Do you consider yourselves Brainwashed?

ginada

A technicality ........... I dont think disbelief in Allah is a technicality. But if it helps you sleep at night, go for it.

I did not say that disbelief in Allah is a technicality--
My parents believe in GOD- ALLAH, la ilaha ilAllah and as I said for them it may be enough as I don't think that they understand Islam, If they did I have no doubt that they would accept it. There is time... when they are old I will take care of them InshaAllah, they will live with me and I pray that Allah will open their hearts to Islam. :rolleyes:

AbuBakr

hivizman wrote: »

Transliterating the Arabic, the first three words of the verse are "laqad kafaral-ladhina", and the word that Khalifa translates as "pagans", which is "kafar", is probably better translated as "those who do not believe, even after Islam has been revealed to them".

The "Kuffar" are those who know what Islam is and reject it. They are ungrateful for what Almighty Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) has revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). Allah knows best who among the People of the Book believe in One God without partners, pray, give in charity, follow what is right and reject what is wrong. Can we really denounce people who have not heard in detail the glorious truth of Islam as "kuffar"?

hivizman wrote: »

. . . the word translated as "pagans" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and by Rashad Khalifa is "mushrikin", which is more closely translated as "polytheists" - those who associate partners with God.

Sadly, in this world, too many people worship "gods" other than the One, the Creator of all that is. They worship money, they worship power, they worship sex. So the modern mushrikin do not bow down before stone idols, but rather they abase themselves before pop idols.

We wash things to make them clean and remove impurities. So I pray that Allah is indeed washing my brain from all that is sinful, and guiding me on the straight path.

DinoBot

ginada wrote: »

I did not say that disbelief in Allah is a technicality--

I must has misunderstood, what was the technicality ?

ginada

Hi Hivizman
Originally Posted by hivizman

Transliterating the Arabic, the first three words of the verse are "laqad kafaral-ladhina", and the word that Khalifa translates as "pagans", which is "kafar", is probably better translated as "those who do not believe, even after Islam has been revealed to them".

Please... your Arabic must be really bad if you think that Khalifa is Pagans.
The Khalifa is the leader of the Muslims, at the moment Muslims are so divided that we don't have a Khalifa or leader. Immediately after the Prophets death there were Abu Bakr and Uthman -- problems over the Khalifa led to the Shi'a braking away as a sect.
and...laqad kafaral-laddhina is not the first 3 lines of Surat alkafiroon, get your facts right when quoting qur'an :mad:. It's not rocket science just pay attention to what you're doing...:mad:
Quran Chapter 109 - Quran Translation of Surah Al-Kafiroon (The Disbelievers)

1Say to the disbelievers.
2"I worship not that which you worship,
3"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4"And I shall not worship that which you are
worshipping.
5"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6"To you be your religion, and to me my religion."



to all the people who take verses here and there out of
context-this is what Islam says re:disbelievers. When
you read Qur'an Allah is talking to you--worry about yourself
first.

ginada

Hi Dinobot,
Some people particularily some Born again Christian friends of mine and somr Jehovas witnesses, seem to think that it's like a secret passsword entry sysstem into heaven---do you believe Jesus is God? Yes, in ya go- regardless of your actions or Is your God called Jehova and not just Jesus? Yes, then you are saved and all the other people who didn't aswer the question correctly are burned eternally---sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Allah/God makes decisions intelligently not just because you tick a few boxes- technicalitys.
I do not believe that just because I became a Muslim that I am saved from Hell Fire, of course I'm not, I'm in the same boat as everyone else but the guidelines that I CHOOSE to obey keep me on the straight and narrow- sirat al mustikeem. I don't drink, don't smoke, wear a scarf and long clothes, no make-up and I take good care of myself, my hubby and my 6 kids whilst also studying for a BA(hons) degree, I'm working hard to try and be a good person and the strict guidelines of Islam keep me focused, it's helpful to me and I'm happy and content, my heart is soft, I don't hate, I don't judge and I don't feel superior to any other human on this planet as only Allah knows what is in our hearts and I reckon on judgement day there will be a lot of people getting into heaven that didn't think they had a chance, because of their humility and people who thought that they had a free pass are excluded because of PRIDE and haughtyness which is a sin in Islam. Anyway, gotta get back to my studies.
Slan.

DinoBot

ginada wrote: »

I take good care of myself, my hubby and my 6 kids whilst also studying for a BA(hons) degree, I'm working hard to try and be a good person

I think that alone should give you a free pass

Thanks, I think I got where you were coming from. For the record, I'm not christian.

hivizman

ginada wrote: »

Hi Hivizman
Please... your Arabic must be really bad if you think that Khalifa is Pagans.
The Khalifa is the leader of the Muslims, at the moment Muslims are so divided that we don't have a Khalifa or leader. Immediately after the Prophets death there were Abu Bakr and Uthman -- problems over the Khalifa led to the Shi'a braking away as a sect.
and...laqad kafaral-laddhina is not the first 3 lines of Surat alkafiroon, get your facts right when quoting qur'an :mad:. It's not rocket science just pay attention to what you're doing...:mad:

Did you actually read my full post (#30 in this thread)? I clearly said that (1) I was referring to Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:72, (2) I was discussing a translation by someone called Rashad Khalifa, (3) the word that Khalifa translated as "pagans" was a grammatical form of "kafir". Nowhere in my post do I refer to Sura Al-Kafirun.

I thought that I was actually lending support, by pointing out that the translations used by other posters may not fairly reflect the sense of the Arabic text of the Qur'an, to your suggestion that your Christian and atheist family are not automatically doomed to hellfire. I am sad that you did not do me the courtesy of reading the full post (rather than a few words taken out of context by another poster) before suggesting that I was not paying attention.

book smarts

Jannah wrote: »

Since the basis of religion is highly historical, I doubt that very much. The Qur'an knew of scientfic facts long before any ordinary human being came to a conclusion on it by studying about it, including about fault lines in the earth, sea floor spreading, iron within the earth, the Big Bang, the formation of mountains etc
http://www.55a.net/en/miracles/a047.php

How could a book "know" of these things? By osmosis? People gain scientific knowledge of the world by doing experiments, not by making it up in some book. We know about fault lines, sea floor spreading etc because of the work of Geologists is the last few centuries. If these were written in a book from more than a thousand years ago then its mere coincidence, like Nostradamus.

I've never met an Iman and my family knows nothing about Islam, so you're theory is, again, wrong. I have had very little contact with actual Muslims in Cork and that was only when I initiated it myself. So who, by your standards, is 'brainwashing' me? Islam most definititely wasn't 'some cult that approached me in the street' so don't even go there

You brainwashed yourself

Science has failed to explain everything in the earth and for as long as there is the inexplainable, there will be religion that gives people the answers. Why not just leave it at that? Because religion is the foundation of many peoples' morals, cultures and a great support to them in times of deaths or tragedy. If you don't want to believe that there is a God, that's your problem, but the fact is that you must allow people to continue their faiths and neither your atheism nor their religion should be disrupted while each individual is leading a morally constructive life that doesn't interfere in a negative way with others. Insulting them by calling them 'brainwashed' only heightens the fact that you are ignorant.

So if I don't believe in God, that's now a "problem"? Religion should be disrupted- why? -because it's nonsense. Every bit of it. People say you have the right to believe whatever you want, but if you do that, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously. If I went around saying I believed in a magic teapot that circled the earth, you'd think I was a nutter, yet if you go around believing in some book whose writer claimed was the word of god- everyone has to accept that? That doesn't make any sense.

'As ideas came into his head' is so ridiculous on so many levels. My last post explaining Muhammad's illiteracy, it's 24 years of narration without fault or contradition, its scientific proofs that were yet unknown to humans, its perfect Arabic script etc all explains why the Qur'an is indeed a divine source

A "scientific proof unknown to humans", is by definition, not a scientific proof, just conjecture.

Firstly, Islam is not a cult.

Yes it is, just a large one. Just as Christianity is a cult. When it started it was one of many small ones that existed in the region. for various reasons it got a foothold, just like Islam.

Secondly, if someone was a Muslim, it would not be 'unproven dogma'

Nothing in the book is proven. Nothing. It's all just blindly accepted as "the truth". Oh there are silly little arguments about it's meaning, but it's like arguing over what flavour of cheese the moon is made of.

Thirdly, I would have absolutely no problem with my children learning to recide the Qur'an

Then they will be as brainwashed as you.

HA! Okay, women in the west may consider themselves 'liberated'

Exactly. Need I say more?

Could I not say that, by your definition, you are brainwashed by "The God Delusion"? For one thing, you keep spewing this teapot crap which you wouldn't have thought of had it not been for Dawkins, therefore it has infiltrated your mind and you're obviously swayed by its opinions.

I merely agree with the bleedin obvious!

It's the afterlife that atheists need to worry about

Lol @this! Just lol.

There is also nothing to disprove the afterlife and if you believe that you just get 70 or 80 years of life and then you just die and turn into dust and nothing happens, off you go, but that's not my belief of it

Why lie to yourself? How can you lie to yourself like that?

What you've just described it the subjugation of women that is the west.

Again, this makes no sense?! If a women in Islam doesn't cover up she'll be ostracised, spat on, called a whore, or worse.

people having sex outside marriage does harm them and others a lot more than you think

Never did me or anyone I know any harm at all. Not having sex though can cause much frustration

they're angry because of a LACK OF SEX.

Yes I think many of them are. Teenage boys who aren't allowed near women? They must be fuming!

Lol "You should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about westerners’ sex habits on Saudi TV!!" - well maybe you should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about Muslims on Western TV.

At least we don't claim you have sex with animals, as is claimed on their TV about the west, or promote suicide martyrdom as on Palestinians' kids TV.

Having sex with a burka on? What the hell? What sort of weird porn have you been watching??

So I hear.

Well if we're using that logic then based on the US, Christianity must mean fornication, clubbing, adultery, use of guns by minors and all those lovely incidents that we hear to often about. Yet if something happens in the Middle East it's immediately a 'Muslim Problem"

Not necessarily.

So following your logic, you've been brainwashed by atheism.

No, just common sense!

who in their right mind would continue living a lie and saying 5 prayers a day?

Exactly.

Agathon

book smarts wrote: »

How could a book "know" of these things? By osmosis? People gain scientific knowledge of the world by doing experiments, not by making it up in some book. We know about fault lines, sea floor spreading etc because of the work of Geologists is the last few centuries. If these were written in a book from more than a thousand years ago then its mere coincidence, like Nostradamus.

We believe the Creator has knowledge of these things and has revealed them to the Prophet's as a proof of their prophethood. You either believe they were liars or they were telling the truth. That's it. End of story. Why do you believe they were liars? Did you read any proper accounts of their biography? Are you so arrogant as to say that you know what was before the big bang and after death?? That's arrogance! You've brainwashed yourself. Keep believing what you believe but why try to convert/brainwash other people to your way of life?? Your arrogance has got to your head even though you haven't a clue where you came from? why you're here? and where you're going??

So if I don't believe in God, that's now a "problem"? Religion should be disrupted- why? -because it's nonsense. Every bit of it. People say you have the right to believe whatever you want, but if you do that, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously. If I went around saying I believed in a magic teapot that circled the earth, you'd think I was a nutter, yet if you go around believing in some book whose writer claimed was the word of god- everyone has to accept that? That doesn't make any sense.

Believe in a tea-pot, believe in three gods, believe in hundreds of gods; Can you back your belief with a reliable source? Even though you haven't read the Qur'an properly with an open mind, you haven't read the biography of the prophet Muhammed (even from Islamic sources), haven't enquired genuinly about the belief system, or can't even grasp the basic principles of Islam, you reject it and insult its followers. Maybe you've had bad experiences with other religions but you must genuinly analyze Islam (from proper sources and knowledgeable scholars) before making up your mind about it. Do you agree?

A "scientific proof unknown to humans", is by definition, not a scientific proof, just conjecture.

Everything about the environment before the big bang is conjecture, everything about what happens after we die is conjecture, everything that is beyond our grasp is conjecture. You follow nothing but conjecture, wether you like it or not. If you think otherwise you're fooling yourself (or in your words 'brainwashing' yourself)

Yes it is, just a large one. Just as Christianity is a cult. When it started it was one of many small ones that existed in the region. for various reasons it got a foothold, just like Islam.

Every single religion on this planet started off as a simple message from the Creator: 'There is a Creator' - That's it, so simple a child would understand it. That was the main message of every single Prophet. You don't have to accept it. This message was corrupted by humans throughout the ages (free-will & life).

Nothing in the book is proven. Nothing. It's all just blindly accepted as "the truth". Oh there are silly little arguments about it's meaning, but it's like arguing over what flavour of cheese the moon is made of.

Could you back up your argument with an actual example from the book? Is this what you mean by 'brainwashing yourself to believe what you're saying to yourself?' You're confused and seem to be contradicting yourself
In fact the exact same thing can be thrown in your face: Why do you lie to yourself? How can you lie to yourself like that about life after death, etc.? Do you seriously know what was before the big bang and what's going to happen to you after you die??

Again, this makes no sense?! If a women in Islam doesn't cover up she'll be ostracised, spat on, called a whore, or worse.

Have you ever asked a Muslim woman about this? This is a simple one to actually figure out in Islam. There's bound to be Muslim women who wear head scarves or even burqa in your area. All you have to do is genuinly ask and they'll explain this one to you. It's not a mystery. Don't believe everything you read or hear on fox news! Ask and you'll realise that 90% of the false propaganda was rubbish.

Never did me or anyone I know any harm at all. Not having sex though can cause much frustration

Who said Muslims don't have sex?? Muslims try to marry at an early age (16 onwards). This was a basic message of Islam: To marry and avoid adultery. A marriage in Islam is like a contract between wife and husband. It can be completed as quickly as being boyfreind and girlfriend with the consent of parents or witnesses. It's smple to marry and simple to divorce, but as humans with rights (accountability in the hereafter) we try to take it seriously. Just ask ordinary Muslims instead of assuming things and making conjectures about the belief.

At least we don't claim you have sex with animals, as is claimed on their TV about the west, or promote suicide martyrdom as on Palestinians' kids TV.

Welcome to mass media. Believe what you want but try to back it up with sources and analyzing things properly. I don't agree with some things that the media decides to broadcast but I don't have to believe it. You must ask actual Muslims about their belief. They should direct you to a knowledgeable scholar. You should also read books and try to make up your own mind. Don't believe everything you hear, see or read (without proper sources).

No, just common sense!

your arrogance surfaces once again!

ginada

Hivizman
when you're wrong admit it- you're translating the qur'an incorrectly you muppet--yes - muppet as in Jim henson's muppets--lol
Khalifah never ever means pagans - grammatical blah blah- shut up!
I can't stand it when people give incorrect translations of words or meaning of Qur'an---have you any idea of the weight of such a deed--to translate Khalifa as pagan, please.....cop on and learn Arabic.
Slan

Jannah

Firstly, to Book Smarts- below are the forum rules- I suggest you READ them.

Let me make something absolutly clear in this forum. It is for the open discussion of the religon for those who are following it or for those who may have honest questions about it. IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO VENT, OR FOR MUSLIMS TO HAVE TO DEFEND THIER FAITH FROM ATTACK.


3. The following is NOT ALLOWED. You will be temp banned with a possible outright permanent ban posting any of these subjects.

• Converts. This applies to all sides.
• Garbage (eg. muslim = suicide bomber, telling people they are brainwashed).
• Any offensive posts.
• Attacks on other posters (always attack the post, not the poster)
• Attacks or belittling any religon.
• Fanaticism. This applies to all sides.
• Unsoliticed Private Messages to members to bypass a rule.
• Linking off to a blog/webpage to bypass a rule (eg. Insulting another boards poster).

4. You are free to ask questions, however if you make accusations you will be expected to back them up with facts especially if you are asked to (even if it is later proven to show those facts are flawed then that is acceptable). Refusing to back up your accusations will result in a warning then a ban.

994 wrote: »

Shakespeare had a colossal impact on the English language and literature; probably equivalent to the Qu'ran on Arabic. The Qu'ran contains several mistakes and contradictions, you can Google it.

I highly doubt that Shakespeare's additions to English are equivilant to Muhammad's- he may have had some pretty phrases, but grammatically the Qur'an was revolutionary. It is believed by Muslims that the Qur'an doesn't contain mistakes and contradictions and I can be assured that if I googled 'mistakes in the Qur'an' I would simply get some completely out of context snippets.

994 wrote: »

Interesting, seeing as Muslims rape so many Swedish women. After all, they deserve for exposing more than 1% of their skin. http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html And you'll be here whining when the Swedes carry out pogroms some day...

So you're saying these men only rape because they are Muslim? Right, well firstly, that's not only a stupid thing to say but a horrendously insulting thing on top of that for all Muslim males on this board AND the Muslim females married to them so you may want to take that garbage elsewhere. If your sole reason for being on this board is to spew Islamaphobic ideas, it's the wrong place. Secondly, rape is not a crime of lust, it is simply disgusting people who seek to have power over someone else and it is completely forbidden in Islam, with the punishment being death. There are billions of Muslims in this world and if you want to pick out a minority who behave badly, that's your problem for being so narrowminded. This site it specifically targeted at insulting and degrading Muslims and is an extremely poor point of reference

994 wrote: »

Studies have shown that there are two things that will produce a violent society: heavy physical chastisement of children, and sexual repression of adolescent males.

Really? Well in my opinion, bad societies are caused by promiscuity, single mothers and sexually transmitted infections. The vast majority of adolescent males that I know aren't having sex yet they're not beating down the walls in sexual frustration- they're not animals! Also, I would like you to explain this: "heavy physical chastisement of children" - how exactly would this apply to Muslims?

994 wrote: »

Islam doesn't spew hate and lies against Jews? Maybe because the Qu'ran already does so.

I would ask you to back up your 'facts' but I know that you'll just take verses out of context without even trying to find out what they mean, so bother? Also, may I add that Muhammad MARRIED A JEW- I think that says it all

book smarts wrote: »

How could a book "know" of these things? By osmosis? People gain scientific knowledge of the world by doing experiments, not by making it up in some book. We know about fault lines, sea floor spreading etc because of the work of Geologists is the last few centuries. If these were written in a book from more than a thousand years ago then its mere coincidence, like Nostradamus.

Highly well narrated and accurate 'coincidences' wouldn't you think? Believe what you will, but I think they're far too specific to be mere 'coincidences'.

book smarts wrote: »

You brainwashed yourself

Gee whiz, thanks for the heads up on that- perhaps you may want to consider 'brainwashing' yourself with the charter rules, hmmm?

book smarts wrote: »

So if I don't believe in God, that's now a "problem"?

Meh, I think arrogance is your biggest problem, maybe you may like to go about fixing that before discovering others

book smarts wrote: »

Religion should be disrupted- why? -because it's nonsense. Every bit of it. People say you have the right to believe whatever you want, but if you do that, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously.

Read forum charter- again! Hey, I'd like to tell you a secret- this is a RELIGOUS forum! "No way!" I hear you say- but YES! It is! And in fact, believe it or not, it is an ISLAMIC forum too! "Get out of town!" Yep, so perhaps you got lost on the way to the atheists and agnostics forum, but I would like to take this moment to kindly redirect you

book smarts wrote: »

A "scientific proof unknown to humans", is by definition, not a scientific proof, just conjecture.

A proof known by Allah and revealed to humans- what would that be, now?

book smarts wrote: »

Yes it is, just a large one. Just as Christianity is a cult. When it started it was one of many small ones that existed in the region. for various reasons it got a foothold, just like Islam.

Then why haven't you been dissing 'cults' all along? After all, isn't 'religion' non existant then? Perhaps you should start your own teapot cult, where everyone doens't read charter rules and going on websites specifically to tell everyone that they must be brainwashed because they're NOT THINKING THE EXACT SAME THING AS YOU. Then you can get out your pendulum and make us ALL believe what you believe in too!

book smarts wrote: »

Exactly. Need I say more?

Well I think we can surmise that you don't understand the difference between "THINKING you're 'liberated'" and actually BEING liberated. :rolleyes: Personally, I feel a woman who covers of her own choice is a million times more liberated than some page 3 model or beauty pageant girl who's paraded half naked in front of the world

book smarts wrote: »

Again, this makes no sense?! If a women in Islam doesn't cover up she'll be ostracised, spat on, called a whore, or worse.

You actually need to TALK to a Muslim woman sometime before making stupid statements like this. If someone ostracises, spits on or calls a woman a whore, he/she is not a true Muslim. A woman can't have her reputation ruined unless she is see having sex by FOUR eyewitnesses- so that, in our society, would be confined to porn stars and perhaps some prostitutes- and who can argue with that??? It's a woman's choice to wear hijab and if she is being forced, it's invalid and contradictory to Islam because Allah knows our true intentions for doing things.

book smarts wrote: »

Never did me or anyone I know any harm at all. Not having sex though can cause much frustration

A single teenage mother with a baby can also cause 'much frustration'. You must look beyond yourself and see the wider impact of what these things have on society. Also, I would think that premarital sex effects women worse than men because they form a stronger emotional bond after sex, and when the man is gone- it's just tough luck in your world, isn't it?

book smarts wrote: »

Yes I think many of them are. Teenage boys who aren't allowed near women? They must be fuming!

Once again, a stupid suggestion- I have yet to talk to an 'angry' Muslim man who's so horned up he's 'fuming'. I've found Muslim men very kind and placid, as a matter of fact! Perhaps you may want to meet one for yourself before throwing out such ridiculous suggestions.

book smarts wrote: »

So I hear.

Ho ho, this is TOO GOOD- so you're ACTUALLY telling me that you REALLY believe that WOMEN HAVE SEX IN BURKAS because you HEARD it???? Well maybe you should start using Hello magazine as your history book at that rate!! And then YOU have the audacity to criticise Muslims for basing their beliefs on a book from Allah, when YOU get YOUR facts from hearsay!!!

I said: "Well if we're using that logic then based on the US, Christianity must mean fornication, clubbing, adultery, use of guns by minors and all those lovely incidents that we hear to often about. Yet if something happens in the Middle East it's immediately a 'Muslim Problem" "

you replied:

book smarts wrote: »

Not necessarily.

Care to expand on that a little?!?!

hivizman

Dear Ginada,

As you could not be bothered to do the simple act of clicking on the link to my previous post and then reading it, I have saved you the trouble by copying it here.

hivizman wrote: »

One of the main problems of studying Islam is that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, and no translation is definitive. The above verse, Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:72, is taken from the Rashad Khalifa translation, which claims to be the "Authorized English Translation" of the Qur'an, but certainly has nothing like the same status as the Authorized Version (King James) of the Bible. Indeed, as far as I can tell, the only "authorization" comes from Rashid Khalifa himself.

Transliterating the Arabic, the first three words of the verse are "laqad kafaral-ladhina", and the word that Khalifa translates as "pagans", which is "kafar", is probably better translated as "those who do not believe, even after Islam has been revealed to them". The Abdullah Yusuf Ali version, which is one of the most widely used translations, has "They do blaspheme", but both this and "pagans" are, in my opinion, too strong to use as accurate translations of the sense of the original Arabic.

Khalifa chose to translate "Allah" as "GOD" (which he put in capital letters) - other translators do something similar, for example Muhammad Asad uses "God" (only the "G" is capitalized). Islam has difficulties with both the doctrine of the Trinity and the ascription of divinity to Jesus, but that's a deep topic that I don't want to get into now. The words that Khalifa translates as "Anyone who sets up any idol besides GOD" are, in transliteration, "'Innahu many-yushrik billahi", with the key word being derived from "shirk". This is the worst sin in Islam - "establishing partners with God". It does not necessarily have to involve establishing "idols", and Abdullah Yusuf Ali comes closer by translating the words as "whoever joins other gods with Allah".

This becomes more important when we translate Sura At-Tawbah 9:113, because the word translated as "pagans" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and by Rashad Khalifa is "mushrikin", which is more closely translated as "polytheists" - those who associate partners with God. Are "people of the Book" polytheists? No - Judaism and Christianity are monotheistic religions. The first line of the Nicene Creed is "I believe in one God". Are atheists polytheists? If you don't believe in any god, you can't believe in many gods.

ginada wrote:

when you're wrong admit it

Don't dig yourself deeper into the hole you are already in. I simply stated in my first post that a person called Rashad Khalifa translated the Arabic word "kafar" in Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:72 into English as "pagans". I then questioned the accuracy of this translation. If you want to debate the translation of words in the Quran derived from the root "k-f-r", then we could do that, but don't get annoyed about a "mistake" that wasn't there in the first place.

hivizman

I see that Jannah has just posted this on the Islamic Terrorism thread:

Jannah wrote:

Kafurs are people who have been presented with Islam and have rejected it.

Pretty much how I interpreted it in my earlier posting in this thread.

book smarts

Agathon wrote: »

Why do you believe they were liars? Did you read any proper accounts of their biography? Are you so arrogant as to say that you know what was before the big bang and after death?? That's arrogance!

Why do you believe it's the truth?
You're going off on a rant here! I never claimed to know what was before the big bang, or after death.

Believe in a tea-pot, believe in three gods, believe in hundreds of gods; Can you back your belief with a reliable source?

Yes, I can. I have a book called the "Teapot" written 2000 years ago. Does that sound reasonable?

you reject it and insult its followers.

Are you going to riot now? You see this is the thing. You merely discuss Islam and if they don't like what you are saying, you're "insulting" it. This stifles all discussion, like a totalitarian dictatorship. I didn't insult it, and I could argue that you've "insulted" me by calling me arrogant and brainwashed, if you want to go down that road. We have free speech here, unlike in Muslim countries, so until the UN gets it's dodgy resolution in banning it, we will use it. Muslims say whatever they like about Jews and Christians.

Why do you lie to yourself? How can you lie to yourself like that about life after death, etc.?

I don't lie to myself. You do though. If you REALLY believed in the afterlife, you'd be happy to die now, wouldn't you? Or do you doubt it just a little bit?!

There's bound to be Muslim women who wear head scarves or even burqa in your area. All you have to do is genuinly ask and they'll explain this one to you.

I thought Muslim women weren't allowed to talk to unrelated men under penalty of stoning? Wouldn't an honour killing be called for then? I wouldn't dare approach one in case some muslim man sees us and she'd be disgraced.

It's smple to marry and simple to divorce,

For men, not for women.

but as humans with rights (accountability in the hereafter) we try to take it seriously.

There is no "hereafter". Did you exist before you were born? No. So why would you exist after death?

Welcome to mass media. Believe what you want but try to back it up with sources and analyzing things properly. I don't agree with some things that the media decides to broadcast but I don't have to believe it. You must ask actual Muslims about their belief. They should direct you to a knowledgeable scholar. You should also read books and try to make up your own mind. Don't believe everything you hear, see or read (without proper sources).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPb1bF-s4M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZT7Fe1HpoE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWHZmxAcNfc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzXXi7BCDOE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLTYPbd4lPc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxgicdtyhB4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ked90K85w&feature=related


Jannah, pity you have to resort to the rules. I guess when you can't argue with logic, you can just win by cheating.

Nodin

book smarts wrote: »

We have free speech here, unlike in Muslim countries, so until the UN gets it's dodgy resolution in banning it, we will use it.

What UN resolution would that be?

Jannah

book smarts wrote: »

Why do you believe it's the truth?
You're going off on a rant here! I never claimed to know what was before the big bang, or after death.

Well you seem pretty damn sure of yourself that they don't exist

book smarts wrote: »

Are you going to riot now? You see this is the thing. You merely discuss Islam and if they don't like what you are saying, you're "insulting" it.

HA! You think you're having a 'discussion'??? You've insulted both Islam and Muslims very personally for the ENTIRE TIME! You have said:
All Muslims/ people with a religion are brainwashed
Islam is a 'cult'
Muslim women have sex in burkas
Hijab oppresses women
Muslims are 'angry' because they are 'sexually oppressed'
Islam routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west
Honour killings are 'acceptable' in Islam
and you insinuated that Muslim women "live in fear of their cruel husband who beats them like cattle and wont let them out of the house."

Yet oh gee whiz, why are Muslims getting so upset??

book smarts wrote: »

This stifles all discussion, like a totalitarian dictatorship.

Uuugh, quite the anarchic crap- it doesn't stifle discussion, it makes sure people like YOU can't propagate hate and lies about Islam on this forum. If you don't want to abide by the rules, then you can take you're misguided opinions elsewhere- discussion is allowed, but you're obviously not remotely interested in discussion, you simply want to tell all people with a religion that they're stupid

book smarts wrote: »

We have free speech here, unlike in Muslim countries

We have rules here, and btw, free speech and simply wanting to be defamatory are two VERY different things

book smarts wrote: »

I don't lie to myself. You do though. If you REALLY believed in the afterlife, you'd be happy to die now, wouldn't you? Or do you doubt it just a little bit?!

Yes I really believe in the afterlife and obviously I'm not a tool and enjoy living aswell- what a stupid question. You- or anyone else for that matter- has absolutely no right to say what I do or do not believe so give it a rest.

book smarts wrote: »

I thought Muslim women weren't allowed to talk to unrelated men under penalty of stoning? Wouldn't an honour killing be called for then? I wouldn't dare approach one in case some muslim man sees us and she'd be disgraced.

Firstly, honour killing is forbidden in Islam (as I have ALREADY explained, so I'm not going to go into that again). Since when do Muslim women get stoned for talking to a man?!? Muslim women are allowed to give non-relative men dawah (advice on Islamic issues) provided the women are dressed modestly (which they would be anyway if they were out in public). Of course, you'll probably just tell her she's oppressed and brainwashed anyway, so I wouldn't bother her :rolleyes:

book smarts wrote: »

Jannah, pity you have to resort to the rules. I guess when you can't argue with logic, you can just win by cheating.

And YOU obviously feel the need to insult to 'win'- when if fact there's no 'winning' or 'losing'- I don't know what you are trying to achieve going on an Islamic forum to completely debase both Muslims and their religion (seems a pretty stupid thing to do in the first place). 'Logic' doesn't even come into it for you- if you wanted to be logical you'd post your rants on religion in the atheist and agnostics forum and you wouldn't have disguised your statement that we are all apparently 'brainwashed' behind a question like a coward

book smarts

Jannah wrote: »

HA! You think you're having a 'discussion'??? You've insulted both Islam and Muslims very personally for the ENTIRE TIME!

You have said:
All Muslims/ people with a religion are brainwashed Yes they are, just admit it.
Islam is a 'cult' As are all religions
Muslim women have sex in burkas Some do I'm sure!
Hijab oppresses women Most western women would agree
Muslims are 'angry' because they are 'sexually oppressed' Refer to that post by someone connecting violence with physical chastisement of kids, and sexual repression in young men
Islam routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west have a look at some of those vids I posted. There are plenty more on youtube
Honour killings are 'acceptable' in Islam In some countries, yes. Only a few days ago the president of the semi autonomous region of Chechnya in Russia said they were acceptable
and you insinuated that Muslim women "live in fear of their cruel husband who beats them like cattle and wont let them out of the house." Again i suggest you look at those clips posted, some respected imam or elder actually advising men how to beat their wives.

All those things are facts (except for the burka thing- which is quite a funny image actually). Why is the statement of those facts so insulting? Because they hit a raw nerve? Maybe if instead of being so touchy and easily taking offense and using violence at the drop of a hat they tried to change things.

Agathon

book smarts wrote: »

Why do you believe it's the truth?
You're going off on a rant here! I never claimed to know what was before the big bang, or after death.

I believe it's the truth because I've researched and analyzed it, and have come to that conclusion through reason and logic. The question is why do you think they (Abraham, Moses, Muhammed, peace be upon them) are liars? Is it because you heard it from somebody else or just think it doesn't make sense or what??

Yes, I can. I have a book called the "Teapot" written 2000 years ago. Does that sound reasonable?

Show me the book, I'll read it and get back to you. I'll see if you're reasonable or just an idiot!

Are you going to riot now? You see this is the thing. You merely discuss Islam and if they don't like what you are saying, you're "insulting" it. This stifles all discussion, like a totalitarian dictatorship...

But you're the one that's calling me brainwashed? I merely said how come you're not brainwashed? - Is it because you know the unseen?

I don't lie to myself. You do though. If you REALLY believed in the afterlife, you'd be happy to die now, wouldn't you? Or do you doubt it just a little bit?!

Why don't you lie to yourself? - that's what I mean by arrogance! We're both humans with the same mind. Who said I'm not happy to die now?? - I'm 100% certain that the Qur'an is the Truth. And that has been the challenge of the Qur'an for the past 1400 years. If you can find any error in the Qur'an then I will follow your way. That should be easy since it has been written by an illiterate Arab (surely you can analyze it for yourslef without having to use google or following a bunch of atheists because you think that's been reasonable). I can find many errors in the Bible we have today and other so-called books that claim to be truth...

I thought Muslim women weren't allowed to talk to unrelated men under penalty of stoning? Wouldn't an honour killing be called for then? I wouldn't dare approach one in case some muslim man sees us and she'd be disgraced.

Don't worry about that; If you have a question for a Muslim woman she can answer it for you. If she's caught having sex with you that's a different story. Ask her about that too if you want. You seem to be assuming a lot of things from whatever you read or watch!

For men, not for women.

Ask her about that too!

There is no "hereafter". Did you exist before you were born? No. So why would you exist after death?

Just as you came into this life surprised, you will be surprised...

I haven't checked your youtube vids. I'll check them later.

I think you're jumping all over the place and getting confused (you're kind-of ignorant about the basics of Islam) so I suggest choose the core of the subject, like: 'Belief in God,' and then work from there instead of jumping into the middle (jurisprudence & acts) and trying to figure out what's going on around you!

Jannah, pity you have to resort to the rules. I guess when you can't argue with logic, you can just win by cheating.

And What is your logic exactly?

Jannah

book smarts wrote: »

All those things are facts (except for the burka thing- which is quite a funny image actually). Why is the statement of those facts so insulting? Because they hit a raw nerve? Maybe if instead of being so touchy and easily taking offense and using violence at the drop of a hat they tried to change things.

Facts? Really? Well since you fancy yourself as having such a scientifically channelled mind, I find that pretty hard to believe that you would consider these 'facts' since you have no statistics to prove them. YouTube, my dear, does not count as a relevent source and just because one Iman has an opinion on something doesn't mean it's necessarily the Islamic point of view. Islam doesn't have a Pope who decides everything on behalf of everybody else- it is a religion which stresses one's individual relationship with God and if you don't go back to the source, you will- as usual- be simple relying on hearsay as a crutch to your twisted opinions.

You need to open your eyes and stop being so gullible to what you see in the media and see Islam for what it really is rather than by trying to convince yourself you actually have a clue when you're simply relying on the irrational acts of a few people (and lets face it, there are crazy people in all sectors of society- atheists and religious people alike) Look at Stalin- he was a Communist dictator, a system which doesn't allow for any religious beliefs whatsoever and yet he committed some of the worst acts of mass murder the world has ever seen. The fact is that it is people, and not religions which are to blame for the bad things that happen the the world.

ChocolateSauce

Jannah wrote: »

The point is that if you don't believe in Islam, you don't believe you'll be tortured for all eternity either. So I guess you have nothing to worry about then

I don't believe it, but if it is in fact true then what I believe doesn't matter. I guess I do have something pretty serious to worry about; I just don't realise it, right?

And the only way I won't be subjected to a cruel and sick punishment is if I convert of my own free will and without being coerced...you don't see a problem with this then? You don't see the circular logic of this? Well, you might, as you say you're not a Muslim, but a lot of Muslims (and Christians, etc) might not.

Hobbes

booksmarts banned for a week. I would of done it sooner but I've been away. If people have an issue with a post use the report post button.

Also please do not engage in tit-for-tat type attacks or you risk being banned too.