Certs of compliance and BER's

archtech

Just wondering, what the general consensus would be with regard to making reference to a BER in an Opinion of Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations for a new dwelling? Would you make specific reference to the relevant BER for the dwelling or is the term "substantial compliance" with building regulations sufficient as used prior to the introduction of the BERs.

Personally I think the BER should be mentioned with the opinion of compliance. (Commencement Notices and Fire Safety Certificates are where they are applicable)

sydthebeat

But Building Energy Ratings have nothing to do with Building regulations???

so unless your certificate is expaned to include planning, building regulations and SI 666, then perhaps your cert isnt the appropriate location for stating compliance.

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

But Building Energy Ratings have nothing to do with Building regulations???

so unless your certificate is expaned to include planning, building regulations and SI 666, then perhaps your cert isnt the appropriate location for stating compliance.

"For new dwellings, the requirement of L1 shall be met by
a. providing that the energy performance of the dwelling is such as to limit the calculated primary
energy consumption and related CO2 emissions insofar as is reasonably practicable, when both
energy consumption and CO2 emissions are calculated using the Dwelling Energy Assessment
Procedure (DEAP) published by Sustainable Energy Ireland;"

Taken from Building Reg Part L

So it does imply that a Dwelling does have to have a DEAP assessment to comply with Building Regs. And therefore should (unless other proof of DEAP compliance is given) be included in a Cert of Compliance.

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

"For new dwellings, the requirement of L1 shall be met by
a. providing that the energy performance of the dwelling is such as to limit the calculated primary
energy consumption and related CO2 emissions insofar as is reasonably practicable, when both
energy consumption and CO2 emissions are calculated using the Dwelling Energy Assessment
Procedure (DEAP) published by Sustainable Energy Ireland;"

Taken from Building Reg Part L

So it does imply that a Dwelling does have to have a DEAP assessment to comply with Building Regs. And therefore should (unless other proof of DEAP compliance is given) be included in a Cert of Compliance.

absolutely agree, but this should not be confused in any way with a building energy rating (BER)... which is what the Op refers to...

this differentiation must be stressed by all certifiers....

muffler

Are we not splitting hairs then so?

sinnerboy

No .

It is conceivable that a cert of compliance may be required where no BER cert exists - or is likely to in the near future . So no BER cert to refer to . Certifier will need to run a DEAP calc to satisfy himself that compliance has been achieved - entirely different to obtaining a BER cert however

And vice versa - look here

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Jan_Stats.pdf

Some new houses BER certed , which clearly don't comply with b regs


.

archtech

What I was referring to was would one make reference to the specific BER Certificate which refers to the specific dwelling in one's opinion of compliance.

My query arises as a solicitor issued the text of an opinion of compliance for signing and made no reference to the BER.

On further investigation the(vendors) solicitor wants to close the sale of a new house without a valid BER (provisional one available). My argument is that the sale can't close until the BER is available and as the dwelling is not/may not be in compliance with the building regulations.

topcatcbr

I agree it does not mean that a BER is required but if you produce a DEAP compliance using the deap software you have also done the majority of the work to produce a BER I don't see the point in not producing a BER cert. It would add extra work to produce one at a later stage.


I do know an Architect and an Engineer who regularly Certify compliance with building regs who have no knowledge of DEAP. This is not within regulations. I have told them but like a lot of people they think BER is a passing phase and will be gone in time.

It will not.

topcatcbr

archtech wrote: »

My argument is that the sale can't close until the BER is available and as the dwelling is not/may not be in compliance with the building regulations.

This is not the case. You are right that a sale should not go through without a BER but this is to do with SI 666 and not Building Regs.

Compliance with Building Regs Does not require a BER. But it makes sense to do both at the same time.

archtech

topcatcbr wrote: »

This is not the case. You are right that a sale should not go through without a BER but this is to do with SI 666 and not Building Regs.

Compliance with Building Regs Does not require a BER. But it makes sense to do both at the same time.

Things are a lot clearer now. Mind you after seeing an assessment done today, I would be very slow to issue a certificate of compliance with building regulations based on a BER assessment of some the "qualified" assessors.... cowboy comes to mind in this case.

To be honest the more I do the research,into the BER, the more I think it is beneficial to become an assessor to deal with my own projects.

topcatcbr

archtech wrote: »

To be honest the more I do the research,into the BER, the more I think it is beneficial to become an assessor to deal with my own projects.

This would be the only good reason to do it.

I have said before and will repeat. I think all Arch Techs should be BER qualified.

It seems to go hand in hand with what we do.

No6

You cannot certify a new house as being in compliance with Part L at this stage without a DEAP assessment and you cannot sell or rent or first occupy (for all you selfbuilders) without a BER cert so in my opinion you cannot certify substantial compliance of a new build (or indeed any compliance) without one.

Poor Uncle Tom

Exactly what I was thinking as well.

sinnerboy

You can . Cert of compliance may be required for final draw down for self builder - no BER cert " who will never sell " ( stand up Slates;) )

topcatcbr

No 6s argument still stands. Self builders are required to get a BER before first occupancy. Whether they intend to sell or not.

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

No 6s argument still stands. Self builders are required to get a BER before first occupancy. Whether they intend to sell or not.

I think things are getting muddled here.

A 'certificate of compliance' certifys compliance with building regulations and planning permission.

Building Energy Ratings are NOT part of the building regs, they are required under SI 666.

a DEAP calculation is required to show compliance with building regs, fine, but this must not be construed as SI 666 compliance,.... and we as professionals shouldnt add to the confusion.

One very practical application is the ability to keep your domestic and non-domestic certs the same... if you start referring to BERs on non-domestic certs imagine the confusion!!!

Therefore, in my opinion, there should be no reference to a BER in a cert of compliance.

muffler

I would wait till a solicitor actually looks for it and then see how he/she has come to the conclusion that it needs to be included in the cert. compliance.

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

I think things are getting muddled here.

A 'certificate of compliance' certifys compliance with building regulations and planning permission.

Building Energy Ratings are NOT part of the building regs, they are required under SI 666.

a DEAP calculation is required to show compliance with building regs, fine, but this must not be construed as SI 666 compliance,.... and we as professionals shouldnt add to the confusion.

One very practical application is the ability to keep your domestic and non-domestic certs the same... if you start referring to BERs on non-domestic certs imagine the confusion!!!

Therefore, in my opinion, there should be no reference to a BER in a cert of compliance.

It is muddled because of the wording of the building regs. It requires a DEAP calculation (which is essentially a BER calculation) but does not ask for a BER Cert. Maybee it meant to. It seems to ask for the work to be done without a result. I know their is the ability to produce a report from DEAP but is this within the spirit of the wording. I dont know and have not been convinced one way or the other.

sydthebeat

It requires a DEAP calculation because DEAP is the methodology prescribed to show compliance...

DEAP can be used for two purposes... to produce a rating and to check compliance.

sinnerboy

topcatcbr wrote: »

It is muddled because of the wording of the building regs. It requires a DEAP calculation (which is essentially a BER calculation) but does not ask for a BER Cert. Maybee it meant to. It seems to ask for the work to be done without a result. I know their is the ability to produce a report from DEAP but is this within the spirit of the wording. I dont know and have not been convinced one way or the other.

no . no . no . The wording of the buildings regs is quite clear .

DEAP is the Irish official procedure for calculating and assessing the energy performance of dwellings . Building regulations require it ( a DEAP calc ) here at L2a ( amongst other things such as min amount of renewables , air testing , min boiler efficiency etc - nothing to do with BER*)

http://www.sei.ie/uploadedfiles/InfoCentre/BER/SI854of2007.pdf

look at the bottom paragrapgh here

http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

*A BER is just a rating - that's all . The link I posted earlier shows ratings for new houses that are clearly not compliant with B Regs

In fact SI 666 2006 does not mention DEAP once .....

http://www.lcea.ie/docs/2007/S.I.No.%20666%20OF%202006%20EPBD-%20EC.pdf

SEI licence DEAP to assessors to carry out BER assessments.- again DEAP is " the Irish official procedure for calculating and assessing the energy performance of dwellings " , one aspect only of b regs requirements .

So again . You may be a certifying architect . You download DEAP and make your calcs . You know that Agreeable Details are implemented , min % renew ables are installed , min 86 % boiler , you have Q50/10 min confirmed by air test result .... You are satisfied( in context of Part L ) that you are compliant . End of story . Assuming all other aspect of b regs are in order - you sign your cert - BER or no BER


.

topcatcbr

I think i may have worded what i said badly before.

sinnerboy wrote: »

no . no . no . The wording of the buildings regs is quite clear .

DEAP is the Irish official procedure for calculating and assessing the energy performance of dwellings . Building regulations require it ( a DEAP calc ) here at L2a ( amongst other things such as min amount of renewables , air testing , min boiler efficiency etc - nothing to do with BER*)

topcatcbr wrote: »

It is muddled because of the wording of the building regs. It requires a DEAP calculation (which is essentially a BER calculation) but does not ask for a BER Cert. Maybee it meant to. It seems to ask for the work to be done without a result. I know their is the ability to produce a report from DEAP but is this within the spirit of the wording. I dont know and have not been convinced one way or the other.

http://www.sei.ie/uploadedfiles/InfoCentre/BER/SI854of2007.pdf

look at the bottom paragrapgh here

http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

*A BER is just a rating - that's all . The link I posted earlier shows ratings for new houses that are clearly not compliant with B Regs

As an assessor you are obliged to inform your client of this and how to resolve it.

In fact SI 666 2006 does not mention DEAP once .....

http://www.lcea.ie/docs/2007/S.I.No.%20666%20OF%202006%20EPBD-%20EC.pdf

SEI licence DEAP to assessors to carry out BER assessments.- again DEAP is " the Irish official procedure for calculating and assessing the energy performance of dwellings " , one aspect only of b regs requirements .

So again . You may be a certifying architect . You download DEAP and make your calcs . You know that Agreeable Details are implemented , min % renew ables are installed , min 86 % boiler , you have Q50/10 min confirmed by air test result .... You are satisfied( in context of Part L ) that you are compliant . End of story . Assuming all other aspect of b regs are in order - you sign your cert - BER or no BER


.

The two proceedures are essentially the same. Using DEAP to broduce a BER and using DEAP to prove compliance with building Reg part L. In this a person could take this to mean that a BER should be included at this stage to show proof that this assessment was done. The report alone would be suffecient to comply with regs but it is no extra work to publish cert while you are at it. This is all i am trying to say.
When you do a Air

As I said previously i know it does not ask for it directly but the to are so closley linked (through DEAP)is it not sensible to do both at same time.

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

The two proceedures are essentially the same. Using DEAP to broduce a BER and using DEAP to prove compliance with building Reg part L. In this a person could take this to mean that a BER should be included at this stage to show proof that this assessment was done. The report alone would be suffecient to comply with regs but it is no extra work to publish cert while you are at it.
.

this is where i would differ from you...

a BER is required legally after completion, before the dwelling is occupied.

whereas personally, i would need to carry out a DEAP calc before a sod is turned to see if the proposed spec complies with building regs.... in my opinion doing this calculation after completion is dangerous... and could cost the client a lot in retrofitting, and could cost the certifier in reputation.....

obviously a final DEAP is done to if there is any change from the spec....

I think the two need to be clearly differentiated TC, and there should be no confusion between the two... if we the professionals are getting confused about it, imagine trying to explain it to a layperson....

sinnerboy

And I do NOT differ from you Syd. I see at exactly as you do .

topcatcbr

I stand Corrected lads.

Now i am (Fairly) Convinced.

Lucily i dont have to do Certs of Compliance in my job.