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Do you consider yourselves Brainwashed?
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A technicality ........... I dont think disbelief in Allah is a technicality. But if it helps you sleep at night, go for it.
I did not say that disbelief in Allah is a technicality--
My parents believe in GOD- ALLAH, la ilaha ilAllah and as I said for them it may be enough as I don't think that they understand Islam, If they did I have no doubt that they would accept it. There is time... when they are old I will take care of them InshaAllah, they will live with me and I pray that Allah will open their hearts to Islam. :rolleyes:0 -
Transliterating the Arabic, the first three words of the verse are "laqad kafaral-ladhina", and the word that Khalifa translates as "pagans", which is "kafar", is probably better translated as "those who do not believe, even after Islam has been revealed to them".
The "Kuffar" are those who know what Islam is and reject it. They are ungrateful for what Almighty Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) has revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). Allah knows best who among the People of the Book believe in One God without partners, pray, give in charity, follow what is right and reject what is wrong. Can we really denounce people who have not heard in detail the glorious truth of Islam as "kuffar"?. . . the word translated as "pagans" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and by Rashad Khalifa is "mushrikin", which is more closely translated as "polytheists" - those who associate partners with God.
Sadly, in this world, too many people worship "gods" other than the One, the Creator of all that is. They worship money, they worship power, they worship sex. So the modern mushrikin do not bow down before stone idols, but rather they abase themselves before pop idols.
We wash things to make them clean and remove impurities. So I pray that Allah is indeed washing my brain from all that is sinful, and guiding me on the straight path.0 -
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Hi Hivizman
Originally Posted by hivizman
Transliterating the Arabic, the first three words of the verse are "laqad kafaral-ladhina", and the word that Khalifa translates as "pagans", which is "kafar", is probably better translated as "those who do not believe, even after Islam has been revealed to them".
The Khalifa is the leader of the Muslims, at the moment Muslims are so divided that we don't have a Khalifa or leader. Immediately after the Prophets death there were Abu Bakr and Uthman -- problems over the Khalifa led to the Shi'a braking away as a sect.
and...laqad kafaral-laddhina is not the first 3 lines of Surat alkafiroon, get your facts right when quoting qur'an :mad:. It's not rocket science just pay attention to what you're doing...:mad:
Quran Chapter 109 - Quran Translation of Surah Al-Kafiroon (The Disbelievers)1Say to the disbelievers.
2"I worship not that which you worship,
3"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4"And I shall not worship that which you are
worshipping.
5"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6"To you be your religion, and to me my religion."
to all the people who take verses here and there out of
context-this is what Islam says re:disbelievers. When
you read Qur'an Allah is talking to you--worry about yourself
first.0 -
Hi Dinobot,
Some people particularily some Born again Christian friends of mine and somr Jehovas witnesses, seem to think that it's like a secret passsword entry sysstem into heaven---do you believe Jesus is God? Yes, in ya go- regardless of your actions or Is your God called Jehova and not just Jesus? Yes, then you are saved and all the other people who didn't aswer the question correctly are burned eternally---sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Allah/God makes decisions intelligently not just because you tick a few boxes- technicalitys.
I do not believe that just because I became a Muslim that I am saved from Hell Fire, of course I'm not, I'm in the same boat as everyone else but the guidelines that I CHOOSE to obey keep me on the straight and narrow- sirat al mustikeem. I don't drink, don't smoke, wear a scarf and long clothes, no make-up and I take good care of myself, my hubby and my 6 kids whilst also studying for a BA(hons) degree, I'm working hard to try and be a good person and the strict guidelines of Islam keep me focused, it's helpful to me and I'm happy and content, my heart is soft, I don't hate, I don't judge and I don't feel superior to any other human on this planet as only Allah knows what is in our hearts and I reckon on judgement day there will be a lot of people getting into heaven that didn't think they had a chance, because of their humility and people who thought that they had a free pass are excluded because of PRIDE and haughtyness which is a sin in Islam. Anyway, gotta get back to my studies.
Slan.0 -
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Hi Hivizman
Please... your Arabic must be really bad if you think that Khalifa is Pagans.
The Khalifa is the leader of the Muslims, at the moment Muslims are so divided that we don't have a Khalifa or leader. Immediately after the Prophets death there were Abu Bakr and Uthman -- problems over the Khalifa led to the Shi'a braking away as a sect.
and...laqad kafaral-laddhina is not the first 3 lines of Surat alkafiroon, get your facts right when quoting qur'an :mad:. It's not rocket science just pay attention to what you're doing...:mad:
Did you actually read my full post (#30 in this thread)? I clearly said that (1) I was referring to Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:72, (2) I was discussing a translation by someone called Rashad Khalifa, (3) the word that Khalifa translated as "pagans" was a grammatical form of "kafir". Nowhere in my post do I refer to Sura Al-Kafirun.
I thought that I was actually lending support, by pointing out that the translations used by other posters may not fairly reflect the sense of the Arabic text of the Qur'an, to your suggestion that your Christian and atheist family are not automatically doomed to hellfire. I am sad that you did not do me the courtesy of reading the full post (rather than a few words taken out of context by another poster) before suggesting that I was not paying attention.0 -
Since the basis of religion is highly historical, I doubt that very much. The Qur'an knew of scientfic facts long before any ordinary human being came to a conclusion on it by studying about it, including about fault lines in the earth, sea floor spreading, iron within the earth, the Big Bang, the formation of mountains etc
http://www.55a.net/en/miracles/a047.php
How could a book "know" of these things? By osmosis? People gain scientific knowledge of the world by doing experiments, not by making it up in some book. We know about fault lines, sea floor spreading etc because of the work of Geologists is the last few centuries. If these were written in a book from more than a thousand years ago then its mere coincidence, like Nostradamus.I've never met an Iman and my family knows nothing about Islam, so you're theory is, again, wrong. I have had very little contact with actual Muslims in Cork and that was only when I initiated it myself. So who, by your standards, is 'brainwashing' me? Islam most definititely wasn't 'some cult that approached me in the street' so don't even go there
You brainwashed yourselfScience has failed to explain everything in the earth and for as long as there is the inexplainable, there will be religion that gives people the answers. Why not just leave it at that? Because religion is the foundation of many peoples' morals, cultures and a great support to them in times of deaths or tragedy. If you don't want to believe that there is a God, that's your problem, but the fact is that you must allow people to continue their faiths and neither your atheism nor their religion should be disrupted while each individual is leading a morally constructive life that doesn't interfere in a negative way with others. Insulting them by calling them 'brainwashed' only heightens the fact that you are ignorant.
So if I don't believe in God, that's now a "problem"? Religion should be disrupted- why? -because it's nonsense. Every bit of it. People say you have the right to believe whatever you want, but if you do that, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously. If I went around saying I believed in a magic teapot that circled the earth, you'd think I was a nutter, yet if you go around believing in some book whose writer claimed was the word of god- everyone has to accept that? That doesn't make any sense.'As ideas came into his head' is so ridiculous on so many levels. My last post explaining Muhammad's illiteracy, it's 24 years of narration without fault or contradition, its scientific proofs that were yet unknown to humans, its perfect Arabic script etc all explains why the Qur'an is indeed a divine source
A "scientific proof unknown to humans", is by definition, not a scientific proof, just conjecture.Firstly, Islam is not a cult.
Yes it is, just a large one. Just as Christianity is a cult. When it started it was one of many small ones that existed in the region. for various reasons it got a foothold, just like Islam.Secondly, if someone was a Muslim, it would not be 'unproven dogma'
Nothing in the book is proven. Nothing. It's all just blindly accepted as "the truth". Oh there are silly little arguments about it's meaning, but it's like arguing over what flavour of cheese the moon is made of.Thirdly, I would have absolutely no problem with my children learning to recide the Qur'an
Then they will be as brainwashed as you.HA! Okay, women in the west may consider themselves 'liberated'
Exactly. Need I say more?Could I not say that, by your definition, you are brainwashed by "The God Delusion"? For one thing, you keep spewing this teapot crap which you wouldn't have thought of had it not been for Dawkins, therefore it has infiltrated your mind and you're obviously swayed by its opinions.
I merely agree with the bleedin obvious!It's the afterlife that atheists need to worry about
Lol @this! Just lol.There is also nothing to disprove the afterlife and if you believe that you just get 70 or 80 years of life and then you just die and turn into dust and nothing happens, off you go, but that's not my belief of it
Why lie to yourself? How can you lie to yourself like that?What you've just described it the subjugation of women that is the west.
Again, this makes no sense?! If a women in Islam doesn't cover up she'll be ostracised, spat on, called a whore, or worse.people having sex outside marriage does harm them and others a lot more than you think
Never did me or anyone I know any harm at all. Not having sex though can cause much frustrationthey're angry because of a LACK OF SEX.
Yes I think many of them are. Teenage boys who aren't allowed near women? They must be fuming!Lol "You should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about westerners’ sex habits on Saudi TV!!" - well maybe you should hear the lies that are routinely spewed about Muslims on Western TV.
At least we don't claim you have sex with animals, as is claimed on their TV about the west, or promote suicide martyrdom as on Palestinians' kids TV.Having sex with a burka on? What the hell? What sort of weird porn have you been watching??
So I hear.Well if we're using that logic then based on the US, Christianity must mean fornication, clubbing, adultery, use of guns by minors and all those lovely incidents that we hear to often about. Yet if something happens in the Middle East it's immediately a 'Muslim Problem"
Not necessarily.So following your logic, you've been brainwashed by atheism.
No, just common sense!who in their right mind would continue living a lie and saying 5 prayers a day?
Exactly.0 -
book smarts wrote: »How could a book "know" of these things? By osmosis? People gain scientific knowledge of the world by doing experiments, not by making it up in some book. We know about fault lines, sea floor spreading etc because of the work of Geologists is the last few centuries. If these were written in a book from more than a thousand years ago then its mere coincidence, like Nostradamus.So if I don't believe in God, that's now a "problem"? Religion should be disrupted- why? -because it's nonsense. Every bit of it. People say you have the right to believe whatever you want, but if you do that, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously. If I went around saying I believed in a magic teapot that circled the earth, you'd think I was a nutter, yet if you go around believing in some book whose writer claimed was the word of god- everyone has to accept that? That doesn't make any sense.A "scientific proof unknown to humans", is by definition, not a scientific proof, just conjecture.Yes it is, just a large one. Just as Christianity is a cult. When it started it was one of many small ones that existed in the region. for various reasons it got a foothold, just like Islam.Nothing in the book is proven. Nothing. It's all just blindly accepted as "the truth". Oh there are silly little arguments about it's meaning, but it's like arguing over what flavour of cheese the moon is made of.
In fact the exact same thing can be thrown in your face: Why do you lie to yourself? How can you lie to yourself like that about life after death, etc.? Do you seriously know what was before the big bang and what's going to happen to you after you die??Again, this makes no sense?! If a women in Islam doesn't cover up she'll be ostracised, spat on, called a whore, or worse.Never did me or anyone I know any harm at all. Not having sex though can cause much frustrationAt least we don't claim you have sex with animals, as is claimed on their TV about the west, or promote suicide martyrdom as on Palestinians' kids TV.No, just common sense!0 -
Hivizman
when you're wrong admit it- you're translating the qur'an incorrectly you muppet--yes - muppet as in Jim henson's muppets--lol
Khalifah never ever means pagans - grammatical blah blah- shut up!
I can't stand it when people give incorrect translations of words or meaning of Qur'an---have you any idea of the weight of such a deed--to translate Khalifa as pagan, please.....cop on and learn Arabic.
Slan0 -
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Firstly, to Book Smarts- below are the forum rules- I suggest you READ them.
Let me make something absolutly clear in this forum. It is for the open discussion of the religon for those who are following it or for those who may have honest questions about it. IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO VENT, OR FOR MUSLIMS TO HAVE TO DEFEND THIER FAITH FROM ATTACK.
3. The following is NOT ALLOWED. You will be temp banned with a possible outright permanent ban posting any of these subjects.
- Converts. This applies to all sides.
- Garbage (eg. muslim = suicide bomber, telling people they are brainwashed).
- Any offensive posts.
- Attacks on other posters (always attack the post, not the poster)
- Attacks or belittling any religon.
- Fanaticism. This applies to all sides.
- Unsoliticed Private Messages to members to bypass a rule.
- Linking off to a blog/webpage to bypass a rule (eg. Insulting another boards poster).
Shakespeare had a colossal impact on the English language and literature; probably equivalent to the Qu'ran on Arabic. The Qu'ran contains several mistakes and contradictions, you can Google it.Interesting, seeing as Muslims rape so many Swedish women. After all, they deserve for exposing more than 1% of their skin. http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html And you'll be here whining when the Swedes carry out pogroms some day...Studies have shown that there are two things that will produce a violent society: heavy physical chastisement of children, and sexual repression of adolescent males.Islam doesn't spew hate and lies against Jews? Maybe because the Qu'ran already does so.book smarts wrote: »How could a book "know" of these things? By osmosis? People gain scientific knowledge of the world by doing experiments, not by making it up in some book. We know about fault lines, sea floor spreading etc because of the work of Geologists is the last few centuries. If these were written in a book from more than a thousand years ago then its mere coincidence, like Nostradamus.book smarts wrote: »You brainwashed yourselfbook smarts wrote: »So if I don't believe in God, that's now a "problem"?book smarts wrote: »Religion should be disrupted- why? -because it's nonsense. Every bit of it. People say you have the right to believe whatever you want, but if you do that, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously.book smarts wrote: »A "scientific proof unknown to humans", is by definition, not a scientific proof, just conjecture.book smarts wrote: »Yes it is, just a large one. Just as Christianity is a cult. When it started it was one of many small ones that existed in the region. for various reasons it got a foothold, just like Islam.book smarts wrote: »Exactly. Need I say more?book smarts wrote: »Again, this makes no sense?! If a women in Islam doesn't cover up she'll be ostracised, spat on, called a whore, or worse.book smarts wrote: »Never did me or anyone I know any harm at all. Not having sex though can cause much frustrationbook smarts wrote: »Yes I think many of them are. Teenage boys who aren't allowed near women? They must be fuming!book smarts wrote: »So I hear.
I said: "Well if we're using that logic then based on the US, Christianity must mean fornication, clubbing, adultery, use of guns by minors and all those lovely incidents that we hear to often about. Yet if something happens in the Middle East it's immediately a 'Muslim Problem" "
you replied:book smarts wrote: »Not necessarily.0 -
Dear Ginada,
As you could not be bothered to do the simple act of clicking on the link to my previous post and then reading it, I have saved you the trouble by copying it here.One of the main problems of studying Islam is that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, and no translation is definitive. The above verse, Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:72, is taken from the Rashad Khalifa translation, which claims to be the "Authorized English Translation" of the Qur'an, but certainly has nothing like the same status as the Authorized Version (King James) of the Bible. Indeed, as far as I can tell, the only "authorization" comes from Rashid Khalifa himself.
Transliterating the Arabic, the first three words of the verse are "laqad kafaral-ladhina", and the word that Khalifa translates as "pagans", which is "kafar", is probably better translated as "those who do not believe, even after Islam has been revealed to them". The Abdullah Yusuf Ali version, which is one of the most widely used translations, has "They do blaspheme", but both this and "pagans" are, in my opinion, too strong to use as accurate translations of the sense of the original Arabic.
Khalifa chose to translate "Allah" as "GOD" (which he put in capital letters) - other translators do something similar, for example Muhammad Asad uses "God" (only the "G" is capitalized). Islam has difficulties with both the doctrine of the Trinity and the ascription of divinity to Jesus, but that's a deep topic that I don't want to get into now. The words that Khalifa translates as "Anyone who sets up any idol besides GOD" are, in transliteration, "'Innahu many-yushrik billahi", with the key word being derived from "shirk". This is the worst sin in Islam - "establishing partners with God". It does not necessarily have to involve establishing "idols", and Abdullah Yusuf Ali comes closer by translating the words as "whoever joins other gods with Allah".
This becomes more important when we translate Sura At-Tawbah 9:113, because the word translated as "pagans" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and by Rashad Khalifa is "mushrikin", which is more closely translated as "polytheists" - those who associate partners with God. Are "people of the Book" polytheists? No - Judaism and Christianity are monotheistic religions. The first line of the Nicene Creed is "I believe in one God". Are atheists polytheists? If you don't believe in any god, you can't believe in many gods.ginada wrote:when you're wrong admit it
Don't dig yourself deeper into the hole you are already in. I simply stated in my first post that a person called Rashad Khalifa translated the Arabic word "kafar" in Sura Al-Ma'idah 5:72 into English as "pagans". I then questioned the accuracy of this translation. If you want to debate the translation of words in the Quran derived from the root "k-f-r", then we could do that, but don't get annoyed about a "mistake" that wasn't there in the first place.0 -
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Why do you believe they were liars? Did you read any proper accounts of their biography? Are you so arrogant as to say that you know what was before the big bang and after death?? That's arrogance!
Why do you believe it's the truth?
You're going off on a rant here! I never claimed to know what was before the big bang, or after death.Believe in a tea-pot, believe in three gods, believe in hundreds of gods; Can you back your belief with a reliable source?
Yes, I can. I have a book called the "Teapot" written 2000 years ago. Does that sound reasonable?you reject it and insult its followers.
Are you going to riot now? You see this is the thing. You merely discuss Islam and if they don't like what you are saying, you're "insulting" it. This stifles all discussion, like a totalitarian dictatorship. I didn't insult it, and I could argue that you've "insulted" me by calling me arrogant and brainwashed, if you want to go down that road. We have free speech here, unlike in Muslim countries, so until the UN gets it's dodgy resolution in banning it, we will use it. Muslims say whatever they like about Jews and Christians.Why do you lie to yourself? How can you lie to yourself like that about life after death, etc.?
I don't lie to myself. You do though. If you REALLY believed in the afterlife, you'd be happy to die now, wouldn't you? Or do you doubt it just a little bit?!There's bound to be Muslim women who wear head scarves or even burqa in your area. All you have to do is genuinly ask and they'll explain this one to you.
I thought Muslim women weren't allowed to talk to unrelated men under penalty of stoning? Wouldn't an honour killing be called for then? I wouldn't dare approach one in case some muslim man sees us and she'd be disgraced.It's smple to marry and simple to divorce,
For men, not for women.but as humans with rights (accountability in the hereafter) we try to take it seriously.
There is no "hereafter". Did you exist before you were born? No. So why would you exist after death?Welcome to mass media. Believe what you want but try to back it up with sources and analyzing things properly. I don't agree with some things that the media decides to broadcast but I don't have to believe it. You must ask actual Muslims about their belief. They should direct you to a knowledgeable scholar. You should also read books and try to make up your own mind. Don't believe everything you hear, see or read (without proper sources).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPb1bF-s4M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZT7Fe1HpoE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWHZmxAcNfc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzXXi7BCDOE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLTYPbd4lPc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxgicdtyhB4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ked90K85w&feature=related
Jannah, pity you have to resort to the rules. I guess when you can't argue with logic, you can just win by cheating.0 -
book smarts wrote: »We have free speech here, unlike in Muslim countries, so until the UN gets it's dodgy resolution in banning it, we will use it.
What UN resolution would that be?0 -
book smarts wrote: »Why do you believe it's the truth?
You're going off on a rant here! I never claimed to know what was before the big bang, or after death.book smarts wrote: »Are you going to riot now? You see this is the thing. You merely discuss Islam and if they don't like what you are saying, you're "insulting" it.
All Muslims/ people with a religion are brainwashed
Islam is a 'cult'
Muslim women have sex in burkas
Hijab oppresses women
Muslims are 'angry' because they are 'sexually oppressed'
Islam routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west
Honour killings are 'acceptable' in Islam
and you insinuated that Muslim women "live in fear of their cruel husband who beats them like cattle and wont let them out of the house."
Yet oh gee whiz, why are Muslims getting so upset??book smarts wrote: »This stifles all discussion, like a totalitarian dictatorship.book smarts wrote: »We have free speech here, unlike in Muslim countriesbook smarts wrote: »I don't lie to myself. You do though. If you REALLY believed in the afterlife, you'd be happy to die now, wouldn't you? Or do you doubt it just a little bit?!book smarts wrote: »I thought Muslim women weren't allowed to talk to unrelated men under penalty of stoning? Wouldn't an honour killing be called for then? I wouldn't dare approach one in case some muslim man sees us and she'd be disgraced.book smarts wrote: »Jannah, pity you have to resort to the rules. I guess when you can't argue with logic, you can just win by cheating.0 -
HA! You think you're having a 'discussion'??? You've insulted both Islam and Muslims very personally for the ENTIRE TIME!
You have said:
All Muslims/ people with a religion are brainwashed Yes they are, just admit it.
Islam is a 'cult' As are all religions
Muslim women have sex in burkas Some do I'm sure!
Hijab oppresses women Most western women would agree
Muslims are 'angry' because they are 'sexually oppressed' Refer to that post by someone connecting violence with physical chastisement of kids, and sexual repression in young men
Islam routinely spews hate and lies against jews and the west have a look at some of those vids I posted. There are plenty more on youtube
Honour killings are 'acceptable' in Islam In some countries, yes. Only a few days ago the president of the semi autonomous region of Chechnya in Russia said they were acceptable
and you insinuated that Muslim women "live in fear of their cruel husband who beats them like cattle and wont let them out of the house." Again i suggest you look at those clips posted, some respected imam or elder actually advising men how to beat their wives.
All those things are facts (except for the burka thing- which is quite a funny image actually). Why is the statement of those facts so insulting? Because they hit a raw nerve? Maybe if instead of being so touchy and easily taking offense and using violence at the drop of a hat they tried to change things.0 -
book smarts wrote: »Why do you believe it's the truth?
You're going off on a rant here! I never claimed to know what was before the big bang, or after death.Yes, I can. I have a book called the "Teapot" written 2000 years ago. Does that sound reasonable?Are you going to riot now? You see this is the thing. You merely discuss Islam and if they don't like what you are saying, you're "insulting" it. This stifles all discussion, like a totalitarian dictatorship...I don't lie to myself. You do though. If you REALLY believed in the afterlife, you'd be happy to die now, wouldn't you? Or do you doubt it just a little bit?!I thought Muslim women weren't allowed to talk to unrelated men under penalty of stoning? Wouldn't an honour killing be called for then? I wouldn't dare approach one in case some muslim man sees us and she'd be disgraced.For men, not for women.There is no "hereafter". Did you exist before you were born? No. So why would you exist after death?
I haven't checked your youtube vids. I'll check them later.
I think you're jumping all over the place and getting confused (you're kind-of ignorant about the basics of Islam) so I suggest choose the core of the subject, like: 'Belief in God,' and then work from there instead of jumping into the middle (jurisprudence & acts) and trying to figure out what's going on around you!Jannah, pity you have to resort to the rules. I guess when you can't argue with logic, you can just win by cheating.0 -
book smarts wrote: »All those things are facts (except for the burka thing- which is quite a funny image actually). Why is the statement of those facts so insulting? Because they hit a raw nerve? Maybe if instead of being so touchy and easily taking offense and using violence at the drop of a hat they tried to change things.
Facts? Really? Well since you fancy yourself as having such a scientifically channelled mind, I find that pretty hard to believe that you would consider these 'facts' since you have no statistics to prove them. YouTube, my dear, does not count as a relevent source and just because one Iman has an opinion on something doesn't mean it's necessarily the Islamic point of view. Islam doesn't have a Pope who decides everything on behalf of everybody else- it is a religion which stresses one's individual relationship with God and if you don't go back to the source, you will- as usual- be simple relying on hearsay as a crutch to your twisted opinions.
You need to open your eyes and stop being so gullible to what you see in the media and see Islam for what it really is rather than by trying to convince yourself you actually have a clue when you're simply relying on the irrational acts of a few people (and lets face it, there are crazy people in all sectors of society- atheists and religious people alike) Look at Stalin- he was a Communist dictator, a system which doesn't allow for any religious beliefs whatsoever and yet he committed some of the worst acts of mass murder the world has ever seen. The fact is that it is people, and not religions which are to blame for the bad things that happen the the world.0 -
The point is that if you don't believe in Islam, you don't believe you'll be tortured for all eternity either. So I guess you have nothing to worry about then
I don't believe it, but if it is in fact true then what I believe doesn't matter. I guess I do have something pretty serious to worry about; I just don't realise it, right?
And the only way I won't be subjected to a cruel and sick punishment is if I convert of my own free will and without being coerced...you don't see a problem with this then? You don't see the circular logic of this? Well, you might, as you say you're not a Muslim, but a lot of Muslims (and Christians, etc) might not.0 -
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booksmarts banned for a week. I would of done it sooner but I've been away. If people have an issue with a post use the report post button.
Also please do not engage in tit-for-tat type attacks or you risk being banned too.0
This discussion has been closed.
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