Dublin bus to strike on the day of Ireland vs England rugby

bobbyjoe

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

More accurately unions are involved in the stopping of the running of a company and generally holding it at gunpoint so they can justify their existence.

In your opinion.
All we hear are the bad things Unions allegedly do. A lot of work goes on which is never heard of but benefits companies greatly.

meanmachine3

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Dublin Bus' regular daytime timetables are a woeful service (particularly compared to what they should be) and have been as long as I can remember. This is why I don't use them.

this is the most accurate posts you've made so far serenity. when a new schedule is produced the unions meet management and try and sort out the problems before they are introduced, in most cases management only tweek the bills around therefore introducing timetables knowing quiet well they are no going to work. i haven't seen my new schedule yet be you can be damn sure that the runnig time have now will still be the same as it has been for the last ten or so years. at the moment i need an extra 20 mins to make my run whether it's to or from town and as i already stated come the 1st of march the wont be one minute added. i'm no the one that will be suffering .as much as i hate to say this but i still get paid no matter if i do my run or drive "out of service". the only ones suffering due to woeful timetables as you put it are you ( the general public). thats one of the things we're fighting to get changed here

The Corinthian

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Since when was a union involved in running a company?
Since Unions first started.

Unions are not 'involved' in running a company, they represent their membership within a company. Management runs the company, and part of this is balancing out the demands of customers, suppliers and staff (represented by their unions).

Otherwise, if a union is truly involved in running a company, then the unions associated with Dublin Bus share the blame for what is the worst public transport service in Europe.

meanmachine3

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

More accurately unions are involved in the stopping of the running of a company and generally holding it at gunpoint so they can justify their existence.

Yes - times are hard, so lay-offs are inevitible. These redundancies that the bus companies are using is a last-in first-out policy which people think is unfair for some bizarre reason. Mr. Bus driver, how do you propose cutting the cost of the bus network so that it can operate in a zero-sum solution? "Voluntary" redundancies are very expensive (only those approaching retirement will take it, which means substantial pay-outs), meaning many more lay-offs would be needed to cover it - resulting in an even worse service!

i have no answer to your question maggy, i only drive them. i'm sure aleksmart would be able to answer that better than i would.

The Corinthian

meanmachine3 wrote: »

we're fighting to get changed here

Is there somewhere where we can read what the union demands are? Both to confirm and clear up the confusion here.

bobbyjoe

The Corinthian wrote: »

Is there somewhere where we can read what the union demands are? Both to confirm and clear up the confusion here.

http://www.siptu.ie/PressRoom/NewsReleases/2009/Name,10624,en.html

2009
SIPTU drivers decide on continuous strike at Dublin Bus from March 1st
Date Released: 18 Feb 2009


The Dublin Bus Branch of SIPTU decided this afternoon to implement the mandate they received from their driver members in Dublin Bus and commence strike action as and from 00.01 hours on Sunday, March 1, 2009. This action is not for one day only but will be continuous as it is apparent that no alternative course of action is left open to SIPTU drivers in Dublin Bus to protect their conditions of employment in the company.

SIPTU members employed as drivers in Dublin Bus voted last week for industrial action to commence in circumstances where management implemented cost cutting measures without adhering to agreed dispute resolution procedures. SIPTU has not been afforded any opportunity by Dublin Bus management to address the proposals and to protect employment conditions for bus drivers.

SIPTU bus drivers, and other grades of employees in Dublin Bus affected by the company’s cost cutting plans, will be participating in large numbers at the ICTU Demonstration on Saturday, February 21, 2009 at 2.00pm in Parnell Square, Dublin.

OhNoYouDidn't

Serenity Now! wrote: »

LOL! It has sucked exchequer funding for even longer. No wonder this alleged profit of yours is for the pointing :rolleyes:

You can have all the smugness you like, but Dublin Bus runs at a profit and is cutting services and laying off staff.

I object to that.

ixoy

Am I to understand that they may accept job cuts and changes if they're allowed to discuss them with management?

The Corinthian

bobbyjoe wrote: »

http://www.siptu.ie/PressRoom/NewsReleases/2009/Name,10624,en.html

Thank you, but this is not what I asked. I asked to read what the union demands are.

Presently we have meanmachine3 claiming that part of what this dispute is over is reform of the timetables. I would like to confirm that this is indeed the case and what is meant by this.

ongarite

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You can have all the smugness you like, but Dublin Bus runs at a profit and is cutting services and laying off staff.

I object to that.

I object to your stating of fact that Dublin Bus is making a profit. It made €4.7M profit in 07, lost €10M in 08 and forecasts loss of 31M in 09.
Failing numbers of passengers in 08 and more in 09 are leading to unsustainable losses and cuts are needed.

RTE wrote:

In 2007, the company made a profit of almost €5m, but in 2008 it lost €10m and those losses are projected to rise to more than €30m this year.

Irish Times wrote:

Last month Dublin Bus announced it was to make 290 staff redundant and reduce its fleet by 120 buses. The company said it will lose €31 million this year, following a €10 million loss in 2008, unless it makes the cuts.

OhNoYouDidn't

The Corinthian wrote: »

Thank you, but this is not what I asked. I asked to read what the union demands are.

Presently we have meanmachine3 claiming that part of what this dispute is over is reform of the timetables. I would like to confirm that this is indeed the case and what is meant by this.

How much clearer do you want it?

There is a mechanism in place for changes to work practices to be announced and discussed within Dublin Bus.

Management have ignored it and cut staff and services without the required consultation.

Do you need this in gold leaf print or something?

bill_ashmount

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You can have all the smugness you like, but Dublin Bus runs at a profit and is cutting services and laying off staff.

I object to that.

I thought the government susidises Dublin bus?

The Corinthian

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

How much clearer do you want it?

It's clear but is irrelevant to my query.

There is a mechanism in place for changes to work practices to be announced and discussed within Dublin Bus.

It has been claimed that part of what this dispute is over is reform of the timetables and that this reform would benefit the consumer. I am looking for confirmation on this. The article cited says absolutely nothing that would do this or any other detail of the union's demands.

Of the claim I presently have nothing more than meanmachine3's word on it. I can keep an open mind to this, but ultimately I cannot take his word on it alone. After all, we accepted the "we have your best interests at heart" line from our politicians and see where that got us.

Management have ignored it and cut staff and services without the required consultation.

I'm not denying that management may have ignored this process and chosen to cut staff and services without consultation. But, again, that is not what I asked.

Do you need this in gold leaf print or something?

For someone who does not seem to have bothered understanding what I asked in the first place, your response is ironic to say the least.

maggy_thatcher

Does anybody know will Dublin Bus be refunding ticket holders for their lack of service? I have an annual ticket - if these strikes go ahead surely they should be refunding me 1/365th of the cost (€2.68) of the ticket per day that they aren't operating? For monthly ticket holders it should be €3.16 for strike days in March, and €3.50 for the one in February.

I think the chances of that happening though are about equivalent to finding Obama in bed with Osama

thebman

bill_ashmount wrote: »

I thought the government susidises Dublin bus?

It does, subtract the subsidy and they are loss making although they cover loss makin routes which is the purpose of the subsidy I guess.

Given Dublin Bus has gone out of its way to kill off competition, anything the company or its employees say can't be believed.

The company for killing off and engaging in questionable practices while taking a subsidy from the state to do so.

The Employees for supporting it and striking and trying to blackmail the country at a time when it can't afford to be blackmailed or to continue supporting them with the same level of subsidy.

Why the hell should we believe a word either side says? Both are just looking out for themselves and don't give a crap about the public.

We should privatise it where possible with a percentage of routes for each company needing to take on some unprofitable routes assigned by the government. It can run privatised (and run better privatised)so why have it in public ownership.

Someone seemed to suggest that privatised buses in Britain didn't work out. I fail to see how their system is a failure. I was in Scotland last year and the buses were clean, cheap and ran like clockwork.

maggy_thatcher

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Does anybody know will Dublin Bus be refunding ticket holders for their lack of service? I have an annual ticket - if these strikes go ahead surely they should be refunding me 1/365th of the cost (€2.68) of the ticket per day that they aren't operating? For monthly ticket holders it should be €3.16 for strike days in March, and €3.50 for the one in February.

Okay - just found in the terms and conditions:

Dublin_Bus wrote:

5. Claims for refunds or extensions in the case of reduced or depleted services will not be entertained.

In other words "we reserve the right to take your money and give you nothing to show for it." Sounds about right for a semi-state body. If the airlines did that there would be hell to pay!

Serenity Now!

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You can have all the smugness you like, but Dublin Bus runs at a profit and is cutting services and laying off staff.

I object to that.

"Object" away in any melodramatic fashion you wish. I'm not being even slightly smug, fella.
Nothing will change the fact that these wonderful profits you keep mentioning are SUBSIDISED by the Exchequer in this country and by the EU. If you believe that this signifies success of the organisation then thats your problem, not mine.

djpbarry

meanmachine3 wrote: »

most bus drivers are not on the 60,70k alot of you presume we are on.

Please don’t insult our intelligence; anyone who thinks a bus driver is earning up to €70k pre annum is an idiot.

AlekSmart

If you were going to strike out of concern for every improvement required to run a transport system to the standards of other western European countries, you would have been on the pickets for some decades by now.

Dublin Bus' regular daytime timetables are a woeful service (particularly compared to what they should be) and have been as long as I can remember. This is why I don't use them.

The reality behind Serenity Now`s post is that these WESTERN European countries continue to fund their public transport systems to a level far beyond what Bus Atha Cliath recieves,and that`s restricting the comparison to ROAD based PT..

This concept of regarding Public Transport as an integral part of the Social Fabric has provided those such as SerenityNow with a raft of entities to which we can be compared with.
Even the current flavour of the month,Deloitte, only managed to highlight the VAST difference in Central Subvention between Dublin and the "Rest of Europe".

But,forget Western Europe for a moment and look East....take a wander around the major Cities of the mysterions Iron Curtain cities where one will find cheap,reliable,efficient Public Transport services operating through and around Cities which most certainly are nowhere as "Cosmopolitian" as Dublin thought it was.

I spent a couple of hours with one of my soon to be redundant colleagues recently,a young man from Poland.

He started in Bus Atha Cliath in mid 2008 and he spoke of his amazement at how poorly structured and regarded the Public Bus Service was in Dublin compared to his home town in Poland.
It appears he had come to Dublin Bus expecting a Capital Citys Bus Service to be just that,an Integral Service operating as part of the City itself.

His view now,however was that we were little more than the Emperor strutting about in his new clothes.....the actuality is that we are naked,with only a big fleet of nearly new gaily painted Buses running haphazardly around the place in a self destructive parody of a SIM City scenario.
He finally described his view of us not being a "Service" at all but instead "something else"...as he said that he shrugged his shoulders heavily because his vocabulary could not stretch to describing what his company actually represented in his thinking.

Is there somewhere where we can read what the union demands are? Both to confirm and clear up the confusion here.

In reality there are NO demands.
The Employees position is that there are currently extant agreements in place which govern the manner in which their employment is contracted.
Many of these agreements came about as a direct result of the involvement of the State Labour Court Conciliation services and are thus far regarded as legally binding on BOTH parties to the original agreement.

The issue now centres around what appears to be the Company`s decision to repudiate ALL existing negoitated agreements covering the terms and conditions of it`s employee`s.

The so called "Reform" of Timetables is,according to those which I have seen,nothing of the sort.

What has been presented in a flurry of timetabling activity are bills which attempt to maintain a semblance of "Normality" whilst in actuality depending on every other aspect of the Citys life to remain in sync to facilitate their smooth operation.
This will not happen.

Instead when the usual traffic and administrative problems occur,the present plan B backup arrangements will no longer be in place,leading to a serious reduction in reliability and the downward spiral will thus continue.

This will,in turn, send more people in search of a private car,whose operating cost`s co-incidentally are rising yet again thus securing more revenue for the cash-strapped State..so much for Mr Dempsey`s Green Credentials.

Whilst the Bus Driving grade is to the forefront,it should be remembered that there are many other grades involved in this "Survival" plan.
Craftworkers,Cleaners,Shunters,Clerical and Supervisory grades are ALL involved here with wide ranging changes to work practices and attendance times across the board,often with very little obvious benefit.

One example could be the introduction of a Central Bus Control facility.
This appears to be the result of a Management fact-finding visit to Germany or such like and gazing in awe at how Hans or Josef controlled their routes.
Now,oddly enough,it appears that in SOME German cities,the principle of Central Bus Control is now being diluted somewhat as it has been proving somewhat LESS than efficient in dealing with the more dislocated type of service which,it could be said,is the Dublin norm.

However,this style of management has been around before in many differing guises in Ireland and with the same results....one could speak of Van Hool McArdle,Bombardier/GAC Ireland for examples in Transport Engineering.

Not for the first time is Maggy_Thatcher correct.

Yes - times are hard, so lay-offs are inevitible. These redundancies that the bus companies are using is a last-in first-out policy which people think is unfair for some bizarre reason. Mr. Bus driver, how do you propose cutting the cost of the bus network so that it can operate in a zero-sum solution? "Voluntary" redundancies are very expensive (only those approaching retirement will take it, which means substantial pay-outs), meaning many more lay-offs would be needed to cover it - resulting in an even worse service!

Just as the real Baroness T`s policies are actually to the fore in what has lead us to this place,we need to recognize the plain truth in what Maggy_Thatchers post describes.

The expense of "Voluntary" redundancy in the current Bus Atha Cliath situation is accepted,which is why the Trades Union delegation raised the issue of funding with the Minister.
However the cost issue has other aspects to it and direct comparisons are not at all helpful nor do they promote any understanding of the reality.

For the most part the 160 new staff are all young and eager to embark on a career in Public Transport.
Most of them being under 30,and many from other countries have a somewhat different outlook on how they live their life.

Both CIE companies are awash with staff at all grades (Management Included) who are simply washed up and tired out,continuing to work only because they have to.
Many of these people have given long years of service and have amassed incredible stats such as 30 years Bus Driving WITHOUT accident or who have never been out sick (!!)

Now under current redundancy laws,such employees would be expensive to offload,but from my conversations with such men the actual amount of lump sum needed to secure their departure would be relatively small especially IF the State were to support it through inventive use of already extisting programmes.

There is already some interesting potential precedence being tested as some word is coming through of Employees being offered a buy-out based upon the REMAINING years of their service rather than the actual long-service accrued.

The essential point however remains,and that is the issue of Negotiation and whether or not it can be commenced.
With the Minister apparently being advised by a VERY small and highly opinionated group of Senior Civil Servants in a somewhat narrow focused band then I am pessimistic.

The actual role of CIE management is of secondary importance in this scenario,as they will do what the Minister directs them to.

However with a Government now functioning as a collection of individuals each trying to vainly appear in charge of their brief then I fear disaster is imminient. :cool:

OhNoYouDidn't

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

In other words "we reserve the right to take your money and give you nothing to show for it." Sounds about right for a semi-state body. If the airlines did that there would be hell to pay!

Unlike the darlings of the neo-liberal right, Ryanair, whose customer service and refund policy is well renowned....

More tosh from the voodoo gang

OhNoYouDidn't

ongarite wrote: »

I object to your stating of fact that Dublin Bus is making a profit. It made €4.7M profit in 07, lost €10M in 08 and forecasts loss of 31M in 09.
Failing numbers of passengers in 08 and more in 09 are leading to unsustainable losses and cuts are needed.

You are correct. Dublin bus made a profit for 20 years up until 2007.

Like pretty much every company, but very few are cutting back services, most are trying to attract and retain customers.

The Corinthian

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Unlike the darlings of the neo-liberal right, Ryanair, whose customer service and refund policy is well renowned....

Is everything a left versus right thing with you?

maggy_thatcher

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Unlike the darlings of the neo-liberal right, Ryanair, whose customer service and refund policy is well renowned....

More tosh from the voodoo gang

I think you'd find that if Ryanair didn't fly, you'd at least be guaranteed your money back. That's all I was asking for - nothing punitive, just sorry we didn't operate, here's the money you paid for your ticket back.

Dyr

tbh as a trade union member and someone who's used dublin bus since the 80's i have to say ive sadly no sympathy for the drivers. They are authors of their own misfortune, having held joe public to ransom once too often, joe public abandoned public transport for good..yis bit yer own nose off to spite yisser faces.

Hopefully there'll now be a root and branch shake up in our transport system right up to sacking the carpet baggers on the various boards of directors.

Serenity Now!

AlekSmart wrote: »

Both CIE companies are awash with staff at all grades (Management Included) who are simply washed up and tired out,continuing to work only because they have to

No! The horror! :eek::rolleyes:

AlekSmart

No! The horror!

Well I suppose it can be a horror to some...but then again the I suppose the same could be said of the current Government Front Bench too..... ? :eek:

My original point,perhaps made in a manner too obtuse for some,is that the financial hit taken now on offering a redundancy package to those washed-out demoralized staff may not be quite as bad when off-set against the retention of the newer,sleeker,younger gt model motivated drivers,who incidentally are on a different set of terms and conditions to those crusty old washed out types so detested by many (However as the health warnings paraphrase: Prolonged exposure to Public Service Provision may cause increased levels of crustiness and bile)

If we can pay a somewhat suspect Financial Regulator some €600,000 plus pension upon his early departure then we can at least consider an application or two from some Busdrivers.....:p

stepbar

djpbarry wrote: »

Please don’t insult our intelligence; anyone who thinks a bus driver is earning up to €70k pre annum is an idiot.

Here's news for you..... I saw the P60 of one bus driver who was earning nearly 60k. Granted it was the year ended '07, but with O/T a bus driver can get fairly close to 60k if he / she really wanted to work O/T (and was lucky to get enough of it).

AlekSmart

Here's news for you..... I saw the P60 of one bus driver who was earning nearly 60k.

I`m not sure if it`s news really as back in 2007 the availability of overtime and the ability of staff to do it was at a far higher level than today,or far that matter 2008.

I have been advised by Union sources that in relation to the 48 Hr Working Time Directive the Company did a thorough breakdown of its wage costs and came up with some interesting statistics.

From memory,It appears that over 50% of platform staff do NO overtime....Not a minute,other than involuntary ie: traffic disruption or late breaks.
It seems that some 10% of the staff do 75% of the overtime.

I have found that this type of generalization can be applied right across the working spectrum with each job having it`s fair share of "hungers mothers" who do not subscribe to "work-life balance" theories.

It`s like the annual "Garda earns 5,000 a week in overtime payments" Shock Horror headlines in the Herald which when read closely refers usually to some once occurring anomaly presented to the masses as representative of the entire force.

It should also be noted that for retirement Lump Sum or redundancy purposes the company rely on Basic Wage to do the calculations.

givyjoe81

grahamo wrote: »

Oh! Thats ok then. As long as its not personal. :rolleyes:

I think they will have a lot of support in Dublin. Maybe the Dublin 4 people and a few self employed 'I'm all right Jack' types may be a bit put out but the ordinary dub will be behind them

Im an ordinary dub, my dad's, sorry da's an ordinary dub and wouldnt p1ss on them if they were on fire... Seriously though, they have no support from me or anyone I have spoken to, and im just a commoner. I wont be put out and I still dont support it, I bought my first car to save me from the insanity of Dublin Bus the drivers which ARE a huge part of the problem, (people not using the service) for years drivers down my way have been taking the p1ss with our service, not just management.

Think of this ok, what about the person in march who SIMPLY HAS TO GET TO WORK, for a company say perhaps that is in financial troble itself, what do you think such company would say to employees who say well we cant get to work cos of the buses, i think many people will try and avail of taxi's meaning they will be practically be working for free for the day.

givyjoe81

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Unlike the darlings of the neo-liberal right, Ryanair, whose customer service and refund policy is well renowned....

More tosh from the voodoo gang

Hmmm, when did Ryaniar last go on strike.. hmmmm let me seee.... Now there's an idea, Ryanair take over from Dublin bus.