Girly hair nets student €3500

L.R. Weizel

stovelid wrote: »

He shouldn't get a payout.

He should be reinstated with an apology though.

The uniform arguments are bogus. I agree with them insofar as some kids don't get victimized in poorer areas for having worse /unfashionable clothes as the others, but instilling discipline? Geddoutofit.

If you're going to have any kind of strict ruling, wouldn't one against mocking someone's attire be more effective? There are still going to be items of "fashion" like coats, bags, and hair, and most sane people do not feel comfortable with schools going that far these days.

Amazingly kids socialise outside of school so they know what each other wear anyway.

You should not sacrifice individuality, even "Surface" individuality, to solve a problem.

stovelid

L.R. Weizel wrote: »

If you're going to have any kind of strict ruling, wouldn't one against mocking someone's attire be more effective? .

Enforced how?

L.R. Weizel wrote: »

Amazingly kids socialise outside of school so they know what each other wear anyway.

Schools typically cover wide catchment areas. I saw about 5% of my classmates outside school on a regular basis.

L.R. Weizel wrote: »

You should not sacrifice individuality, even "Surface" individuality, to solve a problem.

Nobody over the age of 21 gives a fig about the 'sacrifice' of an 'individuality' predicated solely by the length of your hair.

That said: students should obviously be allowed to opt out of uniform, and wear their hair /have piercings in school if they want. There are obviously more important things for teacher to be worrying about.

paddyb125

He definately deserved the money, why shouldn't guys be allowed to have long hair? It was the same as piercings in my secondary school, girls could have their ears pierced yet boys couldn't...it was so hipocritical when a female teacher with piercings was telling a lad to take his out or he'll get suspended.

L.R. Weizel

Nobody over the age of 21 gives a fig about the 'sacrifice' of an 'individuality' predicated solely by the length of your hair.

This is the root of the problem - this is not an argument, but an appeal to maturity.

If nobody over the age of 21 gives a crap about that, then it's showing a scary lack of diversity in thought to begin with. Consequently what other people think does not affect my views - how you are allowed to present yourself to the world is important and other people should have as little control on that as they allow.

Uniforms are often used to enforce a sense of "Order", so I hardly see how the reverse isn't true, that being able to dress how you like may compliment critical thinking.

The problem is that it's all hip and post modern to believe that people who look different are the true conformists, with next to no reasoning to back this up.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

stovelid wrote: »

Enforced how?

ooh, I dunno... how about teaching acceptance and tolerance as ideals instead of promoting bullying?

Schools typically cover wide catchment areas. I saw about 5% of my classmates outside school on a regular basis.

And you never say another child out of school and had no idea what they wore oustside of school? You a Fritzl by any chance?

Nobody over the age of 21 gives a fig about the 'sacrifice' of an 'individuality' predicated solely by the length of your hair.

The school did. Or at least they do know that they're 3500 out of pocket.

That said: students should obviously be allowed to opt out of uniform, and wear their hair /have piercings in school if they want. There are obviously more important things for teacher to be worrying about.

Exactly. Said kids' progressions and grades, for one thing. Why are we still promoting education as some form of formal obstacle to being identiy? We're not Borg for fvck's sake. If the good Lord had wanted us cloned, we'd be clones.

stovelid

L.R. Weizel wrote: »

The problem is that it's all hip and post modern to believe that people who look different are the true conformists, with next to no reasoning to back this up.

I'm not really sure what postmodernism has to do with the issue at hand.

I'm also intrigued to hear that everybody who wears a uniform is a cerebrally inert stooge, whereas everybody that looks 'different' or who has long hair is a critical thinker.

Your homilies are also conveniently ignoring the fact that I have admitted that, while they have isolated practical uses, I consider school dress codes to be outdated and at a time in their life when appearance is most important to people, it seems petty to enforce it.

L.R. Weizel

I'm also intrigued to hear that everybody who wears a uniform is a cerebrally inert stooge

Excuse me, where did I say this? Please keep your strawmen to yourself.

It is the policies you are supporting that are forcing such instances of polarisation to begin with.

Your homilies are also conveniently ignoring the fact that I have admitted that, while they have isolated practical uses, I consider school dress codes to be outdated and at a time in their life when appearance is most important to people, it seems petty to enforce it.

I realise this - but, like I said uniforms were not dealing with the deeper problem, I believe this line of thought, that the way you dress can be acceptedly discarded as self expression, is part of the wider problem here.

stovelid

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

ooh, I dunno... how about teaching acceptance and tolerance as ideals instead of promoting bullying?

Fine with me. The point was how do teachers stop (hypothetical) cretins bullying pupils? When the acceptance and tolerance goodness falls on deaf ears.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

And you never say another child out of school and had no idea what they wore oustside of school? You a Fritzl by any chance?

Either address the point or quit the lame fucking jokes.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The school did. Or at least they do know that they're 3500 out of pocket.

I'm glad the school were pulled up on it. How many more times do I have to say it.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Exactly. Said kids' progressions and grades, for one thing. Why are we still promoting education as some form of formal obstacle to being identiy? We're not Borg for fvck's sake. If the good Lord had wanted us cloned, we'd be clones.

I think we're at cross-purposes here. I'm old enough to think 'identity' is predicated on a little more than what clothes you wear or what length your hair is. But I think not letting students wear what they want is draconian and petty.

Your homilies are kinda wasted on me. Why don't you scan the thread for a poster who actually thinks uniforms are a great device for suppressing your individuality?

L.R. Weizel

Fine with me. The point was how do teachers stop (hypothetical) cretins bullying pupils? When the acceptance and tolerance goodness falls on deaf ears.

It's better to try than give up completely. They never really bothered to do anything approaching this and in fact the teachers had a tendancy to join in. That said I had thick enough skin to deal with the teasing. I didn't dress all too different most of the time, but had crazy hair.

I think we're at cross-purposes here. I'm old enough to think 'identity' is predicated on a little more than what clothes you wear or what length your hair is.

Again with the appeals to maturity. Just because you are of a particular view and feel yourself to be "mature" for it does not make it so. You're just dismissing points of view as immature without hearing them out fully.

Of course identity is not defined by how you display yourself, but it's nonetheless a part of it and how you're allowed to dress has a strong psychological impact too - this is often why uniforms are used.

But I think not letting students wear what they want is draconian and petty.

The problem is that while it is a good thing you identify this - the people who are draconian and petty think the same way you do at a base level and that can lead to them making the decisions you do.

If you ever researched the field of Gender Identity, you'd realise how much of a psychological impact self expression can have on someone's individuality. For many people personality and appearance are a continuum, and I wish society would push more towards that direction - that wouldn't be "shallow", since you'd be expressing what's on the inside, on the outside, however strange a way of doing it you may have.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

stovelid wrote: »

Fine with me. The point was how do teachers stop (hypothetical) cretins bullying pupils? When the acceptance and tolerance goodness falls on deaf ears.

....well, not bullying kids based onappearances themselves. Also, I don't believe they teach acceptance or tolerance. They certainly don't push it.

There's a bit of double standards here from the school. They want to create intelligent mature individuals, but they want them to be free to make intelligent mature decisions.

Either address the point or quit the lame fucking jokes.

I did. You might not have seen kids from school, but you presumably saw other kids and knew what they wore when out of school.

I'm glad the school were pulled up on it. How many more times do I have to say it.

I wasn't disagreeing - merely pointing out a case where someone over 21 did and rightfully got pulled up on it.

I think we're at cross-purposes here. I'm old enough to think 'identity' is predicated on a little more than what clothes you wear or what length your hair is. But I think not letting students wear what they want is draconian and petty.

Again, I agreed with you here (possibly a little too forcefully!)

stovelid

L.R. Weizel wrote: »

I realise this - but, like I said uniforms were not dealing with the deeper problem, I believe this line of thought, that the way you dress can be acceptedly discarded as self expression, is part of the wider problem here.

I think in many cases, including the OP, there is a conservative and reactionary aspect to the rule.

I also think in some cases, especially in schools where you have greater social diversity - including much poorer students - there was an initial, more altruistic basis to it, that students should all dress the same, regardless of income.

Furthermore, there is probably just a plain inability on the side of adult educators to understand that clothes/self-expression are far more important to a certain age-group than they realize (or remember)

So basically the rule is borked. And it's bad form to expel students for wearing their own clothes, hair, piercings or whatever.

I do think the money would have been better utilized staying in the school though. A public apology and reinstatement would have sufficed.

L.R. Weizel wrote: »

but had crazy hair.

Me too. OTT Smiths quiff. Very proud of it I was. . Still had to wear a uniform though.

L.R. Weizel

If I were the kid I'd spend some of the money to get my hair done, and use a cunk of it to set up some ind of semi-spoof charity against image based discrimination.

stovelid

6th wrote: »

I got hassle for having a beard.

It was a primary school. They have to have some standards, 6th.

Degsy

The sort of teenagers who want to grow thier hair long are the sort of people who create discipline problems in schools.
A teacher cant be giving the job his full attention if there's some spotty,pasty-faced prat constantly fidgeting with his long greasy hair.
What kindd of a mother would want her son to have long hair anyway?Either she's some sort of a political malcontent or she wants her son to grow up gay.

Dragan

Degsy wrote: »

The sort of teenagers who want to grow thier hair long are the sort of people who create discipline problems in schools.
A teacher cant be giving the job his full attention if there's some spotty,pasty-faced prat constantly fidgeting with his long greasy hair.
What kindd of a mother would want her son to have long hair anyway?Either she's some sort of a political malcontent or she wants her son to grow up gay.

**** me mate, there is so much ****ing wrong with that post i can't even be bothered to start pointing out how much you are talking out of you ass pal.

Degsy, you know i have good time for you but lately i don't think you have been thinking too much before you type.

Degsy

Dragan wrote: »

Degsy, you know i have good time for you but lately i don't think you have been thinking too much before you type.

Yeah sorry about that,my feckin hair is hanging in front of the screen and i cant see what i'm typing too well.

ChocolateSauce

Degsy wrote: »

The sort of teenagers who want to grow thier hair long are the sort of people who create discipline problems in schools.
A teacher cant be giving the job his full attention if there's some spotty,pasty-faced prat constantly fidgeting with his long greasy hair.
What kindd of a mother would want her son to have long hair anyway?Either she's some sort of a political malcontent or she wants her son to grow up gay.

When I was in school with my hair down to my lower back, I noted that it was the short haired scumbags who caused trouble. The teachers had no problem with my silky hair.

As for my malcontent mother, she was deputy editor of a national broadsheet newspaper and when I told her I was gay to get a rise out of her, she burst out laughing and told me I was too into girls to be gay.

Nodin

Degsy wrote: »

The (.........)gay.

Some teenagers go through an attention seeking phase, but most grow out of it.

What happened, Degsy boy?

Degsy

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

When I was in school with my hair down to my lower back, I noted that it was the short haired scumbags who caused trouble. The teachers had no problem with my silky hair.

Thats because its manly to cause trouble and have short hair.
No doubt you were some sort of teachers' pet with your beautifull Rapunzel-style hair.;)

stovelid

Degsy wrote: »

Thats because its manly to cause trouble and have short hair.

Indeed. In a classroom of long-haired, well-behaved students, it is an entirely valid expression of non-conformity.

Piste

To all the people going on about teenagers need to express themselves with clothes etc. you might not realise that most of us (well most peopl in my school anyway) are perfectly happy with a uniform. God forbid we should express ourselved through our personalities. Uniforms make life so much easier, roll out of bed, throw on uniform. Do I have to worry about my top clashing with my skirt? Nope because black will always go with green. There's also a very practical aspect, say I get hit by a car on the way to school and am unconcious, I have no identity on me but witnesses immediately recognise my uniform and can at least call the school and possibly identify me that way.

The hair thing is a bit ridiculous, I see no reason why students shouldn't wear their hair the way they like, but I also see no reason to do a bit rage against the machine stunt and sacrifice your leaving cert for the sake of your (probably pretty manky if you're a long-haired guy) hair.

stovelid

Piste wrote: »

To all the people going on about teenagers need to express themselves with clothes etc. you might not realise that most of us (well most peopl in my school anyway) are perfectly happy with a uniform. God forbid we should express ourselved through our personalities. Uniforms make life so much easier, roll out of bed, throw on uniform. Do I have to worry about my top clashing with my skirt? Nope because black will always go with green. There's also a very practical aspect, say I get hit by a car on the way to school and am unconcious, I have no identity on me but witnesses immediately recognise my uniform and can at least call the school and possibly identify me that way.
.

But what about the fascist regimentation and suppression of your individuality?

kincsem

A teenage rebel. Yawn. Done before tbh.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dragan wrote: »

**** me mate, there is so much ****ing wrong with that post i can't even be bothered to start pointing out how much you are talking out of you ass pal.

Degsy, you know i have good time for you but lately i don't think you have been thinking too much before you type.

It's Degsy - what did you expect? A competant genalisation-free argment??!

Tar.Aldarion

There was a guy suspended in my school for having his hair cut too short. Retards. Don't know how long hair is girly, for most of our history men had long hair.

GLaDOS

Piste wrote: »

To all the people going on about teenagers need to express themselves with clothes etc. you might not realise that most of us (well most peopl in my school anyway) are perfectly happy with a uniform. God forbid we should express ourselved through our personalities. Uniforms make life so much easier, roll out of bed, throw on uniform. Do I have to worry about my top clashing with my skirt? Nope because black will always go with green. There's also a very practical aspect, say I get hit by a car on the way to school and am unconcious, I have no identity on me but witnesses immediately recognise my uniform and can at least call the school and possibly identify me that way.

Having had to wear a uniform for 14 years, not having to now that I'm in college is so much better. In my old school the principal would make us wear the jumper when it was ridiculously warm.

Normal clothes is a lot easier than uniform too tbh, wake up, jeans, t shirt, jumper. I feel sorry for people who think they have to make a huge effort to look good going to school/college.

Kold

It's the attitude that really bothers me here. I have long hair, down to about my shoulder blades, it's kept clean, it's naturally quite straight and full and I have it tied in a pony tail most of the time. No I'm not gay, no I don't want to look like a girl, no I'm not into metal. I have it like this because I like it, it's my f*cking choice, I have nice hair and quite a lot of people like it. What kind of f*cking inbred tool thinks that hair has to be anything more than a personal stylistic choice?

If girls are allowed to have long hair, why shouldn't lads? Hair isn't really gender defined unless it's on your face. Long hair is perfectly accepted on lads in other countries but here some people can't get beyond the black and white, if you've a shaved head you're a scumbag, if you've long hair you're a crusty/metaller/******, your hair needs to be 2-4 inches to be normal and decent.

Good on the lad, €3,500 isn't all that big a score, I mostly hope he's set a precedent. That this idiotic discrimination and overexertion of power should not be acceptable.

evercloserunion

Imagine if this philosophy was used to tackle gay rights. Okay guys, best way to do this is, just don't be gay. Keep it completely to yourself.

What a bull**** idea. Solving problems of bigotry by removing diversity... what kind of person seriously endorses this? Maybe some mean well, but I don't believe anyone truly socially intelligent should believe this. It's a terrible solution.

I was pointing out the reasons behind uniforms, not making an argument for them. The reason I gave is an oft-cited one for school uniform policies.

Tar.Aldarion

Nah pedos usually just have beards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15S0g8pG6HU

Kold

Degsy wrote: »

Or a paedo.
A lot of paedos have long hair too.

I don't think that's particularly true even though I am a paedo with long hair. Most of the lads have short hair.