Will anybody actually be jailed over the banks fiasco?

Daroxtar

Simple question. Do you think anyone will serve any time in jail because of the current revelations about Anglo/DDDA/Nationwide etc. and whatever else surfaces in the investigations into the irregularities in the irish banking sector?
I'm referring the high ranking officials who stole/squandered/had conflicting interests etc.

deadhead13

Taking a wild guess - no

Sleipnir

Ha! The rich don't go to jail here. This is Ireland!

seamus

It's possible, but unless there are some specific laws which have been broken, which it doesn't look like, then it will be up to the Government/Gardai/DPP to build a case based on other factors - most likely fraud.

But of course that requires a political will and indeed a good deal of evidence that there was a malicious intent or negligence which resulted in this problem. The cost of compiling the evidence and bringing court cases would be immense. And even then you're not guaranteed to get any kind of conviction - these are massively wealthy people with entire law firms at their disposal. We'd be lucky to get any kind of conviction.
At worst I imagine the individuals will be prevented from holding directorships in companies for 10-15 years, but aside from that there's basically very little we can do.

Irish high-flyers have a unique knack of screwing the system over without actually breaking any rules. High-profile cases in the US have occurred because people broke the rules but tried to hide it. Here in Ireland we just bend the rules and say, "Ah yeah, whoopsie", when it turns out that we were acting like monumental arseholes.

Nope. Ireland loves to highlight guilt but doesn't prosecute. Just look at all those expensive tribunals over the last 20 years...

yoshytoshy

From half listening to a programme last night on tv ,it sounds like there were some things that the banks did. That could get certain people into trouble with the law.

The Corinthian

Of course no one will be jailed. That's what we have tribunals for, so that the powers that be can be seen to do something when the matter is newsworthy and then you let it drag on until it's no longer that newsworthy and the hoi polloi have been distracted by something new and shiny.

Of course, while most agree that what occurred with the banks may have been unethical, immoral, irresponsible and perhaps even breached codes of conduct or regulation, that any of it is a criminal offence is perhaps another matter. Insider trading was not until the nineties, AFAIK.

Either way, don't hold your breath.

Dannyboy83

Similar topic here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055488780&page=2


Answer, somebody needs to be.
But its Ireland.
Normally people get away with this.

On the other hand, nothing on this scale has ever happened before. In Ireland, that is.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570935/NatWest-Three-face-jail-for-Enron-fraud.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/1206/1228515634641.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/financial-crisis/top-bankers-face-10year-jail-threat-squad-over-loans-1639913.html


I believe the Examiner said over 200 people were jailed last year for defaulting on loans and mortgages, but these were 'regular' people.

RiverWilde

Ah now, for a moment there I thought I was in Britain or mainland Europe. If anyone important gets prosecuted and gaoled in mounjoy for white collar greed and illegal activity I'll probably collapse in shock.

However, so long as wealthy individuals in Ireland are permitted to treat the country like their own personal fief, we can forget about the law applying to them.

Riv

molloyjh

So far there has been no evidence of criminal activity so unless that changes the answer is No. But I must admit I love that people are clamouring for jail-time for bankers at the moment, many of those people were more than happy to accept the low rates and "irresponsible" lending when it suited them, and now that it has gone tits up they are looking to point the finger and punish someone.

The banks, short of the dodgy dealings coming to light over Anglo and Irish Nationwide, at worst loaned money recklessly to a market that borrowed recklessly. And we are the market. Reckless bankers cannot exist without reckless customers.

Daroxtar

molloyjh wrote: »

So far there has been no evidence of criminal activity so unless that changes the answer is No. But I must admit I love that people are clamouring for jail-time for bankers at the moment, many of those people were more than happy to accept the low rates and "irresponsible" lending when it suited them, and now that it has gone tits up they are looking to point the finger and punish someone.

The banks, short of the dodgy dealings coming to light over Anglo and Irish Nationwide, at worst loaned money recklessly to a market that borrowed recklessly. And we are the market. Reckless bankers cannot exist without reckless customers.

I'm just asking if you think anybody will be jailed

molloyjh

Daroxtar wrote: »

I'm just asking if you think anybody will be jailed

I answered that in the first line. I don't think so based on what I've seen and heard so far. And I have no problem with that because from what I have seen and heard so far I haven't seen any evidence of criminal activity. So if no laws have been broken noone should be jailed.

I don't know the details of some of the Anglo stuff though and there is a possiblity that laws were broken there. If so then someone should, and I think will, be jailed.

The_Minister

I'd say once things have settled down, investigations will happen.

I'd say more people will lose their licenses and ability to be directors, then will actually be fired, but if fraud occurred then there may be trials.

I doubt it though, since the coverage that this has been given, and the comments on public websites like boards.ie mean tat it would be difficult for them to get a fair trial.

Dannyboy83

molloyjh wrote: »

So far there has been no evidence of criminal activity so unless that changes the answer is No. But I must admit I love that people are clamouring for jail-time for bankers at the moment, many of those people were more than happy to accept the low rates and "irresponsible" lending when it suited them, and now that it has gone tits up they are looking to point the finger and punish someone.

The banks, short of the dodgy dealings coming to light over Anglo and Irish Nationwide, at worst loaned money recklessly to a market that borrowed recklessly. And we are the market. Reckless bankers cannot exist without reckless customers.

That take post and any future argument such as that and put it in the garbage where it belongs.

I don't hear anybody screaming over the banks lending too much money, and if they do, they're to be ignored.

The issue at hand here is possible collusion, exposed fraud, known deception and financial corruption unlike anything this state has ever seen.

Please don't waste your time making any more posts such as this because I will shoot them down whenever I see them.

If you want to know why people are expecting heads to roll, its because of the illegal actions of the decision makers in Anglo Irish, IL&P, and possibly others.

Don't divert the issue like this again.

Dannyboy83

molloyjh wrote: »

I answered that in the first line. I don't think so based on what I've seen and heard so far. And I have no problem with that because from what I have seen and heard so far I haven't seen any evidence of criminal activity. So if no laws have been broken noone should be jailed.

I don't know the details of some of the Anglo stuff though and there is a possiblity that laws were broken there. If so then someone should, and I think will, be jailed.

Heres a hot tip:

IL&P playing ping pong with 7Billion Euro, accounting fraud and defrauding investors.

If you would like to see the same case in a different country, you can watch the documentary here:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+smartest+men+in+the+room&emb=0&aq=f#q=the+smartest+guys+in+the+room&emb=0


Wait for this to happen:
http://soapboxireland.blogspot.com/2009/01/anglo-investors-move-to-sue-bank-chiefs.html

P. Breathnach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

That take post and any future argument such as that and put it in the garbage where it belongs.

So if somebody disagrees with you, that person should be silenced? I'd sooner have dodgy bankers than your regime.

Dannyboy83

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So if somebody disagrees with you, that person should be silenced? I'd sooner have dodgy bankers than your regime.

And where did I say that?
Where did he disagree?
He went totally off topic, and posted some unfounded BS.

If we all want to feel guilty about the huge personal debt, we can all go have a collective cry later (Note: I didn't participate so I won't be crying). For the moment however, the discussion is a number of criminals in our financial system.

People can disagree all they like. If they're dealing with the SAME ISSUE.

However, if someone tries to subvert the issue with their own agenda, then can stick it where the sun don't shine (or alternatively start a new thread).

Boards like this carry a lot of momentum and are a forum for change and for action.
I'm sick of hearing nonsensical arguments like these which everybody knows not to be true.

If you llike it or don't, I don't particularily care.
If you write something that is unfounded, I will shoot it down with the cold hard facts like I have done so above.

If you have facts to prove that the bankers didn't act illegally, lets hear them. Any obfuscating of the issue won't be tolerated.

Now back to the issue.

joolsveer

I saw this written on a wall near the Four Courts.

"Prison is where big criminals put little criminals".

seamus

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you have facts to prove that the bankers didn't act illegally, lets hear them. Any obfuscating of the issue won't be tolerated.

I think you'll find that the burden is upon you to provide evidence of people having acted illegally.

You don't seem to have provided anything of the sort, and if you do have such evidence I suggest that you go straight to the Gardai and ask them to arrest the people involved because God knows that displaying any criminal evidence on a public forum won't do any good, and thus far the people tasked with investigating are yet to find any evidence of law breaking.

Anything else is simply your opinion, just like mollyjh's opinion.

P. Breathnach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you have facts to prove that the bankers didn't act illegally, lets hear them. Any obfuscating of the issue won't be tolerated.

You have it the wrong way around: it is necessary to prove that a person is guilty. You cannot substitute a requirement that a person prove his or her innocence.

Boards like this carry a lot of momentum and are a forum for change and for action.

I think you overrate the impact anything you say here is likely to have.

I don't like the lynch-mob approach to things. I get the impression that you do.

Raiser

Generally speaking, its only the soft targets that get locked up in Irish Society.

molloyjh

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

That take post and any future argument such as that and put it in the garbage where it belongs.

I don't hear anybody screaming over the banks lending too much money, and if they do, they're to be ignored.

The issue at hand here is possible collusion, exposed fraud, known deception and financial corruption unlike anything this state has ever seen.

Please don't waste your time making any more posts such as this because I will shoot them down whenever I see them.

If you want to know why people are expecting heads to roll, its because of the illegal actions of the decision makers in Anglo Irish, IL&P, and possibly others.

Don't divert the issue like this again.

Eh you did read the very first line of my post that directly answers the question!? And then subsequent posts that further clarify that answer yes!? The rest was an aside, which as far as I can tell from the charter is allowed so long as it is relatively on topic. Given that the question was about jailtime for bankers (not just the Anglo carry on, but all the banks) that aside is still very much on topic.

Oh and the burden of proof lies in proving guilt not innocence and what has happened in other countries is of little concern given that the question was relating to this country, it's laws and the possibility of jailtime based on those laws.

murfie

I think it is pretty obvious now that there was wrong doing in the financial industry involving major banks. The Chairman of the Irish Nationwide Building Society, Dr Michael Walsh, resigned earlier this evening over the loan giving to the chairman of Anglo. They all need brought to justice for what they are doing, but will they? I doubt it as these very people are in the same circle as the people running the country, who knew what was going on and nobody can convince me otherwise. There is a cancer in Irish society and we need to cut it out, government/bankers/regulators.

NewDubliner

From the Times, breaking news:

Allen Stanford, the billionaire cricket impresario, has been charged with a “massive ongoing fraud” worth up to $8 billion by the American financial authorities.

Federal agents stormed into the office of the Stanford Financial Group in Houston, Texas, this morning after the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) accused Mr Stanford of major fraud in the sale of billions of dollars of financial derivatives.

The SEC - the Wall Street watchdog - filed charges at the Federal District Court in Dallas this morning claiming that Mr Stanford and two colleagues had misrepresented the safety and liquidity of investments in their Antigua-based Stanford International Bank Ltd (SIB), which has about 30,000 clients.....

I think our own government might be able to gain a percent or two of approval rating if it televlsed a the storming of a few large houses here.

Dr Galen

i don't think that at this stage anyone doubts that some definite dodgey dealing was going on over in certain banks and other institutions. But the question is and will remain so until investigated, did anything illegal take place? Right now, no one has the facts of any of this. We simply don't know the full extent of the problems. Until then, we can't really say what will or won't happen.

As much as the behaviour of certain individuals and organisations sickens me to the core, I strongly believe in our ideals as a Republic, and that each an every one of us, no matter how heinous the crime is entitled to a fair and honest trial, with all that goes with that, and the presumption of innocence, until proven guilty. Now, is not the time for witch-hunts and McCarthy-esque blusterisms. We need cool heads, proper rigourous investigations and then, when we have the facts, apply the principles of justice to anyone who requires it.

Do I honestly think that anyone will see the inside of a cell for any of this???

Unlikely, IMHO, the culture of cute hoorism is and has been alive and kicking for many a year. Bending the rules without breaking them is something that seems to come naturally to a lot of Irish (myself included ) so, nope unfortunately, no jailtime. But hopefully it'll give everything a good feckin shake-up and we'll see a few changes in the months and years ahead.

Dannyboy83

molloyjh wrote: »

Eh you did read the very first line of my post that directly answers the question!? And then subsequent posts that further clarify that answer yes!? The rest was an aside, which as far as I can tell from the charter is allowed so long as it is relatively on topic. Given that the question was about jailtime for bankers (not just the Anglo carry on, but all the banks) that aside is still very much on topic.

Oh and the burden of proof lies in proving guilt not innocence and what has happened in other countries is of little concern given that the question was relating to this country, it's laws and the possibility of jailtime based on those laws.

Yes I did, did you forget about the rest of what you wrote then?
Here, let me rejog you memory?

So far there has been no evidence of criminal activity so unless that changes the answer is No. But I must admit I love that people are clamouring for jail-time for bankers at the moment, many of those people were more than happy to accept the low rates and "irresponsible" lending when it suited them, and now that it has gone tits up they are looking to point the finger and punish someone.

The banks, short of the dodgy dealings coming to light over Anglo and Irish Nationwide, at worst loaned money recklessly to a market that borrowed recklessly. And we are the market. Reckless bankers cannot exist without reckless customers.

Nothing wrong with the first line, fair and balanced opinion.

The rest is a completey biased and unfair, which frankly stinks of sniping and 1 upmanship. Like telling someone who got mugged that they deserved it.
One who bought a house could equally counter your statement with : "I love how all the people who were too financially incompetent to get it together to actually get a mortgage are all smug and condescending now". The trouble is that this bickering gets us nowhere. Much like the Public vs. Private sector nonsense that goes on, on this board.
People commited fraud and criminal acts. It was not the citizens who bought houses or citizens who didn't buy houses so why even polarise these groups?

First, we are not the market. Most of Anglo's market is commercial, not residential

Second, People the length and breath of this country were complaining about the price of houses for years in case you've forgotten.
The only people not complaining were the unregulated auctioneers, property agents, builders, bankers and stamp duty coffers.
Nobody else among my age group was particularily happy with the arrangement. None of us could afford to buy a house but got shafted on rent anyway.
None of us computer engineers could believe that unskilled, lowly educated property agents were cleaning up, while we couldn't even buy a house.

I think its completely unfair to accuse people of pointing the finger, given that we know there has been fraudulent activity.
Open a newspaper man. Turn on the TV. Look at the web.....

The reckless people here are the Anglo Irish top dogs and the builders with small players in terms of Fianna Fail and the financial regulator.
The normal citizens of this country were given the short stick as usual.
All of those people "pointing the finger" as you put it, may never have been dragged into purchasing property and the subsequent negative equity if Anglo and co. hadn't been cooking their books.

We are aware fraud has been committed here, its on every international news channel I have on my television.
The world is waiting for us to act.

If we can get it together and direct the arguments where it should be directed, (and stop being so bloody Irish!), there is a chance that something good may come of all of this.

Last but not least, my sister in law worked for Anglo and one of my close friends works for Ulster.
I don't have some vendetta against bankers.
I just want to see justice done and the guys that fraudulently inflated the whole market and consequently landed us with 10s of Billions of debt.

Daroxtar

murfie wrote: »

They all need brought to justice for what they are doing, but will they? I doubt it as these very people are in the same circle as the people running the country, who knew what was going on and nobody can convince me otherwise. There is a cancer in Irish society and we need to cut it out, government/bankers/regulators.

Does anyone remember the finbar ross fraud case from the 80s?
The gangster who stole all the money from irish immigrants in england and used his connections in the phoenix park polo club, most notably colm allen, the most prominent barrister in the country at the time, to make sure he got away scot free.
And Michael lynn was quoted in the papers at the weekend as saying he would not come home to face the music unless he got a guarantee he would serve no more than 3 months.
It would be nice to be able to tell the judge how long to sentence you for but i guess that privilage is reserved for more worthy folk than us.

Dannyboy83

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You have it the wrong way around: it is necessary to prove that a person is guilty. You cannot substitute a requirement that a person prove his or her innocence.

I agree.
However, I have alreadyh made the statement, as most other people on this thread, that I believe there is clear evidence that these people are guilty.
Therefore, I am asking you for evidence which contradicts said evidence or new evidence which I've not yet encountered which proves everything was above board.

Here is an example:
There is a murder weapon. Your finger prints are on the wepaon. We have several witnesses and have reconstructed the crime.

Can you offer an alibi for the time in question?

I think you overrate the impact anything you say here is likely to have.

http://tinyurl.com/adsqxv

May I remind you this is the biggest forum in Ireland?
I've been using English forum for a long time and I moderate on some of them.
Believe me, people take notice.

I don't like the lynch-mob approach to things. I get the impression that you do.

Oh dear....

Dannyboy83

seamus wrote: »

I think you'll find that the burden is upon you to provide evidence of people having acted illegally.

You don't seem to have provided anything of the sort, and if you do have such evidence I suggest that you go straight to the Gardai and ask them to arrest the people involved because God knows that displaying any criminal evidence on a public forum won't do any good, and thus far the people tasked with investigating are yet to find any evidence of law breaking.

Anything else is simply your opinion, just like mollyjh's opinion.

Again, let me make my point clear.

I stated the opinion that there is irrefutable evidence that these people acted fraudulently and outside the law.

When P.Breathnach decided I was a despot for trying to clear up some sniping by molloy, stating that he had simply disagreed with me, I clarified my position that there does exist proof of guilt.

Subsequently, I asked for evidence which contradicts the existing evidence of fraud which would therefore render our EnronTastic friends innocent.

Therefore, I'm not asking for proof of innocence, I'm asking for proof that the evidence which shows their guilt is incorrect

Apologies if this was not clear.

molloyjh

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yes I did, did you forget about the rest of what you wrote then?
Here, let me rejog you memory?
[/i]
Nothing wrong with the first line, fair and balanced opinion.

The rest is a completey biased and unfair, which frankly stinks of sniping and 1 upmanship. Like telling someone who got mugged that they deserved it.

First, we are not the market. Most of Anglo's market is commercial, not residential

Second, People the length and breath of this country were complaining about the price of houses for years in case you've forgotten.
The only people not complaining were the unregulated auctioneers, property agents, builders, bankers and stamp duty coffers.
Nobody else among my age group was particularily happy with the arrangement. None of us could afford to buy a house but got shafted on rent anyway.
None of us computer engineers could believe that unskilled, lowly educated property agents were cleaning up, while we couldn't even buy a house.

I think its completely unfair to accuse people of pointing the finger, given that we know there has been fraudulent activity.
Open a newspaper man. Turn on the TV. Look at the web.....

The reckless people here are the Anglo Irish top dogs and the builders with small players in terms of Fianna Fail and the financial regulator.
The normal citizens of this country were given the short stick as usual.
All of those people "pointing the finger" as you put it, may never have been dragged into purchasing property and the subsequent negative equity if Anglo and co. hadn't been cooking their books.

We are aware fraud has been committed here, its on every international news channel I have on my television.
The world is waiting for us to act.

If we can get it together and direct the arguments where it should be directed, (and stop being so bloody Irish!), there is a chance that something good may come of all of this.

Last but not least, my sister in law worked for Anglo and one of my close friends works for Ulster.
I don't have some vendetta against bankers.
I just want to see justice done and the guys that fraudulently inflated the whole market and consequently landed us with 10s of Billions of debt.

Oh here don't go taking my comments personally. I said people, I didn't mention any names. It was an aside to the discussion. I am in no way biased here I'm just saying that the jailtime thing seems to have become a bit of a slogan that is utterly meaningless for the most part. At the end iof the day you say we "know" there has been fraudulant activity. Where? Stop throwing around these accusations without backing them up with something. There was recklessness across the board, everyone partook in it. And to try and pin the blame on any one group makes no sense. We all carry the responsibility to some degree or other. We each need to own up to our part in it and figure out where we need to go from here. Justice is a lovely term, but in this instance exectly what do you mean by it?

molloyjh

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

...trying to clear up some sniping by molloy...

Clear up? It was pretty much a verbal assault to a generalised aside that never made any reference to you at all.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

...Subsequently, I asked for evidence which contradicts the existing evidence of fraud which would therefore render our EnronTastic friends innocent.

I didn't realise we were talking about the global market, I thought we were talking about the local one?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

...Therefore, I'm not asking for proof of innocence, I'm asking for proof that the evidence which shows their guilt is incorrect.

To do that you must first provide the evidence. Either way I was only talking about the local financial institutions.