Another let down by my local station

chem

This is the final rub. Applied for my 9mm browning in June last year. Kept getting the brush off until I rang the super. He told me he would not be granting the cert and would put it in writting. Then the district was changed from Louth/Meath to Louth. Asked about my written refusal and was told my original application was "missplaced" and had to reapply last week:mad: I asked if they would back date my new application to the time I originally applied. Was told it couldnt be done. So now It looks like my application is made after the minister said no more pistol licences will be allowed. Any advice??

Trojan911

chem wrote: »

This is the final rub. Applied for my 9mm browning in June last year. Kept getting the brush off until I rang the super. He told me he would not be granting the cert and would put it in writting. Then the district was changed from Louth/Meath to Louth. Asked about my written refusal and was told my original application was "missplaced" and had to reapply last week:mad: I asked if they would back date my new application to the time I originally applied. Was told it couldnt be done. So now It looks like my application is made after the minister said no more pistol licences will be allowed. Any advice??

Sounds like grounds for a complaint to me. Misplaced paperwork seems to be the norm in these situations & it's just not good enough. They are either incompetant or it's a fob off job. I'd go for the latter but I wouldn't rule out the first either.

Are you with NARGC? If so lodge your complaint with them. Produce all your written paperwork (photocopied application etc) if needed, times & dates you made contact with the station/front desk/FO/Super & conversation or vice versa. Also consider the Garda Ombudsman re a complaint.

Too many people are not acting fast enough, so it slips through the net. You say another let down. What was the first one? Cite that as well in your complaint. You can be sure if you failed to produce you drivers licence they would be down on you in a flash irrespective of you loosing misplacing your paperwork.

jwshooter

chem wrote: »

This is the final rub. Applied for my 9mm browning in June last year. Kept getting the brush off until I rang the super. He told me he would not be granting the cert and would put it in writting. Then the district was changed from Louth/Meath to Louth. Asked about my written refusal and was told my original application was "missplaced" and had to reapply last week:mad: I asked if they would back date my new application to the time I originally applied. Was told it couldnt be done. So now It looks like my application is made after the minister said no more pistol licences will be allowed. Any advice??

your dealer should have a dated copy of the note he gave you.
TBH you would be better to go out into the back yard and howl at the moon .
if you do not intend to go all the way with it forget about it .
also its a waste of your time and money applying for any thing over .22 and your chances of getting are a little better than none.

chem

I rang the FO in the new district office and he told me there is no blanket ban on pistols (as yet). I might see how this one goes before I rock the boat. Im a member of country side allience so might give them a call for advice.

A list to date of the issues ive had are as follows:

Waited a year for my shotgun licence (10yrs ago)
Wasnt allowed have a .22lr and a .22 hornet because they were to close a caliber
Moved house and informed the local station. One licence went to my old address and the other to a different house in my new estate, because they had a different house number then mine on it.
Now this "missplaced" paperwork.

Trojan911

chem wrote: »

Waited a year for my shotgun licence (10yrs ago)

Unacceptable wait.

chem wrote: »

Wasnt allowed have a .22lr and a .22 hornet because they were to close a caliber

So, why was I allowed?

chem wrote: »

Moved house and informed the local station. One licence went to my old address and the other to a different house in my new estate, because they had a different house number then mine on it.
Now this "missplaced" paperwork.

Incompetent.


Again, it boils down to "what are the rules?" They don't seem to know what is set down for them. And I have no doubt you are not the only one to experience this. Shoddy springs to mind. I would start rocking the boat now, well, it would have rocked long ago if I had experienced this.

Grizzly 45

Anyone beat a 2 1/2 year wait for a pistol cert???That record is stil held by Clare Gunner methinks?

Sparks

chem, first of all sit down and decide - are you willing to go to court over this? Take a while to think about it. Weigh the costs, the odds of publicity, the hassle, everything. If the answer's no, well, get an air or a .22 pistol and have fun. If not...

Start a diary with every contact you've had with the Gardai in it. Start a file with every scrap of paper you've ever gotten about this.
Next, from now on all contact goes to/from the Superintendent. The FO isn't (there isn't any such post). We've been advised by the Gardai that in such cases, you deal with the Super and noone else.
Next, get a solicitor. If you're in the NARGC, contact them and ask if they'll help.
From that point, I'd listen to your legal counsel first, but my inkling would be to pursue the original application through the courts, and to notify the Superintendent that you intend to do so.

I'd keep in mind through all of this however, that the goal here is not to "win" or to punish the super or whatever - it's to get the firearm so you can enjoy yourself on the range. If that means a deal on the steps and walking away, if it means a quiet chat and a handshake, whatever. End of the day, either you're shooting or you're not and that's the thing to keep in mind.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone beat a 2 1/2 year wait for a pistol cert???That record is stil held by Clare Gunner methinks?

Oi cheeky.

ironsight

Misplaced paperwork .... that old chestnut.... as someone else wrote, it's a fob off job, I wonder how fast they would be be to go after you if you lost your paperwork, car tax, insurance and so on, they would nail you to a cross. Well that sad excuse alone sounds like reasonable grounds for a complaint to the Ombudsman.

It might be a bit late to bring it up, BUT, you didn't by chance get a copy of your application signed and dated by the FO in your local station.

As the folk's here rightly pointed out if you are a member of the NARGC, register your complaint with them as well..

The Garda are slow to act on anything to do with the licensing of firearm's

kowloon

Unless it's common practice to store the paperwork in the bin, I can't believe the amount of lost document stories I hear. If a private company was entrusted with this task they would have lost the contract by now. If this was driving licences there would have been an enquiry.

Are hunters, target shooters and antique collectors a lower stratum of society, undeserving of respect?

bigred

ironsight wrote: »

you didn't by chance get a copy of your application signed and dated by the FO in your local station.

I asked for this when I filled in my last cert and was told I wasnt allowed have even a bad photocopy of my application. I was actually too shocked at the time to say anything. I mean it's a form with my personal information on it?!?!?

Sparks

That's strictly illegal under the Data Protection Act bigred, you have a statutory right to see such information and to amend it if it is incorrect.
(This is the kind of thing the Gardai meant when they said to deal with the Super only in 'problem cases')

Sparks

BTW, the form itself isn't confidential:

the_syco

Question: are the Gardai exempt from giving you information about yourself under the FoI act? And if not, can the lack or information (ie: them losing your stuff) which you gave them be seen as them not co-operating with the FoI act?

maglite

lodge a FOI for your original application.

Send it registered. Then complain that they have either, lost it, ignored it or ignored a FOI

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

That's strictly illegal under the Data Protection Act bigred, you have a statutory right to see such information and to amend it if it is incorrect.
(This is the kind of thing the Gardai meant when they said to deal with the Super only in 'problem cases')

Oh, I could see a blank form (just see it mind). I remember now - they told me it was "Garda Property" and he wasnt allowed give it to me. In the end I got my licence, so I'm not too miffed, but when I go and ask for a .22 pistol, I'd like to have a papertrail the whole way from the start.

bigred

maglite wrote: »

lodge a FOI for your original application.

Send it registered. Then complain that they have either, lost it, ignored it or ignored a FOI

Methinks an FOI appeal is just the sort of thing that could cause future paperwork to be 'mislaid'. It's a terrible situation when you have to cross your fingers and toes and hope you haven't p1ssed them off during the process as they hold the power. I was brickin' it putting in my first app (even though my app was completely valid). It was worse than going through US immigration!!

gofaster_s13

bigred wrote: »

It was worse than going through US immigration!!

T least immigration officers know what theyre doing:pac:

Grizzly 45

the_syco wrote: »

Question: are the Gardai exempt from giving you information about yourself under the FoI act? And if not, can the lack or information (ie: them losing your stuff) which you gave them be seen as them not co-operating with the FoI act?

Another one of these half in half out situations..Yes they are FOI and DPA registerd.You can check online with the DPA to see what their mission statement and policy is on this.However on certain things like "operational matters" they are exempt.Logical enough considering they wouldnt be much good if everytime a crime is comitted they would have to comment under the FOI rules on how the investigation is proceeding.However it is more the abuse of this situation that should concern us.Lost paperwork,simply put it in the cant comment or comply with the FOI on operational matters.Not saying that this is happening,but the potential for it to happen is there.

Sparks

the_syco wrote: »

Question: are the Gardai exempt from giving you information about yourself under the FoI act? And if not, can the lack or information (ie: them losing your stuff) which you gave them be seen as them not co-operating with the FoI act?

They can refuse to grant an FoI request under certain circumstances. From the original FoI Act, Section 23:

23.—(1) A head may refuse to grant a request under section 7 if access to the record concerned could, in the opinion of the head, reasonably be expected to—

( a ) prejudice or impair—

(i) the prevention, detection or investigation of offences, the apprehension or prosecution of offenders or the effectiveness of lawful methods, systems, plans or procedures employed for the purposes of the matters aforesaid,
(ii) the enforcement of, compliance with or administration of any law,
(iii) lawful methods, systems, plans or procedures for ensuring the safety of the public and the safety or security of persons and property,
(iv) the fairness of criminal proceedings in a court or of civil proceedings in a court or other tribunal,
(v) the security of a penal institution,
(vi) the security of the Central Mental Hospital,
(vii) the security of a building or other structure or a vehicle, ship, boat or aircraft,
(viii) the security of any system of communications, whether internal or external, of the Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces, the Revenue Commissioners or a penal institution,

( b ) reveal or lead to the revelation of the identity of a person who has given information to a public body in confidence in relation to the enforcement or administration of the civil law or any other source of such information given in confidence, or
( c ) facilitate the commission of an offence.

But they are not allowed to just deny a request for no reason.

Also, the FoI and Data Protection acts are seperate, and the rules are different - you might get better results with a Data Protection Act approach. The valid reasons for the Gardai to deny access to a record are listed in Section 5 of the Data Protection Act and you couldn't say that they apply in this case without saying that bigred was a suspected criminal (in fact, denial of access to those records is saying exactly that); at which point you're into a whole other ball of wax.

Sparks

And if chem was to go ahead with chasing after a licence on the basis that the application went in before the Minister's proclamation, well, I'm not his solicitor but I would be putting in both an FoI request and a DP act request to see my application form. If nothing else, it's evidence to show the DC judge.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

And if chem was to go ahead with chasing after a licence on the basis that the application went in before the Minister's proclamation, well, I'm not his solicitor but I would be putting in both an FoI request and a DP act request to see my application form. If nothing else, it's evidence to show the DC judge.

The "FO" in the district office said that there is no ban on pistols and to put in my application (as of last week). So I might just let it run at that. If all comes to all and my licence is turned down, I might ask about a .22 pistol. I have no great wish to go to court and at the min the costs would be added pressure.

Fingers crossed the government here will go the same way as Icelands before anything is written into law on pistols:D

Sparks

The Minister announced a ban chem; if you put in before the announcement in November, I wouldn't accept the FO's word and resubmit unless I had it in writing from the Super that you'd get the licence, not if you want the centerfire anyway. If you just want the .22, that's a different ball of wax.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

............If you just want the .22, that's a different ball of wax.

Can I ask why

Sparks

Because right now we're seeing a lot of hassle over centrefire pistol licences BS, but not much at all for smallbore, and I've heard of none at all for air pistols.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Because right now we're seeing a lot of hassle over centrefire pistol licences BS, but not much at all for smallbore, and I've heard of none at all for air pistols.

Really. personally haven't heard much about new applications in my sphere of operations.

When Ifirst applied for a pistol licence, a 9mm, I was refused point blank and I was "advised" to go for a smallbore, as in a .22lr, and got it without any hassle. Looks like we're going back to that?

Sparks

Seems that way at the moment BS, at least in some districts.

bunny shooter

They know something we don't I wonder.

Sparks

No, I think they read the Minister's press release same as we did.

bunny shooter

Oh, so they equate a .22lr pistol as an "Olympic" pistol?

Are they restricting this to pistols from the list of pictures submitted previously or are the likes of Browning Buckmarks, Ruger Mark 1/2/3's acceptable as suitable for "Olympic" smallbore shooting do we know?

( Not "Olympic" bashing here BTW , I have found God , not really, but I am a reformed poster here , well mostly )

Sparks

I've no idea what the supers are doing BS, though I'd imagine they're not being quite that detailed in their knowlege of the difference between '.22 pistol', 'smallbore pistol', 'ISSF pistol', 'Olympic pistol', and 'not a big scary gun'. I'm just saying that most if not all the problems we've seen here in the last while have been for centrefire, while air and smallbore have been trouble-free for the most part.