of meat. If we didn't control our sexual desires, people would be running around raping other people left right and centre. From http://www.redorbit.com
"Abstinence-until-marriage builds character and self-control. Unlike slapping on a condom, self-control must be cultivated over time. It is not a technique to master but a deeply rooted prize to nurture. When properly developed, it will help teens become adults that are effective long-range planners .... Just as self-control in the sexual arena benefits other areas of life, likewise the practice of immediate gratification of sexual urges encourages impulsiveness in many areas of life."

book smarts wrote: »

Sex outside marriage is harmless and all those bad thing you mention don’t happen to the majority of people.

Harmless- no. Whether it is the psychological impact of it, being left pregnant or with diseases or letting down your parents who expect you to act in a more moral way, people having sex outside marriage does harm them and others a lot more than you think

book smarts wrote: »

There are plenty of married people who are unhappy and have no stability. Or they live in fear of their cruel husband who beats them like cattle and wont let them out of the house.

I sincerely hope that you are not insinuating that Muslims are cruel husbands who beat their wives like cattle and don't allow them out of the house because such a statement would be completely untrue and disgusting to the entire Muslim community

book smarts wrote: »

And lol @ promiscuity leading to hurt feelings!! That’s a good one. There is no price. You’re imagining it.

I'm imagining it, yes? Well as a male I would expect you to have such short sightedness, but you have no idea the mental impact promiscity has on females. Many of my friends have lost their virginity, some as young as 14, and all have feelings of shame, guilt and being used to don't even try saying that promiscuity doesn't come without a price

book smarts wrote: »

All those unmarried young muslim men (and women) must be living unnaturally then!

No, they just know the importance of sex from both a physical and mental perspective and don't wish to shag everything on legs. It is unnatural to live one's entire life without sex, but they only wait until marriage

book smarts wrote: »

Sexual repression is one of the reasons why so many muslims are so angry, I think. They think the “decadent” west are “sex crazed animals”, lol. You should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about westerners’ sex habits on Saudi TV!! Considering some of their women have sex with the burka on! Does that sound natural to you?

That's the stupidest theory I have ever in my life seen. Muslims are have nuts like you telling them that they're brainwashed, are being portrayed as subjugated or wife beaters, are having bombs thrown down on their houses and are being mass murdered in Palestine BUT NOOOOOOOO, they're angry because of a LACK OF SEX.
Lol "You should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about westerners’ sex habits on Saudi TV!!" - well maybe you should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about Muslims on Western TV. :rolleyes:
Having sex with a burka on? What the hell? What sort of weird porn have you been watching??

book smarts wrote: »

So you’re an unmarried young man? Maybe if you got laid you wouldn’t see sex as such a big deal.

I may not be an unmarried young man, but all humans are sexual beings and I'm as immune to it as any male, I just understand self control. Maybe if you learned to appreciate sex you WOULD see it as a big deal.

book smarts wrote: »

Yet muslims do it all over the middle east and in their communities in the west.

Well if we're using that logic then based on the US, Christianity must mean fornication, clubbing, adultery, use of guns by minors and all those lovely incidents that we hear to often about. Yet if something happens in the Middle East it's immediately a 'Muslim Problem"

book smarts wrote: »

Propaganda is everywhere. Every book, picture and ad, that tries to change your belief.

So following your logic, you've been brainwashed by atheism.

book smarts wrote: »

So muslims get offended at the drop of a hat, yet they can say what they like about other religions? They responded with their own derogatory cartoons about christianity and Judaism. They rioted, caused millions in damages and killed several people. Did the christians do something similar? No. Islam routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west.

Muslims are more passionate about their beliefs and while the violent protests were completely wrong, so were his actions in insulting Islam. Not ALL Muslims reacted with violence and it would be wrong of you to label it in that way. If Christians cared about their religion, they would make their voices heard when something wrong is done to offend their faith- not that they get picked on as much as Muslims do.
Secondly, Islam DOESN'T routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west- some unorthadox Muslims do. Not all Muslims are perfect in following their beliefs and Islam wouldn't advocate lies- Muhammad himself was renouned for his honesty and was given the name "Al-Ameen" which means "The Trustworthy".

book smarts wrote: »

Dawkins is absolutely right. Some people just don’t want to admit it, especially if they’ve spent their whole lives being wrong.

And because Dawkins is an elitist fool, he thinks he MUST BE "absolutely right". If I had a problem with religion, or if Muslims did, they'd stop being Muslims and admit it outright- who in their right mind would continue living a lie and saying 5 prayers a day if they didn't believe it was the truth?

book smarts wrote: »

Please don’t respond with passages from the book, they’re meaningless. Logic and reason please.

Well this book just so happens to be the basis on which you believe these 'messages of hate' are being spread so I think it is perfectly correct to use a source to make my point on an issue. If you want 'logic' then why doesn't you do your homework and actually READ what you are criticising before jumping in with completely outrageous comments.

ginada

Firstly can I just say that it's so refreshing to be able to debate in a 'nice' way. As soon as people start getting nasty I'm off- I don't need negativity. So thanks guys for being so kind in the manner that you phrase your comments- .

(1) anyone who believes in one God
Surly you mean the one true god here, believe in one god could not be enough. Like if I believe Jesus is god, does that count ?

There is only one God, so whatever you call God it's still God. It's the oneness that's important. Hmmm, Jesus never called himself God in the bible and actually talked to God - so unless he was talking to himself...
Personally, I believe that Allah knows each person's intimate soul and no-one is inside anyone elses head other than there own. If a person truly doesn't know that's different from disbelieving once you know- therefore rejecting your God when he offers you the truth on a plate as it were. For me personally, I believed, it wasn't a choice but a fact- I believed and I couldn't see any reason to deny what I genuinely believed was a better life path for myself. I believe that God is the Most Merciful, that makes him more merciful than the most merciful human- therefore I believe that a person should live their life to the best of their ability according to the belief system that they find the best and I don't believe that God is in any way unjust.

(

2)anyone with even an atoms weight of faith
Again, I take it you mean that an atoms weight of faith in Islam ie, 'There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah'

That's faith in God - I have found so much humility and fear in some non-Muslim friends and it is a fear of God- a faith in God and in my opinion more than an atoms weight of faith.

So, can I ask, would your christian family fit the requirement ?
:rolleyes: To be honest, I couldn't swan around all happy happy if I thought that my family were destined for a firey hell so ...no, I cannot believe that about my family. My family are Fab !

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginada
, You don't sit down with kids and start telling them about Hell, unless you're a bit nuts yourself-lol. All children go to Heaven according to Islam regardless of their actions as they are not responsible prior to puberty. Basically its a kinda do unto others what you would like people to do to you, kinda thing--y'now...even atheists will teach their kids morals and right from wrong. So, my kids are not being psychologically damaged by talk re: Hell.

Perhaps my understanding is wrong. I thought hell would be something you would want to warn your kids about. I teach my kids about safety in the road and talking to strangers so if hell is real for you whats the problem with teaching kids about it ? (of course at an age appropriate level)

Hmm, as you say, strangers and the rules of the road would be top of the agenda. My oldest is 16, they kinda get a bit curious about hell at around 6th class age and it's not like it's easy to get into hell, you'd have to be a murderer or something really bad to land there. It's not like the kids think that they're going there, they don't. Islamically you say bismillah irahman araheem---in the name of Allah the most gracious most merciful at the start of every prayer- thats 17 times a day that those words pass your lips- A big hadith in Islam is - RELIGION IS EASY, and it is...also KEEP TO THE MIDDLE PATH... my kids love Ben10 and Hannah Montana and have phones with songs on them, they're normal happy kids, full of fun and they are really close to my 4 brothers and their cousins and grandparents- they also have Muslim relatives and loads of cousins in Algeria. So they are really balanced Alhamdulilah(thank God).

I hope that was a bit of an answer to each question.
Slan
Gina:cool:

ginada

HI Simon
Could you explain to me the meaning behind these verses:

“Those who disbelieve among the People of the Book and the Polytheists, will be thrown in hellfire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures” (98:6).

That's if you disbelieve- that is that you know it's the truth but you reject it.

“Those people who say that God is the third of three (i.e. the Christian trinity) are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist.” (5:72)

A recent study showed that most Christians did not actually believe that Jesus is God .

If your Christian family, following exposure to Islam subsequently reject it, will they go to hell? i..e If they don't convert after you telling them about your faith are they destined for eternal pain and misery?

I was about 6months a Muslim and my grandad died--he was cremated which was distressing- I love my Grandad and I don't believe that he is in Hell. My family know I'm a Muslim and they respect my choice, I similarly accept their right to be whoever they want to be- nobody knows the future, I would be happy if my family became Muslim but if they don't I don't believe that they will be in Hell, I couldn't function if that was my belief, I would go insane, I love my family dearly and they love me.

I also assume you believe that your Atheist brother will end up in hell?

No, I've known him since he was born and I believe that Allah loves him, I would obviously like if he changed his mind, he's only in his 20's but if he died I could not believe that he would go to hell. If you think about it...if someone phoned you and said that someone poured petrol on a person you loved and they were going to light a match- you would risk your like to save them. So...if I did believe that they were destined for hell I would camp outside their front door and beg them day and night to become a Muslim. I'm a psychology student, I know how my mind works- I've tied up my loose ends- I'm not a hypocrite and my mind functions logically. I've studied Philosophy too which was like putting your brain in a blender...LOL:eek:
PM me your email so that you can help me with my thesis...please:D

DinoBot

ginada wrote: »

So, can I ask, would your christian family fit the requirement ?
:rolleyes: To be honest, I couldn't swan around all happy happy if I thought that my family were destined for a firey hell so ...no, I cannot believe that about my family. My family are Fab !

I dont think being "fab" is enough tbh.

I can understand the conflict of accepting you are "saved" but your family may be going to hell but to ignore it and simply say "most christians dont believe Jesus is god" and stuff is a bit silly.

Do you know the story of Abu Talib ?

---

When Muhammad reached 8 years. old, Abu Talib inherited his care as well as chiefdom of Banu Hashim as a result of the death of Abdul Muttalib. Abu Talib treated Muhammad as his very own son, and raised the young Muhammad with overwhelming love. Once Muhammad grew older, he began to work for his uncle, and he took responsibility for Abu Talib's son Ali ibn Abu Talib. Ali was among the first to accept the call to Islam

---

So when Abu Talib died the prophet tried to interseed with Allah and said:

"May be my intercession will help him (Abu Talib) on the Day of Resurrection so that he may be put in a shallow place in the Fire, with fire reaching his ankles and causing his brain to boil."

And in case your one of those who ignore Hadith when it suits, Allah's reply is in Quran:

It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113)

So if the prophet himself was forbidden to interseed for a man who was like a Dad to him what standing do you have for your christian family and Godless brother ?

ginada

Look, I do not believe that my family or any good people will be heading for hellfire because of a technicality, Allah is not like a judge in court who must follow what is written in the law. My parents pray to God and don't believe in the trinity- they are Ahl Al kitab - the people of the book---
The Qur'an also states that - among the prople of the book there are Muhmins (believers)- I could get you the quote but I presume that you already know it as you're quoting stuff a lot. It seems to me that I don't need to be here, I thought that maybe you needed info but it looks like you know enough. I'm off as I have a life to live and I absolutly can't stand fake debate which is generally what happens ....Certain people think that they've found a few 'holes' in Islam and that through these points they can upset Muslims and turn them into Christians...hmmm, only the ignorant would fall for that and I most certainly am not ignorant.
Look up Surah Al Kafiroon - the Chapter entitled- the disbelievers ----
To you be your religion and to me be mine.:)
Slan

ginada

Look, if you're going to act like you know it all, at least get your facts right...

It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113)

PAGANS- not ahl al kitab who are not PAGANS-- Abu Talib worshipped Idols, pieces of wood and he would not renounce the faith of his father, he wanted to remain with his tribe and wouldn't seperate from them, he knew the truth and disbelieved.
This ayah does not relate to Christians or Jews for that matter.

DinoBot

ginada wrote: »

Look, if you're going to act like you know it all, at least get your facts right...
It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113)

PAGANS- not ahl al kitab who are not PAGANS-- Abu Talib worshipped Idols, pieces of wood and he would not renounce the faith of his father, he wanted to remain with his tribe and wouldn't seperate from them, he knew the truth and disbelieved.
This ayah does not relate to Christians or Jews for that matter.

A technicality ........... I dont think disbelief in Allah is a technicality. But if it helps you sleep at night, go for it.


My intention was not to act like I know it all. I do know Islam. Hell is one of the reasons I dont except religion. I know there is a split of views on the concept of hell in Islam but the majority I have seen is that you need to

1. Believe in one god (not jesus, holy spirit ..etc)
2. Muhammod is his messenger

Anything else can be forgiven. That was my understanding. So when you said your family did not need this I was wondering if you had researched the issue. I agree that most disscussions on the web are pointless. I try simply to see someones views. You presended a view of Islam which IMO is not mainstream and I wanted to see if it was based on more that just hope.

And I think your godless brother would not fall into the category of "the people of the book" So the sura 9.113 would fit in that case.

Matt Holck

Jannah wrote: »

I love the way people post things like this with such a condescending tone while all the while their main message is 'I don't mean to offend you BUT you're a complete idiot'

lol

Jannah wrote: »

At the end of the day, everyone makes their own minds up and nobody knows what is to be of them until it's too late anyway.

I'm pretty sure I'll be washing dishes tomorrow
I think that's the zen response if not, I apologize for the misrepresentation.

as for brain washing
if the decimal point were censored,
I'd have to understand parts of numbers through fractions

Simon.d

Hi Gina,

ginada wrote: »

A recent study showed that most Christians did not actually believe that Jesus is God.

I don't know if that's true... One of the core tenets of Christian belief is that God comprises of three parts; Father, son and holy spirit.. . Unitarianism falls more in line with Islamic belief in that sense..

Another Quranic verse on this matter:
Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord* and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.(5:72)

hivizman

Simon.d wrote: »

Another Quranic verse on this matter:
Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord* and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.(5:72)

One of the main problems of studying Islam is that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, and no translation is definitive. The above verse, Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:72, is taken from the Rashad Khalifa translation, which claims to be the "Authorized English Translation" of the Qur'an, but certainly has nothing like the same status as the Authorized Version (King James) of the Bible. Indeed, as far as I can tell, the only "authorization" comes from Rashid Khalifa himself.

Transliterating the Arabic, the first three words of the verse are "laqad kafaral-ladhina", and the word that Khalifa translates as "pagans", which is "kafar", is probably better translated as "those who do not believe, even after Islam has been revealed to them". The Abdullah Yusuf Ali version, which is one of the most widely used translations, has "They do blaspheme", but both this and "pagans" are, in my opinion, too strong to use as accurate translations of the sense of the original Arabic.

Khalifa chose to translate "Allah" as "GOD" (which he put in capital letters) - other translators do something similar, for example Muhammad Asad uses "God" (only the "G" is capitalized). Islam has difficulties with both the doctrine of the Trinity and the ascription of divinity to Jesus, but that's a deep topic that I don't want to get into now. The words that Khalifa translates as "Anyone who sets up any idol besides GOD" are, in transliteration, "'Innahu many-yushrik billahi", with the key word being derived from "shirk". This is the worst sin in Islam - "establishing partners with God". It does not necessarily have to involve establishing "idols", and Abdullah Yusuf Ali comes closer by translating the words as "whoever joins other gods with Allah".

This becomes more important when we translate Sura At-Tawbah 9:113, because the word translated as "pagans" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and by Rashad Khalifa is "mushrikin", which is more closely translated as "polytheists" - those who associate partners with God. Are "people of the Book" polytheists? No - Judaism and Christianity are monotheistic religions. The first line of the Nicene Creed is "I believe in one God". Are atheists polytheists? If you don't believe in any god, you can't believe in many gods.

994

Jannah wrote: »

Would you be able to write it in such an eloquent way that the English language itself would be based on your writings? Would you unearth some new scientific discoveries? Oh, and while you're at it, not have one single contradiction or mistake and be the basis of the second largest religion in the world? Nope, thought not.

Shakespeare had a colossal impact on the English language and literature; probably equivalent to the Qu'ran on Arabic. The Qu'ran contains several mistakes and contradictions, you can Google it.

There is also nothing to disprove the afterlife and if you believe that you just get 70 or 80 years of life and then you just die and turn into dust and nothing happens, off you go, but that's not my belief of it

There is nothing to prove the afterlife either.

What you've just described it the subjugation of women that is the west. In Islam, the woman dresses so as not to arouse such thoughts in others and secondly, the man is asked to lower his gaze and not be so animalistic and degrading as to see her as a piece of meat. If we didn't control our sexual desires, people would be running around raping other people left right and centre. From http://www.redorbit.com

Interesting, seeing as Muslims rape so many Swedish women. After all, they deserve for exposing more than 1% of their skin. http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html And you'll be here whining when the Swedes carry out pogroms some day...

That's the stupidest theory I have ever in my life seen. Muslims are have nuts like you telling them that they're brainwashed, are being portrayed as subjugated or wife beaters, are having bombs thrown down on their houses and are being mass murdered in Palestine BUT NOOOOOOOO, they're angry because of a LACK OF SEX.

Studies have shown that there are two things that will produce a violent society: heavy physical chastisement of children, and sexual repression of adolescent males.

Muslims are more passionate about their beliefs and while the violent protests were completely wrong, so were his actions in insulting Islam. Not ALL Muslims reacted with violence and it would be wrong of you to label it in that way. If Christians cared about their religion, they would make their voices heard when something wrong is done to offend their faith- not that they get picked on as much as Muslims do.

Secondly, Islam DOESN'T routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west- some unorthadox Muslims do. Not all Muslims are perfect in following their beliefs and Islam wouldn't advocate lies- Muhammad himself was renouned for his honesty and was given the name "Al-Ameen" which means "The Trustworthy".

Islam doesn't spew hate and lies against Jews? Maybe because the Qu'ran already does so.